[opensuse-factory] Public access to Factory:snapshot which ALL repositories are built against

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Sergey Kondakov

18 Nov 2015 18 Nov '15

03:48

Hello, all whom it may concern. I just a guy who spent last 1.5 years trying to make an openSUSE live & installable build which would be fully ready for advanced desktop activity, full-scale network connectivity, global censorship/surveillance-avoidance and hardware forensic-grade diagnostics. Basing such builds on release versions of distributions and trying to provide fresh software are mutually exclusive approaches, so I've been meaning to test out "rolling openSUSE release" which made quite a stir on Russian Linux-news sites some time ago. Which I did with the deprecation of 13.2 and the attempt of minimizing maintenance costs by putting openSUSE on the same foundation as commercial SUSE (the "Leap" thing). Imagine my surprise in finding out that not only there were no counter-breakage automation work done, which is needed for true "rolling" to accommodate the nature of introducing sudden and major updates, but all openSUSE users are deprived access from Factory:snapshot repo against which all other OBS repoes are built, meaning that anything from any repo may break at any time and the only solutions are: 1) wait up to the week until snapshot is updated (and that only if accessible repo is truly Factory:standard and not something else entirely); 2) branch the broken thing and built it against Factory:standard yourself (again, only if accessible repo is truly Factory:standard and not something else entirely); 3) promptly make all the work to include it into the official repo, appease its owner and stop using an unofficial one. That's right, packages are built against Factory:snapshot but users are given only Factory:standard (or worse), any attempts to get the snapshot are redirected at "the repo" outside of OBS. See more detailed complaint at https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=954697 The only almost sane explanation for such state of affairs that I may come up with, judging by the rhetoric, is an assumption about some, what we call in Russia, "effective manager" trying to 1) force The Community to become free testers and maintainers by disallowing it to comfortably use "The Product" their own way; 2) remove Community "competitors" from making better or different "The Tumbleweed Product" than he is. Therefore, I urge any SUSE-unaffiliated Community members along with corporates who are not afraid to stand up, if there are any, if not work on proper binary rolling distro, to at least demand public access of Factory:snapshot for themselves and others. Without it I and anyone making Factory live builds would be forced, at best, to continue fiddle around with slowly bit-rotting "release" openSUSE versions or, at worst, abandon openSUSE and get back to the old ways of Gentoo or something. Otherwise, why even have something like kiwi and SUSEStudio if you're not going to let users go outside of corporate boss' vision ? And even then, he's your boss, not ours. Please, do anything that may be necessary for this and vote in https://features.opensuse.org/319862 (which most likely is futile since corporates never bother themselves with "peasant" opinions, it seems). Some other useful rolling openSUSE ideas are: https://features.opensuse.org/309314 https://features.opensuse.org/310712 https://features.opensuse.org/307735

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Jimmy Berry

18 Nov 18 Nov

05:48

...

From what I heard in discussions the proper solution is to write some code to all Factory:Snapshot to be triggered alongside Tumbleweed so

Leap standardized on SLE base, not Tumblweed. The whole Factory, Factory:Snapshot, and Tumbleweed is kinda funky since like you said you cannot build against true Tumbleweed in other obs repositories. It really is a problem. I've had to do what you mentioned (branch and build against factory) a couple times as a temporary fix. they can be in sync. That would seem to solve the problem, rather than exposing Factory:Snapshot as a distro which you seem to imply. That would only make things even more confusing. I agree that it really needs to be addressed as it is: a) somewhat convoluted and counter intuitive, and b) causes real problems. -- Jimmy On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Sergey Kondakov wrote:

...

Hello, all whom it may concern. I just a guy who spent last 1.5 years trying to make an openSUSE live & installable build which would be fully ready for advanced desktop activity, full-scale network connectivity, global censorship/surveillance-avoidance and hardware forensic-grade diagnostics. Basing such builds on release versions of distributions and trying to provide fresh software are mutually exclusive approaches, so I've been meaning to test out "rolling openSUSE release" which made quite a stir on Russian Linux-news sites some time ago. Which I did with the deprecation of 13.2 and the attempt of minimizing maintenance costs by putting openSUSE on the same foundation as commercial SUSE (the "Leap" thing).

Imagine my surprise in finding out that not only there were no counter-breakage automation work done, which is needed for true "rolling" to accommodate the nature of introducing sudden and major updates, but all openSUSE users are deprived access from Factory:snapshot repo against which all other OBS repoes are built, meaning that anything from any repo may break at any time and the only solutions are: 1) wait up to the week until snapshot is updated (and that only if accessible repo is truly Factory:standard and not something else entirely); 2) branch the broken thing and built it against Factory:standard yourself (again, only if accessible repo is truly Factory:standard and not something else entirely); 3) promptly make all the work to include it into the official repo, appease its owner and stop using an unofficial one. That's right, packages are built against Factory:snapshot but users are given only Factory:standard (or worse), any attempts to get the snapshot are redirected at "the repo" outside of OBS. See more detailed complaint at https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=954697

The only almost sane explanation for such state of affairs that I may come up with, judging by the rhetoric, is an assumption about some, what we call in Russia, "effective manager" trying to 1) force The Community to become free testers and maintainers by disallowing it to comfortably use "The Product" their own way; 2) remove Community "competitors" from making better or different "The Tumbleweed Product" than he is.

Therefore, I urge any SUSE-unaffiliated Community members along with corporates who are not afraid to stand up, if there are any, if not work on proper binary rolling distro, to at least demand public access of Factory:snapshot for themselves and others. Without it I and anyone making Factory live builds would be forced, at best, to continue fiddle around with slowly bit-rotting "release" openSUSE versions or, at worst, abandon openSUSE and get back to the old ways of Gentoo or something.

Otherwise, why even have something like kiwi and SUSEStudio if you're not going to let users go outside of corporate boss' vision ? And even then, he's your boss, not ours.

Please, do anything that may be necessary for this and vote in https://features.opensuse.org/319862 (which most likely is futile since corporates never bother themselves with "peasant" opinions, it seems). Some other useful rolling openSUSE ideas are: https://features.opensuse.org/309314 https://features.opensuse.org/310712 https://features.opensuse.org/307735

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

10:04

On 18 November 2015 at 06:48, Jimmy Berry wrote:

...

Leap standardized on SLE base, not Tumblweed.

The whole Factory, Factory:Snapshot, and Tumbleweed is kinda funky since like you said you cannot build against true Tumbleweed in other obs repositories. It really is a problem. I've had to do what you mentioned (branch and build against factory) a couple times as a temporary fix.

From what I heard in discussions the proper solution is to write some code to all Factory:Snapshot to be triggered alongside Tumbleweed so they can be in sync. That would seem to solve the problem, rather than exposing Factory:Snapshot as a distro which you seem to imply. That would only make things even more confusing.

I agree that it really needs to be addressed as it is: a) somewhat convoluted and counter intuitive, and b) causes real problems.

--

In order to fix this issue, we need OBS to be able to support this https://features.opensuse.org/318339 Until then, Factory:Snapshot and Factory:Standard will continue to be the only two options we'll have to build packages intended for Tumbleweed And because the OP doesn't seem to understand despite my efforts to explain this in the earlier bug, neither Factory:Snapshot nor Factory:Standard is synonymous with Tumbleweed. Factory:Snapshot is a *manually* chosen frozen point in time of Factory. Sometimes it's very close to Tumbleweed. Sometimes it's less close (Depending on how long since the last time it was manually synced). It's always a little older than Tumbleweed. Without the above feature, we can't make it the same, because there is a fundamental lag between when a Factory build starts being tested before it gets published, and during that 1-2 days lag, Factory moves with new submissions People wouldn't be happy if we built against untested code. People wouldn't be happy if we froze submissions for 2 days in order to see if that build should be the next Factory:snapshot every time we had a new build under testing, because we ALWAYS have a new build under testing, so we'd never release anything.... Factory:Standard is the automatic build target of Factory. Untested, unproven, everything that's been accepted into the openSUSE:Factory process. Sometimes it is very close to Tumbleweed, sometimes its less close (Depending on how long since the last snapshot of Tumbleweed past tested). It's always a little *newer* than Tumbleweed. Depending on what you're building, Factory:snapshot or Factory:standard should, most of the time, give you a good enough approximation of Tumbleweed to build stuff for Tumbleweed. Of course, the best way of building something for Tumbleweed, is to _submit your stuff to Factory_. Even when OBS supports building against Tumbleweed properly, it will always be better to have your packages in the main distro rather than as a custom OBS project that is without testing and community all working on it together. Either way, if you want this fixed, less conspiracy theories please and more contributing to the Build Service -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Sergey Kondakov

17:42

On 18.11.2015 15:04, Richard Brown wrote:

...

In order to fix this issue, we need OBS to be able to support this

https://features.opensuse.org/318339

Until then, Factory:Snapshot and Factory:Standard will continue to be the only two options we'll have to build packages intended for Tumbleweed

And because the OP doesn't seem to understand despite my efforts to explain this in the earlier bug, neither Factory:Snapshot nor Factory:Standard is synonymous with Tumbleweed.

It seems that you too don't understand something regardless of my attempts to phrase it: it _doesn't matter_ what you call "Tumbleweed". What matters is the fact that all repoes are built against Factory:snapshot which is inaccessible. So for them not to break for no good reason you need either open it up or built them against what is accessible because you're redirecting all access attempts for both Snapshot and Standard to "Tumbleweed" repo, whatever it is. And if that isn't either one of them, it's even more messy.

...

Factory:Snapshot is a *manually* chosen frozen point in time of Factory. Sometimes it's very close to Tumbleweed. Sometimes it's less close (Depending on how long since the last time it was manually synced). It's always a little older than Tumbleweed. Without the above feature, we can't make it the same, because there is a fundamental lag between when a Factory build starts being tested before it gets published, and during that 1-2 days lag, Factory moves with new submissions People wouldn't be happy if we built against untested code. People wouldn't be happy if we froze submissions for 2 days in order to see if that build should be the next Factory:snapshot every time we had a new build under testing, because we ALWAYS have a new build under testing, so we'd never release anything....

OK, but what exactly is "being tested" ? Is it the Factory:snapshot on update of which "tests" and all repo rebuilds start ? Why then you don't just postpone publishing and build-usage of that snapshot, synchronize it with publishing of what you call "TW" ? But not, that doesn't make sense either. Why the hell a snapshot would be older than "TW" repo if its "TW" repo that is being "tested" ? Shouldn't "TW" be older ? Why aren't they the same ? Does real "TW" snapshot gets dropped without publishing if it doesn't pass said "tests" ? Anyway, whatever holds off building against what's publicly available, if you can't fix it in adequate time, then it's time for workarounds, like publicising Factory:snapshot because having all the repoes potentially broken is absolutely unacceptable. The only reason you don't consider it as giant problem is because you don't use it and don't even see as part of your build process. But it is a part of mine, for example. And yes, that's is an ugly workaround for another workarounds because, if I understood you correctly now, "TW" repo is something living completely outside of normal OBS process. And while normal OBS process has its own shortcomings, that one is even worse. But that's how you've done it, so _you fix it_, not just wait until all people are forced to build by your rules. Again, it comes down to what "TW" is: a rolling release in itself or a fancy name for testing-grade bleeding edge, "raw meat" for true releases ? If the former, you need to step up your game.

...

Factory:Standard is the automatic build target of Factory. Untested, unproven, everything that's been accepted into the openSUSE:Factory process. Sometimes it is very close to Tumbleweed, sometimes its less close (Depending on how long since the last snapshot of Tumbleweed past tested). It's always a little *newer* than Tumbleweed.

And it moves to fast to build against it at all. Until proposed in bug#954697 changes of publishing and rebuilding, at least. Until then we need reliably available snapshots of some kind.

...

Depending on what you're building, Factory:snapshot or Factory:standard should, most of the time, give you a good enough approximation of Tumbleweed to build stuff for Tumbleweed.

That's not good enough, and worse, even if "TW" is available for building / snapshot is available for access, the difference between its publishing time and repoes' build & publishing is a problem on its own. To fix that the repoes should start rebuilding at the same time as you start your "tests" and be allowed to publicise at the same time as new true "TW" snapshot.

...

Of course, the best way of building something for Tumbleweed, is to _submit your stuff to Factory_. Even when OBS supports building against Tumbleweed properly, it will always be better to have your packages in the main distro rather than as a custom OBS project that is without testing and community all working on it together.

Either way, if you want this fixed, less conspiracy theories please and more contributing to the Build Service

I can't make an entire distro build and fix all world's problems at the same time while doing it for free. Making packages is my secondary priority, making them properly is tertiary. But I need to make my distro build. Update for the damn thing already been postponed for far too long and I have other things to do. And I shouldn't have to. Because OBS shouldn't be only about making official packages for you to put into TW to later put into Leap to then put into SLE. Or, at least, not right away. RPM specs are annoying, doing them properly sucks. On 18.11.2015 18:41, Tomáš Čech wrote:

...

Hi,

It would be nice if you could separate your hatred against SUSE company from the technical points. Technical points are interesting, those emotional agitations not.

Best regards,

Tomas Cech

It's not "hatred against SUSE company", it's hatred against any self-important single-minded group that thinks that dissenting opinion is wrong by default and should be ignored and thwarted at all costs, which is prevalent in any corporate environments due to bosses selecting yes-men for themselves as attempt to avoid "challenge" from "unworthy" underlings. Your answer is nothing more than a reciprocal "emotional agitation" for which the same stands only without any technical point. Judging by discussion in http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00453.html it seems as a systematic approach, in-company policy based on common mentality. Therefore I strongly advise to meditate on the idea that sometimes unwanted "emotional agitations" may be a result of fair judgement of your actions or inactions.

Tomáš Čech

19:45

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:42:52PM +0500, Sergey Kondakov wrote:

...

On 18.11.2015 18:41, Tomáš Čech wrote:

...
Hi,

It would be nice if you could separate your hatred against SUSE company from the technical points. Technical points are interesting, those emotional agitations not.

Best regards,

Tomas Cech

I will not step in into technical discussion as I'm know little about the process and will (hopefuly) read replies from the people who knows more about that. So only reply to "my part".

...

It's not "hatred against SUSE company", it's hatred against any self-important single-minded group that thinks that dissenting opinion is wrong by default and should be ignored and thwarted at all costs, which is prevalent in any corporate environments due to bosses selecting yes-men for themselves as attempt to avoid "challenge" from "unworthy" underlings.

In that case you should address them (or us? I'm not sure in which category you place me).

...

Your answer is nothing more than a reciprocal "emotional agitation" for which the same stands only without any technical point. Judging by discussion in http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00453.html it seems as a systematic approach, in-company policy based on common mentality. Therefore I strongly advise to meditate on the idea that sometimes unwanted "emotional agitations" may be a result of fair judgement of your actions or inactions.

I'm sorry you find my e-mail as systematic attack, it was reminder to moderator. I'd like to see technical discussion because I find the topic interesting (together with reproducible builds). All I meant was - if your frustration is result of some long time fight against 'self-important single-minded group ...' you could write earlier in less offensive and more factual way. IMHO you could target wider audience that way. BTW I know that feeling. Best regards, Tomas Cech

Sergey Kondakov

19 Nov 19 Nov

20:21

On 19.11.2015 00:45, Tomáš Čech wrote:

...

I'm sorry you find my e-mail as systematic attack, it was reminder to moderator.

I haven't wrote about a "systematic attack", I wrote about "systematic approach" of ignoring and/or shutting down opposing opinions or even non-common goals of other openSUSE users.

...

All I meant was - if your frustration is result of some long time fight against 'self-important single-minded group ...' you could write earlier in less offensive and more factual way. IMHO you could target wider audience that way.

It's not that it's a "long time fight against" anybody, it's just not what should be expected from FOSS Community participants even if they are on corporate payroll. It seems there is a despicable censorship feature on this list. And openSUSE officials developed careless attitude to un-official repoes as if they are only representatives of The Community. That way, hacky "solutions" to un-clear problems of company repoes are immediately accepted but any problems of non-company repos, including ones stemming from those hacky "solutions", can be freely spat upon, ignored for months, years or forever. Like this - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00381.html - I actually wanted to write about this thing too for a while now, even before trying "The Tumbleweed Product". And the reason for this is clear even if labelled as "conspiracy theory". Then packages go into official repoes, they end up in SLE, and that adds features without expenditure which brings easy money. But in un-official repoes people are developing features for themselves, it's not profitable to help them but "incentivizing" them to go official may be so. And incentive may come from making that easy... or from making other things hard. But it's true that "less offensive and more factual way" is always warranted. Or at least "less overtly offensive". Talking mad disrespectful shit in seemingly polite way and appear civil, like that "unfortunately this person isn't willing to progress" part. That's an art.

...

BTW I know that feeling.

I appreciate the sympathy.

Martin Pluskal

21:03

Dne 19.11.2015 v 21:21 Sergey Kondakov napsal(a):

...

On 19.11.2015 00:45, Tomáš Čech wrote:

...
I'm sorry you find my e-mail as systematic attack, it was reminder to moderator.

I haven't wrote about a "systematic attack", I wrote about "systematic approach" of ignoring and/or shutting down opposing opinions or even non-common goals of other openSUSE users.

...
All I meant was - if your frustration is result of some long time fight against 'self-important single-minded group ...' you could write earlier in less offensive and more factual way. IMHO you could target wider audience that way.

It's not that it's a "long time fight against" anybody, it's just not what should be expected from FOSS Community participants even if they are on corporate payroll. It seems there is a despicable censorship feature on this list. And openSUSE officials developed careless attitude to un-official repoes as if they are only representatives of The Community. That way, hacky "solutions" to un-clear problems of company repoes are immediately accepted but any problems of non-company repos, including ones stemming from those hacky "solutions", can be freely spat upon, ignored for months, years or forever. Like this - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00381.html - I actually wanted to write about this thing too for a while now, even before trying "The Tumbleweed Product".

And the reason for this is clear even if labelled as "conspiracy theory". Then packages go into official repoes, they end up in SLE, and that adds features without expenditure which brings easy money. But in un-official repoes people are developing features for themselves, it's not profitable to help them but "incentivizing" them to go official may be so. And incentive may come from making that easy... or from making other things hard.

But it's true that "less offensive and more factual way" is always warranted. Or at least "less overtly offensive". Talking mad disrespectful shit in seemingly polite way and appear civil, like that "unfortunately this person isn't willing to progress" part. That's an art.

...
BTW I know that feeling.

I appreciate the sympathy.

Hi I guess that you failed to understand that Tomáš Čech agrees with you on technical level, yet he disagrees with ad hominem's and accusations you are making. Furthermore to speak openly, fact that you looked up post by Tomas, on unrelated topic and mention it several time as some sort of example of behavior which offends you makes you look like a very vindictive person, eager to personally attack someone who dares to disagree with you. Furthermore, would it kill you to break lines at 78 or 80 characters as most people in this ml do? Martin Pluskal Proud member of self-important single-minded group

Sergey Kondakov

23 Nov 23 Nov

07:22

On 20.11.2015 02:03, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...

Hi I guess that you failed to understand that Tomáš Čech agrees with you on technical level, yet he disagrees with ad hominem's and accusations you are making.

I guess you've failed to notice that I have no problem with him. And that I was referring to Lars Müller's words, not Tomáš'es.

...

Furthermore to speak openly, fact that you looked up post by Tomas, on unrelated topic and mention it several time as some sort of example of behavior which offends you makes you look like a very vindictive person, eager to personally attack someone who dares to disagree with you.

So, a guy gets threatened with forced silencing in FOSS community on account of repeated misbehaviour or, as Lars Müller put it, "unwillingness to progress" and I'm the "very vindictive person" ? The only thing I did is looked for November's opensuse-factory mail archive to make sure that someone else didn't already started the discussion about "TW" repo madness. And just that little glance showed multiple accounts of SUSE employees acting in such anti-Comminuty manner.

...

Furthermore, would it kill you to break lines at 78 or 80 characters as most people in this ml do?

I wasn't made aware of the unwritten rules of writing to you. Will it kill you not to be an asshole form the start about it ? But I guess, everyone here is a badass that uses console mail client without reflow support, huh.

...

Martin Pluskal Proud member of self-important single-minded group

And it's evident that you, people, do take excessive pride in your work.

Martin Pluskal

09:11

On Monday 23 of November 2015 12:22:59 Sergey Kondakov wrote:

...

On 20.11.2015 02:03, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...
Hi

I guess that you failed to understand that Tomáš Čech agrees with you

on technical level, yet he disagrees with ad hominem's and accusations you are making.

I guess you've failed to notice that I have no problem with him. And that I was referring to Lars Müller's words, not Tomáš'es.

...
Furthermore to speak openly, fact that you looked up post by Tomas, on unrelated topic and mention it several time as some sort of example of behavior which offends you makes you look like a very vindictive person, eager to personally attack someone who dares to disagree with you.

So, a guy gets threatened with forced silencing in FOSS community on account of repeated misbehaviour or, as Lars Müller put it, "unwillingness to progress" and I'm the "very vindictive person" ? The only thing I did is looked for November's opensuse-factory mail archive to make sure that someone else didn't already started the discussion about "TW" repo madness. And just that little glance showed multiple accounts of SUSE employees acting in such anti-Comminuty manner.

...
Furthermore, would it kill you to break lines at 78 or 80 characters as most people in this ml do?

I wasn't made aware of the unwritten rules of writing to you. Will it kill you not to be an asshole form the start about it ? What unwritten rule - I am just asking you to break lines, also "form the start" implies that there was something more than one, just one sentence.

Furthermore, you seem to be offended by my request, you so far seem to be offended by allmost every reply you get here.

...

But I guess, everyone here is a badass that uses console mail client without reflow support, huh. Sure and we are all looking down on you (even though I am writing this from kmail, I feel very badass about it).

...
Martin Pluskal Proud member of self-important single-minded group

And it's evident that you, people, do take excessive pride in your work. Of course

Martin Pluskal Proud asshole

Sergey Kondakov

10:01

On 23.11.2015 14:11, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...

What unwritten rule - I am just asking you to break lines, also "form the start" implies that there was something more than one, just one sentence.

No, "asking" starts from "the magic word" and that word isn't "kill". And no, it actually implies the opposite, that you started using passive-aggressive language right from that one, first sentence. Usage of which in your own ad hominem attack (which your labelling of my personality is) is a hypocrisy.

...

Furthermore, you seem to be offended by my request, you so far seem to be offended by allmost every reply you get here.

Well, not everyone is a proud asshole. And I'm mostly offended by repository discrimination and the idea of censorship in FOSS. But what is my mind state to you ? And cut the crap. Your tone and content of these emails strongly suggest defensive reaction to the offense from the "single-minded group" and such. Which means you're the one strongly offended. Well, good, because you probably know it's true.

...

Sure and we are all looking down on you (even though I am writing this from kmail, I feel very badass about it).

If by "everyone" you mean the only guy who impolitely demanded wrapped lines, yes, it seems you are. Actually, I was thinking about setting my emails and text editors to 80 character wraps but am unsure about it because in times of GUI, reflow email feature & dynamic wrap text editor feature and wide screens this is some retrograde bullshit. So I only do it then it's required. Is it an official mailing list rule or your personal claim ?

...

Martin Pluskal

Proud asshole

Martin Pluskal

10:20

...

On 23.11.2015 14:11, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...
What unwritten rule - I am just asking you to break lines, also "form the start" implies that there was something more than one, just one sentence.

No, "asking" starts from "the magic word" and that word isn't "kill". No, it does not. And no, it actually implies the opposite, that you started using passive-aggressive language right from that one, first sentence. Asking someone if it would kill them to do something is pretty far from being

On Monday 23 of November 2015 15:01:19 Sergey Kondakov wrote: passive agressive, it might be blunt but it is actually pretty direct

...

Usage of which in your own ad hominem attack (which your labelling of my personality is) is a hypocrisy. You seem to fail to understand what "ad hominem" is as well as you fail to understand what "passive agressive means - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Critisising someones behavior or even labeling someone is not ad hominem.

...

...
Furthermore, you seem to be offended by my request, you so far seem to be offended by allmost every reply you get here.

...

Well, not everyone is a proud asshole. World would be much nicer if everybody was. And I'm mostly offended by repository discrimination and the idea of censorship in FOSS. But what is my mind state to you ? You mention discrimination, which is in case of repositories and home/devel

That is your speculation project intentional, as was already explained to you several times. If you don't like it, feel free to run your own buildservice/create your own distribution ... Ad this so called censorship, user which violated several guiding principles of openSUSE, and contiuned in his behavior got banned after failing to comply with request/warning issued by board - which is something that will happen to you in most FOSS communities.

...

And cut the crap. Your tone and content of these emails strongly suggest defensive reaction to the offense from the "single-minded group" and such. Which means you're the one strongly offended. Well, good, because you probably know it's true.

I doubt that there is anything I could say that would change your mind about it anyways, so no point in further discussing this.

...

...
Sure and we are all looking down on you (even though I am writing this from kmail, I feel very badass about it).

If by "everyone" you mean the only guy who impolitely demanded wrapped lines, yes, it seems you are.

Wait I minute, so you are offended by me being impolite towards you? Your so far grossly impolite mails are ok, but when you are subject of impoliteness its suddenly not ok?

...

Actually, I was thinking about setting my emails and text editors to 80 character wraps but am unsure about it because in times of GUI, reflow email feature & dynamic wrap text editor feature and wide screens this is some retrograde bullshit. So I only do it then it's required. Is it an official mailing list rule or your personal claim ?

Of course it is just my personal claim :) See: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette Martin Pluskal Even prouder asshole

Sergey Kondakov

12:39

On 23.11.2015 15:20, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...

On Monday 23 of November 2015 15:01:19 Sergey Kondakov wrote:

...
On 23.11.2015 14:11, Martin Pluskal wrote:

...
What unwritten rule - I am just asking you to break lines, also "form the start" implies that there was something more than one, just one sentence.

No, "asking" starts from "the magic word" and that word isn't "kill". No, it does not.

Yes, it does. Well, at least in my country they teach that in a kindergarden.

...

...
And no, it actually implies the opposite, that you started using passive-aggressive language right from that one, first sentence. Asking someone if it would kill them to do something is pretty far from being passive agressive, it might be blunt but it is actually pretty direct

No, it implies that the "asked" party is unreasonably stubborn which can be determined only after getting some kind of answer which you didn't because you've started with that phrase. And even then, you're still implying that someone owes you something unless doing it is fatal for them. Wrapping text isn't going to kill anyone but it's not for you to demand in such a way. In fact, anything isn't for you to demand in such a way from a stranger.

...

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Usage of which in your own ad hominem attack (which your labelling of my personality is) is a hypocrisy. You seem to fail to understand what "ad hominem" is as well as you fail to understand what "passive agressive means - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Critisising someones behavior or even labeling someone is not ad hominem.

It is, you are literally attacking personality instead of discussing issue at hand.

...

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Furthermore, you seem to be offended by my request, you so far seem to be offended by allmost every reply you get here.

That is your speculation

Now you are literally talking to yourself...

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Well, not everyone is a proud asshole. World would be much nicer if everybody was.

No, it won't. It would literally be the end of the human civilization.

...

...
And I'm mostly offended by repository discrimination and the idea of censorship in FOSS. But what is my mind state to you ? You mention discrimination, which is in case of repositories and home/devel project intentional, as was already explained to you several times. If you don't like it, feel free to run your own buildservice/create your own distribution ...

I've noticed that fighting against your users widening the scope of usage for you project is intentional. It's also quite insane for a FOSS project. Why the hell would you make public access to your OBS if you don't want people to benefit from it ? And what's more important, help each other out.

...

Ad this so called censorship, user which violated several guiding principles of openSUSE, and contiuned in his behavior got banned after failing to comply with request/warning issued by board - which is something that will happen to you in most FOSS communities.

"The board" ? In my >10 years in FOSS I have never stumbled on any "boards" in any communities. And not even most violently pissed off project leaders would allow themselves such a thing as censorship.

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Sure and we are all looking down on you (even though I am writing this from kmail, I feel very badass about it).

If by "everyone" you mean the only guy who impolitely demanded wrapped lines, yes, it seems you are.

Wait I minute, so you are offended by me being impolite towards you? Your so far grossly impolite mails are ok, but when you are subject of impoliteness its suddenly not ok?

No, my impoliteness is not okay, But you trying out sarcastically imply that your behaviour is proper and mine not while at the same time being impolite is also a hypocrisy. Prideful assholes who defend censorship are its exemplary abusers, they are one of the reasons it should not exist in the first place.

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Actually, I was thinking about setting my emails and text editors to 80 character wraps but am unsure about it because in times of GUI, reflow email feature & dynamic wrap text editor feature and wide screens this is some retrograde bullshit. So I only do it then it's required. Is it an official mailing list rule or your personal claim ?

Of course it is just my personal claim :) See: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette

Martin Pluskal

Even prouder asshole

It seems so, since I can't find mentions of sender-side text wraps but I did find this piece: "Personal attacks or threats of any kind are unacceptable on any openSUSE mail list". So, what's with all the character trait evaluation bullshit ? In-corporate behaviour is more questionable because workers make decisions for whole openSUSE Community, they have more power which means more responsibility. You can't try to use my supposed personal faults as defence against my "self-important single-minded group", common mentality argument which you appear to take personaly.

Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar

12:57

(this is just a reply to ANY mail in this thread, not explicitly to the mail it references in reply-to:) Please guys - switch down a gear or two... Whereas Sergey's original claim had substance and merit in the topic (one can argue about the choice of words - but I won't go there), the rest of the thread is just boring rambling and it rather looks like Gorillas hammering their chests trying to show off who is stronger. To bring this all back to the topic: As Stephan posted in -packaging (see http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse -packaging/2015-11/msg00054.html ) he and I actually tried to DO something about the situation (and we saved our energy for the work to be done, not for posting here) It won't be a perfect situation for every edge case (I frankly doubt that would be possible) - and timings in random projects will still remain an issue (once we flag the Tumbleweed snapshot for OBS to sync it to the FTP tree, another process starts syncing it to openSUSE:Factory/snapshot; they are not executed 100% in sync, so one will always be 'a bit faster', but we're now talking hours instead of days). The issue for any building project is that they start their build once snapshot is released (so they build against what the user gets) - still adding a delay for the user to also get updates for those packages. Anyway, let's see how well this works out (also with the newly added load on the OBS Workers, as /snapshot will now be much more often updated). Let's step back, observe the current solution, asses its merits and shortcomings.. and THEN get back in a PROPER discussion together if there is change needed and what can reasonably be done. Thank you. Cheers, Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

20 Nov 20 Nov

09:20

Hi Sergey, Am 19.11.2015 um 21:21 schrieb Sergey Kondakov:

...

And the reason for this is clear even if labelled as "conspiracy theory". Then packages go into official repoes, they end up in SLE

And here you are wrong. Packages in SLES are "hand-selected" because just because "it is in tumbleweed" does not make anyone wanting to support it for 10 years. So no need to discuss any further for now. Please get your facts correct first, because only then we can discuss your valid points without making yourself look stupid (sorry). Just to set things straight: * I am also in favour of having the snapshot repository being exactly what is the latest released tumbleweed version. * I am also in favour of having add-on repos as first class citizens (as you might be able to tell from my mails to the thread you quoted). But other than your ramblings that this is an evil conspiracy to force people to contribute to SLES (which it isn't, see above), it is simply a missing feature in OBS. AIUI, there is simply no way right now to make OBS "snapshot" a project. So instead of spreading conspiracy theories, the most productive thing you could do to remedy this situation is: * git clone https://github.com/openSUSE/open-build-service.git * cd open-build-service * start implementing the snapshot functionality. This will not waste anyone's time, and everyone will benefit. Have a nice day seife -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

21 Nov 21 Nov

17:38

On 20 November 2015 at 10:20, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Hi Sergey,

Am 19.11.2015 um 21:21 schrieb Sergey Kondakov:

...
And the reason for this is clear even if labelled as "conspiracy theory". Then packages go into official repoes, they end up in SLE

And here you are wrong. Packages in SLES are "hand-selected" because just because "it is in tumbleweed" does not make anyone wanting to support it for 10 years.

So no need to discuss any further for now. Please get your facts correct first, because only then we can discuss your valid points without making yourself look stupid (sorry).

Just to set things straight: * I am also in favour of having the snapshot repository being exactly what is the latest released tumbleweed version. * I am also in favour of having add-on repos as first class citizens (as you might be able to tell from my mails to the thread you quoted).

But other than your ramblings that this is an evil conspiracy to force people to contribute to SLES (which it isn't, see above), it is simply a missing feature in OBS. AIUI, there is simply no way right now to make OBS "snapshot" a project.

So instead of spreading conspiracy theories, the most productive thing you could do to remedy this situation is:

* git clone https://github.com/openSUSE/open-build-service.git * cd open-build-service * start implementing the snapshot functionality.

This will not waste anyone's time, and everyone will benefit.

Have a nice day

seife --

This issue is now resolved/workedaround http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-packaging/2015-11/msg00054.html Regards, Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jimmy Berry

22 Nov 22 Nov

02:15

This is great news! -- Jimmy On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 20 November 2015 at 10:20, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...
Hi Sergey,

Am 19.11.2015 um 21:21 schrieb Sergey Kondakov:

...
And the reason for this is clear even if labelled as "conspiracy theory". Then packages go into official repoes, they end up in SLE

And here you are wrong. Packages in SLES are "hand-selected" because just because "it is in tumbleweed" does not make anyone wanting to support it for 10 years.

So no need to discuss any further for now. Please get your facts correct first, because only then we can discuss your valid points without making yourself look stupid (sorry).

Just to set things straight: * I am also in favour of having the snapshot repository being exactly what is the latest released tumbleweed version. * I am also in favour of having add-on repos as first class citizens (as you might be able to tell from my mails to the thread you quoted).

But other than your ramblings that this is an evil conspiracy to force people to contribute to SLES (which it isn't, see above), it is simply a missing feature in OBS. AIUI, there is simply no way right now to make OBS "snapshot" a project.

So instead of spreading conspiracy theories, the most productive thing you could do to remedy this situation is:

* git clone https://github.com/openSUSE/open-build-service.git * cd open-build-service * start implementing the snapshot functionality.

This will not waste anyone's time, and everyone will benefit.

Have a nice day

seife --

This issue is now resolved/workedaround

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-packaging/2015-11/msg00054.html

Regards,

Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Sergey Kondakov

23 Nov 23 Nov

08:38

On 21.11.2015 22:38, Richard Brown wrote:

...

This issue is now resolved/workedaround

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-packaging/2015-11/msg00054.html

Regards,

Richard

WOW ! Seems exactly like what I tried to describe previously. Endless thanks to everyone involved ! Is it already implemented and working ? It's said that OBS tries to rebuild more often, is it because TW snapshots are made more often than "Factory:snapshot" is usually updated ? Well, I can only recommend to make them no often than once a week (not counting emergency updates, of course, but there is a repo for that) until OBS rebuild logic is significantly improved (no rebuild without API change, publishing per dynamic package "bunches" instead of entirety of repoes, spare copies of packages from previous build[s], no publishing on failures, etc.). And I see you've noticed https://features.opensuse.org/307735 I still insist that all repoes should be treated equally. Personally, I've avoided contributing to official repoes because proper package maintenance is hard and takes too much time. Situation with un-official repoes does not directly influence that. But maybe if dealing with them would be easier, more time could be available for tidying packages up. On 20.11.2015 14:20, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Hi Sergey,

And here you are wrong. Packages in SLES are "hand-selected" because just because "it is in tumbleweed" does not make anyone wanting to support it for 10 years.

So no need to discuss any further for now. Please get your facts correct first, because only then we can discuss your valid points without making yourself look stupid (sorry).

Except I've never stated that packages are pulled into SLE from TW, I explicitly wrote that they probably go through proper openSUSE release for "stabilization", implying that it takes a lot of time. But their path still starts at Factory, hence the lack of attention to un-official repoes.

...

Just to set things straight: * I am also in favour of having the snapshot repository being exactly what is the latest released tumbleweed version. * I am also in favour of having add-on repos as first class citizens (as you might be able to tell from my mails to the thread you quoted).

But other than your ramblings that this is an evil conspiracy to force people to contribute to SLES (which it isn't, see above), it is simply a missing feature in OBS. AIUI, there is simply no way right now to make OBS "snapshot" a project.

So instead of spreading conspiracy theories, the most productive thing you could do to remedy this situation is:

* git clone https://github.com/openSUSE/open-build-service.git * cd open-build-service * start implementing the snapshot functionality.

This will not waste anyone's time, and everyone will benefit.

Have a nice day

seife

Except no one even tried to clearly explain why the hell TW repo is outside of OBS in the first place and what is so inappropriate with "Factory:snapshot" that it's good enough for building everything against it but not good enough to use it. It's still is regularly updated, even if it's done manually. Doing it better would be an improvement but current state of affairs not in any way seem to prevent it from being a perfectly usable thing. It's there, it's a snapshot, it's updated and it works. I mentioned previously that to build my [~12 GB uncompressed / ~3 GB compressed] openSUSE "spin" I use tens of different repoes (I remember using some of your stuff for something too). in case openSUSE releases, they take precedence over the official repoes, meaning that most of the build may consist of "the brokennest packages", but in case of TW I wanted to use them only as fallback for missing packages which should be more reliable since that way most of the packages would be official. And yet, builds based on completely untested packages never gave me troubles more often than once per several months while I've failed to make a single TW build based on "tested" ones since something is always desynchronized between "Factory:snapshot" and "TW" repo.

Richard Brown

09:53

On 23 November 2015 at 09:38, Sergey Kondakov wrote:

...

On 21.11.2015 22:38, Richard Brown wrote:

...
This issue is now resolved/workedaround

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-packaging/2015-11/msg00054.html

Regards,

Richard

WOW ! Seems exactly like what I tried to describe previously. Endless thanks to everyone involved ! Is it already implemented and working ? It's said that OBS tries to rebuild more often, is it because TW snapshots are made more often than "Factory:snapshot" is usually updated ? Well, I can only recommend to make them no often than once a week (not counting emergency updates, of course, but there is a repo for that) until OBS rebuild logic is significantly improved (no rebuild without API change, publishing per dynamic package "bunches" instead of entirety of repoes, spare copies of packages from previous build[s], no publishing on failures, etc.).

Glad you're happy Yes. it's implimented No, we're not going to slow down Tumbleweed in order to optimise for unofficial repositories. Read Coolos blog post to learn how to best cope https://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/12/16/how-we-use-our-power/

...

And I see you've noticed https://features.opensuse.org/307735 I still insist that all repoes should be treated equally.

No, official Tumbleweed repositories will always be considered more important than Devel Projects which will always be considered more important than Home projects. We're the openSUSE Project, we build the openSUSE distributions, while we are of course awesome and lovely and like to share our tools and build power, we're fully within our right to optimise for the primary use cases of the Project. If you want to run your own OBS where you can set your own priorities accordingly on your own hardware, you're fully able to, and you can even link it to ours, just like Packman do.

...

Personally, I've avoided contributing to official repoes because proper package maintenance is hard and takes too much time. Situation with un-official repoes does not directly influence that. But maybe if dealing with them would be easier, more time could be available for tidying packages up.

The processes and requirements for package maintenance are there to ensure that people do it properly, in a way that can be picked up easily if the current people stop doing it. It's good practice to follow them, even for unofficial repositories, so I'd recommend you consider doing it anyway.

...

Except I've never stated that packages are pulled into SLE from TW, I explicitly wrote that they probably go through proper openSUSE release for "stabilization", implying that it takes a lot of time. But their path still starts at Factory, hence the lack of attention to un-official repoes.

Unofficial repos get less attention because their unofficial. If people want their stuff in official repositories, we have standards and processes that need to be followed. That's what makes them official. The reward for following those standards and processes is an increase of people using, working on, and collaborating on, those things in the official repos. It's your choice if you want to 'go it alone', we wish you well and will support you as best we can, but the Project will always focus our efforts on the common goals of the Project.

...

Except no one even tried to clearly explain why the hell TW repo is outside of OBS in the first place and what is so inappropriate with "Factory:snapshot" that it's good enough for building everything against it but not good enough to use it.

I tried to explain, you failed to comprehend. If we published the old (now dead) Factory:snapshot for using it, we would have to support it. We'd have to deal with people ask questions about "why is XXX broken in Factory:snapshot?" or "Please change YYY in Factory:snapshot urgently!" - we didn't need, or want that, and we'd never be in a position to fix anything reported there.. in short, it was useless as a usable thing, it was also sub-optimal as a build-against thing. Everyone who knew what they were talking about agreed with that, and now we don't need it any more, so it's dead. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Sergey Kondakov

10:25

On 23.11.2015 14:53, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Glad you're happy

Yes. it's implimented

No, we're not going to slow down Tumbleweed in order to optimise for unofficial repositories. Read Coolos blog post to learn how to best cope https://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/12/16/how-we-use-our-power/

I will but that's another unnecessary artificial problem for you most technically apt users. After all, normal people don't use rolling releases but tech-maniacs who do need those releases to help them in their work. You say that you "not going to slow down Tumbleweed". But what Tumbleweed users, most extreme openSUSE nerds, would actually want more: more flexible and package-rich system in general or updates just few days earlier ? I'm not asking to go full-Ubuntu on our non-volatile storages but that stuff seems really unnecessary stingy.

...

No, official Tumbleweed repositories will always be considered more important than Devel Projects which will always be considered more important than Home projects.

We're the openSUSE Project, we build the openSUSE distributions, while we are of course awesome and lovely and like to share our tools and build power, we're fully within our right to optimise for the primary use cases of the Project.

If you want to run your own OBS where you can set your own priorities accordingly on your own hardware, you're fully able to, and you can even link it to ours, just like Packman do.

Guess that's a fair point. But not exactly then things are broken for non-corporates without actual necessity for your benefit, almost on a whim.

...

The processes and requirements for package maintenance are there to ensure that people do it properly, in a way that can be picked up easily if the current people stop doing it. It's good practice to follow them, even for unofficial repositories, so I'd recommend you consider doing it anyway.

...

Unofficial repos get less attention because their unofficial. If people want their stuff in official repositories, we have standards and processes that need to be followed. That's what makes them official. The reward for following those standards and processes is an increase of people using, working on, and collaborating on, those things in the official repos. It's your choice if you want to 'go it alone', we wish you well and will support you as best we can, but the Project will always focus our efforts on the common goals of the Project.

I do consider it, but I can't do it when I have to deal with more pressing problems. Like breakage previously and now "constant rebuilds and blocks". That wastes time that I and anyone could use for "following good packaging practices". Why do you have to fight with your active users ? How about focusing on common goals of "the Project" and its users ?

...

I tried to explain, you failed to comprehend.

If we published the old (now dead) Factory:snapshot for using it, we would have to support it. We'd have to deal with people ask questions about "why is XXX broken in Factory:snapshot?" or "Please change YYY in Factory:snapshot urgently!" - we didn't need, or want that, and we'd never be in a position to fix anything reported there.. in short, it was useless as a usable thing, it was also sub-optimal as a build-against thing. Everyone who knew what they were talking about agreed with that, and now we don't need it any more, so it's dead.

No, it's you who failed to comprehend my problem with typical corporate, proprietary approach of locking already implemented user-controllable features under excuse "we don't want to make it right, so we won't allow it in any way whatsoever, so you wouldn't even see how ass-backwards it was". That's what sarcastic "effective manager" term means: not seeing forest behind the trees while focusing more on corporate rules rather than their purpose. Well, I've and a lot of people seen it, you now fixed it to be better. That's very decent of you. But it's still not a valid argument for a FOSS project.

Richard Brown

10:40

On 23 November 2015 at 11:25, Sergey Kondakov wrote:

...

On 23.11.2015 14:53, Richard Brown wrote:

...
Glad you're happy

Yes. it's implimented

No, we're not going to slow down Tumbleweed in order to optimise for unofficial repositories. Read Coolos blog post to learn how to best cope https://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/12/16/how-we-use-our-power/

I will but that's another unnecessary artificial problem for you most technically apt users. After all, normal people don't use rolling releases but tech-maniacs who do need those releases to help them in their work.

You say that you "not going to slow down Tumbleweed". But what Tumbleweed users, most extreme openSUSE nerds, would actually want more: more flexible and package-rich system in general or updates just few days earlier ?

In the last year, the pace of Tumbleweed has accelerated, to the point now where we start moaning that things are 'slow' when we 'only' update it two or three times a week During that time, we've seen Tumbleweed's userbase almost double http://i.imgur.com/UnuN1et.png I'd say we're on the right track. If Tumbleweed contributors want to do things differently, they can contribute to make things differently.. shouting from the sidelines doesn't count.

...

I'm not asking to go full-Ubuntu on our non-volatile storages but that stuff seems really unnecessary stingy.

If you want a stable (stable as in changing less often) openSUSE option, we have openSUSE Leap for those people.

...

Guess that's a fair point. But not exactly then things are broken for non-corporates without actual necessity for your benefit, almost on a whim.

There is nothing 'corporate' in this..Tumbleweed is a project by it's contributors, for it's contributors and everyone else who wants to use it.

...

I do consider it, but I can't do it when I have to deal with more pressing problems. Like breakage previously and now "constant rebuilds and blocks". That wastes time that I and anyone could use for "following good packaging practices".

Why do you have to fight with your active users ? How about focusing on common goals of "the Project" and its users ?

I am not sure I can really consider you an 'active user'..you are building your own distribution, and then screaming loudly when things are not as easy as they could be. I am somewhat sympathetic, but ultimately you have been rude, demanding, and I have not seen any contributions from you for these OBS issues which affect your distribution. Besides the issue with Factory:snapshot (which I and everyone agreed with you that it should be fixed, and now it is), I also haven't heard any convincing arguments why your other issues have a broad, project wide, implication.. if they did, I'm sure other people would be working on fixing the issues with you.. in which case this thread would be totally useless...

...

But it's still not a valid argument for a FOSS project.

Here's the first thing you need to learn about working in a real FOSS Project - If you want something fixed, either fix it yourself, or find someone to fix it for you. Screaming about it isn't going to help you fix it, and isn't likely to help you find people to fix it for you. In any FOSS project, it's perfectly reasonable for people to say that they disagree with you, as I do, and perfectly reasonable for people to say they wont do additional work to help you, as I won't. Neither prevents you from fixing things yourself, and neither should be considered a blocker for others from helping you - but I suspect you're doing a good enough job of alienating those who would be otherwise suitably skilled in assisting you. My advice would be to pause, step back, and consider if you really expect anyone here to help you with your continuing tone and baseless rhetoric. - Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

22 Nov 22 Nov

05:43

On 20/11/15 07:21, Sergey Kondakov wrote:

...

On 19.11.2015 00:45, Tomáš Čech wrote:

...
I'm sorry you find my e-mail as systematic attack, it was reminder to moderator.

I haven't wrote about a "systematic attack", I wrote about "systematic approach" of ignoring and/or shutting down opposing opinions or even non-common goals of other openSUSE users.

...
All I meant was - if your frustration is result of some long time fight against 'self-important single-minded group ...' you could write earlier in less offensive and more factual way. IMHO you could target wider audience that way. It's not that it's a "long time fight against" anybody, it's just not what should be expected from FOSS Community participants even if they are on corporate payroll. It seems there is a despicable censorship feature on this list. And openSUSE officials developed careless attitude to un-official repoes as if they are only representatives of The Community. That way, hacky "solutions" to un-clear problems of company repoes are immediately accepted but any problems of non-company repos, including ones stemming from those hacky "solutions", can be freely spat upon, ignored for months, years or forever. Like this - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00381.html - I actually wanted to write about this thing too for a while now, even before trying "The Tumbleweed Product".

And the reason for this is clear even if labelled as "conspiracy theory". Then packages go into official repoes, they end up in SLE, and that adds features without expenditure which brings easy money. But in un-official repoes people are developing features for themselves, it's not profitable to help them but "incentivizing" them to go official may be so. And incentive may come from making that easy... or from making other things hard.

But it's true that "less offensive and more factual way" is always warranted. Or at least "less overtly offensive". Talking mad disrespectful shit in seemingly polite way and appear civil, like that "unfortunately this person isn't willing to progress" part. That's an art.

LOL. I just love your last paragraph! Well said :-) .

...

BTW I know that feeling. I appreciate the sympathy.

BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-16 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Tomáš Čech

18 Nov 18 Nov

13:41

Hi, It would be nice if you could separate your hatred against SUSE company from the technical points. Technical points are interesting, those emotional agitations not. Best regards, Tomas Cech -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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Basil Chupin
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar
Jimmy Berry
Martin Pluskal
Richard Brown
Sergey Kondakov
Stefan Seyfried
Tomáš Čech

[opensuse-factory] Public access to Factory:snapshot which ALL repositories are built against

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