Am Montag 07 März 2011 schrieb Kim Leyendecker: ...

Okay, let us think of the future..... After the whole discussion about the 11.4 vs 12.0 topic in the end of the development cycle for the done release, I think it´s better to talk on it now and make clear which goals we want achieve with the successor of 11.4. I don´t want to call it 11.5 or 12.0, just the "successor" till the version number is clear. ... Seem's someone has made a decision already: http://download.opensuse.org/update/ shows 11.5 and 11.5-test with date 28- Apr-2008 17:29. Back in the future?

Hans-Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

any need to change the naming system again before another new century begins. but the major.minor scheme rests for ever..... (remember 10483.4 is

Am 07.03.2011 20:03, schrieb Felix Miata: possible....) -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador http://www.suseusers.de.vu powered by openSUSE 11.4 RC2 | KDE 4.6 | Kernel-default 2.6.37.1-14 | using Tumbleweed openSUSE/Slashdot Profilname: openLHAG (OpenLHAG) Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/03/07 20:06 (GMT+0100) Kim Leyendecker composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

any need to change the naming system again before another new century begins.

but the major.minor scheme rests for ever..... (remember 10483.4 is possible....)

I don't understand this response. -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday, March 07, 2011 07:37:02 PM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

03/07/2011 jdd wrote:

Now that 11.4 is done and nearly out, we can think of the future.

let's get 11.4 out first instead of starting endless discussions, please! If you have time, help the marketing team get everything ready for Thursday! Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/03/07 20:42 (GMT+0100) Kim Leyendecker composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2011/03/07 20:06 (GMT+0100) Kim Leyendecker composed:

...

...

but the major.minor scheme rests for ever..... (remember 10483.4 is possible....)

...

I don't understand this response.

Hm okay.... You said that we have to change the year scheme when a new century starts, right? But the jaor minor scheme you haven´t to change with a new century, understand? :)

In my proposal there is no . minor after 11.5 GA. In computing the dots in versions are confusing to mere mortal users, looking like decimals, where .10 is considerably smaller, which alludes to older, than .9. I expect by next century the whole paradigm of any open source personal computer Linux OS will have been subsumed or displaced by some as yet unknown technology, or at the least a rolling release system akin to what Evergreen or Tumbleweed are trying to be now. -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 7. März 2011 schrieb Hans-Peter Holler:

Am Montag 07 März 2011 schrieb Kim Leyendecker: ...

...

Okay, let us think of the future..... After the whole discussion about the 11.4 vs 12.0 topic in the end of the development cycle for the done release, I think it´s better to talk on it now and make clear which goals we want achieve with the successor of 11.4. I don´t want to call it 11.5 or 12.0, just the "successor" till the version number is clear.

... Seem's someone has made a decision already:

We made the decision that factory is 11.4++ and used the simplest algebra possible. That doesn't mean we can't rename the repo. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:28 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

We made the decision that factory is 11.4++ and used the simplest algebra possible. That doesn't mean we can't rename the repo.

Well, when is SLES/SLED planning to be updated?  Usually, that would be with 12.1.  So, if that is something that would be done sometime soon, then I could see the next release being 12.0.

IIRC, .4 was the highest S.u.S.E. release.  v6.4 & v4.4.1

I think SuSE 7.0 introduced a major feature back then, the graphical installer ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSE_Linux_distributions#Versions -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-- nelson marques nmo.marques@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Tue, Mar 08, 2011 at 11:19:21PM +0000, Nelson Marques wrote:

I think SuSE 7.0 introduced a major feature back then, the graphical installer ;)

No, that was added with 6.3 already. -- Bye, Stephan Barth Novell Technical Services, Worldwide Support Services Linux SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuremberg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, March 09, 2011 00:02:52 Larry Stotler wrote:

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:28 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

We made the decision that factory is 11.4++ and used the simplest algebra possible. That doesn't mean we can't rename the repo.

Well, when is SLES/SLED planning to be updated? Usually, that would be with 12.1. So, if that is something that would be done sometime soon, then I could see the next release being 12.0.

The SLE release has no significance on openSUSE naming anymore. No need for that, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday, March 07, 2011 07:37:02 PM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

03/07/2011 jdd wrote:

Now that 11.4 is done and nearly out, we can think of the future.

Okay, let us think of the future..... After the whole discussion about the 11.4 vs 12.0 topic in the end of the development cycle for the done release, I think it´s better to talk on it now and make clear which goals we want achieve with the successor of 11.4. I don´t want to call it 11.5 or 12.0, just the "successor" till the version number is clear.

For this, I have two ideas here:

Eight months after the 11.4 release, we´ve got November 2011. So, the release maybe can be called *12*, because 2011 is a linux celebration year (1991-2011, twenty years). If we use this tactic, we have to release it on the 17th September, because Linux 0.01 was released on the same date.

Or we say, 11.5 is the logical, evolutionaly and not revolutionary successor of 11.0, 11.1, 11.2, 11.3 and 11.4 so it called *11.5*

So far with the version game for marketing:

I think everybody jumped on your 11.5/12.0 discussion but you raised another question that got lost:

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor?

So, are there any great ideas that people want to do? We have to go through openFATE soon and see also what people proposed. In general, we need both good ideas and volunteers driving the implementation and integration, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le vendredi 11 mars 2011, à 14:48 +0000, Nelson Marques a écrit :

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le lundi 07 mars 2011, à 19:37 +0100, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :

...

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor? [...] * KDE 4.x and GNOME 2.x _and_ GNOME 3.x

I don't think the GNOME team has planned to have both GNOME versions. If that's something people want to see happen, please show up at the GNOME team meetings or on opensuse-gnome :-)

I know the 'manpower' point of view, and against that there are no arguments. On the other side, considering that many people are throwing knifes at the alternative panels of G3 and stuff...

gnome-panel is still available in GNOME 3 :-) So we can still build a GNOME 2-like interface with GNOME 3 if we want. Some things will be different, but I'm pretty sure those wouldn't be that much of a big deal to most people. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 11. März 2011, 15:58:21 schrieb Vincent Untz:

Le vendredi 11 mars 2011, à 14:48 +0000, Nelson Marques a écrit :

...

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le lundi 07 mars 2011, à 19:37 +0100, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :

...

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor?

[...]

...

* KDE 4.x and GNOME 2.x _and_ GNOME 3.x

I don't think the GNOME team has planned to have both GNOME versions. If that's something people want to see happen, please show up at the GNOME team meetings or on opensuse-gnome :-)

I know the 'manpower' point of view, and against that there are no arguments. On the other side, considering that many people are throwing knifes at the alternative panels of G3 and stuff...

gnome-panel is still available in GNOME 3 :-) So we can still build a GNOME 2-like interface with GNOME 3 if we want. Some things will be different, but I'm pretty sure those wouldn't be that much of a big deal to most people.

Vincent

Who cares about gnome anyway ;-) My experiences from KDE awere that it's good to keep support for the old stable tree in parallel for at least one version. The K Desktop (a really great product broken by an over-ambitious major release) is now in its 4.6 and it's slowly coming back to a stage where I would recommend it to grandparents and other casual users. This Gnome3 thing seems to be a big step for the little gnomies, so I think it's wise to let them choose if they want to make this step this time or next time. Are we sure we want this discussion on two lists? -- Ralf Lang Linux Consultant / Developer B1 Systems GmbH Osterfeldstraße 7 / 85088 Vohburg / http://www.b1-systems.de GF: Ralph Dehner / Unternehmenssitz: Vohburg / AG: Ingolstadt,HRB 3537 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le vendredi 11 mars 2011, à 15:13 +0000, Nelson Marques a écrit :

I haven't run GNOME3 with 'nomodeset' to check it out, but there's a lot of people bullying GNOME3 in Fedora... The panels were one of the reasons invoked, so that's why I mentioned it... so we don't have to go through the same.

Well, from my tiny experience with GNOME Shell and GNOME3, I do see some potential on it, and by not making G2 available we might push people to be spend more time with shell, I would suppose that would also increase the number of converts to G3/Gnome-shell. Which honestly is a very good thing.

Take a look at the Fedora Planet for some insight. If you want I can compile a small set of links.

Are you interested in having GNOME 2 available, or having a user experience similar to the GNOME 2 one? The latter is not that hard with GNOME 3, that's my point :-) The former needs manpower, obviously, but could be doable -- we just need to discuss this option very early. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am 11.03.2011 16:43, schrieb Vincent Untz:

Are you interested in having GNOME 2 available, or having a user experience similar to the GNOME 2 one? My point: When GNOME 3 is *stable* the G2-experience is the best choice. When GNOME 3 becomes like KDE (I mean 4.0.x and 4.1.x) it´s better to ship 2.32.x with it. The latter is not that hard with GNOME 3, that's my point:-) The former needs manpower, Is KDE3 supported in the latest releases? I´ve heard that you can install a full running KDE 3.5.10 desktop on 11.3. Does it be supported by us or a community project or is it unsupported? I think GNOME 2.x will be in SLE for a while. Maybe we can use this bugfixes if we need them? obviously, but could be doable -- we just need to discuss this option very early.

Kim -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador http://www.suseusers.de.vu powered by openSUSE 11.4 RC2 | KDE 4.6 | Kernel-default 2.6.37.1-14 | using Tumbleweed openSUSE/Slashdot Profilname: openLHAG (OpenLHAG) Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2011-03-11 at 11:33 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Monday, March 07, 2011 07:37:02 PM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

I think everybody jumped on your 11.5/12.0 discussion but you raised another question that got lost:

...

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor?

So, are there any great ideas that people want to do?

That's what I *want*, not necessarily what I want to *do*. :) use systemd instead of sysv use plymouth instead of slash use dracut instead of mkinitrd kill the 8 seconds grub timeout get rid of /dev/disk/by-id/ in fstab and use /dev/disk/by-uuid/ do not install hundreds of -32bit packages on a 64bit-only box :) make sysconfig network optional and run services like networkmanager from upstream shipped systemd service files, instead of weird config options in /etc/sysconfig/. All that stuff should stay for servers, but it should be optional and not be the default. make rsyslog the default syslog, without any weird /etc/sysconfig/ configuration. it should be started by a single rsyslog service file shipped from upstream. All that stuff should stay for servers, but it should be optional and not be the default. make gdm/kdm be started from systemd, and get rid of the mindless sysconfig stuff that multiplexes all the things. /etc/init.d/xdm should not be the default get rid of all the unneeded entries for virtual filesystems in /etc/fstab, especially the deprecated and unsupported usbfs. do not allow the installer to split the rootfs from /usr :) do not install any local mail servers by default Kay -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/11/2011 11:25 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/03/11 11:07 (GMT-0500) Jeff Mahoney composed:

...

...

systemd by default.

...

plymouth as well.

Immature, unnecessary st^H^Hfluff. Don't fix what ain't broke. Let Fedora, Mandriva, et al mature them another release or two. F15 is a rat's nest so far, and I'm not even touching Mandriva until the systemd noise dies down on the Cooker list. KMS still isn't fully baked yet even in 11.4, at least, not everything it obsoletes or otherwise impacts.

What's gross is the unnecessary kernel code we're carrying around to implement this. This code is exactly what's causing most of your perennial, obscure, console issues. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk16TWAACgkQLPWxlyuTD7K5fgCdGc85n/AKvCggSjU9SAuEt9/F Wz8AnRMnYlDW2//4MI280BQHAjI1SbC0 =KvAi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

Implement what? I asked here weeks ago where to find a summary of what that stuff's for and got no response. Why does openSUSE still do what I need if I boot vanilla instead of desktop or default? Flicker? Always a non-issue here. Boot time? Who boots a non-test system except to change kernels?

Server - Never Desktop - depends(sometimes I lock it up....it IS 100% overclocked :-) Laptop - Every time I use it. Boot time is a non issue for me. My laptop is a P3/1Ghz with 512MB RAM. So, I'm prepared for a slight wait. Slow boot times that I see are usually caused by not having a network cord on a system and having the dhcp finally fail out (which can be a pain with 2 or 3 NICs). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Implement what? I asked here weeks ago where to find a summary of what that stuff's for and got no response. Why does openSUSE still do what I need if I boot vanilla instead of desktop or default? Flicker? Always a non-issue here. Boot time? Who boots a non-test system except to change kernels?

Server - Never

Desktop - depends(sometimes I lock it up....it IS 100% overclocked :-)

Laptop - Every time I use it.

Server - never Desktop, development - rarely Desktop, office - daily

Boot time is a non issue for me.

+1. Is completely immaterial. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 11. März 2011, 11:33:18 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

On Monday, March 07, 2011 07:37:02 PM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

03/07/2011 jdd wrote: So far with the version game for marketing: I think everybody jumped on your 11.5/12.0 discussion but you raised

another question that got lost:

...

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor?

So, are there any great ideas that people want to do?

Horde 4 Groupware packages - I'll do them myself. Kolab-related patches/addons, if they are still needed. Horde 3 will stay or be dropped depending on upstream decision of they want to provide security fixes for a good part of 12.0's lifetime. I am not willing to do anything kolab related to H3 though. -- Ralf Lang Linux Consultant / Developer B1 Systems GmbH Osterfeldstraße 7 / 85088 Vohburg / http://www.b1-systems.de GF: Ralph Dehner / Unternehmenssitz: Vohburg / AG: Ingolstadt,HRB 3537 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On ven., 2011-03-11 at 11:25 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/03/11 11:07 (GMT-0500) Jeff Mahoney composed:

...

...

systemd by default.

...

plymouth as well.

Immature, unnecessary st^H^Hfluff. Don't fix what ain't broke. Let Fedora, Mandriva, et al mature them another release or two. F15 is a rat's nest so far, and I'm not even touching Mandriva until the systemd noise dies down on the Cooker list. KMS still isn't fully baked yet even in 11.4, at least, not everything it obsoletes or otherwise impacts.

Plymouth IS mature.. Maybe nobody is touching it at Mandriva because people either left or were fired there .. -- Frederic Crozat Novell -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le vendredi 11 mars 2011, à 17:20 +0100, Kay Sievers a écrit :

On Fri, 2011-03-11 at 11:33 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

On Monday, March 07, 2011 07:37:02 PM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

I think everybody jumped on your 11.5/12.0 discussion but you raised another question that got lost:

...

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor?

So, are there any great ideas that people want to do?

That's what I *want*, not necessarily what I want to *do*. :)

[...nice list...] Can we lock you in a room for 8 months to force you to do all this? ;-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am 11.03.2011 19:47, schrieb Vincent Untz:

SLE doesn't have the latest GNOME 2.x, so it'd be hard to share fixes, I think.

But I'll again point out that it's possible to make GNOME 3 feel like GNOME 2 -- ie, to not use GNOME Shell. The fallback mode of GNOME 3 is extremely similar to GNOME 2, with most of the same code. So, there have to be the old libraries, or not? I mean, GNOME 2.x uses other libraries and an other API then GNOME 3.0 and the old stuff has to be installed before you use GNOME 3 with GNOME 2 fallback, or not?

By the way, I think we´ve got a large community. Maybe there is somebody with a SUSE Studio account who says: "Yeah, I don´t like GNOME 3, I don´t wanna hear something about GNOME 3, KDE is stupid and GNOME 2.x rocks my PC and rules." This person will create an appliance in Studio that based on 11.4 or 11.5 with GNOME 2 instead of GNOME 3 or KDE4. So we just need to work a little bit on this appliance and publish it as a community version so we have GNOME 2 already with the 11.4 successor. The bad and difficuilt thing about this solution is support. In the end I have to say, that I think nobody will stop you when you want to package and maintain GNOME 2.x if you have fun with it. So everybody who wants, just go for it and contribute to the GNOME team.

Also, the next version of openSUSE will use GNOME 3.2, not 3.0, which will accumulate many improvements over 3.0.

Hm, I don´t know how long it takes till GNOME 3 will be stable (look @KDE4). When GNOME 3.2 is rocking solid, Nobody will scream for GNOME 2.x :) thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador http://www.suseusers.de.vu powered by openSUSE 11.4 RC2 | KDE 4.6 | Kernel-default 2.6.37.1-14 | using Tumbleweed openSUSE/Slashdot Profilname: openLHAG (OpenLHAG) Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Kay Sievers wrote:

On Fri, 2011-03-11 at 11:33 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

On Monday, March 07, 2011 07:37:02 PM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

I think everybody jumped on your 11.5/12.0 discussion but you raised another question that got lost:

...

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor?

So, are there any great ideas that people want to do?

That's what I *want*, not necessarily what I want to *do*. :)

[snip] Nice list, but just about zero end-user impact. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 11 March 2011 13:40, Frederic Crozat wrote:

On ven., 2011-03-11 at 11:25 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2011/03/11 11:07 (GMT-0500) Jeff Mahoney composed:

...

...

 systemd by default.

...

plymouth as well.

Immature, unnecessary st^H^Hfluff. Don't fix what ain't broke. Let Fedora, Mandriva, et al mature them another release or two. F15 is a rat's nest so far, and I'm not even touching Mandriva until the systemd noise dies down on the Cooker list. KMS still isn't fully baked yet even in 11.4, at least, not everything it obsoletes or otherwise impacts.

Plymouth IS mature..

Maybe nobody is touching it at Mandriva because people either left or were fired there ..

Mageia was created from Mandriva. I don't know what the status of systemd/plymouth is there though. I think it's identical to Mandriva 2010.1 [1]

-- Frederic Crozat Novell

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

[1] http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=iso1:alpha1_release_notes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am I the only one who does not understand what are we talking about anymore here? I think I lost it many posts before(and I truly read them all), can someone summarize? ;-) 2011/3/11 Per Jessen :

jdd wrote:

...

Le 11/03/2011 19:08, Per Jessen a écrit :

...

...

Boot time is a non issue for me.

+1. Is completely immaterial.

when you test bootsplash or grub, it can be very important

I don't test either so my +1 remains :-)

But not affected or really related to openSUSE boot-up time.

...

jdd nb: not to say every 20 starts, full fsk...

On a test-system any sane person would clearly disable that.

-- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.7°C)

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Kostas -- http://opensuse.gr http://amb.opensuse.gr http://own.opensuse.gr http://warlordfff.tk me I am not me ------- Time travel is possible, you just need to know the right aliens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 12:37:29PM -0500, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Implement what? I asked here weeks ago where to find a summary of what that stuff's for and got no response. Why does openSUSE still do what I need if I boot vanilla instead of desktop or default? Flicker? Always a non-issue here. Boot time? Who boots a non-test system except to change kernels?

Server - Never

Boot time for servers do matter for systems where "uptime" is a measured amount and it matters for service contracts. So reducing the boot time from 5 minutes to 1 minute means real money for these providers and is something that everyone should be happy about.

Desktop - depends(sometimes I lock it up....it IS 100% overclocked :-)

I reboot my desktop far more than my laptop due to kernel development, so fast boot here is important.

Laptop - Every time I use it.

Boot time is a non issue for me. My laptop is a P3/1Ghz with 512MB RAM. So, I'm prepared for a slight wait.

Once you get used to it, you will not be :)

Slow boot times that I see are usually caused by not having a network cord on a system and having the dhcp finally fail out (which can be a pain with 2 or 3 NICs).

That should not be a gating issue on 11.4 anymore for you. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Jeff Mahoney wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 03/11/2011 02:16 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Kay Sievers wrote:

...

On Fri, 2011-03-11 at 11:33 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

On Monday, March 07, 2011 07:37:02 PM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

I think everybody jumped on your 11.5/12.0 discussion but you raised another question that got lost:

...

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor?

So, are there any great ideas that people want to do?

That's what I *want*, not necessarily what I want to *do*. :)

[snip]

Nice list, but just about zero end-user impact.

Maybe not, but some of them definitely reduce the maintenance load, allowing developers to work on more interesting things.

- -Jeff

Completely agree, but I have to ask if that is really very relevant (considering the main openSUSE audience)?

Consider the change from syslog-ng to rsyslog - for most end-users, probably zero impact, for many admins, major impact, for developers semi-significant impact (I can't gauge that).

What I meant to say but forgot to add is - it's all in the eye of the beholder. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/11/2011 03:03 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Greg KH wrote:

...

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 12:37:29PM -0500, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Implement what? I asked here weeks ago where to find a summary of what that stuff's for and got no response. Why does openSUSE still do what I need if I boot vanilla instead of desktop or default? Flicker? Always a non-issue here. Boot time? Who boots a non-test system except to change kernels?

Server - Never

Boot time for servers do matter for systems where "uptime" is a measured amount and it matters for service contracts. So reducing the boot time from 5 minutes to 1 minute means real money for these providers and is something that everyone should be happy about.

Only if they have an SLA that mandates _severe_ penalties when not met. Have you studied any decent SLAs recently? They're often not worth the paper or screen they're written on.

Besides - a 30min outage per annum equates to an uptime of 99.998%. A boot time reduction from 5 to 1min is unlikely to make much of a dent in that, IMHO.

Actually, I'd argue that's exactly why quick boot times are important. Reducing the boot time from 5 mins to 1 min means that there are more opportunities to schedule maintenance windows and that the system can be kept patched more easily. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk16gFQACgkQLPWxlyuTD7LRZQCgpuUhSJzPgqbXlM+qGi5BCiEI bt0An0XI+E5T29pZzBk+jIhuh8L/Ig41 =n9oH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jeff Mahoney wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 03/11/2011 03:03 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Greg KH wrote:

...

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 12:37:29PM -0500, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Implement what? I asked here weeks ago where to find a summary of what that stuff's for and got no response. Why does openSUSE still do what I need if I boot vanilla instead of desktop or default? Flicker? Always a non-issue here. Boot time? Who boots a non-test system except to change kernels?

Server - Never

Boot time for servers do matter for systems where "uptime" is a measured amount and it matters for service contracts. So reducing the boot time from 5 minutes to 1 minute means real money for these providers and is something that everyone should be happy about.

Only if they have an SLA that mandates _severe_ penalties when not met. Have you studied any decent SLAs recently? They're often not worth the paper or screen they're written on.

Besides - a 30min outage per annum equates to an uptime of 99.998%. A boot time reduction from 5 to 1min is unlikely to make much of a dent in that, IMHO.

Actually, I'd argue that's exactly why quick boot times are important. Reducing the boot time from 5 mins to 1 min means that there are more opportunities to schedule maintenance windows and that the system can be kept patched more easily.

- -Jeff

I surmise that you have probably never worked in an environment with such SLAs. Boot time is rarely if ever a factor in the evaluation of risk. The only/best way to keep uptimes of 99.998% or more is 1) to reduce change to an absolute minimum and 2) when at all necessary, make sure changes happen during the planned 30min outage window on Christmas Eve. Anyone managing an operation with an SLA of 99.998% becomes incredibly risk-averse and highly resistent to anyoneelses arguments of "but it boots faster" :-) Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that faster boot is not good, I'm just trying to say that from an openSUSE end-user perspective, it's low impact. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 09:26:33PM +0100, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

Auf 11.03.2011 17:20, Kay Sievers schrieb:

...

That's what I *want*, not necessarily what I want to *do*. :)

use systemd instead of sysv

make sysconfig network optional and run services like networkmanager from upstream shipped systemd service files, instead of weird config options in /etc/sysconfig/. All that stuff should stay for servers, but it should be optional and not be the default.

make gdm/kdm be started from systemd, and get rid of the mindless sysconfig stuff that multiplexes all the things. /etc/init.d/xdm should not be the default

Has the problem of systemd being slower than the current init system been solved? The last speed test I saw was this one: http://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/10/08/systemd-and-osc2010/

Yes, it is much faster, try it out today and see for yourself. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Greg KH wrote:

Boot time for servers do matter for systems where "uptime" is a measured amount and it matters for service contracts.  So reducing the boot time from 5 minutes to 1 minute means real money for these providers and is something that everyone should be happy about.

As someone else noted, in those cases, you are generally using SLES or RHES or something with a service contract. Not a community distro.

I reboot my desktop far more than my laptop due to kernel development, so fast boot here is important.

For you I can see that. For the average(or slightly above like me), it's not.

...

Slow boot times that I see are usually caused by not having a network cord on a system and having the dhcp finally fail out (which can be a pain with 2 or 3 NICs).

That should not be a gating issue on 11.4 anymore for you.

Just updated a Dual Xeon 500Mhz/1GB RAM to 11.4 from 11.3 with 2 NICs(100Mb & Gb) and it still does it. I can get a desktop fast, but have to wait on a VT. So, it's still there, as a DEFAULT config. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that faster boot is not good, I'm just trying to say that from an openSUSE end-user perspective, it's low impact.

Correct. Most people are still used to turning on their PC and getting a cup of coffee when they get to work. It really hasn't changed that much in 15 years or so.

Even longer back - back in 80s, I worked on an IBM 3194 display terminal with support for four 3270 sessions. (inside it was really a PC, I'm pretty sure). AFAIR, it took about a cup of coffee before it was ready to log in to TPX. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Fri, 2011-03-11 at 21:25 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I surmise that you have probably never worked in an environment with such SLAs. Boot time is rarely if ever a factor in the evaluation of risk. The only/best way to keep uptimes of 99.998% or more is 1) to reduce change to an absolute minimum and 2) when at all necessary, make sure changes happen during the planned 30min outage window on Christmas Eve.

Wrong, IMNSHO. It is the service that is supposed to have 99.998% availability, not the machine. Anyone not using some sort of HA solution, with redundant machines, is battling statistics, and will eventually lose.

I agree, I was just waiting for someone to bring that up.

For this reason, you are free to run updates with significant downtime on passive machines, and then fail them over, until all machines have been updated.

Which is why, as I'm arguing, boot time is (largely) immaterial. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:46:13 -0800 Greg KH wrote:

...

Boot time for servers do matter for systems where "uptime" is a measured amount and it matters for service contracts. So reducing the boot time from 5 minutes to 1 minute means real money for these providers and is something that everyone should be happy about.

Yes, but to be honest - A brand new server takes > 2 minutes through the BIOS,

Yeah, powering up the drives, initializing the SCSI controllers etcetera. A desktop is actually quite a bit faster done with all that :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/03/11 22:05 (GMT+0100) Stefan Seyfried composed:

... the "put every service in its own cgroup" however is very useful on servers, as soon as someone fixes all the cgroups bugs... :-)

As I mentioned upthread, systemd is not yet mature enough, a high school sophomore or junior better left to mature in high school instead of in openSUSE College, which really doesn't have resources to be wasting on juvenile shenanigans. -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le 11/03/2011 20:26, Kostas Koudaras a écrit :

Am I the only one who does not understand what are we talking about anymore here? I think I lost it many posts before(and I truly read them all), can someone summarize?

one of the most impressive feature of 11.4 is the speed of boot and stop. some people don't see why it's important, some other think it is. That said, we shoud (and by first me) look more at the subject before jumping to give an answer :-( sorry jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:36:45 -0500 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/03/11 22:05 (GMT+0100) Stefan Seyfried composed:

...

... the "put every service in its own cgroup" however is very useful on servers, as soon as someone fixes all the cgroups bugs... :-)

As I mentioned upthread,

...without citing any facts hinting at that you actually are using it and thus know what you're talking about...

systemd is not yet mature enough

It works very well for me, and I look forward to have it on servers, but not for the boot speed improvement, just for the "every service in its own cgroup" feature. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 03/11/2011 11:39 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 11/03/2011 20:17, Vahis a écrit :

...

On 03/11/2011 08:58 PM, jdd wrote:

...

jdd nb: not to say every 20 starts, full fsk...

That can easily be changed:

not sure it's a good idea on a server. On this box, I *need* a safe reboot, better wait than have a corrupted filesystem... also there is an UPS question regarding boot/stop

But if the full check is automatic after some number of mounts you don't have the control over it. I prefer the check when _I_ want it, not the system. The journal is checked at every boot and if there's a problem(s) you'll be prompted to do a manual check, which is fine. I'm talking about automatic _full_ check which I dislike and disable. Vahis -- http://waxborg.servepics.com openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) 2.6.31.14-0.6-default as main host, with guests: openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) 2.6.37.3-16-desktop "Tumbleweed" openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) 2.6.37.1-1.2-desktop -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/03/11 22:44 (GMT+0100) Stefan Seyfried composed:

...without citing any facts hinting at that you actually are using it and thus know what you're talking about...

It's sufficient knowledge merely to subscribe to the Fedora devel and test lists and skim the subject lines to know systemd hasn't yet graduated high school, a measure of maturity which in itself isn't enough to survive in the real world anyway. That it works for some doesn't mean it's ready for everyone. -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Vahis wrote:

On 03/11/2011 11:39 PM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 11/03/2011 20:17, Vahis a écrit :

...

On 03/11/2011 08:58 PM, jdd wrote:

...

jdd nb: not to say every 20 starts, full fsk...

That can easily be changed:

not sure it's a good idea on a server. On this box, I *need* a safe reboot, better wait than have a corrupted filesystem... also there is an UPS question regarding boot/stop

But if the full check is automatic after some number of mounts you don't have the control over it.

I prefer the check when _I_ want it, not the system.

The journal is checked at every boot and if there's a problem(s) you'll be prompted to do a manual check, which is fine.

I'm talking about automatic _full_ check which I dislike and disable.

Ted Tso (the ext4 maintainer) recommends for servers: 1) No auto fsck 2) Put FS on LVM 3) Routinely (from cron) make a snapshot 4) fsck the snapshot and check for errors 5) If errors, notify admin so they can schedule down time to run fsck and fix them. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 03/11/2011 11:02 AM, Greg KH wrote:

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:33:18AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

...

What´s the technology way we want do for the 11.4 successor?

So, are there any great ideas that people want to do?

systemd by default. +1

-- Cheers! Roman "Six by nine. Forty two." "That's it. That's all there is." "I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 03/11/2011 11:52 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/03/11 11:27 (GMT-0500) Jeff Mahoney composed:

...

On 03/11/2011 11:25 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

On 2011/03/11 11:07 (GMT-0500) Jeff Mahoney composed:

...

...

...

...

systemd by default.

...

...

...

plymouth as well.

...

...

Immature, unnecessary st^H^Hfluff. Don't fix what ain't broke. Let Fedora, Mandriva, et al mature them another release or two. F15 is a rat's nest so far, and I'm not even touching Mandriva until the systemd noise dies down on the Cooker list. KMS still isn't fully baked yet even in 11.4, at least, not everything it obsoletes or otherwise impacts.

...

What's gross is the unnecessary kernel code we're carrying around to implement this.

Implement what? I asked here weeks ago where to find a summary of what that stuff's for and got no response. Why does openSUSE still do what I need if I boot vanilla instead of desktop or default? Flicker? Always a non-issue here. Boot time? Who boots a non-test system except to change kernels?

...

This code is exactly what's causing most of your perennial, obscure, console issues.

What's all that extra stuff openSUSE kernels carry good for? I don't have the most annoying of those "issues" with vanilla, Fedora or Mandriva kernels. How can it be so hard to not have a non-black console background and legible fonts?

I've been complaining about this annoying flicker since 10x. It ALWAYS falls on deaf ears. Roman "Six by nine. Forty two." "That's it. That's all there is." "I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

<<<<< snip >>>>>

get rid of /dev/disk/by-id/ in fstab and use /dev/disk/by-uuid/

<<<<<snip >>>>>

Kay

If you get rid of /dev/disk/by-id, How can you identify a partition in event of a partition table failure? Also, if you have a drive failure and have to restore from a backup (disk image), how are you going to partition a new disk which will have different uuids? Tom -- Tom Taylor - retired penguin openSuSE 11.3 x86_64 openSUSE 11.4RC1 x86_64 KDE 4.4.4, FF 3.6.8 KDE 4.5.95, FF 4.0 Beta claws-mail 3.7.8 claws-mail 3.7.8 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 01:22:58 +0100 Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

Only if your BIOS is crap. I've seen server boards which spent >2 minutes in the BIOS, and once the BIOS was replaced with coreboot, the delay magically shrunk to 3-4 seconds (for a big multiprocessor board with all RAM slots populated). With coreboot, the limiting factor is

Depends on how you define "big" and how many "all" means in number. XEN also needs a long time to clean the memory on start and while I'm not suggesting that XEN is doing everything in the best way, and I have no idea of the current memory bandwidth, but assume 20GB/second and you'll need at least one minute to clear memory. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:00:48 -0500 Felix Miata wrote:

It's sufficient knowledge merely to subscribe to the Fedora devel and test lists and skim the subject lines to know systemd hasn't yet graduated high school, a measure of maturity which in itself isn't enough to survive in the real world anyway. That it works for some doesn't mean it's ready for everyone.

Oh. Hearsay. Yes, that's a good advice. Today some guy in the train told me that this Leahnooks can not be used for anything. Probably it's finally time to reformat my drives and install Windows... -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/03/12 11:29 (GMT+0100) Stefan Seyfried composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

It's sufficient knowledge merely to subscribe to the Fedora devel and test lists and skim the subject lines to know systemd hasn't yet graduated

Oh. Hearsay. Yes, that's a good advice.

Hearsay can be an excellent source of information, even wisdom, if the source has a reputation for trustworthiness, and/or when the hearsay can be confirmed through other means, like trying to use Fedora and replicating its reported failures. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=613756#c7

Today some guy in the train told me that this Leahnooks can not be used for anything. Probably it's finally time to reformat my drives and install Windows...

If you trust any old "some guy", maybe you deserve... -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 12 March 2011 11:22:17 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/03/12 11:29 (GMT+0100) Stefan Seyfried composed:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

It's sufficient knowledge merely to subscribe to the Fedora devel and test lists and skim the subject lines to know systemd hasn't yet graduated

Oh. Hearsay. Yes, that's a good advice.

Hearsay can be an excellent source of information, even wisdom, if the source has a reputation for trustworthiness, and/or when the hearsay can be confirmed through other means, like trying to use Fedora and replicating its reported failures. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=613756#c7

...

Today some guy in the train told me that this Leahnooks can not be used for anything. Probably it's finally time to reformat my drives and install Windows...

If you trust any old "some guy", maybe you deserve...

You know i could have sworn this was the opensuse factory list must be mistaken maybe redhat have made a takeover bid time to jump ship if thats the case with their concealments they get up to :-) .. Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.7-0.7-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.5.5 (KDE 4.5.5) "release 1" 12:40 up 2 days 19:53, 4 users, load average: 0.08, 0.09, 0.09 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 03/12/2011 12:01 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Vahis wrote:

...

On 03/11/2011 11:39 PM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 11/03/2011 20:17, Vahis a écrit :

...

On 03/11/2011 08:58 PM, jdd wrote:

...

jdd nb: not to say every 20 starts, full fsk...

That can easily be changed:

not sure it's a good idea on a server. On this box, I *need* a safe reboot, better wait than have a corrupted filesystem... also there is an UPS question regarding boot/stop

But if the full check is automatic after some number of mounts you don't have the control over it.

I prefer the check when _I_ want it, not the system.

The journal is checked at every boot and if there's a problem(s) you'll be prompted to do a manual check, which is fine.

I'm talking about automatic _full_ check which I dislike and disable.

Ted Tso (the ext4 maintainer) recommends for servers:

1) No auto fsck

2) Put FS on LVM

3) Routinely (from cron) make a snapshot

4) fsck the snapshot and check for errors

5) If errors, notify admin so they can schedule down time to run fsck and fix them.

Greg

Now there you might have a point for me to start using LVM :) I've never seen its benefits, but snapshots could be it, thanks :) Vahis -- http://waxborg.servepics.com openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) 2.6.31.14-0.6-default as main host, with guests: openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) 2.6.37.3-16-desktop "Tumbleweed" openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) 2.6.37.1-1.2-desktop -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

That bug is against util-linux-ng, not systemd. -- Jeff Mahoney (mobile) On Mar 12, 2011, at 6:22 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/03/12 11:29 (GMT+0100) Stefan Seyfried composed:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

It's sufficient knowledge merely to subscribe to the Fedora devel and test lists and skim the subject lines to know systemd hasn't yet graduated

...

Oh. Hearsay. Yes, that's a good advice.

Hearsay can be an excellent source of information, even wisdom, if the source has a reputation for trustworthiness, and/or when the hearsay can be confirmed through other means, like trying to use Fedora and replicating its reported failures. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=613756#c7

...

Today some guy in the train told me that this Leahnooks can not be used for anything. Probably it's finally time to reformat my drives and install Windows...

If you trust any old "some guy", maybe you deserve... -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/03/12 16:23 (GMT+0100) KaiRo - Robert Kaiser composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2011/03/11 11:46 (GMT-0800) Greg KH composed:

...

...

I reboot my desktop far more than my laptop due to kernel development, so fast boot here is important.

...

Makes you sound like a developer, not a typical user.

Well, I shutdown my desktop every night and boot it every morning - and my laptop is sent to suspend every time I'm not using it. I guess that

Numerous IRC conversations motivate me to keep logged on regardless whether I'm in any condition to participate in real time. :-)

matches typical users pretty much. And yes, it's good just for power (and energy/nature) saving reasons to shut down systems when not using them. ;-)

Suspend is only for laptops? -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vahis wrote:

On 03/12/2011 12:01 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

Ted Tso (the ext4 maintainer) recommends for servers:

1) No auto fsck

2) Put FS on LVM

3) Routinely (from cron) make a snapshot

4) fsck the snapshot and check for errors

5) If errors, notify admin so they can schedule down time to run fsck and fix them.

Greg

Now there you might have a point for me to start using LVM :)

I've never seen its benefits,

Space management. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 08:02:21 +0100 jdd wrote:

Le 12/03/2011 07:58, Thomas Taylor a écrit :

...

If you get rid of /dev/disk/by-id, How can you identify a partition in event of a partition table failure?

the partition number is still part of the name

Not on my install (11.4 from scratch) unless I modify /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst as shown in the attached screenshots. The only partition number in either one are what I have added, not by the installer which ONLY shows uuids, not partition numbers.

...

Also, if you have a drive failure and have to restore from a backup (disk image), how are you going to partition a new disk which will have different uuids?

if you don't have a "fdisk -l" hard copy, you are in trouble for recovery of the same disk. For an other disk the partitionning have no meaning (only the mount points have)

or may be I don't understand the point

jdd

I always save a backup before any update/install including drive info. How do you ghost a backup that only has uuids when replacing a defective drive (I.E. how do you transfer the uuids which will be different on the new drive)? Tom -- Tom Taylor - retired penguin openSuSE 11.3 x86_64 openSUSE 11.4 x86_64 KDE 4.4.4, FF 3.6.8 KDE 4.5.95, FF 4.0 Beta claws-mail 3.7.8 claws-mail 3.7.8 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net

On 2011/03/14 09:24 (GMT-0700) Thomas Taylor composed:

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Le 12/03/2011 07:58, Thomas Taylor a écrit :

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...

If you get rid of /dev/disk/by-id, How can you identify a partition in event of a partition table failure?

I always save a backup before any update/install including drive info. How do you ghost a backup that only has uuids when replacing a defective drive (I.E. how do you transfer the uuids which will be different on the new drive)?

For several years now we've had the choice of 5 ways to refer to a partition (listed in order of average length): 1-device name 2-by-id 3-by-uuid 4-by-path 5-by-label The middle 3 typically cause lines too long to fit on one line in menu.lst and fstab, and regardless of fit, are immemorable, so I never use them if I can help it. The first is unreliable, which is why the others were created. That leaves #5 as both memorably short (in optional form at least), and reliable, and what I select during installation as long as not using RAID. The shorter fstab syntax you can substitute for cmdline, instead of root=/dev/disk/by-label/hdnickP10suse114 takes the following form root=LABEL=hdnickP10suse114 Since you get to pick your own memorable partition names, why in either menu.lst or fstab use anything else? You can even use labels with swap partitions, by recreating them using the -L switch, same as when using mkfs. -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Op 14-03-11 11:24, Felix Miata schreef:

The shorter fstab syntax you can substitute for cmdline, instead of

root=/dev/disk/by-label/hdnickP10suse114

takes the following form

root=LABEL=hdnickP10suse114

Since you get to pick your own memorable partition names, why in either menu.lst or fstab use anything else? You can even use labels with swap partitions, by recreating them using the -L switch, same as when using mkfs.

I love it! -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.37.1-1.2-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) KDE: 4.6.00 (4.6.0) "release 6" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 07:24, Thomas Taylor wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 08:02:21 +0100 jdd wrote:

...

Le 12/03/2011 07:58, Thomas Taylor a écrit :

...

If you get rid of /dev/disk/by-id, How can you identify a partition in event of a partition table failure?

the partition number is still part of the name

Not on my install (11.4 from scratch) unless I modify /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst as shown in the attached screenshots.  The only partition number in either one are what I have added, not by the installer which ONLY shows uuids, not partition numbers. You must be really unlucky. My 11.4 install, from scratch from DVD shows partition numbers in both menu.1st and /etc/fstab.

HTH ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 14 March 2011 21:52:39 Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

Wow, you have a machine with 1.2 Terabytes RAM? Assuming a RAM module size of 16 GB (biggest I could find), this means at least 75 RAM modules. Could you tell me which x86 board you're talking about? I'm curious because even the Tyan S8232 showcased at Cebit maxes out at 768 GB RAM.

You might want to move beyond the desktop PC platform. Server boards can handle multiple terabytes of RAM. Here, for example, is SGI Altix with 24TB http://www.sgi.com/products/servers/altix/memory.html and here a slightly more standard one from Unisys (I hope the link works, it is the ES7000 7600R G2) with 2TB per board http://unisys.com/unisys/product/productdetail.jsp?id=1120000490000010000&pid=1120000970004610072 Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:52:39 +0100 Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

Auf 12.03.2011 11:23, Stefan Seyfried schrieb:

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Depends on how you define "big" and how many "all" means in number.

4 CPU packages, and 16 DIMM slots, but that was some time ago.

Does certainly not qualify as "big" anymore ;-)

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XEN also needs a long time to clean the memory on start and while I'm not suggesting that XEN is doing everything in the best way, and I have no idea of the current memory bandwidth, but assume 20GB/second and you'll need at least one minute to clear memory.

Wow, you have a machine with 1.2 Terabytes RAM?

1024GB. And for whatever reason, the "scrubbing all available RAM" routine of xen does not get that 20GB/second, since even a small 144GB blade I rebooted today spent over 35 seconds in that state.

Assuming a RAM module size of 16 GB (biggest I could find), this means at least 75 RAM modules. Could you tell me which x86 board you're talking about? I'm curious because even the Tyan S8232 showcased at Cebit maxes out at 768 GB RAM.

HP server blades, probably something like a BL680c G7 or such, not sure about the exact type. You'll get to see pretty interesting kernel problems with hardware of that size, but it's getting offtopic here since unfortunately nobody is going to run FACTORY on those beasts ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 06:24:30 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/03/14 09:24 (GMT-0700) Thomas Taylor composed:

...

...

Le 12/03/2011 07:58, Thomas Taylor a écrit :

...

...

...

If you get rid of /dev/disk/by-id, How can you identify a partition in event of a partition table failure?

...

I always save a backup before any update/install including drive info. How do you ghost a backup that only has uuids when replacing a defective drive (I.E. how do you transfer the uuids which will be different on the new drive)?

For several years now we've had the choice of 5 ways to refer to a partition (listed in order of average length):

1-device name 2-by-id 3-by-uuid 4-by-path 5-by-label

The middle 3 typically cause lines too long to fit on one line in menu.lst and fstab, and regardless of fit, are immemorable, so I never use them if I can help it. The first is unreliable, which is why the others were created. That leaves #5 as both memorably short (in optional form at least), and reliable, and what I select during installation as long as not using RAID.

The shorter fstab syntax you can substitute for cmdline, instead of

root=/dev/disk/by-label/hdnickP10suse114

takes the following form

root=LABEL=hdnickP10suse114

Since you get to pick your own memorable partition names, why in either menu.lst or fstab use anything else? You can even use labels with swap partitions, by recreating them using the -L switch, same as when using mkfs.

Thanks, Felix; I'd forgotten about by-label. That would also solve the replacement problem by creating labeled partitions with PartedMagic. Tom -- Tom Taylor - retired penguin openSuSE 11.3 x86_64 openSUSE 11.4M6 x86_64 KDE 4.4.4, FF 3.6.8 KDE 4.5.95, FF 4.0 Beta claws-mail 3.7.8 claws-mail 3.7.8 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 17:06:20 +0200 (CEST) Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

Well, when is SLES/SLED planning to be updated?

I would not expect the next major version of SUSE Linux Enterprise Server to enter Beta in the next two years.

May I quote you on this? -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org