Am Montag, 7. November 2011, 12:00:17 schrieb Andrea Turrini:

...

Hi all,

As pointed out in an Italian forum [1], the installer launched from the KDE liveCD is partially translated: it uses translated messages that come from lcn (as for libstorage) or upstream (as for cracklib) while messages from yast are missing.

I think this mixture of strings does not look good and it should be resolved in some way: either adding full translation for yast (limited to languages used in the liveCD), or removing completely translations from the installer (limited to incomplete languages). Obviously the former is better than the latter, provided that there is enough space on the medium.

Of course there is not enough space on the medium. And if cracklib and libstorage would split out -lang packages as they should do, their translations wouldn't be on CD either. Having not used the installer for a _long_ time, shouldn't it work like

On 11/08/2011 12:47 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote: this: * User selects language * (User set's up network only if the installer was unable to do it) * Installer downloads translations * Installer asks for remaining stuff (disc layout, package selection, you name it) * ... Most end user systems run behind a home router and have a running network connection right away. Those users that have to setup network by hand are surely capable to understand english IT terms like DHCP, netmaks and IP. Or does it already do that? -- Viele Grüße, Sascha

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-11-10 11:37, Stephan Kulow wrote:

We might want to change the live isos to only have english and more language supported by the installation though. For this we need to split yast2-trans into parts needed by installer and rest though.

As a translator, I would like the translations to be available on all install media. It pains me to hear that people have to install in English when I know that we translated it. I understand that space on the CDs is limited. Could not a method to download the particular language needed from internet be designed, so that the live system uses them? Like accessing /usr/share/locale/LANGUAGE/LC_MESSAGES/ on internet. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk67sasACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Uu9QCgi6ZI5c3Vh0wHf1hFrpwe+1KU 3VkAnA1/G9FmC/iyzLN8wm5jn3e0CN/y =VjMh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-11-10 12:31, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 12:12:43 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

I understand that space on the CDs is limited. Could not a method to download the particular language needed from internet be designed, so that the live system uses them? And how do you get internet on a live cd installer? Want to setup wlan through yast even though later you use NetworkManager?

Well, the moment the user sets up internet on the live (on all lives there are a lot of questions to answer and configure) the live can add dynamic features - like extra languages. You do that on the live setup, then it will work for the install phase. Or as an ADD-ON on flash usb or HD. I don't know. I just pop up the idea, now it is up for the devs to think it out. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk67t3MACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VnuACglAEJ7V19lh9ok+mtVDw4KkM/ oHcAniJk1pFpVuhU5HbEDaJp+1AydcwQ =Sn33 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 13:16:21 schrieb Graham Anderson:

On Thursday 10 Nov 2011 12:12:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I understand that space on the CDs is limited. Could not a method to download the particular language needed from internet be designed, so that the live system uses them?

Or remove some less important items like Gimp instead... why the hell are we dropping languages but keeping the byte hog and (probably not very frequently used by most) Gimp? How many languages do you use?

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/10/2011 07:36 AM, Stephan Kulow pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 13:16:21 schrieb Graham Anderson:

...

On Thursday 10 Nov 2011 12:12:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I understand that space on the CDs is limited. Could not a method to download the particular language needed from internet be designed, so that the live system uses them?

Or remove some less important items like Gimp instead... why the hell are we dropping languages but keeping the byte hog and (probably not very frequently used by most) Gimp? How many languages do you use?

Greetings, Stephan

It's not a question of how many languages an individual uses but a question of how many languages the community uses. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 10 Nov 2011 15:09:48 Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 08:42:43 schrieb Ken Schneider - openSUSE:

...

On 11/10/2011 07:36 AM, Stephan Kulow pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 13:16:21 schrieb Graham Anderson:

...

On Thursday 10 Nov 2011 12:12:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I understand that space on the CDs is limited. Could not a method to download the particular language needed from internet be designed, so that the live system uses them?

Or remove some less important items like Gimp instead... why the hell are we dropping languages but keeping the byte hog and (probably not very frequently used by most) Gimp?

How many languages do you use?

Greetings, Stephan

It's not a question of how many languages an individual uses but a question of how many languages the community uses.

Not sure why you added a reply-to.

We only have little data, but the last data we have says french IPs make up < 3% of our update traffic. And while I agree that Gimp is not used by most, I would think it's used by more than 3%. But that's just guessing - but someone has to do the guessing in absense of real data.

Greetings, Stephan

Someone who wishes to use Gimp will almost certainly be an existing or experienced user, and can easily find it online or with zypper/yast. Having only two languages on popular installation media potentially alienates/prevents a vast number of users from ever using openSUSE. The *last* thing I ever want to hear is something like: "Oh yeah I tried opensuse but I couldn't even install it in my language... I just installed ubuntu instead." Gimp isn't essential to adoption or installation, but being able to use your native language? I'd rate that pretty highly on any scale of importance or priority. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi, On Thu, 10 Nov 2011, Graham Anderson wrote:

On Thursday 10 Nov 2011 15:09:48 Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 08:42:43 schrieb Ken Schneider - openSUSE:

...

On 11/10/2011 07:36 AM, Stephan Kulow pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 13:16:21 schrieb Graham Anderson:

...

On Thursday 10 Nov 2011 12:12:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

...

...

...

I understand that space on the CDs is limited. Could not a method to download the particular language needed from internet be designed, so that the live system uses them?

Or remove some less important items like Gimp instead... why the hell are we dropping languages but keeping the byte hog and (probably not very frequently used by most) Gimp?

How many languages do you use?

...

...

It's not a question of how many languages an individual uses but a question of how many languages the community uses.

Not sure why you added a reply-to.

We only have little data, but the last data we have says french IPs make up < 3% of our update traffic. And while I agree that Gimp is not used by most, I would think it's used by more than 3%. But that's just guessing - but someone has to do the guessing in absense of real data.

Someone who wishes to use Gimp will almost certainly be an existing or experienced user, and can easily find it online or with zypper/yast.

Having only two languages on popular installation media potentially alienates/prevents a vast number of users from ever using openSUSE. The *last* thing I ever want to hear is something like: "Oh yeah I tried opensuse but I couldn't even install it in my language... I just installed ubuntu instead."

Gimp isn't essential to adoption or installation, but being able to use your native language? I'd rate that pretty highly on any scale of importance or priority.

My guess as one of the "longest" SUSE users and propagaters too (surely by this also one of the oldest, but I still know a dozen older ones) is: to catch a new user, his own language to see during the first step is much more important than to have all wanted features instantly present during the first move towards linux. Learned from my wife. ;-)) Viele Gruesse Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) -- Eberhard Moenkeberg Arbeitsgruppe IT-Infrastruktur E-Mail: emoenke@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1551 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gesellschaft fuer wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH Goettingen (GWDG) Am Fassberg 11, 37077 Goettingen URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: gwdg@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Prof. Dr. Ramin Yahyapour Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Prof. Dr. Christian Griesinger Sitz der Gesellschaft: Goettingen Registergericht: Goettingen Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/10/2011 03:38 PM, Martin Schlander pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

Torsdag den 10. november 2011 11:37:14 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2011, 11:05:59 schrieb Sascha Peilicke:

People wanting network downloads should prefer the much smaller NET iso. The live iso currently supports only english and german, the DVD supports much more languages. The 11.4 supported more languages, but as both GNOME and KDE grow with each release, I had to take down languages ;(

We might want to change the live isos to only have english and more language supported by the installation though. For this we need to split yast2-trans into parts needed by installer and rest though.

Maybe it's getting time (for 12.2) to do like e.g. Mandriva and make live"dvds" of about 1,5 gigs or so. So it's still a managable download size, but the experience out of the box could be much nicer, i.e. including translations, synaptiks and other important stuff.

I'm guessing a large proportion of the live isos go onto usb sticks these days anyway which aren't limited to 700 megs. And who doesn't have a dvd burner?

Exactly. Many flavors of USB sticks are cheap enough to buy 8Mb sticks and DVD burners today support dual layer. The cost of the dual layer has come down a lot as well. Better to have people supported with their natural language right at boot time and have them feel more at home with openSuSE. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 Reply-To: added for the lazy people that only want to use Reply-to-All on this list. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Thu 10 Nov 2011 09:38:59 PM CET schrieb Martin Schlander :

Torsdag den 10. november 2011 11:37:14 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

We might want to change the live isos to only have english and more language supported by the installation though. For this we need to split yast2-trans into parts needed by installer and rest though.

If you think it is worth the trouble, I could change yast2-trans accordingly. Please, open an enhancement bug or a openfate entry. Bonus points, if you propose package names and list files that must be available during installation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 10 Nov 2011 22:18:57 Peter Linnell wrote:

On 11/10/2011 09:48 PM, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

...

Am Thu 10 Nov 2011 09:38:59 PM CET schrieb Martin Schlander

:

...

Torsdag den 10. november 2011 11:37:14 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

We might want to change the live isos to only have english and more language supported by the installation though. For this we need to split yast2-trans into parts needed by installer and rest though.

If you think it is worth the trouble, I could change yast2-trans accordingly. Please, open an enhancement bug or a openfate entry.

Bonus points, if you propose package names and list files that must be available during installation.

I've added comments here: https://features.opensuse.org/308017

Please add technical details which would needed to implement this. I am sorry I am not a yast or installer expert.

Peter

I think choosing the language first is a great change for the installer and increasing the size of the images looks like it would be necessary to accommodate this unless we do as Sascha suggests and try to download the il8n packs via the net. If the live CD's are replaced by Live DVD's, what's the size we should be aiming for? How much common ground is there between the GNOME and KDE images and can we actually squeeze both desktops onto the same Live image? Can we keep the size reasonable if we do this? *Should* we put both desktops on the same live image if we can? (please lets not get distracted by any KDE Vs Gnome arguments for this). If we *can* squeeze both desktops onto a live DVD, why shouldn't the full DVD be boot-able as well? Hell, if we can make the full DVD boot-able, why have smaller sized media at all? And lastly, there will obviously be some resistance to dropping the live CD's. "Some people still use dialup", "Not everyone has a DVD burner/player" being the most obvious (valid) reasons to not wish to see this change. My own opinion on this is that if it takes a whole day to download a CD image via dial-up, there's no problem with waiting another 12 hours or even 2 or more days. We have torrents and metalink downloaders to accomodate this, nobody *needs* the images the same-day they are released. A small minority of users with only 1 computer that has no DVD burner or USB port shouldn't be considered for this decision, because dropping languages from the images (while necessary in the short term) is a big step backwards and we can't hinder adoption of the distro to accomodate 20 year old PC setups. Cheers the noo, Graham -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 21:38:59 schrieb Martin Schlander:

Torsdag den 10. november 2011 11:37:14 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2011, 11:05:59 schrieb Sascha Peilicke:

...

Most end user systems run behind a home router and have a running network connection right away. Those users that have to setup network by hand are surely capable to understand english IT terms like DHCP, netmaks and IP. Or does it already do that?

People wanting network downloads should prefer the much smaller NET iso. The live iso currently supports only english and german, the DVD supports much more languages. The 11.4 supported more languages, but as both GNOME and KDE grow with each release, I had to take down languages ;(

We might want to change the live isos to only have english and more language supported by the installation though. For this we need to split yast2-trans into parts needed by installer and rest though.

Maybe it's getting time (for 12.2) to do like e.g. Mandriva and make live"dvds" of about 1,5 gigs or so. So it's still a managable download size, but the experience out of the box could be much nicer, i.e. including translations, synaptiks and other important stuff.

I'm guessing a large proportion of the live isos go onto usb sticks these days anyway which aren't limited to 700 megs. And who doesn't have a dvd burner? But how many have free 2G sticks? Why not 1GiB?

And no, I have absolutely no interest in maintaining even more media sets. Left alone that noone beside me cares for fixing build of them, openqa is most likely also the only one testing them. If people want installer languages, we need to remove software from the live cd. If people want 1G media, we need to drop live cds. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 14. November 2011, 17:28:26 schrieb Martin Schlander:

Mandag den 14. november 2011 10:58:42 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

Am Donnerstag, 10. November 2011, 21:38:59 schrieb Martin Schlander:

...

Maybe it's getting time (for 12.2) to do like e.g. Mandriva and make live"dvds" of about 1,5 gigs or so. So it's still a managable download size, but the experience out of the box could be much nicer, i.e. including translations, synaptiks and other important stuff.

I'm guessing a large proportion of the live isos go onto usb sticks these days anyway which aren't limited to 700 megs. And who doesn't have a dvd burner?

But how many have free 2G sticks? Why not 1GiB?

And no, I have absolutely no interest in maintaining even more media sets. Left alone that noone beside me cares for fixing build of them, openqa is most likely also the only one testing them.

If people want installer languages, we need to remove software from the live cd. If people want 1G media, we need to drop live cds.

My idea was to drop the cd size isos. If 1 gb is sufficient to provide a full- featured, smooth experience that'd fine with me. But I think up to 2 GB is "fair" in terms of usb stick population and a managable download size - even for people with 1-2 mbit connections.

The point was to solve the problem of isos constantly outgrowing the cds, and give people a nice out of the box experience without having to download 3-400 megs of packages or more right after install anyway.

Of course it would be best if there was some way to only install the required languages and not all of them.

I'm fine with going from cd to 950MB USB media and it should be enough IMO to have most of it. People complained about live installer leaving too many language packages behind, so I wouldn't want every possible language package on there anyway - just some reliable way to trigger installation afterwards. The question is: how can we reach a supportable decision to leave cds behind? connect poll? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 16. November 2011, 17:32:13 schrieb Martin Schlander:

Onsdag den 16. november 2011 11:50:18 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

I'm fine with going from cd to 950MB USB media and it should be enough IMO to have most of it. People complained about live installer leaving too many language packages behind, so I wouldn't want every possible language package on there anyway - just some reliable way to trigger installation afterwards.

The question is: how can we reach a supportable decision to leave cds behind? connect poll?

Sounds good to me.

synaptiks and -desktop kernel should be the first candidates for inclusion on new roomy live isos imho :-) -desktop kernel is on x86_64 ISO and won't be on the i586 one as this is not a space problem but a problem of hardware compatibility

Greetings, Stephan -- Sent from openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org