On 09/04/2008, Randall R Schulz wrote:

As a Linux user, I invite you to use one of the proper implementations of a W3C-compliant Mail User Agent. I like KMail. Thunderbird is OK, too, though not personally to my taste.

That is not a practical solution for people who move around a lot, don't use a single laptop, and would rather have all their mail and mail settings in one place. That's the reason I use GMail. It's also not just GMail doing this -- do any other of the major web mail providers follow this? Personally I think it's crazy to have a setting benefiting all users who can actually easily configure the behaviour (i.e. using clients like KMail, Thunderbird) to behave differently, those who would never have to put up with a constant hassle (like we do), but I'm not exactly keen on pushing this going on the previous discussions. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 16:53 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Tuesday 08 April 2008 16:46, Francis Giannaros wrote:

...

On 09/04/2008, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

As a Linux user, I invite you to use one of the proper implementations of a W3C-compliant Mail User Agent. I like KMail. Thunderbird is OK, too, though not personally to my taste.

That is not a practical solution for people who move around a lot, don't use a single laptop, and would rather have all their mail and mail settings in one place. That's the reason I use GMail.

Find an ISP that provides IMAP, then. And if you're "moving around a lot" and need information services, why _don't_ you have a laptop? If email is important, why do you allow yourself to be at the mercy of whatever internet-connected computer you can manage to find?

You're limiting your perspective of use cases. I agree that imap gives flexibility. However, limiting yourself to a single laptop machine you take everywhere doesn't allow for flexibility. Some of us don't like lugging our laptops around day in and day out. In my opinion, you're more at the mercy of the laptop than at multiple machines available to you at work, home and such. Bryen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 09/04/2008, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Find an ISP that provides IMAP, then.

Like GMail? I'm not going to synchronise something like 1GB of mails on several computers because (i) it's completely unpractical, (ii) not possible for University, (iii) unfair for others that share the computer, (iv) a hassle to set up the mail settings in several locations.

And if you're "moving around a lot" and need information services, why _don't_ you have a laptop?

I'm a student and I don't have a lot of money. If you want to donate the money to me to buy one, I promise I won't ever complain about the mailing list reply-to behaviour again. Deal?

If email is important, why do you allow yourself to be at the mercy of whatever internet-connected computer you can manage to find?

I don't understand this point at all. It's precisely _because_ email is important that I don't want to have it accessible from only one location.

Why should I care how many people or organizations do it wrong?

Because others doing it wrong means that other (innocent) people will also "have it wrong" if you keep the "right" way that doesn't make much sense, and currently only benefits those who have the power to have whatever behaviour they like. Regards, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 08 April 2008 07:13:14 pm Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/04/08 16:53 (GMT-0700) Randall R Schulz apparently typed:

...

Why should I care how many people or organizations do it wrong?

The reason email is such a hell-hole is in part 'cause all these haphazard implementations.

Unless I'm mistaken after many years here, this and the opensuse list are intended to be public discussion lists, not public questions private replies lists. As such, the default behavior regardless of email access method should for replies to goto everyone, not to goto the originator of the thread or follow-ups thereto. How difficult or not it is to deviate from the default reply target should not be relevant at all. It's inane that every time this discussion resurfaces that this fundamental problem is so infrequently touched on. What mail clients do or don't do or what RFC is or is not properly implemented by which email clients are not, or at least should not be, the point discussed when noobs are baffled by the lack of reply to list not being default.

That was one of arguments before vote that decided to use current method. Some people like to have ability to send private email, if appropriate. Though you have a point. New users with web mail from their provider may have problem. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Oddball schreef:

Rajko M. schreef:

...

On Tuesday 08 April 2008 07:13:14 pm Felix Miata wrote:

...

Unless I'm mistaken after many years here, this and the opensuse list are intended to be public discussion lists, not public questions private replies lists. As such, the default behavior regardless of email access method should for replies to goto everyone, not to goto the originator of the thread or follow-ups thereto. How difficult or not it is to deviate from the default reply target should not be relevant at all. It's inane that every time this discussion resurfaces that this fundamental problem is so infrequently touched on. What mail clients do or don't do or what RFC is or is not properly implemented by which email clients are not, or at least should not be, the point discussed when noobs are baffled by the lack of reply to list not being default.

That was one of arguments before vote that decided to use current method. Some people like to have ability to send private email, if appropriate. Though you have a point. New users with web mail from their provider may have problem.

Would it be very difficult to change default to reply to list?

I understand now i've read all the comments. The arguments against changing the defaults win. To set up a decent way to get your mail, like proposed on a flashdrive, has to be done only once. Maybe the opposers did not think of that method. I am also a little 'old school': 'If' you do something, do it 'right'. ( i donot have anything against left, i used to be left before cutting of some pieces of my finger and thumb. ;) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.25-rc8-12-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.68 (KDE 4.0.68 >= 20080402) "release 3.1" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Those who are REAL annoyed with GMail's lack of a "Reply to list" option might consider suggesting this feature to the people at Google/Gmail http://mail.google.com/support/bin/request.py?contact_type=suggest --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Francis Giannaros [04-08-08 19:48]:

On 09/04/2008, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

As a Linux user, I invite you to use one of the proper implementations of a W3C-compliant Mail User Agent. I like KMail. Thunderbird is OK, too, though not personally to my taste.

That is not a practical solution for people who move around a lot, don't use a single laptop, and would rather have all their mail and mail settings in one place. That's the reason I use GMail.

Sure it is. I pop email and access my home computer from anywhere that I want to see my email. Also, this way, I use *my* choice of email client rather than gmail's :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Francis Giannaros [04-08-08 20:08]:

See below for more of an explanation,

but there is nothing below...

POP is not good for me because I heavily rely on filters and folders/labels.

that's what procmail is for. I also rely heavily on filters...

I also really like GMail apart from this little behaviour (and the thread-breaking on title-change).

And GMail still has all of my mail which has passed thru :^) and may be accessed from anywhere via http -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Francis Giannaros [04-08-08 20:26]:

On 09/04/2008, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

that's what procmail is for. I also rely heavily on filters...

Which means I'll have to set up my mail settings in multiple locations -- that's a big hassle for me. I don't consider POP a solution at all. Procmail is also not an option on restricted computers at University.

...

And GMail still has all of my mail which has passed thru :^) and may be accessed from anywhere via http

And then I'm using yet another place for getting to my email, when I want to centralise and have it in one location, with all my settings in one place. Not changing it every time I go to a new place, and not wasting hours setting up the same settings in multiple places, and then changing them for multiple locations each time, etc.

My email is maintained in *one* location, filters and all, my home computer which is accessable from anywhere via ssh. You are making it hard for no reason. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Francis Giannaros [04-08-08 20:50]:

No, I don't want to use any CLI email client (like most of the world) which is what I presume you're referring to. That method works fine for you -- it (POP, CLI email client, huge waste of time setting up procmail) emphatically does not work for me.

ssh -X and you can use your mouse :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Rajko M. [04-08-08 21:07]:

http://en.opensuse.org/SSH_Tunnels_from_Microsoft_Windows is probably answer on next question, though it can be problem if Francis can't install anything on college computers. Than GMail is the only solution.

Well, not quite. I carry a thumb/flash drive with xming on it. It is completely contained within the flash drive and runs on windoz boxes with a usb port. Provides a portable putty with X capability. Plug in it and access my home computer :^) There is *no* reason to be stuck with web mail when you can serve your own from home... -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 08 April 2008 19:15, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 20:41 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

My email is maintained in *one* location, filters and all, my home computer which is accessable from anywhere via ssh. You are making it hard for no reason.

OK, I have 2 questions:

1) Why is this being discussed on the Factory mailinglist? Isn't this something for opensuse-project?

It cuts across all mailing lists (SuSE and beyond).

2) Do you seriously think most users, even those subscribing to a mailinglist, would seriously set up ssh to access their email, when free webmail is so much easier?

Easy is often wrong. In this case, it most certainly is. If central authorities (such as those that manage this list) continue to give in to this sort of degradation of practice, we'll end up with mush. I applaud Henne V. who refuses to succumb to these slothful user requests. Most lists capitulate to this crap, and they're predictably crappy. Worse than the Reply-To crap is the thread hijacking crap. Those whose mailers implement the pertinent standards relating to threading get mailboxes full of this crap while users of GMail and Outlook / Outlook Express are ignorant of the chaos they perpetrate. I have to deal with people who say "Start a new thread: All you have to do is use 'Reply' and then change the Subject." !! Gag me! The SuSE lists used to demand a higher standard, but in the past few years that has changed. People like me and Patrick S. who wish to maintain standards, both civil and technological, are losing the battle. Sad, but true. This crap is why I now advocate the use of bulletin-board-style forums instead of mailing lists. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 09 April 2008, Francis Giannaros wrote:

On 09/04/2008, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

As a Linux user, I invite you to use one of the proper implementations of a W3C-compliant Mail User Agent. I like KMail. Thunderbird is OK, too, though not personally to my taste.

That is not a practical solution for people who move around a lot, don't use a single laptop, and would rather have all their mail and mail settings in one place. That's the reason I use GMail.

It's also not just GMail doing this -- do any other of the major web mail providers follow this? Personally I think it's crazy to have a setting benefiting all users who can actually easily configure the behaviour (i.e. using clients like KMail, Thunderbird) to behave differently, those who would never have to put up with a constant hassle (like we do), but I'm not exactly keen on pushing this going on the previous discussions.

Kind thoughts,

If you will insist on using a web based mailer what can you expect but wondows type behaviour of do it my way or not at all .. Web mail is great for filtering out the bulk spam for you ie yahoo ect but as for a usable mail system forget it . Kmail works very well , Thunderbird works not my cup of tea thou . What you have to remember is this is a Linux mailing list the vast majority of us are using Linux systems to read/send mail we are NOT about to start conforming to some other failed standard just because you can sit back and look then think and work a way of making your chosen FAULTY mailer of choice conform .. Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 09 April 2008, Birger Kollstrand wrote:

2008/4/9, peter nikolic :

...

If you will insist on using a web based mailer what can you expect but wondows type behaviour of do it my way or not at all .. Web mail is great for filtering out the bulk spam for you ie yahoo ect but as for a usable mail system forget it .

Kmail works very well , Thunderbird works not my cup of tea thou .

What you have to remember is this is a Linux mailing list the vast majority of us are using Linux systems to read/send mail we are NOT about to start conforming to some other failed standard just because you can sit back and look then think and work a way of making your chosen FAULTY mailer of choice conform ..

It it possible to be more pragmatic on this issue? Can it be an option in the mailinglist SW that could be sent in as a command?

Another thing I wonder about , is something going "wrong" in the mailnglist if "Reply to all" is used when answering on the mailing list.

Birger

From the Gmail client as that is the ONLY available where I'm located just now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Errr Reply to all does just that replies to all ,, but surley if you are using a Mailing list such as this then you replt to the Mailing list that should be sifficent for the vast majority of people .. . And even the most crappy of mailers ihave looked at can reply to almost any address so where's the problem just entering the list address in the to field This has been done to death several times on this list it is about time it is let alone the list works very nicley thank you as is Kmail works a treat A Linux / KDE based mail client it is a LINUX List nuff said do we have to keep having the windBloWs brigade whittering on about the crappy way there junk behaves and trying to force this listy to change i think not . let sleeping dogs lie .. Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org