On 06/03/29 10:37 Henne Vogelsang apparently typed:

On Wednesday, March 29, 2006 at 10:33:50, Felix Miata wrote:

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I've been running Mandriva devel (Cooker) for several years. Last week I installed factory from ftp. Now I want to update. This was a simple 2 step process in Cooker: 1-urpmi-update -a; 2-urpmi --auto-select. The options in YaST Control Center don't seem to have an equivalent, and looking on http://en.opensuse.org/ doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere. Can someone please point me to instructions for how this is done in factory?

YaST -> System Update

I tried that early on. It tells me "the installed product is not compatible with the product on the installation media. If you try to update using the current installation media, the system may not start or some applications may not run properly." Installation source is set exclusively to my closest mirror: ftp://ftp.cise.ufl.edu/pub/mirrors/suse/opensuse/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/ -- "Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord." Psalm 119:11 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/

Ulrich Windl wrote: ...

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YaST -> System Update

Actually, I never found out what that is supposed to do. It seems you cannot upgrade (e.g. 9.2 -> 9.3) using that. So should it be a kind of YOU using the

Sure you can. But you have to remove the 9.2 installation source first, then add the 9.3 installation source, then do system upgrade. -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v FOSDEM 2006 -- 25+26 February 2006 in Brussels

On 30 Mar 2006 at 10:20, Pascal Bleser wrote:

Ulrich Windl wrote: ...

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YaST -> System Update

Actually, I never found out what that is supposed to do. It seems you cannot upgrade (e.g. 9.2 -> 9.3) using that. So should it be a kind of YOU using the

Sure you can. But you have to remove the 9.2 installation source first, then add the 9.3 installation source, then do system upgrade.

Should be copied to the help text Yast is displaying ;-) Ulrich

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd wrote:

Ulrich Windl wrote:

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On 30 Mar 2006 at 10:20, Pascal Bleser wrote:

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Ulrich Windl wrote: ...

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YaST -> System Update Actually, I never found out what that is supposed to do. It seems you cannot upgrade (e.g. 9.2 -> 9.3) using that. So should it be a kind of YOU using the Sure you can. But you have to remove the 9.2 installation source first, then add the 9.3 installation source, then do system upgrade.

Should be copied to the help text Yast is displaying ;-)

AFAIK system _upgrade_ cannot be done like this, needs a kernel change, so must be done with the install/update procedure

That's what the "system update" option in yast2 is for. It's for that and for nothing else ;) "needs a kernel change"... and your point is ... ? If you upgrade from, say, 10.0 to 10.1, you'll have an upgrade of the kernel package (unless you've installed KOTD ;)). And even if you don't, I think "system upgrade" forces a reinstallation of the kernel package anyway (AFAICT).

always the update/upgrade confusion?

I agree, it would better be called "system upgrade" instead of "system update". "update" implies it is meant for staying on the same SUSE version but updating every package to the latest available version. You can achieve that with yast2's "system update" as well, but that's not what it is meant for, and... it will force the reinstallation of the kernel. Doing it the proper way is a pain in yast2 btw: select categories, go to "zzz", and choose "update all" (or something like that). That's not very intuitive. But maybe it's something most people shouldn't do anyway, also because the SUSE Linux RPMs that are on the HTTP/FTP servers have higher release numbers than the ones on the media (although they're the same packages), so you'll probably end up downloading 1GB of files with 80% just keeping the same effective version/release. Of course, only if you have added a HTTP/FTP repository of SUSE Linux to your list of installation sources ;) Let's hope for a better engine with Zen/libzypp, because frankly, when compared to smart or apt-rpm, YaST2's package management engine is pretty weak. I mean, smart _never_ has to ask how to resolve a conflict, it just does exactly what you tell it to do (but at the expense of using a _lot_ of memory, as it has to have all the necessary repository metadata in memory to be so... smart ;)). cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFELNvGr3NMWliFcXcRAkYFAJwMqcph4u3syl8DPrrvVkwnrmNr+QCfeku/ kdH/N8wzJvDeoqk6GR7NiP8= =wWbI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

jdd wrote:

Pascal Bleser wrote:

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Doing it the proper way is a pain in yast2 btw: select categories, go to "zzz", and choose "update all" (or something like that). That's not very intuitive.

I don't know if it's really the same discussion... I can open a new thread if you think so :-) but there are always problem defining what all this mean. I was said recently that it was no more usefull to make bugreports about 10.0 if not security ones. so it's not clear to me of what exactly YOU, update and upgrade do.

- YOU: online updates: packages provided by SUSE to fix security issues and sometimes severe bug fixes. No feature upgrades, only for security fixes. - update: well... that's what is kind of missing in yast2 (to do it, it's like I described in my previous mail). It's just when you want to have the latest available version of some or all packages that are installed on your system. - upgrade: upgrade the whole distribution, e.g. from 10.0 to 10.1

specially seeing that SUSE packages are always way behind the ones found on the devs web site. it's not a complain at all, it's not possible to follow each and any package, but a clarification is always good.

I think this has been discussed at least a dozen times, but... You don't want to have the latest version of everything. Really, you don't. And even if you think you want that, you don't. Novell releases versions of SUSE Linux, that are kind of snapshots of one version of every single package that is shipped within the distribution. Those packages are tested, both by the SUSE QA team and by beta-testers (that's us). That means that, for example, SUSE Linux 10.0 is a consistent, well tested set of packages that all have a certain version. Now, if you had a distribution that was permanently "moving" because it would always provide the latest version of every single package it includes, you would: - have issues with repositories and infrastructure, as we already see with factory: it's not synced everywhere because it changes every day, metadata for several thousands of packages has to be generated again and again - have a very, very unstable system because there is no time nor manpower available to constantly test every single release of every single package that's in the distribution - have a very, very unstable system because problems don't only happen inside the scope of a single package, but also between interactions of different packages (e.g. the kernel and X-Window DRI drivers, the GTK2 version and GIMP, etc...), which means that in theory, you would need to test a large part of the distribution (e.g. every single application that uses GTK2 or GNOME if you upgrade the gtk2 package) with every single package update Do you really want that ? I don't think so ;) If you want the latest version of some application or library, use 3rd party repositories like Packman, James Ogley's, mine, or one of the many suser-* repositories hosted on gwdg.de Those packages are mostly *not* tested, except by the users themselves. We usually only package leafs of the dependency graph. I mean, end-user applications like kaffeine, k3b, gimp, stuff like that. Libraries (that, by their very nature, can affect a lot of applications when they have bugs or incompatibilities) are less frequent in our repositories.

*what are the packages patched by SUSE? these ones should be

YOU provides patched packages for every single package that a) is part of the SUSE Linux distribution b) has a security flaw fixed by the patch Also note that, as long as it is technically feasible, the SUSE packagers don't provide new versions of a package when it has a security issue. They rather backport the patch that fixes the problem to the version that is currently shipped with the distribution. For example, in SUSE 10.0 you have the following kernel package: kernel-default-2.6.13-15 Now, imagine there's a security flaw in that package, that is fixed by the kernel developers in 2.6.14 or 2.6.15 Well, to avoid introducing a lot of side-effects and a lot of code changes, the SUSE kernel packagers will backport the patch that fixes the security flaw that was made by the kernel devs in 2.6.15 to the 2.6.13-15 codebase. YOU will then ship a kernel-default-2.6.13.15.1

taken from SUSE repositories to keep in sync with the distro. I beg these ones are updated by YOU? may be there are several kind of patches (enhancement, distribution adaptation, security?).

Only security, no feature enhancements. I hope the reasons are understood, from what I wrote above ;) To summarize: the more changes, the more risks that things break.

*what packages are changed by an update?

Those that you select when you say that you want to update them.

*what packages are changed by an upgrade?

When you do a distribution upgrade ? (what is named "system update" in yast2) The 10.0 packages will be replaced by the packages shipped on 10.1.

I think that initially the http://en.opensuse.org/Product_Highlights page was said to give this: what is different from the previous version. I now don't give this info.

s/give/have/ ? I think that will be available when 10.1 is released.

Probably it should be worth to have a list of all the packages ever used in SUSE (raw) with a quotation mark in the distro number (column-or better the version number).

You gotta be kidding. Why don't you do it yourself ?

But this needs any kind of sorting, because there are a great many :-)

$ zgrep 'src.rpm$' INDEX.gz | wc -l 2643 $ zgrep -E '\.(i586|i686|noarch)\.rpm$' INDEX.gz | wc -l 5710

may be it could be worth a database app with entried for packages, versions (initial, last updated), SUSE versions. but I don't know how to integrate this in the wiki (by the way don't Novell/Suse have already such data???)

That can be done from the INDEX.gz file that's on every SUSE Linux CD, it has a list of all packages (of all files on the media, actually). At least that can be used to compare versions from one SUSE Linux release to another. It doesn't track the Online Updates, obviously. You don't really want to have a "database" on a wiki page that lists almost 6000 items, don't you ? ;) And anyway, how would that be useful to anyone ? Why would you want to have that information ? cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v FOSDEM 2006 -- 25+26 February 2006 in Brussels

On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 12:56:23PM +0200, houghi wrote:

On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 12:19:32PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

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- YOU: online updates: packages provided by SUSE to fix security issues and sometimes severe bug fixes. No feature upgrades, only for security fixes. - update: well... that's what is kind of missing in yast2 (to do it, it's like I described in my previous mail). It's just when you want to have the latest available version of some or all packages that are installed on your system. - upgrade: upgrade the whole distribution, e.g. from 10.0 to 10.1

There should be also a YOU for additional repo's. I asume the reason it won't work now is that YOU only looks at 1 URL. I personally want my system as close to SUSE as possible, wich means I do not use newer versions from e.g. Packman. The sole reason I do this is because I am too lazy to look if any packages need a security update.

I select the SUSE packages and only use e.g. the Pasckman packages if something does not work.

This will be doable with 10.1. Ciao, Marcus

On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 01:19:02PM +0200, Ulrich Windl wrote:

Occasionally I think: "It can only become better" (reason for upgrade)

The golden rule is still: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It can only become better" is wrong, because there is a second option to becoming better. It can become worse. Not having the ability to recieve security updates for software automaticaly is what I call 'become worse'. The system not doing what you expect ity to do, becayuse a feature has been remoced is what I cal 'become worse'. Security first, added stuff second. If not, you get software that is accessible from the outside world to use you as a spam proxy, for example. Or that breaks you system alltogether. There are other disadvatages, but the reason "It can only become better" is about the worst reason to update. What it implies is "It can get worse." Well, it can. It won't be the first time somebody tells: I had version 72.1723/282-626.d running and updated to 72.1723/282-626.e and now something else does not work anymore. The ONLY real reason to update is when things go from 10 to 11, because, MAN, it goes to ELEVEN!!!1!!!1

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e.g. update from Firefox 1.0 to 1.5. Day that a security leak is found in 6 months. My 1.0 will be patched by SUSE (Thanks guys and girls) most peoples 1.5 won't be patched, because they asume YOU will do it for them.

Firefox 1.5 is expected to patch itself.

OK, bad example. Postfix a better exanple, or any other deamon? This is about the idea, not about each and every individual package. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

jdd wrote:

except for mediawiki _opensuse_ is severely in danger (1.5.6, last security 1.5.8, 1.6 due next week)

quotes from the dev list: 1.5.6!? WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING RUNNING SOFTWARE THAT OLD? UPGRADE,

MAN!

so, Novell, upgrade, please :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Hello, Am Freitag, 31. März 2006 09:35 schrieb Pascal Bleser:

I agree, it would better be called "system upgrade" [...] and... it will force the reinstallation of the kernel.

Known bug - and fixed in 10.1: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=117461 Regards, Christian Boltz -- Ich benutze ja auch kein evim. Wenn ich was anderes als vim benutze, erkennt man das daran, daß ich sehr schnell irgendwas mit einen Haufen jjj vollmülle. ;) [Bernd Brodesser in suse-linux]