[opensuse-factory] harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap.
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time.
It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that? There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions. Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either: We don't yet have a foundation, many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Le 25/10/2011 20:47, Per Jessen a écrit :
decisions. Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either:
if the community stopped working (or forked like libreoffice for openoffice), I'm pretty sure there would be no more openSUSE there is a common work from suse, the volunteer opensuse community and the other sponsors (no forgetting Attachmate), and also all the other projects like kde or gnome, not really opensuse related. So yes, suse have a strong point, but do not give orders jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Kim Leyendecker wrote:
Am 25.10.2011 20:47, schrieb Per Jessen:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time. It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that? There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions. Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either: We don't yet have a foundation, many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger).
guys, please. Read my response and *please* don´t start to discuss on this thread for hell´s good reasons. We all have to manage a release and I still maintain the POV that we could need *every* *single* hand to make it successful.
Please stop writing about such trivial topics right before a release appears.
Kim, if anything, this is not trivial.
Such things should also better happen on opensuse-offtopic, I guess
Surely not - it's very openSUSE/SUSE specific.
there developers around here who are annoyed to hell because we´re spamming there mailboxes and prevent them to do *real* important work.
I'd better not reply to that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 25.10.2011 20:47, schrieb Per Jessen:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time. It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that? There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions. Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either: We don't yet have a foundation, many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger).
guys, please. Read my response and *please* don´t start to discuss on this thread for hell´s good reasons. We all have to manage a release and I still maintain the POV that we could need *every* *single* hand to make it successful. Please stop writing about such trivial topics right before a release appears. Such things should also better happen on opensuse-offtopic, I guess there developers around here who are annoyed to hell because we´re spamming there mailboxes and prevent them to do *real* important work. BTW, sorry for creating confusion, still can´t believe how a bad expression can lead to yet another endless and pointless discussion.... --kdl -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2011 02:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time.
It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that?
Yes I am.
There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions.
What kind of mechanisms are you looking for? For what decisions do we need these mechanisms?
Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either:
Well "someone" made the decision to have KDE as the default desktop, and "someone" made the decision about the new numbering scheme, and "someone" made the decision about the release cycle, and ..... I'll give you a hint, these decisions were not made by SUSE.
We don't yet have a foundation,
That has nothing to do with the direction of the project. I am not sure why everyone thinks that having a foundation will be this "great liberating event". As far as I am concerned there will be a bunch of problems that the community has to deal with that we do not have today. Any volunteer for a treasurer yet? Any volunteers to do fund raising? There's a whole list that Alan is working on for things the community will have to take over once we have a foundation. I am not sure people are aware of all if these things nor am I certain we as a community have the volunteers to do all the work. Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to having a foundation, however, there's a big ball of administrative crap work rolling towards the community and I am not sure we are prepared to deal with it.
many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger).
Well, I think the org chart of SUSE is not the business of the community, and in the end what is the difference if SUSE pays 1, 10, or 20 people to work on openSUSE full time. The project and the community benefits from the contribution. Why is it so hard to just treat us, the SUSE employees as regular community members? Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2011 03:23 PM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
Am 25.10.2011 20:47, schrieb Per Jessen:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time. It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that? There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions. Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either: We don't yet have a foundation, many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger).
guys, please. Read my response and *please* don´t start to discuss on this thread for hell´s good reasons. We all have to manage a release and I still maintain the POV that we could need *every* *single* hand to make it successful.
Please stop writing about such trivial topics right before a release appears.
It is not trivial. If we still have the perception that SUSE controlls openSUSE within our community despite the hard work we have done to eliminate the reasons for this perception then we have a problem that needs to be addressed.
Such things should also better happen on opensuse-offtopic,
This is certainly not offtopic, but should be on the -project list. You are correct, sorry I missed that this was started on -factory.
I guess there developers around here who are annoyed to hell because we´re spamming there mailboxes and prevent them to do *real* important work.
BTW, sorry for creating confusion, still can´t believe how a bad expression can lead to yet another endless and pointless discussion....
--kdl
-- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 25.10.2011 21:17, schrieb Per Jessen:
Kim Leyendecker wrote:
Am 25.10.2011 20:47, schrieb Per Jessen:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
>> > OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to >> > hand control of the project to the community and have opened a >> > lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping >> > on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time. It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that? There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions. Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either: We don't yet have a foundation, many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger).
guys, please. Read my response and*please* don´t start to discuss on this thread for hell´s good reasons. We all have to manage a release and I still maintain the POV that we could need*every* *single* hand to make it successful.
Please stop writing about such trivial topics right before a release appears. Kim, if anything, this is not trivial.
of course. We have to release 12.1 in a month and there things to do before, I guess nobody wants such distraction right now. Can we please concentrate about things which really matters right now (release notes, rc*-testing, preparing the release, etc.)? -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 10/25/2011 02:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time.
It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that?
Yes I am.
There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions.
What kind of mechanisms are you looking for? For what decisions do we need these mechanisms?
Any and all. Or is it just old-fashioned anarchy?
Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either:
Well "someone" made the decision to have KDE as the default desktop, and "someone" made the decision about the new numbering scheme, and "someone" made the decision about the release cycle, and .....
Right, like you say so eloquently, "someone".
I'll give you a hint, these decisions were not made by SUSE.
Don't be shy, give me more than a hint, how were those decisions made? For instance, for a while Frederic Crozat (formerly with Mandriva, now SUSE) has been in charge of coordinating/running/whatever the systemd integration targeted for 12.1 - I don't remember anyone publicly asking the community (paid or otherwise) for volunteers for that job? I don't even remember the community being asked if Frederic was a good candidate. (absolutely NO criticisms aimed at Frederic here).
We don't yet have a foundation,
That has nothing to do with the direction of the project. I am not sure why everyone thinks that having a foundation will be this "great liberating event".
I didn't suggest either. I do however submit that after several years, the lack of a foundation is a problem (although largely symbolic).
As far as I am concerned there will be a bunch of problems that the community has to deal with that we do not have today. Any volunteer for a treasurer yet?
Has there actually been a call for volunteers? I'll volunteer, I have a good Treuhand in Oerlikon who can do the books.
Any volunteers to do fund raising? There's a whole list that Alan is working on for things the community will have to take over once we have a foundation. I am not sure people are aware of all if these things nor am I certain we as a community have the volunteers to do all the work.
Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to having a foundation, however, there's a big ball of administrative crap work rolling towards the community and I am not sure we are prepared to deal with it.
+1
many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger).
Well, I think the org chart of SUSE is not the business of the community,
Nor do I, but an org chart of the openSUSE community is the business of the community, and that is all I asked for. Or is there a reason to keep it from us?
and in the end what is the difference if SUSE pays 1, 10, or 20 people to work on openSUSE full time. The project and the community benefits from the contribution.
The numbers don't matter, the names and jobs do.
Why is it so hard to just treat us, the SUSE employees as regular community members?
Because it, to us outsiders, is so very obvious that you're not. Especially when you insist you are. "The lady doth protest to much, methinks". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 25.10.2011 21:28, schrieb Robert Schweikert:
It is not trivial. If we still have the perception that SUSE controlls openSUSE within our community despite the hard work we have done to eliminate the reasons for this perception then we have a problem that needs to be addressed.
Yes, not trivial in general, but directly for release I prefer to not discuss such topics. That´s all. May I offer you a compromise? We keep a mail of the topic into our mail reader and discuss the topic *after* the release? I think we would benefit from it more then having endless threads now, where the hectic is big and our mailboxes are full anyway. --kdl -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Robert Schweikert wrote:
Such things should also better happen on opensuse-offtopic,
This is certainly not offtopic, but should be on the -project list. You are correct, sorry I missed that this was started on -factory.
I also felt it would be more appropriate on -project, but I didn't want to lose anyone following the thread on -factory. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
OK, my last response. On 10/25/2011 03:56 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 10/25/2011 02:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time.
It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that?
Yes I am.
There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions.
What kind of mechanisms are you looking for? For what decisions do we need these mechanisms?
Any and all. Or is it just old-fashioned anarchy?
Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either:
Well "someone" made the decision to have KDE as the default desktop, and "someone" made the decision about the new numbering scheme, and "someone" made the decision about the release cycle, and .....
Right, like you say so eloquently, "someone".
I'll give you a hint, these decisions were not made by SUSE.
Don't be shy, give me more than a hint, how were those decisions made?
For the version numbering we had a long therad on the -project mailing list and then we voted.
For instance, for a while Frederic Crozat (formerly with Mandriva, now SUSE) has been in charge of coordinating/running/whatever the systemd integration targeted for 12.1 - I don't remember anyone publicly asking the community (paid or otherwise) for volunteers for that job?
This sounds like Jon "Maddog" Hall's favorite tag line. "People are waiting for a letter of permission". That's not how things work. Federic stepped up to the plate and decided he wanted to do this. I do not know why, maybe because Fedora has systemd, maybe he is interested in reducing distribution differences in areas that are rather silly. You'll have to ask Federic about his motivation. He stepped up to the plate and is doing the work. Similar Ilya is stepping up to the plate to maintain KDE3 and he is doing the work, I doubt Ilya sat around an waited for the "letter of permission". Nobody asked my to do anything in the project either, I just do what I do because I like it or because I see a need for things to get done.
I don't even remember the community being asked if Frederic was a good candidate. (absolutely NO criticisms aimed at Frederic here).
Everyone in the community who steps up to work is a good candidate. We, as a community, have no authority to dole out work based on perceived qualifications.
We don't yet have a foundation,
That has nothing to do with the direction of the project. I am not sure why everyone thinks that having a foundation will be this "great liberating event".
I didn't suggest either. I do however submit that after several years, the lack of a foundation is a problem (although largely symbolic).
As far as I am concerned there will be a bunch of problems that the community has to deal with that we do not have today. Any volunteer for a treasurer yet?
Has there actually been a call for volunteers? I'll volunteer, I have a good Treuhand in Oerlikon who can do the books.
Again, why does it take a "call for". If you are interested in doing this job step up to the plate. The people working on the foundation effort are well know, send them an e-mail, join the foundation mailing list, do some of the work that goes along with it. There is no reason to sit around and wait. There will be no "letter of permission".
Any volunteers to do fund raising? There's a whole list that Alan is working on for things the community will have to take over once we have a foundation. I am not sure people are aware of all if these things nor am I certain we as a community have the volunteers to do all the work.
Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to having a foundation, however, there's a big ball of administrative crap work rolling towards the community and I am not sure we are prepared to deal with it.
+1
many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger).
Well, I think the org chart of SUSE is not the business of the community,
Nor do I, but an org chart of the openSUSE community is the business of the community, and that is all I asked for. Or is there a reason to keep it from us?
It's a community there is no org chart. Jos is the community manager, and we have the openSUSE board, that's it as far as organization is concerned. Projects are lead by those that contribute.
and in the end what is the difference if SUSE pays 1, 10, or 20 people to work on openSUSE full time. The project and the community benefits from the contribution.
The numbers don't matter, the names and jobs do.
Why? Everyone is just a member of the community. If you have issues that need "escalation" we have the board.
Why is it so hard to just treat us, the SUSE employees as regular community members?
Because it, to us outsiders, is so very obvious that you're not. Especially when you insist you are. "The lady doth protest to much, methinks".
That one goes both ways, take a look in the mirror. Done, no more replies from me on this thread. Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Le 25/10/2011 21:23, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
today. Any volunteer for a treasurer yet?
yes (may be) - I don't think it's the moment to speak about this. I don't think neither this is so difficult. A Foundation may be as simple as the board registering it or as complicated as discussing a multi $$ fund before hand, what ever we want to do. Let's finish 12.1 before... can wait a month? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 25.10.2011 22:50, schrieb jdd:
Le 25/10/2011 21:23, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
today. Any volunteer for a treasurer yet?
yes (may be) - I don't think it's the moment to speak about this. I don't think neither this is so difficult. A Foundation may be as simple as the board registering it or as complicated as discussing a multi $$ fund before hand, what ever we want to do. Let's finish 12.1 before... can wait a month?
+1 said ~ 3 posts before ;-) -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Why is it so hard to just treat us, the SUSE employees as regular community members?
Because it, to us outsiders, is so very obvious that you're not. Especially when you insist you are. "The lady doth protest to much, methinks". This I find very odious. SUSE employees spend plenty of their unpaid time on openSUSE... and need I remind the "commmunity" who started openSUSE? Or who
On Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:56:20 PM Per Jessen wrote: pays for the infrastructure, like the OBS rendering farm? You signed up with this knowledge, not coerced. You could have joined Debian or some other project that does not have any corporate sponsorship or oversight. In regards to SUSE controlling openSUSE, I wish they did more! Quite frankly we have to herd cats to get anything done, hell its more like herding battling clans of cats. We can either stop this nonsense, or force SUSE by our ingratitude and ineptitude to step in to maintain the viability of their investment in the open source community project Novell spun off. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2011 4:20 PM, Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, my last response.
On 10/25/2011 03:56 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 10/25/2011 02:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time.
It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that?
Yes I am.
There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions.
What kind of mechanisms are you looking for? For what decisions do we need these mechanisms?
Any and all. Or is it just old-fashioned anarchy?
Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either:
Well "someone" made the decision to have KDE as the default desktop, and "someone" made the decision about the new numbering scheme, and "someone" made the decision about the release cycle, and .....
Right, like you say so eloquently, "someone".
I'll give you a hint, these decisions were not made by SUSE.
Don't be shy, give me more than a hint, how were those decisions made?
For the version numbering we had a long therad on the -project mailing list and then we voted.
Who the heck is on -project? There are eleventy-seven opensuse mail lists and it's unreasonable to subscribe to them all. This stuff needs to be on a wiki and web forum that's easy for anyone to browse, search, and comment, requiring only one site login registration, not subscribing to dozens of different mail lists and then having to set up dozens of mail filter rules in your mail client, and then having to use that mail client on that one pc all the time because your mail servers web mail interface can't do all that and doing that much setup on multiple random pc's is ridiculous... It can still be email too at the same time like yahoo groups or google groups etc because sometimes email IS the most efficient for some workflows. I frankly hate the idea. I want an OS that is solidly tested and has some distinct changes to account for the version change, not one that was pushed out ready or not because an arbitrary date arrived.
For instance, for a while Frederic Crozat (formerly with Mandriva, now SUSE) has been in charge of coordinating/running/whatever the systemd integration targeted for 12.1 - I don't remember anyone publicly asking the community (paid or otherwise) for volunteers for that job?
This sounds like Jon "Maddog" Hall's favorite tag line. "People are waiting for a letter of permission". That's not how things work. Federic stepped up to the plate and decided he wanted to do this.
What a STUPID reason to change such a major and core component of the OS! It affects every package that attempts to know about booting and shutting down or starting/stopping any service or daemon! That is NOT the only reason this is happening. I would have happily "stepped up" and prevented the wiki from being overhauled the way it was. It happened anyways. More of that non-existing suse control...
Similar Ilya is stepping up to the plate to maintain KDE3 and he is doing the work, I doubt Ilya sat around an waited for the "letter of permission".
And Ilya gets thwarted at every step. Plenty of users want kde3, only a few people at SUSE do not, and so he gets no help and users get no supported kde3 nor kde3 live iso nor kde3 install option. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:54:39 -0400
"Brian K. White"
Who the heck is on -project? There are eleventy-seven opensuse mail lists and it's unreasonable to subscribe to them all. This stuff needs to be on a wiki and web forum that's easy for anyone to browse, search, and comment, requiring only one site login registration, not subscribing to dozens of different mail lists and then having to set up dozens of mail filter rules in your mail client, and then having to use that mail client on that one pc all the time because your mail servers web mail interface can't do all that and doing that much setup on multiple random pc's is ridiculous... It can still be email too at the same time like yahoo groups or google groups etc because sometimes email IS the most efficient for some workflows.
Hi Just use gmane.org, I have them all in there own little area on claws-mail. If it isn't on the list, they are happy to add which i have done for a couple. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.37.6-0.7-desktop up 1 day 10:56, 5 users, load average: 0.28, 0.31, 0.27 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 285.05.09 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2011 04:50 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 25/10/2011 21:23, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
today. Any volunteer for a treasurer yet?
yes (may be) - I don't think it's the moment to speak about this. I don't think neither this is so difficult. A Foundation may be as simple as the board registering it or as complicated as discussing a multi $$ fund before hand, what ever we want to do. Let's finish 12.1 before... can wait a month?
jdd
I agree. Can we please take a break with this waste of bandwidth. Or move the chit-chat to another mailing list. We have more important topics to deal with such as 12.1. Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, October 25, 2011 05:54:39 PM Brian K. White wrote:
On 10/25/2011 4:20 PM, Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, my last response.
On 10/25/2011 03:56 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 10/25/2011 02:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time.
It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that?
Yes I am.
There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions.
What kind of mechanisms are you looking for? For what decisions do we need these mechanisms?
Any and all. Or is it just old-fashioned anarchy?
Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly
isn't controlled by the community either: Well "someone" made the decision to have KDE as the default desktop, and "someone" made the decision about the new numbering scheme, and "someone" made the decision about the release cycle, and .....
Right, like you say so eloquently, "someone".
I'll give you a hint, these decisions were not made by SUSE.
Don't be shy, give me more than a hint, how were those decisions made?
For the version numbering we had a long therad on the -project mailing list and then we voted.
Who the heck is on -project? There are eleventy-seven opensuse mail lists and it's unreasonable to subscribe to them all. This stuff needs to be on a wiki and web forum that's easy for anyone to browse, search, and comment, requiring only one site login registration, not subscribing to dozens of different mail lists and then having to set up dozens of mail filter rules in your mail client, and then having to use that mail client on that one pc all the time because your mail servers web mail interface can't do all that and doing that much setup on multiple random pc's is ridiculous... It can still be email too at the same time like yahoo groups or google groups etc because sometimes email IS the most efficient for some workflows.
I frankly hate the idea. I want an OS that is solidly tested and has some distinct changes to account for the version change, not one that was pushed out ready or not because an arbitrary date arrived.
For instance, for a while Frederic Crozat (formerly with Mandriva, now SUSE) has been in charge of coordinating/running/whatever the systemd integration targeted for 12.1 - I don't remember anyone publicly asking the community (paid or otherwise) for volunteers for that job?
This sounds like Jon "Maddog" Hall's favorite tag line. "People are waiting for a letter of permission". That's not how things work. Federic stepped up to the plate and decided he wanted to do this.
What a STUPID reason to change such a major and core component of the OS! It affects every package that attempts to know about booting and shutting down or starting/stopping any service or daemon!
That is NOT the only reason this is happening.
I would have happily "stepped up" and prevented the wiki from being overhauled the way it was. It happened anyways. More of that non-existing suse control...
Similar Ilya is stepping up to the plate to maintain KDE3 and he is doing the work, I doubt Ilya sat around an waited for the "letter of permission".
And Ilya gets thwarted at every step. Plenty of users want kde3, only a few people at SUSE do not, and so he gets no help and users get no supported kde3 nor kde3 live iso nor kde3 install option. Generally, I agree with your sentiments. I personally love KDE4, if a community rallies around KDE3 then it will gain traction. On a side note, in regards to our obvious and painful disorganization I and some others are evaluating adapting Kablink which is the open source version of Novell Vibe for much of this purpose. We of course need to see what can be done with that before even presenting it to the community. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, October 25, 2011 20:47:00 Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time.
It's surely a fact nonetheless. Are you disputing that? There are very few (if any) mechanisms for the community at large to make community decisions. Perhaps openSUSE isn't controlled by SUSE, but it certainly isn't controlled by the community either: We don't yet have a foundation, many key "community" positions are (apparently) occupied by SUSE staff. We can't even get an official list of who is staff and who isn't (a while ago I asked about an organigramm and only got given a long run-around by Andreas Jaeger).
You asked for an organigramm - and not for who works for SUSE and who not. And there is no organigramm for openSUSE. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25.10.2011 21:56, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
Well "someone" made the decision to have KDE as the default desktop, and "someone" made the decision about the new numbering scheme, and "someone" made the decision about the release cycle, and .....
Right, like you say so eloquently, "someone".
I'll give you a hint, these decisions were not made by SUSE.
I don't remember the details, but KDE was made default on 11.3 (or .4?) again after some loud community complaints and some poll. Too bad, now I always need to check I don't accidentally use the default setting ;) For the numbering scheme there was a poll, at least amongst opensuse members. And I even voted, but I no longer remember what (as it wasn't important to me, i surely did not vote for the current scheme, I would have liked something like Mandriva/Ubuntu does better).
Don't be shy, give me more than a hint, how were those decisions made? For instance, for a while Frederic Crozat (formerly with Mandriva, now SUSE) has been in charge of coordinating/running/whatever the systemd integration targeted for 12.1 - I don't remember anyone publicly asking the community (paid or otherwise) for volunteers for that job? I don't even remember the community being asked if Frederic was a good candidate. (absolutely NO criticisms aimed at Frederic here).
That's simple. Nobody else wanted to do the work. It also works the other way round: had a Per Jessen come along and said "it is nice that Frederic does this, but *I* would really like to do that, may I?", then some discussion would have evolved and you now might be in the position to do all the systemd integration work... Having it as a default was IMHO based on an informal poll on the mailinglists. There surely was some discussion on -factory (I don't read the other lists) and people voiced their opinions. I cannot exactly say who finally decided on systemd being the default, but I'd guess it was coolo (as the project manager) and I do not feel like I had been excluded from that decision. Now you'll probably say that "all the important jobs like project manager are occupied by SUSE employees" and I will answer "go for it, if you want one of those jobs I will do everything I can to help you get it". If we then find out that those ugly SUSE bastards are glued to their seats and just don't want to give up anything to the community, well, then I'll happily support your claims.
We don't yet have a foundation,
That has nothing to do with the direction of the project. I am not sure why everyone thinks that having a foundation will be this "great liberating event".
I didn't suggest either. I do however submit that after several years, the lack of a foundation is a problem (although largely symbolic).
As far as I am concerned there will be a bunch of problems that the community has to deal with that we do not have today. Any volunteer for a treasurer yet?
Shhhh Robert, keep quiet. I'm happy that we don't yet have to do that stuff ;-)
Why is it so hard to just treat us, the SUSE employees as regular community members?
Because it, to us outsiders, is so very obvious that you're not. Especially when you insist you are. "The lady doth protest to much, methinks".
IMVHO the openSUSE project is very much a meritocracy: they who do the work also get to decide where the project is going. Right now, lots of work is still done by SUSE employees. But for example, we are right now seeing an old desktop (which SUSE as a company surely does not want to reappear on a product) re-emerge from the grave, because a community member is doing the job. When I stepped up and said "I want pdftk in the product and I volunteer to maintain it", there was no problem for me getting it accepted. People stepped up to add and maintain LXDE and XFCE and this were IIRC mostly non-SUSE people. Those are in the product. OTOH, those doing lots of talking tend to get ignored by the technicians (as I am one)... simply because our resources are limited, too :) Best regards -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 26.10.2011 02:54, Brian K. White wrote:
Plenty of users want kde3, only a few people at SUSE do not
I'm not at SUSE and still I am not supportive of the idea of having KDE3 back as an "official" desktop. Just to correct the facts. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/26/2011 11:13 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Now you'll probably say that "all the important jobs like project manager are occupied by SUSE employees" and I will answer "go for it, if you want one of those jobs I will do everything I can to help you get it". If we then find out that those ugly SUSE bastards are glued to their seats and just don't want to give up anything to the community, well, then I'll happily support your claims.
I think you make a very good point here. First, nobody prevents you to try a new booting mechanism. You have all the tools in openSUSE to build your own spin of the distribution with not only a new booting mechanism but a different desktop, kernel, package set, etc. Have an idea? Go and produce the .iso. Tell the community to try it and convince them to be the default. This of course means you have to maintain it. Now, for the default released distribution, the project manager gets to decide what combination of pieces he needs for assembling the product. Don't like that? Then step up as project manager of your own alternative image and convince the community that the alternative is better than the default. The bad news? all those jobs where you get to decide a lot are all full-time jobs. So make sure you know what you are doing before you step up. The good news? You don't need to ask to help. Just like Bernhard set openqa up and started helping with testing, you don't need to "ask" to do something. You do it in parallel, you do a fork. If it is good it will be considered. And you will get to decide more. In FOSS, quite a lot of people think that having an opinion makes them contributors. Sadly, everyone has an opinion. -- Duncan Mac-Vicar P. - http://www.suse.com/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, this thread is off-topic on opensuse-factory. Take it somewhere else, preferably to opensuse-offtopic. Thank you in advance. Henne -- Mailing List Admin http://lists.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Brian K. White -
Duncan Mac-Vicar P. -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd -
Kim Leyendecker -
Malcolm -
Per Jessen -
Robert Schweikert -
Roger Luedecke -
Roman Bysh -
Stefan Seyfried