[opensuse-factory] More Dependency frustration! (RANT)
Here's a list of some of the frustration I experienced trying to install RC1: Unselecting the yast-fingerprint reader deselected almost all of YaST!(qt, networking, etc) WTF???? Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I am constantly frustrated by all of these hardware dependencies that I DON'T have and should have to install: Bluetooth iPod Fingerprint? Like my 1999 Thinkpad 390X has that. irda - I have NEVER used this and it's bad to even install it. I've seen people's laptops get wiped from windows because they didn't know that their infrared was active. When i deselect this, it says it can't install laptop utils. WHY??? Why is this a dependency? Why is ANY hardware a dependency. Some of us don't have stuff like ISDN, Firewire, USB - yes, my Wallstreet powerbook doesn't even have USB so WHY should I have to install utilities to support USB? Granted, if I did get a cardbus USB card I would need it so I can kinda understand USB, but the rest? I've never even owned a firewire device. or an ISDN modem. The default install has TV apps? How about a popup that says - if you want to install your specific hardware, click here and select what you have. Sorry to rant, but I've complained about this since 10.0 was in beta. While hard drives are a lot bigger now, it's irriating to have to waste all this space on stuff I don't have, don't use and/or don't need. I could go on and on, but I'm done for now. I stick with openSUSE because I have used SuSE since v5.3, and no other distro has anything like YaST for configuration and I've always liked the selection that openSUSE offers. But while I not only run Linux on my Dual Core Celeron(overclocked 100%), I also run it on a 500Mhz P3 and a 266Mhz G3 among other older hardware. Having the same distro across platforms is such a great thing. Sorry if I am asking too much. It's definately gotten better, but it still has a ways to go. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
"Larry Stotler" <larrystotler@gmail.com> writes:
Here's a list of some of the frustration I experienced trying to install RC1:
Unselecting the yast-fingerprint reader deselected almost all of YaST!(qt, networking, etc) WTF???? Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I am constantly frustrated by all of these hardware dependencies that I DON'T have and should have to install:
You broke the YaST pattern.
Bluetooth iPod Fingerprint? Like my 1999 Thinkpad 390X has that. irda - I have NEVER used this and it's bad to even install it. I've seen people's laptops get wiped from windows because they didn't know that their infrared was active. When i deselect this, it says it can't install laptop utils. WHY??? Why is this a dependency? Why is ANY hardware a dependency.
The default is not your 390X but the patterns should be made in a way that you can deselect anything easily. Please do read about patterns in the wiki and file detailed bugreports,
Some of us don't have stuff like ISDN, Firewire, USB - yes, my Wallstreet powerbook doesn't even have USB so WHY should I have to install utilities to support USB? Granted, if I did get a cardbus USB card I would need it so I can kinda understand USB, but the rest? I've never even owned a firewire device. or an ISDN modem.
The default install has TV apps? How about a popup that says - if you want to install your specific hardware, click here and select what you have.
We do this already for the hardware drivers, so you only get the kernel-packages you need...
Sorry to rant, but I've complained about this since 10.0 was in beta. While hard drives are a lot bigger now, it's irriating to have to waste all this space on stuff I don't have, don't use and/or don't need.
I could go on and on, but I'm done for now. I stick with openSUSE because I have used SuSE since v5.3, and no other distro has anything like YaST for configuration and I've always liked the selection that openSUSE offers. But while I not only run Linux on my Dual Core Celeron(overclocked 100%), I also run it on a 500Mhz P3 and a 266Mhz G3 among other older hardware. Having the same distro across platforms is such a great thing.
Sorry if I am asking too much. It's definately gotten better, but it still has a ways to go.
Please create separate bugreports with details, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:53 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.de> wrote:
Unselecting the yast-fingerprint reader deselected almost all of YaST!(qt, networking, etc) WTF???? Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I am constantly frustrated by all of these hardware dependencies that I DON'T have and should have to install:
You broke the YaST pattern.
But WHY is it a pattern? How many systems actually used a fingerprint reader? 1%? less?
The default is not your 390X but the patterns should be made in a way that you can deselect anything easily. Please do read about patterns in the wiki and file detailed bugreports,
I'm all for the speed that patterns afford installation, and I'm even willing to allow compressed arhives of stuff that may be useful to be on the hard drive. If something is deslected from the pattern, is that because of a dependency or is it because the pattern requires it?
The default install has TV apps? How about a popup that says - if you want to install your specific hardware, click here and select what you have. We do this already for the hardware drivers, so you only get the kernel-packages you need...
But it installs KDETV and YaST-TV even though there are no TV devices installed. Same with the other hardware.
Please create separate bugreports with details,
That's another frustration. The few bugreports I've been involved with don't seem to get anything done. I figured out the deal with the atheros driver days ago and updated bugzilla and haven't seen any feedback. The fact that the new ath5k driver only supports a limited amount of hardware, but that it will be loaded for hardware that can't use it is a big issue in my book. That's why I am helping out, because I really think openSUSE is still the best overall system. I've offered to help create and manage a section dedicated to installing and running it on Old World Macs as an "not officially supported system", but that got me no feedback either. I have Fedora 8 on my one desktop, and it sucks at trying to make things work out of the box. You can add things to make it better, but then that's the best part of SuSE- YaST. Further, the fact that I'm not a programming limits my understanding of how to help make things better. I will try to document things better. Quite frankly, I have moved away from v10.3 because it's so slow in so many ways. v11.0 looks like such a big improvement. Thanx for taking the time to reply Andreas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
"Larry Stotler" <larrystotler@gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:53 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.de> wrote:
Unselecting the yast-fingerprint reader deselected almost all of YaST!(qt, networking, etc) WTF???? Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I am constantly frustrated by all of these hardware dependencies that I DON'T have and should have to install:
You broke the YaST pattern.
But WHY is it a pattern? How many systems actually used a fingerprint reader? 1%? less?
YaST is a pattern since you want everything together in general. You wanted to ask: Why is yast2-fingerprint a required (hard dependency) of the YaST pattern and not a recommended (soft dependency).
The default is not your 390X but the patterns should be made in a way that you can deselect anything easily. Please do read about patterns in the wiki and file detailed bugreports,
I'm all for the speed that patterns afford installation, and I'm even willing to allow compressed arhives of stuff that may be useful to be on the hard drive. If something is deslected from the pattern, is that because of a dependency or is it because the pattern requires it?
Btw. I don't understand your last sentence.
The default install has TV apps? How about a popup that says - if you want to install your specific hardware, click here and select what you have. We do this already for the hardware drivers, so you only get the kernel-packages you need...
But it installs KDETV and YaST-TV even though there are no TV devices installed. Same with the other hardware.
The philosophy here is that people might want to add it later on... Unfortunately the time for a fundamental change of the 11.0 patterns has gone, we will only consider minor tweaks. A fundamental change would need some discussion after 11.0 is released...
Please create separate bugreports with details,
That's another frustration. The few bugreports I've been involved with don't seem to get anything done. I figured out the deal with the atheros driver days ago and updated bugzilla and haven't seen any feedback. The fact that the new ath5k driver only supports a limited amount of hardware, but that it will be loaded for hardware that can't use it is a big issue in my book. That's why I am helping out, because I really think openSUSE is still the best overall system. I've offered to help create and manage a section dedicated to installing and running it on Old World Macs as an "not officially supported system", but that got me no feedback either.
For adding to the wiki, you don't need any permission.
I have Fedora 8 on my one desktop, and it sucks at trying to make things work out of the box. You can add things to make it better, but then that's the best part of SuSE- YaST.
Further, the fact that I'm not a programming limits my understanding of how to help make things better. I will try to document things better.
Quite frankly, I have moved away from v10.3 because it's so slow in so many ways. v11.0 looks like such a big improvement.
Glad to hear - and I hope we can get some of Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:50 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.de> wrote:
YaST is a pattern since you want everything together in general. You wanted to ask: Why is yast2-fingerprint a required (hard dependency) of the YaST pattern and not a recommended (soft dependency).
Ok, makes sense. So, what's the answer? Hard or soft and should it be the other?
If something is deslected from the pattern, is that because of a dependency or is it because the pattern requires it?
Btw. I don't understand your last sentence.
Basically, if it's in the pattern, does the pattern require it or because there is another dependency like hardware?
The philosophy here is that people might want to add it later on...
Understood. Keep the actual KEDTV in a compressed addon area of the drive then. Don't just install it. KDETV is set to install automatically. Again, how many people have a TV card? <5%? Then it should be installed unless the TV card is detected, which isn't until later when the hardware is detected. Why not do the hardware configuration in the beginning as well? I really like the fact that the user and root stuff was moved to the beginning.
Unfortunately the time for a fundamental change of the 11.0 patterns has gone, we will only consider minor tweaks. A fundamental change would need some discussion after 11.0 is released...
I realize that. I wish that I had been able to participate more in the Alpha stages, but I wasn't able to.for 11.0. I'll try to do more for 11.1.
For adding to the wiki, you don't need any permission.
No, but a little feedback would have been nice. An ok, that makes sense, let's remove full official support for Old World macs or, no, let's keep it official. Maybe I just didn't ask in the right place. Heck, are Old World Machines even officially supported? Can't remember. They are all 10 years old or older now. Even though I've used Linux and SuSE since 1999, in some ways I guess I'm still a n00b. Happens. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Larry Stotler wrote:
For adding to the wiki, you don't need any permission.
No, but a little feedback would have been nice. An ok, that makes sense, let's remove full official support for Old World macs or, no, let's keep it official. Maybe I just didn't ask in the right place. Heck, are Old World Machines even officially supported? Can't remember. They are all 10 years old or older now.
Larry, I've been testing on a 1999 G3 for a while now (and have helped squash several major bugs in this platform) - I'm about to try RC1 once it finishes download. Support from the back-room guys at Novell / SuSE has been pretty good, result is that 11.0 Beta3 is reasonably easy to install and very usable on my machine. I have some pages on my personal site that I was thinking of putting on the OSL wiki, but I couldn't see anywhere obvious to add them? Maybe a link at http://en.opensuse.org/Hardware to an entry at http://en.opensuse.org/HOWTOs#Architecture_.26_Platforms ?
Even though I've used Linux and SuSE since 1999, in some ways I guess I'm still a n00b. Happens.
Aren't most of us? That's a side-effect of technological progress! -- Cheers Richard (MQ) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Larry Stotler wrote:
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:50 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.de> wrote:
Btw. I don't understand your last sentence.
Basically, if it's in the pattern, does the pattern require it or because there is another dependency like hardware?
The philosophy here is that people might want to add it later on...
Understood. Keep the actual KEDTV in a compressed addon area of the drive then. Don't just install it. KDETV is set to install automatically. Again, how many people have a TV card? <5%? Then it should be installed unless the TV card is detected, which isn't until later when the hardware is detected. Why not do the hardware configuration in the beginning as well? I really like the fact that the user and root stuff was moved to the beginning.
Current zypp provides much better way to do it: - Have a pattern/metapackage/anything which provides TV applications (Pattern must be well tuned to not install KDETV in GNOME and GNOME TV in KDE.) - This pattern will be automatically soft-selected, if USB ID or PCI ID of TV card is detected. It is not an easy task, because on one side you need a list of all supported TV cards, on the other side you have to make pattern desktop dependent. There are two different ways, how they can be supported: V4L stream (supported by kernel) and video overlay (supported by X). I did this with nut: If USB UPS is present, then it should be selected for installation. I guess that it could be an approach for future. rpm -q --supplements nut modalias(usb:v0592p0002d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) modalias(usb:v06DAp0002d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) modalias(usb:v09AEp0001d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) modalias(usb:v0665p5161d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) modalias(usb:v05B8p0000d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) modalias(usb:v0001p0000d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) modalias(usb:vFFFFp0000d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) modalias(usb:v06DAp0003d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) modalias(usb:v0F03p0001d*dc*dsc*dp*ic*isc*ip*) -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: sbrabec@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 966, +49 911 740538747 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Stanislav Brabec <sbrabec@suse.cz> wrote:
Current zypp provides much better way to do it: - Have a pattern/metapackage/anything which provides TV applications (Pattern must be well tuned to not install KDETV in GNOME and GNOME TV in KDE.) - This pattern will be automatically soft-selected, if USB ID or PCI ID of TV card is detected.
It is not an easy task, because on one side you need a list of all supported TV cards, on the other side you have to make pattern desktop dependent. There are two different ways, how they can be supported: V4L stream (supported by kernel) and video overlay (supported by X).
Couldn't you just parse the kernel modules for the hardware and use that as a guide? Most of those devices should be supported in the main line kernel by now. I've used a TV card before, and I'm looking into an HDTV card, but don't really expect to use it in my laptop.
Am Freitag 30 Mai 2008 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:
The default is not your 390X but the patterns should be made in a way that you can deselect anything easily. Please do read about patterns in the wiki and file detailed bugreports,
Yeah, notice the reporter of bug 304686 :) Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> wrote:
Yeah, notice the reporter of bug 304686 :)
Yeah. If 1 person out of 100,000 uses it, it should be a default.....groan. I wish the installer could scan for hardware and just install drivers for what is there and have the rest in a compressed file(s) on the drive IN Case you need it. Probably asking to much though. Since I'm not a programmer, I have no idea how hard that would be to setup. Maybe a check list for experts? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Larry Stotler -
Richard (MQ) -
Stanislav Brabec -
Stephan Kulow