[opensuse-factory] No more fake New tumbleweed snapshot released emails
Hi. As you ca read in the automated emails when a new snapshot is released. Please: When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject. It is not helpful to keep the release announcement subject in a thread while discussing a specific problem. Thank you Greetings -- ------------------- GPG Key: 0xcc742e8dc9b7e22a Fingerprint = 6FE2 3B1F AAC8 E5B7 63EA 88A9 CC74 2E8D C9B7 E22A Aprende a proteger la privacidad de tu correo: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/es/ Mi blog sobre openSUSE, GNU/Linux y software libre: https://victorhckinthefreeworld.com/
On Thursday 2018-03-29 17:58, victorhck wrote:
Hi.
As you ca read in the automated emails when a new snapshot is released. Please:
When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject. It is not helpful to keep the release announcement subject in a thread while discussing a specific problem.
Nice try, but unfortunately likely in vain. If they skip the paragraph in the snapshot mail, they'll also skip it when copy-pasted into other emails. Only a technical approach will fix it. Like Reply-To: to a non-existing account. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Op donderdag 29 maart 2018 18:17:53 CEST schreef Jan Engelhardt:
On Thursday 2018-03-29 17:58, victorhck wrote:
Hi.
As you ca read in the automated emails when a new snapshot is released. Please:
When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject. It is not helpful to keep the release announcement subject in a thread while discussing a specific problem.
Nice try, but unfortunately likely in vain. If they skip the paragraph in the snapshot mail, they'll also skip it when copy-pasted into other emails.
Only a technical approach will fix it. Like Reply-To: to a non-existing account. No try is no result. Though a technical solution would be prefered.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday, 29 March 2018 18:39:57 CEST Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:
Op donderdag 29 maart 2018 18:17:53 CEST schreef Jan Engelhardt:
On Thursday 2018-03-29 17:58, victorhck wrote:
Hi.
As you ca read in the automated emails when a new snapshot is released. Please:
When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject. It is not helpful to keep the release announcement subject in a thread while discussing a specific problem.
Nice try, but unfortunately likely in vain. If they skip the paragraph in the snapshot mail, they'll also skip it when copy-pasted into other emails.
Only a technical approach will fix it. Like Reply-To: to a non-existing account.
No try is no result. Though a technical solution would be prefered.
I guess that can be as simple as --- a/factory-package-news/announcer.py +++ b/factory-package-news/announcer.py @@ -161,6 +161,7 @@ msg['Subject'] = config.subject.format(version=version) msg['From'] = options.sender msg['To'] = options.to msg['Mail-Followup-To'] = options.to +msg.add_header('Reply-To', options.sender) msg['Date'] = email.utils.formatdate(localtime=1) msg['Message-ID'] = email.utils.make_msgid() in http://github.com/openSUSE/openSUSE-release-tools but I do not know all implications. Mail-Followup-To is already set to options.to which is noreply@opensuse.org So do we want this? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 2018-03-29 18:46, Oliver Kurz wrote:
I guess that can be as simple as --- a/factory-package-news/announcer.py +++ b/factory-package-news/announcer.py @@ -161,6 +161,7 @@ msg['Subject'] = config.subject.format(version=version) msg['From'] = options.sender msg['To'] = options.to msg['Mail-Followup-To'] = options.to +msg.add_header('Reply-To', options.sender) msg['Date'] = email.utils.formatdate(localtime=1) msg['Message-ID'] = email.utils.make_msgid()
in http://github.com/openSUSE/openSUSE-release-tools but I do not know all implications. Mail-Followup-To is already set to options.to which is noreply@opensuse.org
So do we want this?
Feels like this is a "nature will just build a better idiot" situation. Like, they will change the To: field while _still_ leaving Subject: intact. And given that no MUA knows fancy headers like Reply-With-Subject: I'm too lazy to change the subject the more fruitful option is to reject-filter all mail with Subject =~ /New snapshot 2018xxyy/ && From !~ /bot@opensuse/ at the smtpd level. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
+1 for technical solution for the love-of-god please fix this problem, it is a constant aggravation -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Jan Engelhardt wrote:
the more fruitful option is to reject-filter all mail with Subject =~ /New snapshot 2018xxyy/ && From !~ /bot@opensuse/ at the smtpd level.
I think this might be doable in mlmmj too - allow ^From:.*dimstar..... deny ^Subject:.*New Tumbleweed snapshot 20[0-9]+ released The only issue is the less-than-useful error message returned to the sender. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday 2018-03-31 10:58, Per Jessen wrote:
Jan Engelhardt wrote:
the more fruitful option is to reject-filter all mail with Subject =~ /New snapshot 2018xxyy/ && From !~ /bot@opensuse/ at the smtpd level.
I think this might be doable in mlmmj too -
allow ^From:.*dimstar..... deny ^Subject:.*New Tumbleweed snapshot 20[0-9]+ released
The only issue is the less-than-useful error message returned to the sender.
I was looking at postfix's header_checks(5), and the postfix corresponding allow and deny logic in postfix's header_checks are carried out indepdently, meaning that messages with the TW subject are always rejected, even if they come from the bot. Can you confirm mlmmj acts different from postfix? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Saturday 2018-03-31 10:58, Per Jessen wrote:
Jan Engelhardt wrote:
the more fruitful option is to reject-filter all mail with Subject =~ /New snapshot 2018xxyy/ && From !~ /bot@opensuse/ at the smtpd level.
I think this might be doable in mlmmj too -
allow ^From:.*dimstar..... deny ^Subject:.*New Tumbleweed snapshot 20[0-9]+ released
The only issue is the less-than-useful error message returned to the sender.
I was looking at postfix's header_checks(5), and the postfix corresponding allow and deny logic in postfix's header_checks are carried out indepdently, meaning that messages with the TW subject are always rejected, even if they come from the bot. Can you confirm mlmmj acts different from postfix?
Yes, the access rules in mlmmj are tried sequentially until an action is taken. The only issue I see is the error message: --------------- Hi, this is the Mlmmj program managing the <opensuse-factory@o.o> mailing list. The message from <email@addr.ess> with subject "New Tumbleweed snapshot 20181234 released" was unable to be delivered to the list because of an access rule set up by the list administrator. ------------------ I haven't found a way of making it say something more useful. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
The only issue I see is the error message: [...] unable to [...] because of an access rule
Isn't this worse than the problem you are trying to solve? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Joachim Wagner wrote:
The only issue I see is the error message: [...] unable to [...] because of an access rule
Isn't this worse than the problem you are trying to solve?
Yes, quite possibly. I'll leave that to others to decide though, I'm just offering a solution. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.8°C) Mmeber, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-04-02 10:10, Joachim Wagner wrote:
The only issue I see is the error message: [...] unable to [...] because of an access rule
Isn't this worse than the problem you are trying to solve?
Yes, it is a big problem. There are several reasons an email to one of the lists get rejected, and they all get the same error message. People get no idea of what is the problem. So they often pick someone to ask, off list, to help them. I get asked more than once, for instance. But, the problem gets hidden from the list view - unless they choose to ask on the list for the reason of the reject ;-p (just today another one replied to one of those posts without changing the subject) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject. It is not helpful to keep the release announcement subject in a thread while discussing a specific problem.
Shouldn't the call rather be asking people to start a proper new thread, e.g. click "start a new thread" rather than "reply", if their e-mail client has such a button, or start a new message by clicking on the e-mail address of the mailing list (or by copy and pasting the address)? The default mail client of the default desktop of openSUSE Leap, i.e. KMail, displays all replies inside the thread regardless of subject changes. Given that replies are linked to a thread via the "In-Reply-To" and "References" e-mail headers, I'd think that KMail's behaviour is correct, even though I understand that the behaviour of gmail (and other clients?) that break a thread when the subject line changes is more practical as many users these days seem to reply to any old old e-mail they can find from the intended recipient to start a new message. Questions: (1) Is KMail's threaded view the exception or is gmail the exception? (2) Are there mailing list guidelines for the opensuse list and should an automated reminder with a link to the guidelines be posted, e.g. quarterly? (3) Wouldn't it be a simpler solution for automated scripts that watch this mailing list for automated notifications to check that the "In-Reply-To" header is absent, rather than trying to stop replies? Joachim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Joachim Wagner wrote:
When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject. It is not helpful to keep the release announcement subject in a thread while discussing a specific problem.
Shouldn't the call rather be asking people to start a proper new thread, e.g. click "start a new thread" rather than "reply", if their e-mail client has such a button, or start a new message by clicking on the e-mail address of the mailing list (or by copy and pasting the address)?
The default mail client of the default desktop of openSUSE Leap, i.e. KMail, displays all replies inside the thread regardless of subject changes.
Given that replies are linked to a thread via the "In-Reply-To" and "References" e-mail headers, I'd think that KMail's behaviour is correct, even though I understand that the behaviour of gmail (and other clients?) that break a thread when the subject line changes is more practical as many users these days seem to reply to any old old e-mail they can find from the intended recipient to start a new message.
Questions:
(1) Is KMail's threaded view the exception or is gmail the exception?
I would say threading by in-reply-to: and references: is the correct way. Thunderbird and knode both follow this practice.
(2) Are there mailing list guidelines for the opensuse list and
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette
should an automated reminder with a link to the guidelines be posted, e.g. quarterly?
I doubt if it'll help much. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Joachim Wagner wrote:
When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject. It is not helpful to keep the release announcement subject in a thread while discussing a specific problem.
Shouldn't the call rather be asking people to start a proper new thread, e.g. click "start a new thread" rather than "reply", if their e-mail client has such a button, or start a new message by clicking on the e-mail address of the mailing list (or by copy and pasting the address)?
1) I do find it usefull when all issues with a snapshot are threaded within the same top level posting (i.e., the announcement) 2) If 'asking people to X' does not work, why do you assume 'asking them to Y' would? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/01/2018 03:41 AM, Joachim Wagner wrote:
When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject. It is not helpful to keep the release announcement subject in a thread while discussing a specific problem.
Shouldn't the call rather be asking people to start a proper new thread, e.g. click "start a new thread" rather than "reply", if their e-mail client has such a button, or start a new message by clicking on the e-mail address of the mailing list (or by copy and pasting the address)?
Based on no empirical evidence ... it's likely that the message is related to the TW snapshot (such as "I did this update and my computer broke"). It seems unlikely that a Tumbleweed user would report a problem or request assistance by picking any old new snapshot message. So it's helpful to know of that (potential) cause/effect. Speaking only from my own experience, when something breaks, my first reaction is surprise (as it happens rarely) and then something like panic. After all, Tumbleweed is complex and I probably don't know how to fix it, or even understand it. It's only after calming down, that I realize: - Fixing stuff is mostly how I've learned everything that I know about Linux and openSUSE. - If I have the problem, then probably others do too. - The TW community is inclined to be helpful. - If I'm going to ask for assistance, I should change the subject line or start a new thread. In light of this, it can be understood why someone would have an automatic reaction to an issue by replying to a new snapshot message, and why they wouldn't change the subject line.
The default mail client of the default desktop of openSUSE Leap, i.e. KMail, displays all replies inside the thread regardless of subject changes.
Given that replies are linked to a thread via the "In-Reply-To" and "References" e-mail headers, I'd think that KMail's behaviour is correct, even though I understand that the behaviour of gmail (and other clients?) that break a thread when the subject line changes is more practical as many users these days seem to reply to any old old e-mail they can find from the intended recipient to start a new message.
Questions:
(1) Is KMail's threaded view the exception or is gmail the exception?
(2) Are there mailing list guidelines for the opensuse list and should an automated reminder with a link to the guidelines be posted, e.g. quarterly?
I agree with Per Jessen ... Probably will make little difference.
(3) Wouldn't it be a simpler solution for automated scripts that watch this mailing list for automated notifications to check that the "In-Reply-To" header is absent, rather than trying to stop replies?
The simplest solution is for Tumbleweed users/mailing list subscribers to do what is asked. Failing that (and it will fail), anyone on the list can change the subject to something more useful. Stopping replies is not the goal. Rather it is to avoid inaccurate, distracting, marginally useful subjects. Personally, I _want_ to know if there's potential breakage in the snapshot. Carl
Joachim
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Carl Symons composed on 2018-04-01 10:48 (UTC-0700):
The simplest solution is for Tumbleweed users/mailing list subscribers to do what is asked. Failing that (and it will fail), anyone on the list can change the subject to something more useful.
If you really want the best chance for something to be done, make it the first thing seen. Bold wouldn't hurt either. Instead of When you reply to report some issues, make sure to change the subject... on the 6th non-blank line, put on the first non-blank line: PLEASE: 1-If you reply to this message, edit the subject line to briefly summarize why you are replying. 2-Remove all portions of the quoting that do not pertain to what you are describing. If you aren't sure what pertains, remove it all, or leave only what you guess might pertain. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Carl Symons -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Jan Engelhardt -
Joachim Wagner -
Knurpht ＠ openSUSE -
nicholas cunliffe -
Oliver Kurz -
Per Jessen -
Peter Suetterlin -
victorhck