Such a regression highlighted on the news ? :) go go marketing... You just sunk my battleship! NM 2011/9/19 Kostas Koudaras <warlordfff@gmail.com>:

2011/9/19 Greg KH <gregkh@suse.de>:

...

Due to a number of interdependancies on packages that are not ready for Tumbleweed, and other interactions with the system that are causing problems for some users, I'm going to remove systemd from Tumbleweed today to allow the developers to spend more time on getting it stable for Factory and 12.1 instead of having to chase down problems that are specific to Tumbleweed only.

So if you have installed systemd in Tumbleweed, I suggest you now remove it with a simple:        zypper rm systemd

thanks,

greg k-h

Pretty interesting, I think we should make an article on news about that...

...

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Le 19/09/2011 22:31, Kostas Koudaras a écrit :

2011/9/19 Nelson Marques<nmo.marques@gmail.com>:

...

Such a regression highlighted on the news ? :)

I think that there is nothing wrong in being honest to people,in my opinion is shows that you appreciate the user and the user respects you more after that.

make the article when the fix is found, if not Frederic will have an hearth attack :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2011/9/19 Greg KH <gregkh@suse.de>:

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:42:23PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Le 19/09/2011 22:31, Kostas Koudaras a écrit :

...

2011/9/19 Nelson Marques<nmo.marques@gmail.com>:

...

Such a regression highlighted on the news ? :)

I think that there is nothing wrong in being honest to people,in my opinion is shows that you appreciate the user and the user respects you more after that.

make the article when the fix is found, if not Frederic will have an hearth attack :-)

What "fix"?

I did this _after_ discussing it with Fredric and we both agreed that this was the most prudent thing to do.

Remember, the definition of Tumbleweed is "openSUSE with the latest stable packages."  And systemd right now is not "stable" in Tumbleweed and is causing a lot of problems with users trying it out there.

So it makes sense to remove it, and save development effort to getting it working properly in Factory for 12.1.  If it happens to stabilize before 12.1 is released, then we will consider adding it back to Tumbleweed.

And yes, I have no problem haveing it show up in the openSUSE news if needed, it shows that Tumbleweed is all about not breaking stuff, which I'm sure users appreciate.  It also shows how it is able to roll stuff back to a known-working level and ensure that the system all operate properly.

Being one of the most important features on 12.1, I don't believe news highlights on being removed from Tumbleweed would bring any value at all, not to mention that such visibility can make a few obscure opinion-makers and press pound openSUSE, see it as 'minimizing the collateral damage' on the main efforts around systemd. Just my opinion... NM

thanks,

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On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Being one of the most important features on 12.1, I don't believe news highlights on being removed from Tumbleweed would bring any value at all, not to mention that such visibility can make a few obscure opinion-makers and press pound openSUSE, see it as 'minimizing the collateral damage' on the main efforts around systemd. Just my opinion...

Whatever marketers think, this kind of news is the kind of news you have to publish regardless. It's like security patches.

Sticking your head in a hole and pretending everything's alright only sabotages credibility.

I don't use tumbleweed, but I have for a long time regarded openSUSE as a very serious distro, and would be very disappointed if the decision not to publish this significant move is done because "it would hurt our image". -- +1 I am a Tumbleweed user and if I was not subscribed to Factory ML I would like someone to tell me that... Anyway I will make this article first thing in the morning and let the other decide but I don't think that this can hurt Tumbleweed in any way, on the contrary I strongly believe it shows how serious this

2011/9/20 Claudio Freire <klaussfreire@gmail.com>: project is and that people can actually trust those who lead it.

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On Montag 19 September 2011 23:17:35 Kostas Koudaras wrote:

I am a Tumbleweed user and if I was not subscribed to Factory ML I would like someone to tell me that...

Well, then there should be a mailing list, RSS feed or whatever that lists package additions, removals, and upgrades. A whole article about every single package that's being added or removed seems crazy to me. So defaulting Tumbleweed to systemd at the same time as Factory without any throughout testing in Factory when OTOH KR 4.7.1 is AFAIK still blocked because it's allegedly too unstable was a pretty strange decision but making a huge public fuss about it doesn't seem right. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

systemd is available on 11.4, isn't it? So it would revert to 11.4's older version, wouldn't it? That would probably cause more issues if people aren't fully aware that systemd has been removed from Tumbleweed. Cheers, Shah On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Greg KH <gregkh@suse.de> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 02:23:02AM +0200, Markus Slopianka wrote:

...

On Montag 19 September 2011 23:17:35 Kostas Koudaras wrote:

...

I am a Tumbleweed user and if I was not subscribed to Factory ML I would like someone to tell me that...

Well, then there should be a mailing list, RSS feed or whatever that lists package additions, removals, and upgrades. A whole article about every single package that's being added or removed seems crazy to me.

So defaulting Tumbleweed to systemd at the same time as Factory without any throughout testing in Factory when OTOH KR 4.7.1 is AFAIK still blocked because it's allegedly too unstable was a pretty strange decision but making a huge public fuss about it doesn't seem right.

Tumbleweed NEVER defaulted to use systemd.  The only reason I added it there was because it was (at the time) able to run properly on Tumbleweed systems and people wanted to test it out.

That's all, no default got changed, this only affected people who knew what they were doing in the first place, not "normal" users of Tumbleweed at all.

Hope this helps clear things up.

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Currently, systemd is the path to the dark side of stability. systemd leads to bugzilla. bugzilla leads to developers. developers leads to suffering. Careful in your decisions you should be. If you think of systemd as a vital part of OpenSUSE, making an article or just a reference for its removal should be the right feedback to the community of Tumbleweed. On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Greg KH <gregkh@suse.de> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 03:04:11PM +1200, M. B. Shah wrote:

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systemd is available on 11.4, isn't it? So it would revert to 11.4's older version, wouldn't it?

Yes it will.

...

That would probably cause more issues if people aren't fully aware that systemd has been removed from Tumbleweed.

Not really, it just reverts back to the functionality (or lack thereof) of systemd in 11.4 :)

But again, you had to specifically enable systemd to boot with it, and I think the number of people who did that are _very_ low based on the bug reports we got.  So they are smart enough to notice this.

greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Let me buy you a beer first and get started later \m/ ;) On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Greg KH <gregkh@suse.de> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 10:20:42PM +0300, Panos Georgiadis wrote:

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Currently, systemd is the path to the dark side of stability.

Currently, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You also top-post, making you smell of elderberries, and your mom, oh, don't get me started...

There, this should liven up my day :)

greg k-h

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On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 6:29 PM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:

I just say to wait to publish in the news that the solution be found that allows us to include systemd again.

That doesn't work. The announcement has to be done close to the time systemd is removed, becuase if you do it late, it's useless. The idea is to warn people of big changes to come. And a solution could be found a long time from now. It's like not announcing at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 02:13:14PM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

But the announcement/article was not *negative*, but informative and shows that we want to "get it right".

I cannot see that we "are being *shelled*", whatever that stands for.

ps: these posts read a lot better when we adhere to the posting-guidelines :^).

I pretty much think that a lot of people do not know what Tumbleweed is outside of openSUSE and so it might be seen as "not ready for openSUSE". That we continue the integration and it likely will be in openSUSE 12.1 should probably have been mentioned alongside our publications. But then again ... it is news today ... forgotten tomorrow. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org