[opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse-gnome] GTK interface of software installer in YaST [yast2-gtk] in Factory
------- Treść oryginalnej wiadomości ------- Od: "Jakub Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> Do: opensuse-gnome@opensuse.org Kopia dla: Temat: Re: [opensuse-gnome] GTK interface of software installer in YaST [yast2-gtk] in Factory Data: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:33:14 +0200 Hi, when it comes to YaST, as somebody might listen to me right now, I'd like to say I have YaST QT software management interface. Completely unsuable, machine friendly and so 1990... YaST-GTK has a lot better interface and is really friendly. Even command line zypper is more friendly than the one I personally hate. I'm really against saying "I hate" and so but I have no choice. Over the years the interface of YaST has not changed a lot. If it changed anything else than Qt3 → Qt4. KDE has changed, has gone simplified, unified, more powerful, what I can't say about de facto KDE-dedicated interface of YaST. It looks out of place (I'm not talking about Qt style and icons - they're ok). Just for feature-parity and usability-parity I'd like to see Qt one be comparable to GTK one (identical, I guess). I used to use GNOME everyday and I wasn't complaining about YaST then, it was awesome that it was getting a GTK interface (10.3). After then I moved to KDE4 (4.2.x) and found YaST interface really ugly. When I was using SuSE 10.1 I noticed that interface and I didn't like it. Ubuntu, Fedora - they had better, more friendly tools. When PackageKit came, there's a little problem for you: to use it or not to use it. Using it is way around to getting to basic package management, while YaST is ready. You should learn about interface then. Even KPackageKit is quite nice. And don't tell me to use GTK one, since I do, but do something for new users, about which I care right now. Thank you for listening. PS Sorry for crossposting, later I noticed e-mail I'm replying to appearing also on -factory. -- Best regards, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek http://blog.jakubrusinek.pl/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:34:33 +0200 "Jakub Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> wrote:
Od: "Jakub Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> Do: opensuse-gnome@opensuse.org Kopia dla: Temat: Re: [opensuse-gnome] GTK interface of software installer in YaST [yast2-gtk] in Factory Data: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:33:14 +0200
Hi,
when it comes to YaST, as somebody might listen to me right now, I'd like to say I have YaST QT software management interface. Completely unsuable, machine friendly and so 1990...
YaST-GTK has a lot better interface and is really friendly.
...
Just for feature-parity and usability-parity I'd like to see Qt one be comparable to GTK one (identical, I guess).
Please don't. The GTK one was completely unusable for me the last time I tried it accidentally (a year ago?). So maybe it's just two different philosophies (I also dislike the GNOME filepicker, although I have to admit that it has lost some of its unusability over the last few years ;) and two different pieces of software to implement that. If the YaST2 QT software install module gets as crippled as the GTK one, then we might as well just drop it. Because then, zypper is the only way to install software. There might be a very slim chance that the GTK frontend has gotten a bit more usable in the last year, but since M5 is uninstallable, I cannot test it right now. -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dnia 14-04-2010 o 16:57:47 Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> napisał(a):
Please don't. The GTK one was completely unusable for me the last time I tried it accidentally (a year ago?).
So maybe it's just two different philosophies (I also dislike the GNOME filepicker, although I have to admit that it has lost some of its unusability over the last few years ;) and two different pieces of software to implement that.
If the YaST2 QT software install module gets as crippled as the GTK one, then we might as well just drop it. Because then, zypper is the only way to install software.
There might be a very slim chance that the GTK frontend has gotten a bit more usable in the last year, but since M5 is uninstallable, I cannot test it right now.
I'm trying to understand how can you like Qt interface, but I guess I can't (; . I really like clear separation of available, upgrades and installed packages. I dislike the filters. Powerful and quick search is enough for me. I only wonder why SUSE's rebuilding each package so many times if there's no changes inside? Waste of oBS resources. But it's not financed by me ^^ . -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards / Viele Grüße, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek http://blog.jakubrusinek.pl/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 14. April 2010 17:15:36 schrieb Jakub Rusinek:
Dnia 14-04-2010 o 16:57:47 Stefan Seyfried
<stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> napisał(a):
Please don't. The GTK one was completely unusable for me the last time I tried it accidentally (a year ago?).
So maybe it's just two different philosophies (I also dislike the GNOME filepicker, although I have to admit that it has lost some of its unusability over the last few years ;) and two different pieces of software to implement that.
If the YaST2 QT software install module gets as crippled as the GTK one, then we might as well just drop it. Because then, zypper is the only way to install software.
There might be a very slim chance that the GTK frontend has gotten a bit more usable in the last year, but since M5 is uninstallable, I cannot test it right now.
I'm trying to understand how can you like Qt interface, but I guess I can't (; .
Taste differs, I can't stand some gnome dialogs either, anyways not the point
I really like clear separation of available, upgrades and installed packages. I dislike the filters. Powerful and quick search is enough for me.
I only wonder why SUSE's rebuilding each package so many times if there's no changes inside? Waste of oBS resources. But it's not financed by me ^^ .
Whenever a dependency changes a rebuild is triggered, there are mechanisms to try analyze the output (if it did change at all) so no update is required, though I think it is only active on openSUSE:Factory And yeah, basicly the horsepower is there so why not =) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-04-14 17:15, Jakub Rusinek wrote:
Dnia 14-04-2010 o 16:57:47 Stefan Seyfried <> napisał(a):
There might be a very slim chance that the GTK frontend has gotten a bit more usable in the last year, but since M5 is uninstallable, I cannot test it right now.
I'm trying to understand how can you like Qt interface, but I guess I can't (; .
And I can't understand how you like the gtk interface, but I can't - and not because of looks. I find the yast software mngmt gtk interface in 11.2 and before largely unusable, so I use yast gtk for all except software management, where I explicitly call the qt interface instead. This is a known problem, so much so that there are known hacks to automate this. There are bugzillas about this, solved as wontfix, use qt instead, gtk software management is dead end, no improvements, etc. Therefore, now that the gtk software mngmt interface has been revamped for 11.3 (see the OP (Atri) mail) I'm very interested in testing it. I might revert to use gtk flavor instead of qt. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkvGuiEACgkQja8UbcUWM1wEOAD+I37CJuY0ZLIGWhz1P3ugs19K TBh4Q99DSLd3RbfHVF8A/RPfn1GPQZ6m1LuJOvgUUTnIGQQdXs4JVXkTVzmsphci =xSoM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi Stefan! Both the interfaces will be present for 11.3 at least. So there is the qt interface for you (not by default if you are a GNOME user, but you can set it so). On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 16:57 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Please don't. The GTK one was completely unusable for me the last time I tried it accidentally (a year ago?).
I am very interested that you try out the yast2-gtk version from factory or 11.3 M5 and let me know what you miss and how you would rather want the interface. You can keep using the qt version as default and just for the sake of testing try the gtk version and let me know. Let me know if your experience is better than the last time you used it or worse.
There might be a very slim chance that the GTK frontend has gotten a bit more usable in the last year, but since M5 is uninstallable, I cannot test it right now.
I believe the version coming with 11.3 will be much better than the earlier ones, and if we can all help the developer with our useful inputs, so much the better! Thanks a lot in advance. Bye -- Atri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 04:54:55 +0530 Atri Bhattacharya <badshah400@aim.com> wrote:
Hi Stefan!
Both the interfaces will be present for 11.3 at least. So there is the qt interface for you (not by default if you are a GNOME user, but you can set it so).
On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 16:57 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Please don't. The GTK one was completely unusable for me the last time I tried it accidentally (a year ago?).
I am very interested that you try out the yast2-gtk version from factory or 11.3 M5 and let me know what you miss and how you would rather want the interface. You can keep using the qt version as default and just for the sake of testing try the gtk version and let me know. Let me know if your experience is better than the last time you used it or worse.
As much as I hate to kill a nice flamewar: Yes, the experience really is better (the last time, it did a big pacakge icon for every package, leading to lots of wasted screen real estate and it did not display - at least not easily found - details for each package). So yes, it is really better and maybe I should keep away from zypper for a few weeks and instead try it more often (to be honest - I have been hardly using any yast2 software management module at all for the last year, since zypper is even more user friendly than all that GUI stuff) The only thing I can complain is the depressive dark black toolbar theme, but maybe that's configurable somewhere. I simply did "su -; yast2 --gtk". And I like the QT control center better, but that's surely a matter of taste.
I believe the version coming with 11.3 will be much better than the earlier ones, and if we can all help the developer with our useful inputs, so much the better!
Yes, It is a huge improvement. Everything else would not be honest. Have fun, seife -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dňa 14. 4. 2010 16:34, Jakub Rusinek wrote / napísal(a):
------- Treść oryginalnej wiadomości ------- Od: "Jakub Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> Do: opensuse-gnome@opensuse.org Kopia dla: Temat: Re: [opensuse-gnome] GTK interface of software installer in YaST [yast2-gtk] in Factory Data: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:33:14 +0200
Hi,
when it comes to YaST, as somebody might listen to me right now, I'd like to say I have YaST QT software management interface. Completely unsuable, machine friendly and so 1990...
YaST-GTK has a lot better interface and is really friendly.
Even command line zypper is more friendly than the one I personally hate. I'm really against saying "I hate" and so but I have no choice.
Over the years the interface of YaST has not changed a lot. If it changed anything else than Qt3 → Qt4. KDE has changed, has gone simplified, unified, more powerful, what I can't say about de facto KDE-dedicated interface of YaST.
It looks out of place (I'm not talking about Qt style and icons - they're ok).
Just for feature-parity and usability-parity I'd like to see Qt one be comparable to GTK one (identical, I guess).
The most problem is that qt and gtk yast are inconsistent and looks like two completely different applications. This should be resolved. Then users wouldn´t face the dilemma which one is better. -- S pozdravom / Best regards, Rasto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:19:36 +0200 Rastislav Krupanský <rastislav.krupansky@gmail.com> wrote:
The most problem is that qt and gtk yast are inconsistent and looks like two completely different applications. This should be resolved. Then users wouldn´t face the dilemma which one is better.
Maybe having choice is good ;) If that means that gtk yast is changed to behave like QT yast, then I won't complain. But if QT yast is changed to behave like gtk one... that would be disastrous ;) -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dnia 14-04-2010 o 23:07:26 Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> napisał(a):
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:19:36 +0200 Rastislav Krupanský <rastislav.krupansky@gmail.com> wrote:
The most problem is that qt and gtk yast are inconsistent and looks like two completely different applications. This should be resolved. Then users wouldn´t face the dilemma which one is better.
Maybe having choice is good ;)
If that means that gtk yast is changed to behave like QT yast, then I won't complain. But if QT yast is changed to behave like gtk one... that would be disastrous ;)
Let's have a flamewar, I didn't have one for a long time ;-) . I'd willingly answer questions in a survey. Survey with mockups and a lot of questions. Of course, I can use custom built SUSE from Studio, where I can put yast2-gtk by default to an ISO containing only KDE4, but that's not a solution, it's a workaround (just like using Banshee to manage multimedia devices because Amarok can't do anything). Hm, now I'm thinking, the survey would be a great idea. Survey writers would have to denote differences between GTK and Qt versions of YaST, dis- and advantages of both, compare and mix everything to create one big survey. And then we'd have a consensus, probably. -- Best regards, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek http://blog.jakubrusinek.pl/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:21:51 +0200 "Jakub Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hm, now I'm thinking, the survey would be a great idea. Survey writers would have to denote differences between GTK and Qt versions of YaST, dis- and advantages of both, compare and mix everything to create one big survey. And then we'd have a consensus, probably.
And an app that is useless to both the current yast2 QT advocates and to the (misguided, of course!!1!11! ;-) yast2 GTK lovers. So why not have two different software management apps for different tastes? -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dnia 14-04-2010 o 23:25:11 Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> napisał(a):
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:21:51 +0200 "Jakub Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hm, now I'm thinking, the survey would be a great idea. Survey writers would have to denote differences between GTK and Qt versions of YaST, dis- and advantages of both, compare and mix everything to create one big survey. And then we'd have a consensus, probably.
And an app that is useless to both the current yast2 QT advocates and to the (misguided, of course!!1!11! ;-) yast2 GTK lovers.
So why not have two different software management apps for different tastes?
Do you think I'm the only one who might dislike YaST-Qt's sw_single interface? Maybe I'm the only one who said it aloud? No matter. But why the hell do you think that survey wouldn't bring positive changes to the unified interface? Sb said today already, they should be merged. And in long term of time, it's what I've expected long time ago. There's also one thing I'm wondering about. Why can't you really tell us what is so special in YaST-Qt what makes you like it so much (; ? -- Best regards, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek http://blog.jakubrusinek.pl/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Onsdag den 14. april 2010 23:30:07 skrev Jakub Rusinek:
Do you think I'm the only one who might dislike YaST-Qt's sw_single interface? Maybe I'm the only one who said it aloud?
If the yast-gtk interface was so great, why would they feel the need to waste a truckload of man-hours revamping it completely for every single openSUSE release? I can't keep track of this ever-changing yast-gtk thing, so I really can't comment on it. But I too am quite happy with the Qt version, it has the necessary power and generally looks pretty and organized. With these two important exceptions: https://features.opensuse.org/309252 http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=525248 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:30:07 +0200 "Jakub Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> wrote:
No matter. But why the hell do you think that survey wouldn't bring positive changes to the unified interface?
"Let's hold a survey" is almost like "let's create a comittee". You'll get the lowest common denominator. Often that's something nobody will want to use. I've seen that in too many areas of life. Just call me paranoid ;)
There's also one thing I'm wondering about. Why can't you really tell us what is so special in YaST-Qt what makes you like it so much (; ?
Actually, as I have explained hopefully in my other mail, it was the total unusability of the GTK interface some time ago that made the QT interface so superior. I now looked at the new GTK think and it definitely is much better. I'll need to actually use it for some time, then I can see what I am missing. (Which does not automatically mean it is a good idea to implement the "missing for me" stuff in a GUI package management. It might be just some use case where the answer "if you want to do *that*, zypper is a better tool for you" is totally sufficient). Have fun, seife -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----Original Message----- From: Stefan Seyfried [mailto:stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:25 PM To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse-gnome] GTK interface of software installer in YaST [yast2-gtk] in Factory
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:21:51 +0200 "Jakub Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hm, now I'm thinking, the survey would be a great idea. Survey writers would have to denote differences between GTK and Qt versions of YaST, dis- and advantages of both, compare and mix everything to create one big survey. And then we'd have a consensus, probably.
And an app that is useless to both the current yast2 QT advocates and to the (misguided, of course!!1!11! ;-) yast2 GTK lovers.
So why not have two different software management apps for different tastes? -- Stefan Seyfried
Why? For example in my case, when i changed KDE to Gnome, i was totally lost in Gtk YaST software management interface, because something completely different showed me up. Why do another applications use the same interfaces in all environments, inluded MS Windows? Does Firefox, Gimp, or another application use another interface in different environments?, No it doesn´t. E.g. i tried Mandriva last week and software management looks like the same in Gnome/KDE, or K/Ubuntu detto. And the survey about requirements would be a good idea. -- S pozdravom / Best regards, Rasto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dnia czwartek, 15 kwietnia 2010 o 08:06:41 Rastislav Krupanský napisał(a):
Why? For example in my case, when i changed KDE to Gnome, i was totally lost in Gtk YaST software management interface, because something completely different showed me up. Why do another applications use the same interfaces in all environments, inluded MS Windows? Does Firefox, Gimp, or another application use another interface in different environments?, No it doesn´t. E.g. i tried Mandriva last week and software management looks like the same in Gnome/KDE, or K/Ubuntu detto. And the survey about requirements would be a good idea.
Since Qt apps looks really pretty in Gnome (thanks to QGtkStyle) do We really need to create 2 diff tools to software management? One GUI tool for that is fair enough. -- Pozdrawiam / Best regards, Mariusz Fik, openSUSE Community Member
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-04-15 16:18, Mariusz Fik wrote:
Since Qt apps looks really pretty in Gnome (thanks to QGtkStyle) do We really need to create 2 diff tools to software management? One GUI tool for that is fair enough.
Because having only one (saye, type 'A') forces people installing the other environment 'B' to also install at least the base 'A' environment. That doesn't mean that they have to be different. I would much prefer both to be identical except in looks. It makes support much easier. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkvHkUUACgkQja8UbcUWM1wB9wD+KSOMsurSI9UZpgz/qBZLJU+B jncdb1HG4ifizvr6r8oA/RGiM6D2H+PyCrwIPZ0dJhU8mIb1k+65K/jEXWgjip4p =YhtZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dnia 16-04-2010 o 00:20:53 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@gmail.com> napisał(a):
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2010-04-15 16:18, Mariusz Fik wrote:
Since Qt apps looks really pretty in Gnome (thanks to QGtkStyle) do We really need to create 2 diff tools to software management? One GUI tool for that is fair enough.
Because having only one (saye, type 'A') forces people installing the other environment 'B' to also install at least the base 'A' environment.
False. You can write YaST-based apps which can use Qt or GTK, depending on your system, without requiring to install both at once. So current situation is wrong, because it's ok that control centers can differ, but apps should look the same, regardless the GUI library they're using right now. -- Best regards, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek http://blog.jakubrusinek.pl/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-16 07:16, Jakub Rusinek wrote:
Dnia 16-04-2010 o 00:20:53 Carlos E. R. <> > napisał(a):
On 2010-04-15 16:18, Mariusz Fik wrote:
Since Qt apps looks really pretty in Gnome (thanks to QGtkStyle) do We really need to create 2 diff tools to software management? One GUI tool for that is fair enough.
Because having only one (saye, type 'A') forces people installing the other environment 'B' to also install at least the base 'A' environment.
False. You can write YaST-based apps which can use Qt or GTK, depending on your system, without requiring to install both at once.
As far as I know, at least part of the other system of libraries is installed.
So current situation is wrong, because it's ok that control centers can differ, but apps should look the same, regardless the GUI library they're using right now.
Absolutely - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvJ70UACgkQU92UU+smfQW0uwCfYlca1YC1y79nMPLkixmW6Xgu 4HUAoJS6HHu6En/eTazMlzRsHzj4FVK6 =zZ3W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Atri Bhattacharya -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Jakub Rusinek -
Karsten König -
Mariusz Fik -
Martin Schlander -
Rastislav Krupanský -
Stefan Seyfried