[opensuse-factory] Adobe flash plugin
List, I would like to ask your thoughts on how we use and offer the flash plugin. Clearly Adobe are no longer willing to support Linux as an OS. Persuant to this I propose we drop the flash plugin option entirely; by this I mean that none of our installation options should suggest flash plugin. Furthermore, I think that flash plugin should not be offered as an additional repository or installation option. Cheers the noo, Graham
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 08:11, Graham Anderson <graham@andtech.eu> wrote:
The problem with that is that a vast portion of the web relies on Flash, and I'm not talking about YouTube here. If we decide to drop Flash altogether, then we had better come up with an alternative for Flash that ensures that websites continue working. Ignoring the big ones like YouTube, there are many other sites that rely on Flash - uTest for example is a 100% Flash based site, and there are loads of others out there that simply will not work without Flash. You can say, I suppose, use Google Chrome for all Flash based websites (they roll in Flash with the browser).... will this work? Is this an acceptable alternative? If yes, then Chrome needs to be in the default install if Flash is dropped... in place of Firefox? What about standalone applications that rely on Flash? How do we deal with those? Are the open source Flash implementations "good enough" to be drop in replacements? Until the web moves beyond Flash, we are in a situation where we need to continue supporting and providing some sort of Flash support. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 08:24:57 C wrote:
That "vast" portion of the web that relies on flash also usually relies on IE6 or IE7, all of these three techs are in decline and none of them should be indirectly supported by openSUSE. <video> is available on many youtube channels now, any new vid uploaded will be available via <video>
100% flash sites should live or die on their own sword. Any argument to support them in the context of openSUSE is fundamentally flawed. Any site that is 100% flash should rely on their own proprietary tech. Flash is not an open standard and actionscript is maintained outside of accepable norms.
Just drop flash entirely, all our packaged browsers support <video> and <audio>
What about standalone applications that rely on Flash? How do we deal with those?
Let them die.
Are the open source Flash implementations "good enough" to be drop in replacements?
No, they are terrible and flash/actionscript are not open standards.
Sorry. I use the WeightWatchers members website. It uses Flash. It's a must have item. It's not optional at all. Steven -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE Linux 12.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I have,I do and, I no longer am even close to over weight but I still rely on this website. I am an openSUSE user just like you explaining the reality of the necessity of Flash for the foreseeable future. It's too early to drop Flash support. Steven -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE Linux 12.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 00:23:17 Steven Hess wrote:
I sympathise because I am not a small person and I have a nasty appetite, but I disagree that this is a reason to support the flash plugin. For as long as flash exists there will always be sites and pages that rely on using it. That alone is a poor reason to continue supporting it in it's decline. G
On Mon, 2012-04-09 at 02:51 +0200, Graham Anderson wrote:
Or are you saying my opinion is invalid since you think Flash shouldn't be included because it doesn't work? SOrry to inform you, but it does work right now... and better than some things that get included in the distro. Thus, that idea is also invalid. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 4/9/2012 10:30 AM, Roger Luedecke wrote:
Haha yeah I was thinking "Hey Graham, how about this, _you_ bring gnash up to _at least_ parity with adobe, and then offer the suggestion to abolish adobe's flash in favor of gnash, since you're the one who seems to care so much about it?" -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Quoting Graham Anderson <graham@andtech.eu>:
Sorry, but you're crossing lines here. As for the topic: Believe it or not: openSUSE is not the driver on what websites use for implementation. As an OS for users, openSUSE needs to provide what the user needs, and not the user use what openSUSE provides. This tactic would only work with a market share > 90%, where everybody blindly follows you. And Youtube is not the only website relying on Flash. The internet is bigger than that. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:
Nor is it one of our objectives.
Isn't there a large software company that works like that? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 03:36:55 Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:
Yes you are right. I'm sorry. I will apologise to Steven but that will be private. I also apologise to the list members for this branch of the thread and would hope we can be as magnanimous as Steven and focus on the technicalities of the flash plugin.
Back to the issue at hand. It's not time to drop Flash yet. It's premature to even discuss it at this point. -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE Linux 12.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Steven Hess wrote:
Yes, let's re-start this thread when usage (on websites) has dropped to a trickle. Btw, will Flash continue to work/be supported in Chrome on Linux? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Quoting Graham Anderson <graham@andtech.eu>:
In this forum: yes! We're discussing openSUSE development here. You can bring such stuff to the -offtopic mailing list. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 09:10, Graham Anderson <graham@andtech.eu> wrote:
Ummm.. what? What does IE have to do with openSUSE? We don't provide IE with openSUSE, but we DO provide Flash. Try to keep on topic.
100% flash sites should live or die on their own sword. Any argument to support them in the context of openSUSE is fundamentally flawed.
Sorry, I need Flash for my job. The website that I get contract work from is 100% Flash. Did I decide to make it Flash? No, they did. I can use the site with openSUSE and I can do my job (which actually requires Linux for about 75% of the work anyway)... take away Flash, and I can no longer do my job, or I use Windows.... Windows is not an option.
openSUSE cannot dictate the actions of anyone else.
Right... you may be able to do that, but they rest of us live in the real world where despite Adobe dropping Flash support 5 years from now, it is still VERY much an integral part of the IT world (as much as you or the rest of us may hate it).
You can go hang out with Mr. Stallman, the rest of us have to live in the real world where open standards are nice idealistic goal that we can try to work towards, but not practical. Dropping Flash in the future... sure once enough of the tech has moved away to alternatives, but now... not a good idea at all. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Fredag den 6. april 2012 09:10:15 Graham Anderson skrev:
openSUSE should directly support openSUSE - and that means making Adobe Flash easily available, however nasty and declining it is. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 06/04/12 04:53, Martin Schlander escribió:
Well, it has been usually in a pitiful state, that's nothing new.. however I think we should keep it until adobe drops security support for it, then we can let it die. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 09:10, Graham Anderson wrote:
Not true. I need flash and I need it in Firefox - not because I need it personally, but because many of the webs choose to use it. You are wrong in punishing users by removing flash from the distro: you have to remove it from the webs instead. When they stop using it, then we'll also stop using it. If you succeed in removing flash from Linux, you will be punishing me to install Windows again. :-( And it is not only youtube. I don't care about it. Even bank sites use flash for forms and data! - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+7WkACgkQIvFNjefEBxoX7gCffYjAW9zvmuQeWgCHxnMd/Pia XNEAoI55YMPt9qCt6mFX3+k8gLlY2Rg7 =T+c9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 15:19:37 Carlos E. R. wrote:
You need flash because you need it and we should use it because everyone else does. Please stop being a pedant in your replies to any issue you disagree with.
If you succeed in removing flash from Linux, you will be punishing me to install Windows again. :-(
Please by all means help yourself, im so sorry for you that the only thing stopping you from using windows is that linux also has flash...
And it is not only youtube. I don't care about it. Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!
Name one single bank in any country that requires flash.
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 15:35, Graham Anderson <graham@andtech.eu> wrote:
Why don't you stop being a pedant in your replies to any issue you disagree with. You hate Flash, yes.. fine.. but the hard reality is, it is still a requirement... for now. When the balance is tipped to move away, then yes it makes sense, but not now. It's not hard to understand that is it? By the way, there is a tool for putting in a request like this... https://features.opensuse.org/ Open a Fate, let everyone know it's there, and put it to a vote. See what happens.
A ten second web search will turn up a long list of bank websites that require Flash (in the US... Europe... Middle East...)... some provide a "low bandwidth" HTML alternative, but not all... and I found that pretty easy.. so can you. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 15:45:51 C wrote:
Hard reality is that flash is a requirement... Are you serious with that statement? Outside of animation and video I have never had a requirement for flash. Please tell me about your hard flash requirments... I'm all ears.
Oh please stop. I see a lot of home pages that might have some spinny flashy graphics, but that's always been the case. Please name one single bank that requires flash to perform actual _banking_
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 16:01, Graham Anderson <graham@andtech.eu> wrote:
.... sigh. This is getting old Graham. Yes I am serious. I really do use Flash for more than just YouTube videos. It's a sad fact of various websites... I already named one site. you want me to tell you again and again? I have external and internal (to my employer and the companies we/I contract out to) websites that require Flash. What, do you want to go and personally inspect each one? I can't link most to you because they are not public (behind VPNs).
.... no, you go and find them yourself - your demand is actually unprovable unless you have an account with the bank. As it stands, I don't feel the need to prove myself to someone who is busy attacking everyone who disagrees with his viewpoint. You raised a legitimate question, and it was explained by pretty much every single reply to you here that it is not *yet* acceptable to consider this option. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 16:12:46 C wrote:
The claim in this branch of the thread is that banking requires flash. I have nothing to prove or disprove and I have no logical need to because I have made no claims about banking and flash. If banking requires flash, please state where and why. Until this claim is backed up with verifiable who, why, where and when it's utter bullshit and should be dismissed as such.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 15:35, Graham Anderson wrote:
Please stop being a pedant in your replies to any issue you disagree with.
Please stop doing insults. Personal insults do not forward your points. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+9DEACgkQIvFNjefEBxp57wCgmAqqR49Ae61Q9RubBtraSrJG O5kAn2VEg1/K2hd0D7FraMcKFj73AfPQ =GSDq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 16:08, Graham Anderson wrote:
And you? What are you? I will not listen more to anything you say. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+/Z4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxqZGACeJ8BFgd2qDp8WS/Ll/fQQjnuc JocAoNofErzZ1MHJjIdAlM8y4WaHNOTH =Fzqx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Le vendredi 06 avril 2012 à 16:28 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Please stop, this is completely off-topic. -- Frederic Crozat <fcrozat@suse.com> SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 17:02, Frederic Crozat wrote:
Please stop, this is completely off-topic.
I agree, but he started, and has not apologized for insulting me. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9/C/UACgkQIvFNjefEBxqbWwCg2kJh3Yxj38q6PkTS1kCKFKhH ZC0AoJn0OUFouMlGTFrTnYOLxNY0X2a3 =0E+l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 17:29 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
That is irrelevant. It has to stop somewhere before moderators are forced to kick people. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/06 15:19 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:
Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!
If my bank required Flash, it wouldn't be my bank any more, and I'd let it know why in no uncertain terms, without using the word "Linux". -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 16:19, Felix Miata wrote:
Ha! Money knows not of such things. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+/WgACgkQIvFNjefEBxr0iwCg0elonUB9hXHnexLCPomX25Hu U6UAoJDvFRTov03nZ48p0XlXljDBB/I7 =Eenc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
What if it was the only local credit union you qualified to access? What if you hate Bank of America and Chase etc more than you hate Flash? The choice to use a credit union vs any bank, even a small local one (which just ends up getting bought by a bigger nastier one some day) is vastly more important to your life than whether that small credit union's small IT staff inconveniently used flash on it's web site, even if they used it in some way that you have to care about instead of just a banner. Silly discussion. Practically every restaurant web site not only uses flash but is almost 100% flash. They are restaurant. Not IT companies. They don't even know they have a problem, they are busy being good at pasta not good at web sites, and that's _entirely_ the way I'd like it, much as a better web site would be nice for me, I care more that they are good chefs. So, when I hit google to find some place to go tonight, I want their site to work so I can at least see their address and hours and phone number. If I had the attitude that the use of flash on their web site mattered _at all_ then I'd miss out on their excellent food and atmosphere and lake side view and other patrons etc etc etc... There are other restaurants, but choosing a restaurant by the quality of their web site is stupid. Same for the auto mechanic. Same for the picture framer. Same for everything. It's really quite stupid to let a thing like that get in the way of your real life. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 21:45:27 +0530, Brian K. White <brian@aljex.com> wrote:
+1 technology is supposed to help with life, not replace or direct it. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 21:50 +0530, phanisvara das wrote:
People, Please stay focused on the topic at hand. Drifting into insults and other non-topic related items is pointless and just creates nothing but noise. The topic here is whether to continue shipping the official Adobe flash plugin or not. If people feel discussions need to be continued, stay on topic giving valid reasons without getting righteous or similar. There is a *ZERO* tolerance policy for abuse, it doesn't matter who started it - just STOP IT, NOW! If you are a flash hater, good for you. Many other people don't mind it, some like it, others just get on with it as it is needed to continue their day. Leave the philosophical and holier than thou rants at the door, they have no place here. This list is about the future direction of openSUSE's distribution and is generally of a more technical nature, so please keep this in mind and stick to it. The openSUSE Board have had way too many complaints from both members and non-members about the signal to noise ratio being unacceptable on several mailing lists, and as such we will be taking stronger action against perpetrators of improper actions. Also it is every person's duty to ensure that our peers stay on track and keep the mailing lists clear of nonsense. On behalf of the openSUSE Board, Andy -- Andrew Wafaa IRC: FunkyPenguin GPG: 0x3A36312F -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 4/6/2012 12:54 PM, Andrew Wafaa wrote:
In what way did _your_ post stay on topic? You only talked about other talkers and not about the question of continuing to include flash or not at all. You post was the most "noise" to me. Yet the post you replied to was _all_ about reasons why it's counter productive to consider removing Flash at this time because of the reality that too many of the resources on internet require it. How else can you decide that perfectly "technical" item affecting "the future direction of openSUSE's distribution" ? These _are_ the pro's & cons that need to be pointed out in order to justify either keeping it or dropping it. Frankly Graham's points are perfectly valid as far as they go. So if there are counter points, of course they must be illustrated in order to decide correctly which way to go. Now back to the topic in a more "technical nature" , I would also point out that there are other options besides keep Adobe Flash or drop Adobe Flash. Investing work in improving gnash or other flash implementations is also an option to provide some level of web site coverage without necessarily being dependent on Adobe's actions. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 13:38 -0400, Brian K. White wrote:
Andy's insertion here is perfectly valid, and I thank him and the rest of the openSUSE Board for stepping in to provide the needed guidance and wake-up call on what this list and topic is all about. Yes, I agree with you that Graham's original post was a valid opening discussion on a technical matter, but Graham himself unfortunately turned this into a personal insult against several people which resulted in a heated exchange throughout this thread. I think we all thank Graham for apologizing at one point for crossing the line and distracting us from the original intent of this discussion. But, as is human nature, once a flame gets lobbed, it gets pretty hard to stop the mess because emotions due run raw. If Andy or any other board member cannot jump in and say "Hey, cool it guys!" where can they? I think Andy did the right move. And I hope to see this mailing list move in a more positive direction soon, as currently, the Factory mailing list isn't always a fun place to read. In the words of the illustrious Rodney King... "Can we all just get along?" Now back to the main topic of this thread... Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Project -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.04.2012 03:36, schrieb Bryen M Yunashko:
Now back to the main topic of this thread...
Actually I prepared a long post on-topic of this thread but threw it away as I noticed that everything has been said already. I try to sum up what I understood now. I've seen no single convincing argument why it's better for openSUSE and our users to drop the Flash plugin now. Graham's proposal had no real argument for it besides things like - Adobe abandoned it (partly true) - Flash is crap (always has been true) - Flash is a security mess (always has been true) (but it's a 3rd-party vendor promising security updates for another 5 years) - Apple dropped it already which are no arguments why we should drop it at this moment IMHO. It's absolutely unrealistic that our decision will have any impact on the web so it's not even a political decision to force the web to do something (as opposed to Apple's weight). Flash will die over the next years. Let's get rid of it when it's time but not now. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Personally I know we cannot scrap it even if we would want it. always people would find a way to install it from stupidity, fear of change or need. All we can do is to inform the users that using it is bad... due to security issue... the boogie man can come and see what porn they are using... I may suggest to have a wiki page on life without flash... or how to stay protected when using it. install a flash blocker and load only the crap you really need. this is really a problem that a distro cannot solve. Alin On 7 April 2012 08:05, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> wrote:
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On Sat, 07 Apr 2012 12:35:17 +0530, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> wrote:
exactly; it's not a distro's business to force their users to become better cyber-citizens, or better human beings even. present reality is that many don't want to live without flash, perhaps even can't, and openSUSE should make it possible for them to achieve that. doesn't matter if the flash plugin comes from an external repo or one of the core ones; everybody uses codecs from packman after all, and those are (at least legally) tainted and not strictly necessary either. once it becomes known that due to flash many openSUSE machines are getting infected, that would be different, but i haven't seen that yet. it's always been known as a resource hog & security risk, but that hasn't stopped many from using it. education is great, and so would be work on flash alternatives if there's any hope for success. in the longer term flash will go away, and unless there's a large new security hole, openSUSE should just wait it out and follow the needs of their users. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 10:25, phanisvara das <listmail@phanisvara.com> wrote:
As one of those raising the "can't" flag, one of my contract work websites just announced that they are going to be migrating off Flash. Yay. The migration will take several months at best, but the goal the announced is to be Flash-free on that particular site "later this year". That's one done and what feels like a gazillion more to go (before i can be Flash free as well). C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/06 12:15 (GMT-0400) Brian K. White composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2012/04/06 15:19 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:
Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!
If my bank required Flash, it wouldn't be my bank any more, and I'd let it know why in no uncertain terms, without using the word "Linux".
What if it was the only local credit union you qualified to access?
Telephone, if local was truly requisite.
What if you hate Bank of America and Chase etc more than you hate Flash?
FNBO, HSBC, ING, TD Ameritrade, eTrade, State Farm, Wells Fargo, Regions, Republic, SunTrust, yada yada yada? Even without Flash banks are expert at creating miserable to use sites. :-( http://fm.no-ip.com/Inet/shame.html
If truly a local institution, no web site needed. However, if truly local, it's probably small, and capable of being explained to about the horrors of an inaccessible or requiring of non-FOSS software web site. Local, except for those who don't use the web, is passe. Local is about people and service. That requires walking in, conversing, and shaking hands, not web site bling.
I don't eat at restaurants. I don't use the web for entertainment's sake. The limited size of a computer screen is incapable of a large enough quantity of visual imagery to be anything other than bling. I do use the web for locating information. When I want to be entertained I turn on the TV, which is big enough to be entertaining. Bling obfuscates information, so of the 6 web browsers I run 24/7, only one has Flash installed, and that one gets used the least in the interest of minimizing the frustrations of inaccessibility. 4 of the other 5 are HTML5 capable, and I haven't yet figured out a simple way to avoid the bling that gets through in those.
Any business that seriously wants maximum value from its web site maximizes accessibility. Few that have done so include accessible Flash, which is a virtual oxymoron. A business whose web site can't provide basic information without Flash doesn't expect to draw those who depend on accessibility or iPads as customers.
There are other restaurants, but choosing a restaurant by the quality of their web site is stupid.
[OT] A web site (a business, probably a proprietorship or corporation, one thing, it) -> its web site. No "they".
Same for the auto mechanic. Same for the picture framer. Same for everything.
Choosing a seamstress, mechanic, roofer, physician, attorney or CPA based upon web site bling is stupid.
It's really quite stupid to let a thing like that get in the way of your real life.
A11Y. With Flash, inaccessibility is king. Web site inaccessibility gets in the way daily for too many people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_accessibility https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78414 (filed nearly 11 years ago) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 April 2012 08.11:52 Graham Anderson wrote:
Politically, and by philosophy I would say yes to that. But on this topic, we should be the last to do that. Once all distribution around have drop Adobe Flash plugin, then yes remove it. Unfortunately, a big number of users, need this infamous plugin to work. And again, no luck to have a free alternative. In a few years ~2015/2016 html5/css3 will have replace it at 98% in popular website and perhaps 50% of application developed with flash will have change their technology.
From what I've read, Adobe doesn't continue themselves to maintain flash under Linux and give that to Google, who want it inside Chrome.
-- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Ambassador GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 08:32:58 Bruno Friedmann wrote:
Let the plugin live in some external repo. If users would like to use it they can just use their own good judgement ;) and install it from the community repo. Frankly flash plugin is an abomnination and now we understand that it's no longer supported by Adobe it's the perfect time to drop it. Flash plugin is buggy, full of security holes, inefficient and bloated. Lets treat it like we should treat any old unsupported software - remove it from the distro.
Fredag den 6. april 2012 09:16:51 Graham Anderson skrev:
Frankly flash plugin is an abomnination and now we understand that it's no longer supported by Adobe it's the perfect time to drop it.
I believe they said they'll provide security updates for another five years. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/06/2012 02:29 AM, Graham Anderson wrote:
I don't trust them! They have already announced they won't fix the blue-face bug in the current Flash version! We'll see five-years of security updates when pigs fly. Also, IANAL, but are there any liabilities associated with knowingly distributing software with security problems? Just wondering... I don't know what the answer is here, but it's always dangerous to hang hats on proprietary software. Could it be that a certain large software company paid Adobe to drop Linux support? That so much of the Web relies on proprietary software is a true travesty! Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Graham Anderson wrote:
I think we should think about the users first. It is unfortunate that Adobe doesn't want to do that, but we don't have to follow right away. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I despise Flash. It's a security vulnerability and a resource hog. Having said that, at this time, it is not realistic to stop supporting Flash. Even Adobe and Google will continue supporting Flash for a while. I think you saw this article; http://www.unixmen.com/bye-bye-flash-for-linux/ or something like it. But even this is a few years off. Dropping Flash would be premature. On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 08:32 +0200, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 08:32, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
From what I've read, Adobe doesn't continue themselves to maintain flash under Linux and give that to Google, who want it inside Chrome.
Will they remove support only from Linux, or will the support be removed also from Windows? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+7psACgkQIvFNjefEBxqcmACbBqytcmMGtWWqwd5N2tGRiX+g t4wAoMjOKJpc0xg2X+5NoS0/nRlbq35X =4/ap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Flash never made it onto the iPhone (nor iPad?). That is a significant issue that is causing web page redesigns as we speak as I understand. So the proposal in a sense is to follow Apple's lead. I think it is premature to do, but not ridiculous to discuss. If people use websites with flash only interfaces, they should be able to contact the web admins and ask when they will drop it since Apple already has and even Adobe is recommending sites quit using it.. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 15:33, Greg Freemyer wrote:
Good luck with that. They'll tell you they only support Windows. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+8ycACgkQIvFNjefEBxrEfQCeL9a3DcapErZZV+snZLaDAOq7 usgAoLveavRTCaTalJkxUgzexXwvqhMA =XAhs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/06/2012 08:11 AM, Graham Anderson wrote:
Furthermore, I think that flash plugin should not be offered as an additional repository or installation option.
While I really hate the flash plugin, I also see, that many websites can't be accessed without it. So, as a less radical approach, I'd not install or pull it in by default, but still make it accessible. People who need it will need to make an effort and actively install it. Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Graham Anderson schrieb:
For one thing, Adobe just released a new version of Flash for Linux. Even if that's the last "major" update they said they'll deliver, they haven't abandoned "us" yet. Also, they promised security updates for 11.2 Linux to be made for years to come, so it's not like we'd make users more insecure than before. (And, just as a reminder, Google will support Flash for Chrome even with new versions, as they have full access to Flash source code, but as Google has created their own non-standard "pepper" plugin API and is using that in this version of Flash, it doesn't work with any non-Chrome browser - and it's delivered as a part of Chrome anyhow.) That said, even Adobe is encouraging people to move away from Flash and to "HTML5" technologies altogether. While I don't understand their business motivations behind that, it's surely a good move. Still, we are not at a stage yet where most web users can live without Flash. I heard that there might even be an ongoing project to create an open "HTML5" Flash player in the same style as PDF.js, which is now included in bleeding-edge Firefox development versions. As much as I dislike Flash (esp. as someone looking at Firefox crash reports all day, including a lot of them from Flash plugin processes), I agree with others in this thread that it's premature to cut openSUSE users off Flash completely. The time will come when we can exclude it from default patterns, the time to exclude it from optional non-free repositories will come still a lot later. Let's not transform our dislike for a technology to a problem for our users. Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 06.04.2012 11:56, schrieb Robert Kaiser:
For one thing, Adobe just released a new version of Flash for Linux. Even if
Which is worse than the previous version because it broke every nvidia system!
that's the last "major" update they said they'll deliver, they haven't abandoned "us" yet. Also, they promised security updates for 11.2 Linux to be made for
they promised security updates but apparently they introduce more and more regression they publically claim not to fix?
years to come, so it's not like we'd make users more insecure than before.
People are already rolling back to 11.1 to make it usable ignoring the security issues. All that concerns me a lot!
Yes, so this part is extremely contra productive since this is Chrome only which no Linux distro can ship anyway (AFAIK) and Chromium does not have that feature. So all the above are no arguments since reality shows Adobe already abandoned all Linux/nvidia users (more or less).
I agree that we cannot kill the Flash plugin right now as much as I wanted it to happen. It makes me angry how much Adobe pisses off Linux users and non-Chrome users at the moment as this makes Linux look like a even worse desktop system and especially to you as a "Mozilla guy" this will most likely decrease Firefox and SeaMonkey usage on Linux even more as people have to switch to Chrome if they want proper Flash support. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 16:14:14 +0530, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> wrote:
For one thing, Adobe just released a new version of Flash for Linux. Even if
Which is worse than the previous version because it broke every nvidia system!
ahem, not _every_ nvidia system; mine works fine still. probably depends on the card (GT430, in my case). -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 13:02, phanisvara das <listmail@phanisvara.com> wrote:
Do you have Hardware Acceleration enabled? If you enable it, it will swap the red and blue channels making everyone look like a Smurf. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 16:47:05 +0530, C <smaug42@opensuse.org> wrote:
oh my, i should have checked before i replied. always thought i had HW acceleration enabled, but actually didn't. enabling it i see that 'smurf,' too :( -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 16:47:05 +0530, C <smaug42@opensuse.org> wrote:
oh my, i should have checked before i replied. always thought i had HW acceleration enabled, but actually didn't. enabling it i see that 'smurf,' too :( -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 13:39, phanisvara das wrote:
You are right... so we have to go back a flash version! :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+8kUACgkQIvFNjefEBxpZHgCgi/7d0O2ADz+Ap7JDIXgmCy1+ QAwAnA0sANlJF4TA57f1w8TRroW8qE5t =8Aaa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:10:21 +0530, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
You are right... so we have to go back a flash version!
not really; i don't use flash a lot and think i can manage w/o HW acceleration. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 15:47, phanisvara das wrote:
On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:10:21 +0530, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
not really; i don't use flash a lot and think i can manage w/o HW acceleration.
I don't watch videos often, but some sites I need use flash forms. If colours change on a form it is not important, though. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+9MMACgkQIvFNjefEBxo+BACfS44Thl/uPBv6+PInUjwoWy9S ZiUAn1Gaa0jx7TRLdpwfnRTfgjRG/K+B =Fxkb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 15:50, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
It is only really noticeable in videos. Simply going into the options and disabling hardware acceleration will "fix" it. Generally you won't notice the difference with it disabled. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:20:59 +0530, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I don't watch videos often, but some sites I need use flash forms. If colours change on a form it is not important, though.
and i still can use flash, even for full-screen, w/o HW acceleration, and then colors are ok. is HW acceleration even available for all video cards & drivers? don't think so, and therefore don't think it's an extremely important issue. (i may be mistaken, of course.) -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Rosenauer schrieb:
Wow, didn't know that. I would guess that they are still interested in providing a fix for that. When software developers say "maintained for security", that usually includes stability and bad-regression fixes, and this surely falls in that category. I hope Adobe has been contacted on this.
People are already rolling back to 11.1 to make it usable ignoring the security issues. All that concerns me a lot!
Yes, people downgrading to insecure versions always bothers me as well, I'm currently seeing a lot of concerning stuff around the Java security issues and Mozilla blocking versions where an exploit exists in the wild. Stuff like "but we need to continue using Firefox 3.0.10 and java 1.6.0.13" - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739955#c69 - makes me shiver.
I don't think it actually will make a serious dent into Firefox usage, esp. given that the not-really-open incomplete-code-drop-over-the-wall Chromium doesn't fare better and Chrome is not an option for anyone believing in Free Software (or for the defaults of distros). The real goal needs to be to make Flash obsolete and unneeded and work for openness, innovation and opportunities on the web - for everyone. Thankfully, that's the Mozilla mission. :) Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Robert Kaiser wrote:
Leaving belief out of it, it will take my eight year old two milliseconds to drop FF and switch to whatever supports Flash on Linux. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 13:55, Robert Kaiser <KaiRo@kairo.at> wrote:
See my post on this on the openSUSE User mailing list. Basically they know about it... there are a stack of bugs open on it with Adobe and they are closing them as they are opened stating they are no longer supporting Flash on Linux post 11.2 (nevermind that this is a well known bug in 11.2 which was there all through the Beta cycles). C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 12:44:14 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
I really disagrree with this. There should be no pandering to incumbent and deprecated technologies. The sentiment "its bad but we have to put up with it" makes my skin crawl. Flash was only tolerated because it was the easiest way to get a video decoder into the browser. That has changed. Linux is moving most markets right now, except the desktop, desktop Linux is not in the same league as server, mobile and embeded. There will be nothing to gain from shackeling our desktops to such things as Flash (which everyone including Adobe are leaving behind anyway). Really, we win _nothing_ by continuing to support flash.
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 14:29:35 Per Jessen wrote:
Do you mean in the sense of "no flash will use something else" or "these guys don't support flash, wtf not going to use that?" or something else? I ask because one of the platforms that users love and rant about doesn't use flash as a matter of its engineering policy.
Graham Anderson wrote:
Mostly the first one.
I ask because one of the platforms that users love and rant about doesn't use flash as a matter of its engineering policy.
My son doesn't give a toss about engineering policies :-) - he doesn't know what a distro is either, but if his PC won't play youtube videos and miniclip games, he'll go somewhere else. Probably to Windows. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/06/12 08:19, Graham Anderson pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Including new users of openSuSE! -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 08:46:54 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
Including new users of openSuSE!
I don't see any evidence to suggest we are getting new users doing what we have been doing for the past 3 years of release cycles. So yeah, lets keep pandering to the existing users who scream "DONT CHANGE ME" and lets see where we are in 5 years.
On Friday 06 April 2012 08:11:52 Graham Anderson wrote:
Strongly disagree, some of the sites I frequent daily and couldn't live without require flash. This is true for many of my not-very-tech-savvy friends as well, who would never consider an option that did not provide flash. We want to keep openSUSE the easiest OS to work with Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
BBC web site requires it for sound / video. Andy -----Original Message----- From: Anders Johansson <ajh@nitio.de> To: opensuse-factory <opensuse-factory@opensuse.org> Sent: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 17:06 Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Adobe flash plugin On Friday 06 April 2012 08:11:52 Graham Anderson wrote:> List,> > I would like to ask your thoughts on how we use and offer the flash plugin.> > Clearly Adobe are no longer willing to support Linux as an OS. Persuant to> this I propose we drop the flash plugin option entirely; by this I mean that> none of our installation options should suggest flash plugin.> > Furthermore, I think that flash plugin should not be offered as an> additional repository or installation option.Strongly disagree, some of the sites I frequent daily and couldn't live without require flash. This is true for many of my not-very-tech-savvy friends as well, who would never consider an option that did not provide flash. We want to keep openSUSE the easiest OS to work withAnders-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.orgTo contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 08:11, Graham Anderson <graham@andtech.eu> wrote:
The problem with that is that a vast portion of the web relies on Flash, and I'm not talking about YouTube here. If we decide to drop Flash altogether, then we had better come up with an alternative for Flash that ensures that websites continue working. Ignoring the big ones like YouTube, there are many other sites that rely on Flash - uTest for example is a 100% Flash based site, and there are loads of others out there that simply will not work without Flash. You can say, I suppose, use Google Chrome for all Flash based websites (they roll in Flash with the browser).... will this work? Is this an acceptable alternative? If yes, then Chrome needs to be in the default install if Flash is dropped... in place of Firefox? What about standalone applications that rely on Flash? How do we deal with those? Are the open source Flash implementations "good enough" to be drop in replacements? Until the web moves beyond Flash, we are in a situation where we need to continue supporting and providing some sort of Flash support. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 08:24:57 C wrote:
That "vast" portion of the web that relies on flash also usually relies on IE6 or IE7, all of these three techs are in decline and none of them should be indirectly supported by openSUSE. <video> is available on many youtube channels now, any new vid uploaded will be available via <video>
100% flash sites should live or die on their own sword. Any argument to support them in the context of openSUSE is fundamentally flawed. Any site that is 100% flash should rely on their own proprietary tech. Flash is not an open standard and actionscript is maintained outside of accepable norms.
Just drop flash entirely, all our packaged browsers support <video> and <audio>
What about standalone applications that rely on Flash? How do we deal with those?
Let them die.
Are the open source Flash implementations "good enough" to be drop in replacements?
No, they are terrible and flash/actionscript are not open standards.
Sorry. I use the WeightWatchers members website. It uses Flash. It's a must have item. It's not optional at all. Steven -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE Linux 12.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I have,I do and, I no longer am even close to over weight but I still rely on this website. I am an openSUSE user just like you explaining the reality of the necessity of Flash for the foreseeable future. It's too early to drop Flash support. Steven -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE Linux 12.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 Apr 2012 00:23:17 Steven Hess wrote:
I sympathise because I am not a small person and I have a nasty appetite, but I disagree that this is a reason to support the flash plugin. For as long as flash exists there will always be sites and pages that rely on using it. That alone is a poor reason to continue supporting it in it's decline. G
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