On 07/06/2011 08:39 AM, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

On 6 July 2011 13:42, Larry Finger wrote:

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This is a request for changing the name of the MS6 release to Beta. The TCT considered several possible changes to entice earlier and broader testing. The schedule does not have much flexibility to increase the time between the RC1 and GM releases, thus we probably need to indulge in some 'social engineering' to get earlier testing. We could change from 6 Milestone and 2 RC releases to 5 and 3, respectively, without tampering with the total time. Alternatively, we could rename from MS6 to Beta. The TCT favors the latter option.

Having been someone who "noticed" RC1 releases then found it was too late to have bug fixes integrated in GM, I think that is very sensible. Hopefully with Tumbleweed& great availability of fresher "stable" and "Head" kernels from repo, the relatively good quality of 12.1 M2 is achievable.

What impact does it have though on deadlines for key projects like systemd, which now require definition& implementation of other changes to port our system start up logic from innserv(8)?

There would be no change in any deadlines or schedules. All that would happen is a name change. We think the Beta would attract more testers than would #6 in the MS series.

If nothing much happens in August, then there's only really a few weeks development time left, even though GM seems almost like "next year"! Whilst really loving quality releases, I would not want unintended consequences affecting a key project for 12.1, which is likely on the "critical path" already.

We certainly agree that a good, stable 12.1 GM is the goal. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch 06 Juli 2011, 22:02:16 schrieb Steven Sroka:

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There would be no change in any deadlines or schedules. All that would happen is a name change. We think the Beta would attract more testers than would #6 in the MS series.

The problem is that we would get more testers if we made a new Milestone/Beta release more prevalent. I think we only post something on new.opensuse.org (which luckily is fed onto the homepage), and planetsuse.org whenever there is a new milestone release.

I think on top of a name change, we should add something more to the opensuse.org website when there is a beta release. A new button together with the Get It, Discover It, and Create It buttons or a new banner on our site like the Fedora or Ubuntu websites.

If the TCT wants more testers we should do as much as we can to help them and make new beta releases easily discoverable to the public and a name change isn't enough on its own.

Maybe there could be a counter to the next event saying "...days to 12.1 Beta, get involved" on the main page linked to the factory download page. On the factory download page a link to the testing page. This would be easy to implement and people see what is going on. Jürgen -- ---------- powered by http://openSUSE.org ---------- Jürgen Radzuweit Am Steinebrück 23 40589 Düsseldorf Telefon : 0211/788 5115 Mobil : 0172/210 4989 EMail : juergen@radzuweit.eu -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hey, On 07.07.2011 10:52, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2011 schrieb Larry Finger:

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This is a request for changing the name of the MS6 release to Beta.

I seriously wonder why you think that beta releases attract more testers - taking that we had "beta"s before and changed to milestones because people were supposedly scared away from the term beta.

The name change might wake up people and gives the news team the opportunity to make some buzz around it (the name change that is) with the message "this is your last chance to do something". I can imagine that this might make a difference.

The question though is: how do you measure if it made any difference?

That's a good one :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I seriously wonder why you think that beta releases attract more testers - taking that we had "beta"s before and changed to milestones because people were supposedly scared away from the term beta. Now you want the term beta back  - but I'm willing to try. The question though is: how do you measure if it made any difference?

Download metrics vs Bug Report metrics ? Either way I believe that Marketing and Communication will have a very important role... The change itself without proper communication support and promotion will most likely not produce much visible results. So my humble suggestion is to coordinate it with Marketing... furthermore... This isn't just something to be left to the week before the release, it has to be done earlier and before the Beta everyone should already be aware of this change and looking forward to the Beta, so Marketing work is by far to be done on a pre-release stage. NM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Larry Finger wrote:

On 07/07/2011 11:11 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

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For what it's worth, I think it is a good idea. Moreover, I offer to try and write up something 'better' for the Beta, provided I get some help from this and other lists. The marketeers (incl myself) need more info on what is new/improved/changed! If we have that, we can write a better announcement with more chance to get it out in the press, on lwn.net etc etc.

If we only have what for example was mentioned in the last Milestone article, it's not very likely to be picked up by press, that's how it works - they need something to write about :D

So if we get some info on what's new and improved, we can introduce the Beta with a bit more of a 'kick', including giving our press a heads-up so we get a good number of articles on news sites and subsequently  a bit more testing.

Jos,

Your comments are very good. Getting the news about a beta and its "features" out to the press and the public should help get better test coverage, and the news will be good as long as we don't release with any show stoppers.

Please let the TCT know of anything you need.

Larry

Larry, Since you're a kernel guy, do you happen to know what the status of btrfs is likely to be in 12.1 I just did some testing with a month old Tumbleweed 2.6.38 kernel and btrfs has locked in mount in my early testing, so that doesn't look so good, but 2.6.39 and 3.0.0 could be much better. btw: what is the name of the post 3.0.0 kernel going to be? 3.0.1? Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 07/07/2011 02:16 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

Since you're a kernel guy, do you happen to know what the status of btrfs is likely to be in 12.1

This kernel guy only knows what is going on in wireless, but you got that info from GregKH, who is much more a kernel cosmopolitan than I.

I just did some testing with a month old Tumbleweed 2.6.38 kernel and btrfs has locked in mount in my early testing, so that doesn't look so good, but 2.6.39 and 3.0.0 could be much better.

Many patches are too invasive to be back ported to a stable release. For that reason, you should see improvements with 2.6.39 and 3.0 (note 2 digit representation).

btw: what is the name of the post 3.0.0 kernel going to be? 3.0.1?

As you have been told, 3.0.1 will be the equivalent of 2.6.39.1, i.e. the first update to the stable release of 3.0, and 3.1 will be the next one after 3.0. Of course, the holder of the Linux trademark is free to change his mind at any time. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2011/7/7 Jürgen Radzuweit : Am Donnerstag 07 Juli 2011, 18:11:49 schrieb Jos Poortvliet:

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On Wednesday 06 July 2011 14:42:26 Larry Finger wrote:

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This is a request for changing the name of the MS6 release to Beta.

The Testing Core Team (TCT) discussed the general problem of testing of new releases. With openQA, the probability that Factory iso's will boot and install is greatly increased; however, with the current system, many users do not start testing until RC1 is ready. As a result, there is very little time for detecting and fixing the bugs that will only be seen with a workload that is diverse. Such early testing will be particularly important for 12.1. Not only have we regularized the release schedule and naming scheme and need to follow through with a high-quality product, but we are behind due to the early build problems.

The TCT considered several possible changes to entice earlier and broader testing. The schedule does not have much flexibility to increase the time between the RC1 and GM releases, thus we probably need to indulge in some 'social engineering' to get earlier testing. We could change from 6 Milestone and 2 RC releases to 5 and 3, respectively, without tampering with the total time. Alternatively, we could rename from MS6 to Beta. The TCT favors the latter option. It might mislead the users/testers a little regarding the quality of the offering, but we don't think calling MS6 "Beta" is misleading. By most definitions, Beta means feature-complete and free of huge bugs - we should be able to get that with MS6.

A beta release should attract more users. In addition, many of us start full-time usage with MS5 or MS6, thus we know it to be usable for many people. Thanks for considering this proposal to further enhance the user experience and the quality of the final 12.1 release.

This proposal is supported (in no particular order) by Larry Finger, Bernhard M. Wiedemann, Refilwe Seete, Holger Sickenberg, Jürgen Radzuweit, Bruno Friedmann, Ismail Doenmez, and Peter Czanik.

For what it's worth, I think it is a good idea. Moreover, I offer to try and write up something 'better' for the Beta, provided I get some help from this and other lists. The marketeers (incl myself) need more info on what is new/improved/changed! If we have that, we can write a better announcement with more chance to get it out in the press, on lwn.net etc etc.

If we only have what for example was mentioned in the last Milestone article, it's not very likely to be picked up by press, that's how it works - they need something to write about :D

So if we get some info on what's new and improved, we can introduce the Beta with a bit more of a 'kick', including giving our press a heads-up so we get a good number of articles on news sites and subsequently  a bit more testing.

We should have a hint on the main page (http://en.opensuse.org/Main_Page). Currently there are the main topics "Project", "Distribution" and "Wiki". Add a topic "Next" or "Beta" to it with links to open fate, factory, roadmap and testing pages.

How many hits does the main page get compared to the home page? If the openSUSE homepage is visited by more people, then a link there would reach a greater audience than the Main Page.

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