[opensuse-factory] What is the recommended procedure for suspending ?
Hi there, I made my experiments with suspending using the s2ram command. Now, the SDB says s2ram was deprecated: http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Suspend_to_RAM s2ram is part of the suspend package. Can I now safely remove the suspend package? What is now the recommended way for suspending with kernel 3.9.x? What is the recommended command to suspend from the command line? Doesn´t pm-utils depend on the suspend package? Thanx Malte -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 07/06/13 10:50, Malte Gell escribió:
Hi there,
I made my experiments with suspending using the s2ram command. Now, the SDB says s2ram was deprecated:
http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Suspend_to_RAM
s2ram is part of the suspend package. Can I now safely remove the suspend package?
In most cases, you can remove both pm-utils and suspend
What is now the recommended way for suspending with kernel 3.9.x? What is the recommended command to suspend from the command line?
In the other thread Andrey gave the answer systemctl suspend (or hibernate or hybrid-sleep)
Doesn´t pm-utils depend on the suspend package?
If it is using the s2ram or s2disk yes, otherwise no. But see the message in the page "Note that the s2ram whitelist described here is deprecated and no longer maintained. Do not send additional machines details to the maintainers. Instead, use a kernel with KMS drivers where suspend should just work. If it doesn't, file a bug against the Linux kernel." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.06.2013 18:13, schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:
In most cases, you can remove both pm-utils and suspend
Ok.
What is now the recommended way for suspending with kernel 3.9.x? What is the recommended command to suspend from the command line?
In the other thread Andrey gave the answer
systemctl suspend (or hibernate or hybrid-sleep)
When I delete pm-utils and suspend, is KDE able to automatically use systemctl? Does the system have a priority what to use, when both, pn-utils/suspend and systemctl is available? Thanx Malte -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 07/06/13 13:05, Malte Gell escribió:
Am 07.06.2013 18:13, schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:
In most cases, you can remove both pm-utils and suspend
Ok.
What is now the recommended way for suspending with kernel 3.9.x? What is the recommended command to suspend from the command line?
In the other thread Andrey gave the answer
systemctl suspend (or hibernate or hybrid-sleep)
When I delete pm-utils and suspend, is KDE able to automatically use systemctl?
You are confused, but to make the answer clear YES, KDE is able to suspend/hiberate with systemd. (so does GNOME, now XFCE also) Does the system have a priority what to use, when both,
pn-utils/suspend and systemctl is available?
Here is when I will explain the confusion: - if pm-utils is not installed, systemd will do its own thing. - Desktop environments do not use systemctl, they either suspend/hibernate via upower or by talking to systemd-logind via DBUS. "systemctl" is a human interface for you the system administrator, not a programming interface..large programs or frameworks should not use it at all. that being said, there is buggy/crazy software like YAST that do it anyway though. (this is wrong..wrong... wrooong and kittens will die in the future unless it gets fixed) All non-trivial programs must communicate with systemd using the DBUS interfaces, no exceptions ;P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.06.2013 20:49, schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:
Does the system have a priority what to use, when both,
pn-utils/suspend and systemctl is available?
Here is when I will explain the confusion:
- if pm-utils is not installed, systemd will do its own thing.
Ok, so I can safely remove pm-utils. Can I delete suspend as well? When removing suspend it breaks dependencies with plymouth. I suppose after removing suspend I won´t have the bootsplash any more? If systemd handles the power stuff, I wonder why openSUSE 12.3 still comes with suspend and pm-utils packages... Thanx Malte -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 09.06.2013 13:04, schrieb Malte Gell:
If systemd handles the power stuff, I wonder why openSUSE 12.3 still comes with suspend and pm-utils packages...
because the built-in support in the kernel is very limited. So for anything advanced (compression, encryption, multithreaded hibernate) you need suspend. People telling to remove the suspend package obviously don't really use hibernation in everyday work. They are just blindly repeating the ridiculous claims of the systemd-crowd. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 13:51, Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@...> wrote:
Am 09.06.2013 13:04, schrieb Malte Gell:
If systemd handles the power stuff, I wonder why openSUSE 12.3 still comes with suspend and pm-utils packages...
because the built-in support in the kernel is very limited. So for anything advanced (compression, encryption, multithreaded hibernate) you need suspend.
People telling to remove the suspend package obviously don't really use hibernation in everyday work. They are just blindly repeating the ridiculous claims of the systemd-crowd.
+1 Sadly too true. When one does invest the time to look at the code that is "systemd-suspend" in systemd-195 from OSS 12.3, you will find that it only includes a subset of "pm-utils", and none of the code needed to replace "suspend". There are still cases where pm-utils is NEEDED in OSS 12.3 to get suspend and or hibernate working at all. I do fore-see a reduction in the number of cases where pm-utils will be NEEDED, but the integration of the "suspend" functionality (esp multithreaded hibernate, compression, encryption) is a long way out there. Not likely in the OSS 13.x or even 14.x cylce. ATM the systemd-crowd hype themself to god-like status and forget the most common reality: older hardware ( 5yo+ ) For me, 12.3 is the first release where suspend and hibernate worked out of the box, no config needed, even on older hardware. On my regular Desktop, a Nettop w/ Atom330 and ION graphics, I do not need pm-utils anymore, but they are nicer to use in scripts than the alternatives atm. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 09.06.2013 14:23, schrieb Yamaban:
I do fore-see a reduction in the number of cases where pm-utils will be NEEDED, but the integration of the "suspend" functionality (esp multithreaded hibernate, compression, encryption) is a long way out there. Not likely in the OSS 13.x or even 14.x cylce.
I can only say with suspend my machine does not suspend properly, it has issues after resuming. With systemd it works flawlessly. What do you mean with encryption? I have /home on an encrypted partition and suspending with systemd works fine, at least I did not see and problems, resuming worked fine. Using suspend / s2ram my Acer laptop does not resume properly... Malte -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 14:36, Malte Gell <malte.gell@...> wrote:
Am 09.06.2013 14:23, schrieb Yamaban:
I do fore-see a reduction in the number of cases where pm-utils will be NEEDED, but the integration of the "suspend" functionality (esp multithreaded hibernate, compression, encryption) is a long way out there. Not likely in the OSS 13.x or even 14.x cylce.
I can only say with suspend my machine does not suspend properly, it has issues after resuming. With systemd it works flawlessly.
What do you mean with encryption? I have /home on an encrypted partition and suspending with systemd works fine, at least I did not see and problems, resuming worked fine. Using suspend / s2ram my Acer laptop does not resume properly...
The mentioned compression and encryption are for "hibernate" state. The hibernate-resume-file (most times stored in the swap-partion) can be compressed and / or encrypted with a extra pass-phrase. Most times s2ram/s2disk/s2hybrid is needed, is on older and / or buggy hardware, where no in kernel support is available. So, I can only guess, your Acer laptop is less than 5 year old, has in linux kernel support for suspend and hibernate, or even works on uefi hardware. If you look at the README file from the suspend package, you can see that using s2ram/s2disk/s2hybrid is NOT for such hardware. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 09.06.2013 15:35, schrieb Yamaban:
The mentioned compression and encryption are for "hibernate" state. The hibernate-resume-file (most times stored in the swap-partion) can be compressed and / or encrypted with a extra pass-phrase.
Ah, okay. I think hibernating without encryption might leave data on the swap space? But I use suspend more often anyway.
Most times s2ram/s2disk/s2hybrid is needed, is on older and / or buggy hardware, where no in kernel support is available.
So, I can only guess, your Acer laptop is less than 5 year old, has in linux kernel support for suspend and hibernate, or even works on uefi hardware.
It´s an Acer 7736G, roughly from 2010, no Uefi.
If you look at the README file from the suspend package, you can see that using s2ram/s2disk/s2hybrid is NOT for such hardware.
Acutally, my Acer is not in the s2ram database. When using s2ram -i I got "not in database" or similar. As a conclusion I could say only older machines need suspend, newer machines work better with systemd? As I said, with suspend / s2ram I can´t resume properly, after removin it, suspend works just fine... Thanx Malte -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-09 15:59, Malte Gell wrote:
Am 09.06.2013 15:35, schrieb Yamaban:
The mentioned compression and encryption are for "hibernate" state. The hibernate-resume-file (most times stored in the swap-partion) can be compressed and / or encrypted with a extra pass-phrase.
Ah, okay. I think hibernating without encryption might leave data on the swap space? But I use suspend more often anyway.
If you hibernate your laptop and it is stolen in that state, the thieves have access to all your data. Even if your partitions are encrypted, they can read/write to them, as your session is active and the partition mounted. If the can not activate your system, they can remove the hardisk while unpowered, clone it, and read your entire memory which is stored in swap. Your opened documents can be in there. They might, perhaps, guess or even read your password Thus swap is encrypted too so to avid that posibility. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG0l/gACgkQIvFNjefEBxr5kwCgp5oJ3pHSscTHAgThb08Oqj8v +P0AoKDzfVXU0BJ6lTHPxnwlOMBOKbkt =8cZz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 09/06/13 10:58, Carlos E. R. escribió:
Thus swap is encrypted too so to avid that posibility.
According to google, hibernate with encrypted swap works just fine with dracut and systemd, no "suspend" or pm-utils packages needed or anything else. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 22:34, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@...> wrote:
El 09/06/13 10:58, Carlos E. R. escribió:
Thus swap is encrypted too so to avid that posibility.
According to google, hibernate with encrypted swap works just fine with dracut and systemd, no "suspend" or pm-utils packages needed or anything else.
But ONLY if the machine does not need anything NOT supported by the kernel, the moment your machine needs any help beyond kernel internal, your claim is false. And please, let the wind-mills alone. You are not Don Quixote. Summary: Nothing beyond kernel needed: systemd-suspend alone works. Anthing else: try and error, or 'simply' use pm-utils + suspend. - Yamaban.
El dom 09 jun 2013 16:59:12 CLT, Yamaban escribió:
But ONLY if the machine does not need anything NOT supported by the kernel, the moment your machine needs any help beyond kernel internal, your claim is false.
If there are problems with hardware, it is the kernel that has to be modified/fixed. Nothing to do at all with systemd. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-09 23:05, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El dom 09 jun 2013 16:59:12 CLT, Yamaban escribió:
But ONLY if the machine does not need anything NOT supported by the kernel, the moment your machine needs any help beyond kernel internal, your claim is false.
If there are problems with hardware, it is the kernel that has to be modified/fixed.
And that may take months or years. Meanwhile, use pm-utils tricks ;-)
Nothing to do at all with systemd.
No, right, but systemd uses only the kernel, and it contains no hackable parts like pm-utils... so that's a systemd problem :-p - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG07v0ACgkQIvFNjefEBxoCywCfYkSR5x1oHIn35MrmCifjCyLY DMgAoKzT63GnefJ2WB+39vdUuIPoUG3P =q0zp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 09/06/13 17:09, Carlos E. R. escribió:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2013-06-09 23:05, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El dom 09 jun 2013 16:59:12 CLT, Yamaban escribió:
But ONLY if the machine does not need anything NOT supported by the kernel, the moment your machine needs any help beyond kernel internal, your claim is false.
If there are problems with hardware, it is the kernel that has to be modified/fixed.
And that may take months or years. Meanwhile, use pm-utils tricks ;-)
This is something you have to complain to kernel developers then.
No, right, but systemd uses only the kernel, and it contains no hackable parts like pm-utils... so that's a systemd problem :-p
Exactly as intented, to avoid complexity and people trying to fix kernel issues in userspace, effectively swapping problems under the rug. In this particular case, pretty much everything you see as a limitation was intentionally made that way by design. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-09 23:21, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 09/06/13 17:09, Carlos E. R. escribió:
And that may take months or years. Meanwhile, use pm-utils tricks ;-)
This is something you have to complain to kernel developers then.
I'm sure they have enough to do without me pushing more work to them. Why should I, when pm-utils has it done?
In this particular case, pretty much everything you see as a limitation was intentionally made that way by design.
Whatever, but the purpose of software is to help users, not the other way round. No, developers are not to be considered "users" >:-p Whatever you do, it has to work for me. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG085QACgkQIvFNjefEBxrsdQCghD+lGjyNGUF7NQzk1aAKBOjm CJwAn36mGOBk5sGiC7VJuqHMsnuX31MV =CsrL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 09/06/13 17:28, Carlos E. R. escribió:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2013-06-09 23:21, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 09/06/13 17:09, Carlos E. R. escribió:
And that may take months or years. Meanwhile, use pm-utils tricks ;-)
This is something you have to complain to kernel developers then.
I'm sure they have enough to do without me pushing more work to them. Why should I, when pm-utils has it done?
Why should I buy an Icore7 processor when a 386 powers up just fine ?
Whatever, but the purpose of software is to help users, not the other way round. No, developers are not to be considered "users" >:-p
It is designed to help users of course, not supporting hacks forces people to fix the problems at the root cause. ;P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-09 23:51, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 09/06/13 17:28, Carlos E. R. escribió:
On 2013-06-09 23:21, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 09/06/13 17:09, Carlos E. R. escribió:
And that may take months or years. Meanwhile, use pm-utils tricks ;-)
This is something you have to complain to kernel developers then.
I'm sure they have enough to do without me pushing more work to them. Why should I, when pm-utils has it done?
Why should I buy an Icore7 processor when a 386 powers up just fine ?
Actually, there are better chances of having an old computer fully supported by the kernel than a brand new one.
Whatever, but the purpose of software is to help users, not the other way round. No, developers are not to be considered "users"
:-p
It is designed to help users of course, not supporting hacks forces people to fix the problems at the root cause. ;P
Other fellow programmers of yours have provided those hacks for us. You should show consideration to them. Perhaps next time we have a problem with the kernel not supporting our new hardware, you will rush to support it on the kernel and not have us waiting, so that systemd hibernation works properly on our new gadget from the day openSUSE is released. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG0/08ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrYRgCfZvWGHVrjECPA9WuEmPZbxqv/ c+EAoJp2fzPNJnA83yv4oZr8US8qU5F+ =nHC/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-09 23:51, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 09/06/13 17:28, Carlos E. R. escribió:
Why should I buy an Icore7 processor when a 386 powers up just fine ?
What about this:
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 1 root 20 0 49096 6412 2060 R 99,3 0,1 30:33.40 systemd 309 root 20 0 332m 26m 24m S 31,9 0,3 11:18.56 systemd-journal
Core 0: +72.0°C (high = +74.0°C, crit = +100.0°C) Core 1: +60.0°C (high = +74.0°C, crit = +100.0°C) Core 2: +69.0°C (high = +74.0°C, crit = +100.0°C) Core 3: +66.0°C (high = +74.0°C, crit = +100.0°C) fan1: 2202 RPM It is warming up my computer and it is not a 386. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG1AYYACgkQIvFNjefEBxo8MACfe4tp0WJZUUVajuT0pPazE4v6 ODMAniC8spDffHcaAD1viIvFWu/xPK2n =2GLh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> [2013-06-09 23:21]:
El 09/06/13 17:09, Carlos E. R. escribió:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2013-06-09 23:05, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El dom 09 jun 2013 16:59:12 CLT, Yamaban escribió:
But ONLY if the machine does not need anything NOT supported by the kernel, the moment your machine needs any help beyond kernel internal, your claim is false.
If there are problems with hardware, it is the kernel that has to be modified/fixed.
And that may take months or years. Meanwhile, use pm-utils tricks ;-)
This is something you have to complain to kernel developers then.
No, right, but systemd uses only the kernel, and it contains no hackable parts like pm-utils... so that's a systemd problem :-p
Exactly as intented, to avoid complexity and people trying to fix kernel issues in userspace, effectively swapping problems under the rug.
In this particular case, pretty much everything you see as a limitation was intentionally made that way by design.
We all know that fixes at the kernel level do not happen instantaneously and in case of obscure enough hardware they may not at all. Meanwhile users are caught in the middle and have to deal with broken functionality. This attitude of intentionally screwing over end-users seems to be pervasive among systemd developers who act as if they're still a bunch of teenagers working on their hobby project out of their Mom's basement. This attitude is not only unprofessional but damaging our product and diametrically opposed to the purpose of openSUSE, namely creating a stable and working Linux distribution for our users. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-10 00:10, Guido Berhoerster wrote:
* Cristian Rodríguez <> [2013-06-09 23:21]:
El 09/06/13 17:09, Carlos E. R. escribió:
We all know that fixes at the kernel level do not happen instantaneously and in case of obscure enough hardware they may not at all. Meanwhile users are caught in the middle and have to deal with broken functionality. This attitude of intentionally screwing over end-users seems to be pervasive among systemd developers who act as if they're still a bunch of teenagers working on their hobby project out of their Mom's basement. This attitude is not only unprofessional but damaging our product and diametrically opposed to the purpose of openSUSE, namely creating a stable and working Linux distribution for our users.
Absolutely. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG0/mQACgkQIvFNjefEBxppUwCffuBIPwdrBB8OPYPb1YcgKjIf /l0AoM8AcuQ4+m7I0JIx/CbTT5dKNxRg =mCIN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 09/06/13 18:10, Guido Berhoerster escribió:
This attitude of intentionally screwing over end-users seems to be pervasive among systemd developers who act as if they're still a bunch of teenagers working on their hobby project out of their Mom's basement. This attitude is not only unprofessional but damaging our product and diametrically opposed to the purpose of openSUSE, namely creating a stable and working Linux distribution for our users.
This kind of comment usually comes from people that either do not have a clue or that have never tried to contribute anything to systemd, In this case unfortunately both. Sad, I thought you knew better than spreading FUD and misinformation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 10.06.2013 00:15, schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:
El 09/06/13 18:10, Guido Berhoerster escribió:
This attitude of intentionally screwing over end-users seems to be pervasive among systemd developers who act as if they're still a bunch of teenagers working on their hobby project out of their Mom's basement. This attitude is not only unprofessional but damaging our product and diametrically opposed to the purpose of openSUSE, namely creating a stable and working Linux distribution for our users.
This kind of comment usually comes from people that either do not have a clue or that have never tried to contribute anything to systemd, In this case unfortunately both.
Guys, please limit yourself to technical arguments. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 09/06/13 18:10, Guido Berhoerster escribió: This attitude is not only unprofessional but
damaging our product and diametrically opposed to the purpose of openSUSE, namely creating a stable and working Linux distribution for our users.
Apparently this is not the opinion of multi million dollars corporations such as intel and redhat that continue to supply an steadily increasing amount of developing to power to systemd, neither is the opinion of all distributions that already switched to systemd or are planning to do so in the near future. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/09/2013 05:21 PM, Cristian Rodríguez pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
El 09/06/13 17:09, Carlos E. R. escribió:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2013-06-09 23:05, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El dom 09 jun 2013 16:59:12 CLT, Yamaban escribió:
But ONLY if the machine does not need anything NOT supported by the kernel, the moment your machine needs any help beyond kernel internal, your claim is false.
If there are problems with hardware, it is the kernel that has to be modified/fixed.
And that may take months or years. Meanwhile, use pm-utils tricks ;-)
This is something you have to complain to kernel developers then.
No, right, but systemd uses only the kernel, and it contains no hackable parts like pm-utils... so that's a systemd problem :-p
Exactly as intented, to avoid complexity and people trying to fix kernel issues in userspace, effectively swapping problems under the rug.
In this particular case, pretty much everything you see as a limitation was intentionally made that way by design.
Ah, the old "It's not a bug, it's a feature." :-) -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 09/06/13 07:51, Stefan Seyfried escribió:
Am 09.06.2013 13:04, schrieb Malte Gell:
If systemd handles the power stuff, I wonder why openSUSE 12.3 still comes with suspend and pm-utils packages...
because the built-in support in the kernel is very limited. So for anything advanced (compression, encryption, multithreaded hibernate) you need suspend.
People telling to remove the suspend package obviously don't really use hibernation in everyday work. They are just blindly repeating the ridiculous claims of the systemd-crowd.
There is nothing ridiculous about for the simple reason that nobody has ever claimed that systemd-suspend supports anything other than what the in the kernel suspend/hibernate provides and will not probably support anything else. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-09 21:26, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 09/06/13 07:51, Stefan Seyfried escribió:
There is nothing ridiculous about for the simple reason that nobody has ever claimed that systemd-suspend supports anything other than what the in the kernel suspend/hibernate provides and will not probably support anything else.
In that case the hibernation/suspend implementation in systemd can not replace pm-utils implementation as default. No way. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG02foACgkQIvFNjefEBxow/QCfSEBq//i3ipbbXNJFhpzN8iVx WNgAn3jjioAJwb25t6P1YYOYkaTUZd1P =nrVz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 В Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:39:38 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> пишет:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2013-06-09 21:26, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 09/06/13 07:51, Stefan Seyfried escribió:
There is nothing ridiculous about for the simple reason that nobody has ever claimed that systemd-suspend supports anything other than what the in the kernel suspend/hibernate provides and will not probably support anything else.
In that case the hibernation/suspend implementation in systemd can not replace pm-utils implementation as default. No way.
Do we have documented cases when removing pm-utils breaks suspend/hibernation? Did someone file bug reports for them? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlG1P6kACgkQR6LMutpd94w/pACgkTJZAQcyDfr5m+Qm5CLVFXpt WXwAoMUfyXWHrDVO+OzXxdYJaUhcsOa9 =4OXO -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-10 04:53, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:
В Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:39:38 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <> пишет:
Do we have documented cases when removing pm-utils breaks suspend/hibernation? Did someone file bug reports for them?
You have my posts here documenting how removing suspend breaks hibernation in my machine, and several other tests done on request of Cristian. I you want that I write all that in a bugzilla, you will have to wait. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG1Qd4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxqkegCgjcSBZNWfHDCBkkHfiiUIWGLx YLMAoIoN4Hxa2XgK/5VLYIy6txXA2iHT =fq89 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 09.06.2013 21:26, schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:
El 09/06/13 07:51, Stefan Seyfried escribió:
Am 09.06.2013 13:04, schrieb Malte Gell:
If systemd handles the power stuff, I wonder why openSUSE 12.3 still comes with suspend and pm-utils packages...
because the built-in support in the kernel is very limited. So for anything advanced (compression, encryption, multithreaded hibernate) you need suspend.
People telling to remove the suspend package obviously don't really use hibernation in everyday work. They are just blindly repeating the ridiculous claims of the systemd-crowd.
There is nothing ridiculous about for the simple reason that nobody has ever claimed that systemd-suspend supports anything other than what the in the kernel suspend/hibernate provides and will not probably support anything else.
Cristian, you can stop the preaching now - it gets on everyone's nerve. systemd upstream might believe that suspend works on a pure kernel level, but it's pretty much common sense that that's not the case and systemd will need patches to support hacks by the admin of the machine. If that happens through the currently existant packages or something new is up to discussion, but IMO not *if* we need it. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/10/2013 01:57 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
systemd upstream might believe that suspend works on a pure kernel level,
No, but believe it *should* ;) but it's pretty much common sense that that's not the case and
systemd will need patches to support hacks by the admin of the machine.
There is support for pre/post scripts just like pm-utils, if something else is needed someone has to make a compelling case on why it should. I have tried to make such argument, did not work :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-10 07:57, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 09.06.2013 21:26, schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:
El 09/06/13 07:51, Stefan Seyfried escribió:
Cristian, you can stop the preaching now - it gets on everyone's nerve. systemd upstream might believe that suspend works on a pure kernel level, but it's pretty much common sense that that's not the case and systemd will need patches to support hacks by the admin of the machine.
If that happens through the currently existant packages or something new is up to discussion, but IMO not *if* we need it.
Thanks. This is reassuring. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG11qUACgkQIvFNjefEBxqfEwCferYuTsw+tH0FklqFMrW4iwF8 rcIAoKlVE/v6hK0Wd82uvesU986cltxd =ABaO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 09.06.2013 21:26, schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:
There is nothing ridiculous about for the simple reason that nobody has ever claimed that systemd-suspend supports anything other than what the in the kernel suspend/hibernate provides and will not probably support anything else.
But telling people to remove supend then is effectively telling them to abandon all hibernate support. At least if you want anything besides the minimal basic hibernation support that's in the kernel. Personally, if I would still be using hibernation, I would not be satisfied with that feature set. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/09/2013 01:51 PM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
because the built-in support in the kernel is very limited. So for anything advanced (compression, encryption, multithreaded hibernate) you need suspend.
To be honest, the kernel knows and does lzma image compression. Funny is that userspace doesn't count with that and won't allow to hibernate if we don't have enough swap space. Crap. (I haven't had enough time to investigate and report to the culprit yet.) The rest is true, indeed. -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/10/2013 03:53 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:
On 06/09/2013 01:51 PM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
because the built-in support in the kernel is very limited. So for anything advanced (compression, encryption, multithreaded hibernate) you need suspend.
To be honest, the kernel knows and does lzma image compression.
Funny is that userspace doesn't count with that and won't allow to hibernate if we don't have enough swap space. Crap. (I haven't had enough time to investigate and report to the culprit yet.)
Where is that documented ? I think we have to indeed fix that if possible. Compression will reduce disk IO quite a lot...the other points are encryption (encryped swap) which is known to work just fine, Multithreaded hibernate is not a deal breaker and can be just ignored. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/10/2013 10:04 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 06/10/2013 03:53 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:
On 06/09/2013 01:51 PM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
because the built-in support in the kernel is very limited. So for anything advanced (compression, encryption, multithreaded hibernate) you need suspend.
To be honest, the kernel knows and does lzma image compression.
Funny is that userspace doesn't count with that and won't allow to hibernate if we don't have enough swap space. Crap. (I haven't had enough time to investigate and report to the culprit yet.)
Where is that documented ?
What do you mean to be documented? -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/10/2013 04:17 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:
What do you mean to be documented?
I mean if it is some "toogle" to turn compression on or off there must be some sort of documentation about that.. But forget it, I just looked into the source code, compression is transparent and can be toggled off by "nocompress" kernel parameter. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 10.06.2013 10:04, schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:
On 06/10/2013 03:53 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:
To be honest, the kernel knows and does lzma image compression.
Ah, ok. That's good that the kernel suspend code gained this capability.
Funny is that userspace doesn't count with that and won't allow to hibernate if we don't have enough swap space. Crap. (I haven't had enough time to investigate and report to the culprit yet.)
Where is that documented ? I think we have to indeed fix that if possible.
Compression will reduce disk IO quite a lot...the other points are encryption (encryped swap) which is known to work just fine,
So you can switch on swap ecnryption just for hibernation? I did not know that.
Multithreaded hibernate is not a deal breaker and can be just ignored.
Well, if you only care for the newest, fastest CPUs, then that's correct. With slightly older, slower cpus multithreaded compression is very welcome. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-06-10 11:24, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Well, if you only care for the newest, fastest CPUs, then that's correct. With slightly older, slower cpus multithreaded compression is very welcome.
Last time I tried it crashed, although I have not tried recently: ## use threads for suspend? (default n) ## this hugely speeds up encryption and also compression on mulitcore machines #threads = y - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG117MACgkQIvFNjefEBxrCwQCcCmnvSbeXA89GQ3qxyFV/zNP5 oPcAoNn0fIkPhqsyc814jqzv8k7XQRxX =j28a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Andrey Borzenkov -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Guido Berhoerster -
Jiri Slaby -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Malte Gell -
Stefan Seyfried -
Stephan Kulow -
Yamaban