[opensuse-factory] RFC: spliting opensuse-factory
Hi, During the conference and also before in communication to developers I very often heard the argument that they don't read opensuse-factory because it's so high traffic. Many postings I see actually belong to opensuse-testing or even directly into bugzilla, but many have no better home atm. So I see the need for 3 communication channels, that can be the same: - A list for development, where upcoming changes are discussed, where developers can either announce changes or where we discuss who helps with what features. - A list where to announce issues every factory user might hit. This affects broken repositories, broken kernel updates, broken grub. This does _not_ affect broken KDE, broken GNOME, broken applications - those have a better place in opensuse-kde, opensuse-gnome, opensuse-testing - A list where users can discuss (with developers) on how features are implemented, provide their feedback, etc. All those 3 are currently opensuse-factory and from what I see many developers ignore it because mainly the last point increases the volume of this list. (450 posts in june, 506 in july, 861 in august, 1001 last november :) So while this is not a desaster volume, I think we should still discuss if there are better ways to setup our communication. I see three options: 1. make opensuse-factory moderated for a while and make people that abuse opensuse-factory not to subscribe to -kde, -gnome or -testing - or even worse report bugs. 2. split out opensuse-devel where posts without problem analysis are clearly offtopic. 3. split out opensuse-factory-users where there is no limit (basically a suboption of 1) My preference would be 2, it would create the least problems and my hope would be that this list is low traffic enough to auto subscribe everyone doing submitrequests to factory :) Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-09-20 at 20:14 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote: ...
- A list where to announce issues every factory user might hit. This affects broken repositories, broken kernel updates, broken grub. This does _not_ affect broken KDE, broken GNOME, broken applications - those have a better place in opensuse-kde, opensuse-gnome, opensuse-testing
I don't think so. Questions asked in opensuse-gnome go unanswered, we have to ask here (or in opensuse) instead. That list is for developpers only, IMO. ...
My preference would be 2, it would create the least problems and my hope would be that this list is low traffic enough to auto subscribe everyone doing submitrequests to factory :)
Yes. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq2q18ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UdYwCfX7/TcrAFFgUsPT0FW2nkLlnQ GhcAn0MciLR8GurHdlgI1UmTszdfo4ZJ =vNdr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Sunday, 2009-09-20 at 20:14 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:
...
- A list where to announce issues every factory user might hit. This affects broken repositories, broken kernel updates, broken grub. This does _not_ affect broken KDE, broken GNOME, broken applications - those have a better place in opensuse-kde, opensuse-gnome, opensuse-testing
I don't think so. Questions asked in opensuse-gnome go unanswered, we have to ask here (or in opensuse) instead. That list is for developpers only, IMO. opensuse-kde works well at least, maybe the powers that be can stimulate
On 09/21/2009 12:23 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote: the developers on the gnome list.
...
My preference would be 2, it would create the least problems and my hope would be that this list is low traffic enough to auto subscribe everyone doing submitrequests to factory :)
Yes.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
opensuse-devel sounds good. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 20 September 2009 13:14:36 Stephan Kulow wrote:
During the conference and also before in communication to developers I very often heard the argument that they don't read opensuse-factory because it's so high traffic.
Some 20-30 postings a day about things that developers should know about is a high traffic? Even main opensuse ML is not more very high traffic. It is a jiffy to go trough messages and mark threads as ignored. Currently I have only few messages to read in all lists I'm subscribed to. The only improvement would be to provide templates for factory and other ML as well, if appropriate, as reminders for users what is the topic and what information any reader of the list will need to see. I'll try to create sample in KMail, as filters can move messages to separate folder for each ML and each folder can be equipped with custom template for a new message. That on the other hand can help parsing list for a relevant messages. Give that as rule explained on the openSUSE wiki, and one can even automate moderation.
Greetings, Stephan
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 05:43:54PM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 20 September 2009 13:14:36 Stephan Kulow wrote:
During the conference and also before in communication to developers I very often heard the argument that they don't read opensuse-factory because it's so high traffic.
Some 20-30 postings a day about things that developers should know about is a high traffic? Even main opensuse ML is not more very high traffic. It is a jiffy to go trough messages and mark threads as ignored. Currently I have only few messages to read in all lists I'm subscribed to.
I agree. What will happen when we split the list in others is that instead of one list not being read by the developers, three are not read by the developers. There are already so many mailing lists for openSUSE that it becomes hard to select which one. Ignoring a subject is very easily done. And with the amount of differnt mailinglists, you force people to subscribe to many of them anyway. As a user it is anoying that if you go somewhere people tell you all the time: you should go the KDE list and there they say: that is packaging and then they say: Factory. I am also amazed by the fact that some developers do not read any of the openSUSE mailinglist at all and at the same time complain that there is no feedback from users. houghi -- We all came out to Montreux Frank Zappa and the Mothers On the Lake Geneva shoreline Were at the best place around To make records with a mobile But some stupid with a flare gun We didn't have much time Burned the place to the ground -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Kulow napsal(a):
Hi,
During the conference and also before in communication to developers I very often heard the argument that they don't read opensuse-factory because it's so high traffic.
I'm a developer and I more or less read opensuse-factory and even opensuse (although that one I only read filtered), so I don't really buy that excuse. If I maintain $package, then setting up a filter for $package and maybe a few other keywords related to $package takes little time and already gives me good data. Skimming through the list of threads on opensuse-factory once a day helps catch some of the threads that went unnoticed and that's it (folks who send mails with "Subject: a few problems with the latest milestone" cannot be helped anyway :-P).
I see three options: 1. make opensuse-factory moderated for a while and make people that abuse opensuse-factory not to subscribe to -kde, -gnome or -testing - or even worse report bugs. 2. split out opensuse-devel where posts without problem analysis are clearly offtopic. 3. split out opensuse-factory-users where there is no limit (basically a suboption of 1)
My preference would be 2, it would create the least problems and my hope would be that this list is low traffic enough to auto subscribe everyone doing submitrequests to factory :)
My fear is that a opensuse-devel would be often hijacked by irrelevant threads as it is happening now with factory (e.g. people posting here when there even is a bug open and the assignee is asking for logfiles from anyone who can reproduce it...). But if there is a real chance that more developers subscribe to the new list, then let's go for it, I'll just subscribe one more list. just my $0.02 Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 09/21/2009 02:40 PM, Michal Marek wrote:
Stephan Kulow napsal(a):
Hi,
During the conference and also before in communication to developers I very often heard the argument that they don't read opensuse-factory because it's so high traffic.
I'm a developer and I more or less read opensuse-factory and even opensuse (although that one I only read filtered), so I don't really buy that excuse. If I maintain $package, then setting up a filter for $package and maybe a few other keywords related to $package takes little time and already gives me good data. Skimming through the list of threads on opensuse-factory once a day helps catch some of the threads that went unnoticed and that's it (folks who send mails with "Subject: a few problems with the latest milestone" cannot be helped anyway :-P).
I see three options: 1. make opensuse-factory moderated for a while and make people that abuse opensuse-factory not to subscribe to -kde, -gnome or -testing - or even worse report bugs. 2. split out opensuse-devel where posts without problem analysis are clearly offtopic. 3. split out opensuse-factory-users where there is no limit (basically a suboption of 1)
My preference would be 2, it would create the least problems and my hope would be that this list is low traffic enough to auto subscribe everyone doing submitrequests to factory :)
My fear is that a opensuse-devel would be often hijacked by irrelevant threads as it is happening now with factory (e.g. people posting here when there even is a bug open and the assignee is asking for logfiles from anyone who can reproduce it...). But if there is a real chance that more developers subscribe to the new list, then let's go for it, I'll just subscribe one more list.
just my $0.02 Michal
There's a lot of traffic on factory that could better be handled by opensuse-kde which seems to me to be a very efficient list, maybe there's some way of politely diverting some of the factory traffic. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-09-21 at 14:40 +0200, Michal Marek wrote: ...
My preference would be 2, it would create the least problems and my hope would be that this list is low traffic enough to auto subscribe everyone doing submitrequests to factory :)
My fear is that a opensuse-devel would be often hijacked by irrelevant threads as it is happening now with factory (e.g. people posting here when there even is a bug open and the assignee is asking for logfiles from anyone who can reproduce it...).
An issue only known to bugzilla will get more attention here. That's what mail lists are for ;-)
But if there is a real chance that more developers subscribe to the new list, then let's go for it, I'll just subscribe one more list.
Developers should feel the obligation to subscribe to user's lists to stay in touch with reality - IMO. As you said, it is easy enough (for a dev! ;-) ) to filter mails related to what the develop/maintain/package. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq6eUwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XDqgCcDEw1hsAl2kZ1XWZLqIw6U0GA 618AoIqAJviOInvDRA/lKEUxQ0wcc1gp =dxl7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
On Monday, 2009-09-21 at 14:40 +0200, Michal Marek wrote:
My fear is that a opensuse-devel would be often hijacked by irrelevant threads as it is happening now with factory (e.g. people posting here when there even is a bug open and the assignee is asking for logfiles from anyone who can reproduce it...).
An issue only known to bugzilla will get more attention here. That's what mail lists are for ;-)
You mean for people who are lazy to search for open bugs and provide the needed information _in the bugzilla entry_? Sure, if there is a potentially dangerous bug it's a good idea to make people aware of it, but "has anyone seen this?"-style posts if there is a bugzilla entry for the problem are IMO off-topic here.
Developers should feel the obligation to subscribe to user's lists to stay in touch with reality - IMO. As you said, it is easy enough (for a dev! ;-) ) to filter mails related to what the develop/maintain/package.
It's easy to catch good subjects. But it ain't easy to fix unreproducible bugs if one has to chase for the information on various mailing lists. Note that I _am_ subscribed to user lists, but I think that bugzilla should be the primary place to handle bugs. Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 12:12:04PM +0200, Michal Marek wrote:
You mean for people who are lazy to search for open bugs and provide the needed information _in the bugzilla entry_? Sure, if there is a potentially dangerous bug it's a good idea to make people aware of it, but "has anyone seen this?"-style posts if there is a bugzilla entry for the problem are IMO off-topic here.
I would say that would be OT anywhere, so not a good reason to split the list. houghi -- First we thought the PC was a calculator. Then we found out how to turn numbers into letters with ASCII and we thought it was a typewriter. Then we discovered graphics, and we thought it was television. With the World Wide Web, we've realized it's a brochure. -- Douglas Adams. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Torsdag den 24. september 2009 13:32:27 skrev houghi:
On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 12:12:04PM +0200, Michal Marek wrote:
You mean for people who are lazy to search for open bugs and provide the needed information _in the bugzilla entry_? Sure, if there is a potentially dangerous bug it's a good idea to make people aware of it, but "has anyone seen this?"-style posts if there is a bugzilla entry for the problem are IMO off-topic here.
I would say that would be OT anywhere, so not a good reason to split the list.
We want many people to use Factory, and there's clearly a need for somewhere to ask basic support type questions and discuss certain issues about Factory. I say either: 1) create opensuse-devel as the devel list 2) or create opensuse-factory-support / opensuse-factory-users And then start striking down with furious vengeance if off-topic stuff keeps hitting the main list. My only fear is that people will keep posting rants and off-topic noise to whichever list the most developers are known to read, even if a more suitable list exists :-( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Op 24-09-09 15:35, Martin Schlander schreef:
Torsdag den 24. september 2009 13:32:27 skrev houghi:
On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 12:12:04PM +0200, Michal Marek wrote:
You mean for people who are lazy to search for open bugs and provide the needed information _in the bugzilla entry_? Sure, if there is a potentially dangerous bug it's a good idea to make people aware of it, but "has anyone seen this?"-style posts if there is a bugzilla entry for the problem are IMO off-topic here.
I would say that would be OT anywhere, so not a good reason to split the list.
We want many people to use Factory, and there's clearly a need for somewhere to ask basic support type questions and discuss certain issues about Factory.
I say either: 1) create opensuse-devel as the devel list 2) or create opensuse-factory-support / opensuse-factory-users
And then start striking down with furious vengeance if off-topic stuff keeps hitting the main list.
My only fear is that people will keep posting rants and off-topic noise to whichever list the most developers are known to read, even if a more suitable list exists :-(
I am just an A&B tester. And not even organized in the 'Testers Group', but, I agree to this. Every version many things change. Allmost impossible to keep track on every change, unless you can spend all your time on oS-Fac. Sometimes one does not know if something is a feature or bug. Asking in the list might give a more clear direction of what path to follow. About the fear: fear not, it doesn't help in any case. Ignoring works, and well, offtopic issues could be addressed in time no? -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.31-8-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-SFN1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 7 (x86_64) KDE: 4.3.1 (KDE 4.3.1) "release 2" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-09-24 at 12:12 +0200, Michal Marek wrote:
Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
On Monday, 2009-09-21 at 14:40 +0200, Michal Marek wrote:
My fear is that a opensuse-devel would be often hijacked by irrelevant threads as it is happening now with factory (e.g. people posting here when there even is a bug open and the assignee is asking for logfiles from anyone who can reproduce it...).
An issue only known to bugzilla will get more attention here. That's what mail lists are for ;-)
You mean for people who are lazy to search for open bugs and provide the needed information _in the bugzilla entry_? Sure, if there is a potentially dangerous bug it's a good idea to make people aware of it, but "has anyone seen this?"-style posts if there is a bugzilla entry for the problem are IMO off-topic here.
IMO, they are ON topic. If somebody has a problem, it is normal to write here and ask for help (perhaps after looking in bugzilla and not finding anything useful). Then somebody, hopefully, will mention that there is a bug number already on that. And even if they don't search bugzilla, that is not necesarily lazyness. Me, I search, I find nothing often, because there is not a search engine powerfull enough to search for problems in loose human language.
Developers should feel the obligation to subscribe to user's lists to stay in touch with reality - IMO. As you said, it is easy enough (for a dev! ;-) ) to filter mails related to what the develop/maintain/package.
It's easy to catch good subjects. But it ain't easy to fix unreproducible bugs if one has to chase for the information on various mailing lists. Note that I _am_ subscribed to user lists, but I think that bugzilla should be the primary place to handle bugs.
Yes, but users will use mail lists and forum primarily, not bugzilla, and that's not going to change. That's not saying that devs should chase info on this mail list about a particular bug: that's something we reporters can do (like I just did with the reiser-grub problem). But devs should be listening to what users say about their "things", because they may, for instance, notice things told that otherwise they would never learn about, and because only them can explain obscure things (for users) that only them know about. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq7xzgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9USRwCeMIlKTrFEqFa9xKBrEBFGF2xU 4JYAnRifirb7Bo0hLgo0d6cdF1ngBl1k =Xz1d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2009-09-24 at 12:12 +0200, Michal Marek wrote:
It's easy to catch good subjects. But it ain't easy to fix unreproducible bugs if one has to chase for the information on various mailing lists. Note that I _am_ subscribed to user lists, but I think that bugzilla should be the primary place to handle bugs.
True, Although if i come across something unexpected, i don't declare it an bug straight away. If module/driver/program xyz doesn't behave as i expect it to behave, it could be that either my expectations were wrong or i'v done something wrong. (PEBKAC) Even if behaviour is "different" from a previous version, it still doesn't have to be a bug. It could be that the coder/builder is following rules more strictly than before. In either of those cases it is imho better that this is mentioned on the list before issuing an entry in bugzilla. It could be a case of rtfm, or wtfm** ;-) Hans **either manual, howto or wiki -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Plater -
Hans Witvliet -
houghi -
Martin Schlander -
Michal Marek -
Oddball -
Rajko M. -
Stephan Kulow