[opensuse-factory] Space constraints on the DVD
Dear geekos, Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things). I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy. One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey We do have MozillaFirebird and Thunderbird on the disk. Of course there is NO topic AT ALL to remove this from the repositories! Just from the DVDs. How would everybody feel if this were to be removed from the main DVDs and only be available from the online repositories? Do you have any other great suggestions on what we could spare on the DVD, getting some more air to breath (the limit is hard - no need to negotiate the size of the DVD) Cheers, Dominique -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 11:01 AM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
We do have MozillaFirebird and Thunderbird on the disk. Of course there is NO topic AT ALL to remove this from the repositories! Just from the DVDs.
How would everybody feel if this were to be removed from the main DVDs and only be available from the online repositories?
Do you have any other great suggestions on what we could spare on the DVD, getting some more air to breath (the limit is hard - no need to negotiate the size of the DVD)
Cheers, Dominique
Why are we even considering this? DVD's and DVD drives will soon (a few years) go the way of the dodo bird. I cannot remember the last time I actually used a DVD as I now always copy the install image to a thumb drive because the install goes much faster. -- Ken Schneider -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 11:48 -0500, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
Why are we even considering this? DVD's and DVD drives will soon (a few years) go the way of the dodo bird. I cannot remember the last time I actually used a DVD as I now always copy the install image to a thumb drive because the install goes much faster.
So, I take it YOU do not care for the content of the DVD; so I count you as +1 for any kind of drop request from now on... Thanks. Other than that: to our luck, we do have a couple more users :) and SOME of them seem to be caring for the DVD (or the download counters would probably be lower). Let's please try to not extrapolate from 'own' usage on everybody else out there (we can't satisfy EVERYBODY.. but we try to reach more than one user.. I would certainly know how to gain A LOT of space on the DVD otherwise) Cheers, -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25.11.2014 17:54, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 11:48 -0500, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
Why are we even considering this? DVD's and DVD drives will soon (a few years) go the way of the dodo bird. I cannot remember the last time I actually used a DVD as I now always copy the install image to a thumb drive because the install goes much faster.
So, I take it YOU do not care for the content of the DVD; so I count you as +1 for any kind of drop request from now on... Thanks.
What about starting with the DVD use case? What is the DVD good for, for who? How is it used? This will define what should be on the DVD media and what is just nice to have. Then we could put packages into at least two categories 1. Must have ~ cannot be removed 2. Nice to have ~ openSUSE users could vote for them and/or we could decide using some facts, such as usage statistics (we have them, don't we?) Thanks Lukas -- Lukas Ocilka, Systems Management (Yast) Team Leader Cloud & Systems Management Department, SUSE Linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 18:02 +0100, Lukas Ocilka wrote:
On 25.11.2014 17:54, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 11:48 -0500, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
Why are we even considering this? DVD's and DVD drives will soon (a few years) go the way of the dodo bird. I cannot remember the last time I actually used a DVD as I now always copy the install image to a thumb drive because the install goes much faster.
So, I take it YOU do not care for the content of the DVD; so I count you as +1 for any kind of drop request from now on... Thanks.
What about starting with the DVD use case? What is the DVD good for, for who? How is it used? This will define what should be on the DVD media and what is just nice to have.
Then we could put packages into at least two categories 1. Must have ~ cannot be removed 2. Nice to have ~ openSUSE users could vote for them and/or we could decide using some facts, such as usage statistics (we have them, don't we?)
Fully agree; the usecase is something we will need to find (again) for the DVD; problem is that this discussion is likely to take a bit more time (anybody on this list knows that people tend to talk forever); but we're running low on space now, hence the more direct approach of saving space 'right now' with something I could make out rather quickly (and it is one of the larger packages). I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now. Dominique -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 25.11.2014 um 18:07 schrieb Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 18:02 +0100, Lukas Ocilka wrote: Fully agree; the usecase is something we will need to find (again) for the DVD; problem is that this discussion is likely to take a bit more time (anybody on this list knows that people tend to talk forever); but we're running low on space now, hence the more direct approach of saving space 'right now' with something I could make out rather quickly (and it is one of the larger packages).
I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now.
Dominique
My suggestions (taken from a top N list of packages on the 13.2-DVD sorted by size): - frozen-bubble (a game) - Do we need two java versions on DVD? (1.7 and 1.8) - some fonts - some doc/source packages Hendrik -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 25 November 2014 18:29:47 Hendrik Woltersdorf wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 18:07 schrieb Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 18:02 +0100, Lukas Ocilka wrote: Fully agree; the usecase is something we will need to find (again) for the DVD; problem is that this discussion is likely to take a bit more time (anybody on this list knows that people tend to talk forever); but we're running low on space now, hence the more direct approach of saving space 'right now' with something I could make out rather quickly (and it is one of the larger packages).
I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now.
Dominique
My suggestions (taken from a top N list of packages on the 13.2-DVD sorted by size):
- frozen-bubble (a game)
+1
- Do we need two java versions on DVD? (1.7 and 1.8)
4 of them actually, you're forgetting about GCJ and IKVM :)
- some fonts
I would agree, but that may lead to a fight which ones should be dropped, and is very subjective...
- some doc/source packages
The only source I see on the DVD is kernel, that one should remain. Other than that, there is gimp and digikam docs, they are huge, maybe it is a good idea to drop them?... -- Regards, Stas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 12:29 PM, Hendrik Woltersdorf wrote:
My suggestions (taken from a top N list of packages on the 13.2-DVD sorted by size):
- frozen-bubble (a game)
Of course, we can't lose essentials like bsd-games. "Adventure" is a mission critical app. "You are standing at the end of a road before a small brick building..." ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 25 of November 2014 12:37:18 James Knott wrote:
On 11/25/2014 12:29 PM, Hendrik Woltersdorf wrote:
My suggestions (taken from a top N list of packages on the 13.2-DVD sorted by size):
- frozen-bubble (a game)
Of course, we can't lose essentials like bsd-games. "Adventure" is a mission critical app.
The thing is you would have to drop ~20 packages like bsd-games to save as much space a by dropping frozen-buble. In other words, you would have to take quite a large N for bsd-games to fit into Hendrik's list. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Hendrik Woltersdorf <hendrikw@arcor.de> wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 18:07 schrieb Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 18:02 +0100, Lukas Ocilka wrote: Fully agree; the usecase is something we will need to find (again) for the DVD; problem is that this discussion is likely to take a bit more time (anybody on this list knows that people tend to talk forever); but we're running low on space now, hence the more direct approach of saving space 'right now' with something I could make out rather quickly (and it is one of the larger packages).
I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now.
Dominique
My suggestions (taken from a top N list of packages on the 13.2-DVD sorted by size):
- frozen-bubble (a game) - Do we need two java versions on DVD? (1.7 and 1.8) - some fonts - some doc/source packages
Hendrik
The DVD has 2 major use cases: - To install openSUSE in full without an Internet connection - To be a much less bandwidth intense install than a NET install Hendrik's suggestions would impact users installing to isolated / non-internet connected machines. I think they should all stay. My opinion is anything to do with core networking must critically be on the DVD. Anything to do with Internet application communications is a low priority unless they would be useful on networks permanently air-gapped from the Internet: ie. web-browsers, proxy servers, e-mail clients, Internet related daemons (ftp, apache, sendmail, postfix) would all be things I would consider dropping first. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 06:45 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Hendrik Woltersdorf <hendrikw@arcor.de> wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 18:07 schrieb Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 18:02 +0100, Lukas Ocilka wrote: Fully agree; the usecase is something we will need to find (again) for the DVD; problem is that this discussion is likely to take a bit more time (anybody on this list knows that people tend to talk forever); but we're running low on space now, hence the more direct approach of saving space 'right now' with something I could make out rather quickly (and it is one of the larger packages).
I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now.
Dominique
My suggestions (taken from a top N list of packages on the 13.2-DVD sorted by size):
- frozen-bubble (a game) - Do we need two java versions on DVD? (1.7 and 1.8) - some fonts - some doc/source packages
Hendrik
The DVD has 2 major use cases:
- To install openSUSE in full without an Internet connection
If we want to fulfill this use case without losing any package, what prevents us from preparing two (or even more) DVD images? Jiri
- To be a much less bandwidth intense install than a NET install
Hendrik's suggestions would impact users installing to isolated / non-internet connected machines. I think they should all stay.
My opinion is anything to do with core networking must critically be on the DVD.
Anything to do with Internet application communications is a low priority unless they would be useful on networks permanently air-gapped from the Internet: ie. web-browsers, proxy servers, e-mail clients, Internet related daemons (ftp, apache, sendmail, postfix) would all be things I would consider dropping first.
Greg
-- Regards, Jiri Srain Project Manager --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.com Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 659 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 084 001 Czech Republic http://www.suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 26.11.2014 08:33, Jiri Srain wrote:
On 11/25/2014 06:45 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Hendrik Woltersdorf <hendrikw@arcor.de> wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 18:07 schrieb Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 18:02 +0100, Lukas Ocilka wrote: Fully agree; the usecase is something we will need to find (again) for the DVD; problem is that this discussion is likely to take a bit more time (anybody on this list knows that people tend to talk forever); but we're running low on space now, hence the more direct approach of saving space 'right now' with something I could make out rather quickly (and it is one of the larger packages).
I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now.
Dominique
My suggestions (taken from a top N list of packages on the 13.2-DVD sorted by size):
- frozen-bubble (a game) - Do we need two java versions on DVD? (1.7 and 1.8) - some fonts - some doc/source packages
Hendrik
The DVD has 2 major use cases:
- To install openSUSE in full without an Internet connection
If we want to fulfill this use case without losing any package, what prevents us from preparing two (or even more) DVD images?
Mirror space and testing capacities Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-26 09:52, Stephan Kulow wrote:
If we want to fulfill this use case without losing any package, what prevents us from preparing two (or even more) DVD images?
Mirror space and testing capacities
One of my ideas is generating the extra dvds (or usb stick/hd directory on ext4) locally, pulling directly packages from the repositories using a list. No extra mirror load at all. The extra dvds would be an optional and local repository during installation. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1vi0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X3egCfZTbgB/JLxnw650I18AMqXeOW D7YAn3TJ7xjI8NRiQOwPtXLE5APf2SuK =i3t+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 18:07, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now.
Ok, then :-) Just drop seamonkey from the dvd, it (almost) duplicates firefox+thunderbird. Do you need more drops? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR0wloACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VbcgCfe/lOVC77ZRPyWQUz/3vJR6l6 IKQAn3QRoe5pnyqeYh6LK6LDH41eGzn+ =g6IY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
At Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:07:03 +0100, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 18:02 +0100, Lukas Ocilka wrote:
On 25.11.2014 17:54, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 11:48 -0500, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
Why are we even considering this? DVD's and DVD drives will soon (a few years) go the way of the dodo bird. I cannot remember the last time I actually used a DVD as I now always copy the install image to a thumb drive because the install goes much faster.
So, I take it YOU do not care for the content of the DVD; so I count you as +1 for any kind of drop request from now on... Thanks.
What about starting with the DVD use case? What is the DVD good for, for who? How is it used? This will define what should be on the DVD media and what is just nice to have.
Then we could put packages into at least two categories 1. Must have ~ cannot be removed 2. Nice to have ~ openSUSE users could vote for them and/or we could decide using some facts, such as usage statistics (we have them, don't we?)
I also like the idea.
Fully agree; the usecase is something we will need to find (again) for the DVD; problem is that this discussion is likely to take a bit more time (anybody on this list knows that people tend to talk forever); but we're running low on space now, hence the more direct approach of saving space 'right now' with something I could make out rather quickly (and it is one of the larger packages).
I also liked the idea of another optional DVD medium. We could provide more software instead of less and would fix your problem immediatelly...
I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now.
IMHO translation of documentation could go there... Best regards, S_W -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
for installing OpenSUSE I use the Network installer disk. For full DVD, only put core packages and packages for hardware support all other packages you can download/install from OpenSUSE repositories (mirrors) much easier to maintain/update to .... André -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 22:12 +0100, André Verwijs wrote:
for installing OpenSUSE I use the Network installer disk. For full DVD, only put core packages and packages for hardware support
all other packages you can download/install from OpenSUSE repositories (mirrors) much easier to maintain/update to ....
You extrapolate from your non-existing usecase (you use a Net installer - no need for the DVD) to the rest of the world. The DVD is obviously targeting a different user-group than you make part of. Dominique -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 21:43 +0100, Tomas Cech wrote:
At Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:07:03 +0100, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 18:02 +0100, Lukas Ocilka wrote:
On 25.11.2014 17:54, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 11:48 -0500, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
Why are we even considering this? DVD's and DVD drives will soon (a few years) go the way of the dodo bird. I cannot remember the last time I actually used a DVD as I now always copy the install image to a thumb drive because the install goes much faster.
So, I take it YOU do not care for the content of the DVD; so I count you as +1 for any kind of drop request from now on... Thanks.
What about starting with the DVD use case? What is the DVD good for, for who? How is it used? This will define what should be on the DVD media and what is just nice to have.
Then we could put packages into at least two categories 1. Must have ~ cannot be removed 2. Nice to have ~ openSUSE users could vote for them and/or we could decide using some facts, such as usage statistics (we have them, don't we?)
I also like the idea.
Fully agree; the usecase is something we will need to find (again) for the DVD; problem is that this discussion is likely to take a bit more time (anybody on this list knows that people tend to talk forever); but we're running low on space now, hence the more direct approach of saving space 'right now' with something I could make out rather quickly (and it is one of the larger packages).
I also liked the idea of another optional DVD medium. We could provide more software instead of less and would fix your problem immediatelly...
I'd prefer not to mix meta-discussion about the DVD itself in this thread right now.
IMHO translation of documentation could go there...
Hi all, I think the idea of removing some packages from the DVD is no good. Firstly, what ever you choose, someone will suggest something else. Secondly, the amount you will free, is such limited that you will only postpone the inevitable. You will back at square one in some months time. You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ? It also gives the possibility to include some packages, that have been removed last releases. That way you give the end-users the choice to download the essential bare minimal, or multiple dvd-images. In the bad-old-days, there were recipes to combine multiple CD's into a DVD. It can be revived to group multiple DVD's into a multi-layer (not that much expensive) or a even BR. (Even dual-layer BR's, holding 50GB are not extremely expensive anymore :-) Hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 22:46, Hans Witvliet wrote:
Hi all,
I think the idea of removing some packages from the DVD is no good. Firstly, what ever you choose, someone will suggest something else. Secondly, the amount you will free, is such limited that you will only postpone the inevitable. You will back at square one in some months time.
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
I like the idea.
In the bad-old-days, there were recipes to combine multiple CD's into a DVD. It can be revived to group multiple DVD's into a multi-layer (not that much expensive) or a even BR. (Even dual-layer BR's, holding 50GB are not extremely expensive anymore :-)
Or into a single USB stick. Interesting. An alternative would be a single DVD image, "burned" into a usb stick, but in a manner that we could add somehow extra rpms that we like to the same stick, downloaded locally from the repos, and somehow modify the installation image so that it finds and use them. Perhaps via "add local repo". This method would not add any extra load on the mirrors. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1BjwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WAFwCfd+eAauhX6YTOOSlLwFeHKoDo l0IAoJBhmLv7FJkc9zxyEZDwNmp9pi4C =7CPY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 05:44 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-11-25 22:46, Hans Witvliet wrote:
Hi all,
I think the idea of removing some packages from the DVD is no good. Firstly, what ever you choose, someone will suggest something else. Secondly, the amount you will free, is such limited that you will only postpone the inevitable. You will back at square one in some months time.
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
I like the idea.
In the bad-old-days, there were recipes to combine multiple CD's into a DVD. It can be revived to group multiple DVD's into a multi-layer (not that much expensive) or a even BR. (Even dual-layer BR's, holding 50GB are not extremely expensive anymore :-)
Or into a single USB stick. Interesting.
An alternative would be a single DVD image, "burned" into a usb stick, but in a manner that we could add somehow extra rpms that we like to the same stick, downloaded locally from the repos, and somehow modify the installation image so that it finds and use them. Perhaps via "add local repo".
This method would not add any extra load on the mirrors.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAlR1BjwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WAFwCfd+eAauhX6YTOOSlLwFeHKoDo l0IAoJBhmLv7FJkc9zxyEZDwNmp9pi4C =7CPY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Great idea! -- Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 23:50, Roman Bysh wrote:
On 11/25/2014 05:44 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
An alternative would be a single DVD image, "burned" into a usb stick, but in a manner that we could add somehow extra rpms that we like to the same stick, downloaded locally from the repos, and somehow modify the installation image so that it finds and use them. Perhaps via "add local repo".
This method would not add any extra load on the mirrors.
Great idea!
Thanks :-) It can be improved. For instance, instead of manually generating a list of packages, it could take the list of packages currently installed in your system, and download them for the version corresponding to the dvd, each package from the correct repo and vendor. Say, this thing from oss, this from packman, this from kde-extra, this from nvidia... create a tree of directories that constitute repos to be added during install, plus a pattern or something that you can tell the installer to add, so that it add the corresponding list of files to the default choices. And put all that into the install usb stick with the dvd image. Something like that. If that could be expanded into a yast module that facilitates updates on machines without internet, that would be really wonderful. I must be dreaming O:-) For the moment, though, we have to just remove some packages, and then design the future with more time. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1C7AACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VQxQCfSunM9y4vAsVmH2d38IC8e9ri USUAnRMV+HFFTIiBCsfJZMuQ2C2xQZA3 =vDqM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 26 November 2014 00:07:30 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-11-25 23:50, Roman Bysh wrote:
On 11/25/2014 05:44 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
An alternative would be a single DVD image, "burned" into a usb stick, but in a manner that we could add somehow extra rpms that we like to the same stick, downloaded locally from the repos, and somehow modify the installation image so that it finds and use them. Perhaps via "add local repo".
This method would not add any extra load on the mirrors.
Great idea!
Thanks :-)
It can be improved. For instance, instead of manually generating a list of packages, it could take the list of packages currently installed in your system, and download them for the version corresponding to the dvd, each package from the correct repo and vendor. Say, this thing from oss, this from packman, this from kde-extra, this from nvidia... create a tree of directories that constitute repos to be added during install, plus a pattern or something that you can tell the installer to add, so that it add the corresponding list of files to the default choices. And put all that into the install usb stick with the dvd image.
Something like that.
If that could be expanded into a yast module that facilitates updates on machines without internet, that would be really wonderful.
I must be dreaming O:-)
For the moment, though, we have to just remove some packages, and then design the future with more time.
I like the idea, but that reminded me one thing... I was not able to create full clone of install DVD but with customized software selection using susestudio. It would be extremely helpful to have it as pattern there, so in half a year or so it would be possible to create install image that, for example, will have following features: * cut to fit 4GB usb flash; * updated KDE5 from KDE:Frameworks5 repository; * include software that I will install any way which is not included onto current DVD; * do not include software that I will have to uncheck every time, or that I will forget to uncheck and will have to uninstall manually; -- Regards, Stas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> [11-25-14 18:08]: [...]
It can be improved. For instance, instead of manually generating a list of packages, it could take the list of packages currently installed in your system, and download them for the version corresponding to the dvd, each package from the correct repo and vendor. Say, this thing from oss, this from packman, this from kde-extra, this from nvidia... create a tree of directories that constitute repos to be added during install, plus a pattern or something that you can tell the installer to add, so that it add the corresponding list of files to the default choices. And put all that into the install usb stick with the dvd image.
Something like that.
If that could be expanded into a yast module that facilitates updates on machines without internet, that would be really wonderful.
I must be dreaming O:-)
I doubt this legal, at least in the US as I understand openSUSE cannot include packages from Packman.... or even redirect to Packman. But I do see that they advise methods to add Packman's repos. Most of the additionally required multimedia packages are obtained via opensuse-community.org. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-26 00:29, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [11-25-14 18:08]:
I doubt this legal, at least in the US as I understand openSUSE cannot include packages from Packman.... or even redirect to Packman.
And there is no need, as this is done on your computer. It is your computer which generates a list of packages to download, from anywhere needed, and downloads them, to your computer. Nothing at opensuse servers generate or servers anything "doubtful"; just a software that looks at your computer, and runs in your computer. Legality is protected. :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1IZIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XRZACfWUSUuMG24iPHF5Vl6Tm8q2nu HDQAniUKcQ/mUu0HeMBY5eMDAb55xxvA =2eSZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 25.11.2014 um 22:46 schrieb Hans Witvliet:
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
It's so pointless. The point of the DVD is to have a compromise between those that have fast network and prefer network installations and those that have slow internet and prefer small downloads, but still want software. So you have to pick - telling the ones with slow network just to download 3 DVDs is not going to work. I'm fine with redefining the 2 addon CDs as one addon DVD and put e.g. texlive back on a medium. That doesn't solve the pure problem - we need to pick what's on the installation DVD. Greetings, Stephan -- Ma muaß weiterkämpfen, kämpfen bis zum Umfalln, a wenn die ganze Welt an Arsch offen hat, oder grad deswegn. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/26/2014, 07:37 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 22:46 schrieb Hans Witvliet:
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
It's so pointless. The point of the DVD is to have a compromise between those that have fast network and prefer network installations and those that have slow internet and prefer small downloads, but still want software.
That does not sound right at all. Why would anyone on the slow network bother to download a full DVD and install only a part of it? It makes sense for them to download a NET image and let the installer download *only* the needed/wanted packages from the repositories. For me, DVDs always make sense when downloaded elsewhere. On places with fast network like universities. Then burn it (or provide it via pxe), bring home and install w/o downloading anything. That said, more DVDs make perfect sense, IMO. -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 26.11.2014 12:53, Jiri Slaby wrote:
On 11/26/2014, 07:37 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 22:46 schrieb Hans Witvliet:
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
It's so pointless. The point of the DVD is to have a compromise between those that have fast network and prefer network installations and those that have slow internet and prefer small downloads, but still want software.
That does not sound right at all. Why would anyone on the slow network bother to download a full DVD and install only a part of it? It makes sense for them to download a NET image and let the installer download *only* the needed/wanted packages from the repositories.
For me, DVDs always make sense when downloaded elsewhere. On places with fast network like universities. Then burn it (or provide it via pxe), bring home and install w/o downloading anything.
Why would you download it elsewhere if not because you have slow internet? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/26/2014 12:55 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 26.11.2014 12:53, Jiri Slaby wrote:
On 11/26/2014, 07:37 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 22:46 schrieb Hans Witvliet:
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
It's so pointless. The point of the DVD is to have a compromise between those that have fast network and prefer network installations and those that have slow internet and prefer small downloads, but still want software.
That does not sound right at all. Why would anyone on the slow network bother to download a full DVD and install only a part of it? It makes sense for them to download a NET image and let the installer download *only* the needed/wanted packages from the repositories.
For me, DVDs always make sense when downloaded elsewhere. On places with fast network like universities. Then burn it (or provide it via pxe), bring home and install w/o downloading anything.
Why would you download it elsewhere if not because you have slow internet?
Download & burn at university, install at home :-) Actually, flaky home internet connection was the main reason why I bought my first SUSE Linux box... Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain Project Manager --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.com Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 659 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 084 001 Czech Republic http://www.suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 12:59 +0100, Jiri Srain wrote:
On 11/26/2014 12:55 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 26.11.2014 12:53, Jiri Slaby wrote:
On 11/26/2014, 07:37 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 22:46 schrieb Hans Witvliet:
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
It's so pointless. The point of the DVD is to have a compromise between those that have fast network and prefer network installations and those that have slow internet and prefer small downloads, but still want software.
That does not sound right at all. Why would anyone on the slow network bother to download a full DVD and install only a part of it? It makes sense for them to download a NET image and let the installer download *only* the needed/wanted packages from the repositories.
For me, DVDs always make sense when downloaded elsewhere. On places with fast network like universities. Then burn it (or provide it via pxe), bring home and install w/o downloading anything.
Why would you download it elsewhere if not because you have slow internet?
Download & burn at university, install at home :-)
Actually, flaky home internet connection was the main reason why I bought my first SUSE Linux box...
A college of mine was at work in Africa. They downloaded an iso-image once, and copied it many times. So flaky Internet connections is absolutely not a thing of the past. Many people here are spoiled with dsl/cable/fiber, but you can not assume that's the case for the rest of the world... Hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-26 12:55, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Why would you download it elsewhere if not because you have slow internet?
Download elsewhere is done when the internet is extremely slow (POTS modem), or limited (capped), like a mobile phone connection. Not simply because internet is slow. With a slow internet you can let the download run for hours or days, interrupt, restart... no BIG problem. Just a nuisance. With a capped internet you can do nothing. Either download elsewhere, or install from NET image. Perhaps. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1xOEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XDGgCbBM+UGTCgchrKUouXAuvGSp0C 2xYAn1+VXEjKXKiU53lHSnpjhr4oh6Nt =9knA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 2014-11-26 12:53, Jiri Slaby wrote:
On 11/26/2014, 07:37 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 22:46 schrieb Hans Witvliet:
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
It's so pointless. The point of the DVD is to have a compromise between those that have fast network and prefer network installations and those that have slow internet and prefer small downloads, but still want software.
That does not sound right at all. Why would anyone on the slow network bother to download a full DVD and install only a part of it?
Well, if you have a lot of machines perhaps, when it makes sense to use a caching proxy - or just throw the DVD at it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/26/2014, 12:59 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Wednesday 2014-11-26 12:53, Jiri Slaby wrote:
On 11/26/2014, 07:37 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 22:46 schrieb Hans Witvliet:
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
It's so pointless. The point of the DVD is to have a compromise between those that have fast network and prefer network installations and those that have slow internet and prefer small downloads, but still want software.
That does not sound right at all. Why would anyone on the slow network bother to download a full DVD and install only a part of it?
Well, if you have a lot of machines perhaps,
I would create my own image using studio then, because it's the exact use case and the generic DVD won't fit anyway.
when it makes sense to use a caching proxy - or just throw the DVD at it.
Which I don't think is the common scenario. In any case 2 or more DVDs would make sense there too. Even more. regards, -- js suse labs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-26 12:53, Jiri Slaby wrote:
That does not sound right at all. Why would anyone on the slow network bother to download a full DVD and install only a part of it? It makes sense for them to download a NET image and let the installer download *only* the needed/wanted packages from the repositories.
That makes sense on a limited download cap internet connection, not on a bandwidth limited internet connection (ie, a slow connection). On a slow connection, installing from the net image can take a full day or more, and crash with network hiccups. It is preferable to slowly donwload the dvd while you keep working or sleeping.
For me, DVDs always make sense when downloaded elsewhere. On places with fast network like universities. Then burn it (or provide it via pxe), bring home and install w/o downloading anything.
No, I have a slow internet, which is WHY I download them instead of installing NET. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1w+cACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X4LwCfWsZ0j8TbfBVJUjIbyC6qfd71 XRsAnjrkcLJ000f5eOE/PDKHsVpoofEm =QpkW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-26 07:37, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 25.11.2014 um 22:46 schrieb Hans Witvliet:
You will have to divide packages up into several catagories, so you can spread them over two (or even more) dvd's (desktop / server ?) What is so bad about multiple DVD's ?
It's so pointless. The point of the DVD is to have a compromise between those that have fast network and prefer network installations and those that have slow internet and prefer small downloads, but still want software. So you have to pick - telling the ones with slow network just to download 3 DVDs is not going to work. I'm fine with redefining the 2 addon CDs as one addon DVD and put e.g. texlive back on a medium. That doesn't solve the pure problem - we need to pick what's on the installation DVD.
Actually, it would work. I have a slow internet, so that downloading the dvd (with other jobs running) takes two or three days. To me it is an advantage to download everything in advance, two dvds, perhaps three, as compared to having to use online repos during the installation. The critical phase is installation or upgrade, with no internet. That has to go fast. The dvd can take ages to download, no big problem. And my idea is that only the first dvd be mandatory, the rest are optional, like repos. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1wxoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VkrwCgixReixTN0obtikZLgFmegdYv b4kAn0H3UO/2PC+GxfXBL1WE4SIiTZxw =bwDQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/26/2014 01:37 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
telling the ones with slow network just to download 3 DVDs is not going to work.
When I first started downloading and burning Linux CDs, I did it at work, where we had a good (45 Mb IIRC) Internet connection and a computer with a CD burner. At home, I didn't have a burner and was still on dial up modem. I bet there are still those who still do similar to get a DVD of openSuSE. BTW, the first time I installed Slackware, I had to download a bunch of floppy images, copy them to floppies and install from them. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 18:02, Lukas Ocilka wrote:
What about starting with the DVD use case? What is the DVD good for, for who? How is it used? This will define what should be on the DVD media and what is just nice to have.
I would like a much larger install image, like a double layer dvd, because upgrades are easier. But... But then I think that the 4.7 GB DVD should remain available, because some times you really need a DVD (typically because you have some older machines that don't boot from a usb stick, like I do), and considering that double layer dvds are too expensive for casual burn. So the normal size DVD must remain available, and the 9 gigs idea goes to the dustbin - unless you wish to generate both, which I doubt. :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR0uU0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W1bACfV9QO+1xyEiAwvbAKedyLd/AB CGEAnRbHEt34FUFQ32zGmjGiz3ceLCuK =Y55q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 09:15 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-11-25 18:02, Lukas Ocilka wrote:
What about starting with the DVD use case? What is the DVD good for, for who? How is it used? This will define what should be on the DVD media and what is just nice to have. I would like a much larger install image, like a double layer dvd, because upgrades are easier. But...
But then I think that the 4.7 GB DVD should remain available, because some times you really need a DVD (typically because you have some older machines that don't boot from a usb stick, like I do), and considering that double layer dvds are too expensive for casual burn.
So the normal size DVD must remain available, and the 9 gigs idea goes to the dustbin - unless you wish to generate both, which I doubt.
:-)
For my two-cents, many organizations forbid using USB memory sticks for security reasons. Yes, this is a MS Windows-centric rule, but it is what it is. There are also many install scenarios where network access isn't available. So a complete DVD is very important indeed. But would using multiple 4.7-GB DVDs be a long-term option? I recall, and may still have laying about somewhere, SuSE installs that came on a half-dozen CDs. All that being said, no one I know would miss seamonkey. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 25 of November 2014 09:36:38 Lew Wolfgang wrote:
For my two-cents, many organizations forbid using USB memory sticks for security reasons.
Makes one wonder what exactly is the evil thing one can do with a USB flash disk that can't be done with a (self-burned) DVD... (Except infecting a machine without DVD drive, of course.) But yes, I understand that making sense is not a requirement for rules of this type.
But would using multiple 4.7-GB DVDs be a long-term option? I recall, and may still have laying about somewhere, SuSE installs that came on a half-dozen CDs.
I don't think we have to care about long-term. The content we are putting into the image now will be interesting for 1-2 years, not more. We used CD's whe CD drives were ubiquitous and DVD drives were rare. Now CD images are out of question (except for booting network installation), DVD drives are (relatively) ubiquitous and BD drives much less so. In a few years, the situation may be different and so will be our choice. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 08:09 +0100, Michal Kubecek wrote:
Makes one wonder what exactly is the evil thing one can do with a USB flash disk that can't be done with a (self-burned) DVD... (Except
Provided your storage device is only a storage device. Regards Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/26/2014 08:09 AM, Michal Kubecek wrote:
On Tuesday 25 of November 2014 09:36:38 Lew Wolfgang wrote:
For my two-cents, many organizations forbid using USB memory sticks for security reasons.
Makes one wonder what exactly is the evil thing one can do with a USB flash disk that can't be done with a (self-burned) DVD... (Except infecting a machine without DVD drive, of course.) But yes, I understand that making sense is not a requirement for rules of this type.
I don't think it's a measure to protect the system from the evilness of the users, but from their ignorance. DVDs are (almost) read only, so they don't get infected as easily as flash disks. Most Windows users have evil autorun.inf files in their flash disks and they don't even know. Cheers. -- Ancor González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:30 AM, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa <ancor@suse.de> wrote:
On 11/26/2014 08:09 AM, Michal Kubecek wrote:
On Tuesday 25 of November 2014 09:36:38 Lew Wolfgang wrote:
For my two-cents, many organizations forbid using USB memory sticks for security reasons.
Makes one wonder what exactly is the evil thing one can do with a USB flash disk that can't be done with a (self-burned) DVD... (Except infecting a machine without DVD drive, of course.) But yes, I understand that making sense is not a requirement for rules of this type.
I don't think it's a measure to protect the system from the evilness of the users, but from their ignorance. DVDs are (almost) read only, so they don't get infected as easily as flash disks. Most Windows users have evil autorun.inf files in their flash disks and they don't even know.
I can assure you it is both - an effort to eliminate IP theft by users copying files to a thumbdrive. - an effort to eliminate malware imported from thumbdrives inadvertently. Why a specific company has the rule could be either of the above or a combination of both. As a stronger example of the malware concern: I am aware of one company that has their field engineers carry 2 laptop hard drives with them. One is used while working on scada equipment in the field. The other is used for typical business activity (e-mail, web browsing, etc.) I know of other companies that don't allow anything on the laptops except remote termimal apps. All business work is done via terminal servers on corporate servers. I work primarily in the field of IP theft (both via rogue employees and via external parties hacking into a network) so I am exposed to both negative aspects of USB thumb drives. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 2014-11-25 17:01, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
We do have MozillaFirebird and Thunderbird on the disk.
Do you have any other great suggestions on what we could spare on the DVD, getting some more air to breath (the limit is hard - no need to negotiate the size of the DVD)
Drop firefox and thunderbird in favor of seamonkey. After all, with FF and TB, you are paying for the runtime almost twice - and for RAM too :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 12:25 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
Drop firefox and thunderbird in favor of seamonkey. After all, with FF and TB, you are paying for the runtime almost twice - and for RAM too :)
I also prefer Seamonkey. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 18:25, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
Drop firefox and thunderbird in favor of seamonkey. After all, with FF and TB, you are paying for the runtime almost twice - and for RAM too :)
That's an interesting point. 34567K Oct 22 00:00 MozillaFirefox 33.0-2.1.x86_64.rpm 47006 Sep 25 00:00 MozillaFirefox-branding-openSUSE-21-4.1.2.x86_64.rpm 8814738 Oct 22 00:00 MozillaFirefox-translations-common-33.0-2.1.x86_64.rpm 27298K Oct 16 00:00 MozillaThunderbird-31.2.0-1.1.x86_64.rpm 9900K Oct 16 00:00 MozillaThunderbird-translations-common-31.2.0-1.1.x86_64.rpm 82,348,847 bytes in 5 files 31238K Oct 15 00:00 seamonkey-2.29-1.8.x86_64.rpm 290701 Oct 15 00:00 seamonkey-dom-inspector-2.29-1.8.x86_64.rpm 417451 Oct 15 00:00 seamonkey-irc-2.29-1.8.x86_64.rpm 10759K Oct 15 00:00 seamonkey-translations-common-2.29-1.8.x86_64.rpm 277407 Oct 15 00:00 seamonkey-venkman-2.29-1.8.x86_64.rpm 43,991,133 bytes in 5 files However, there are probably more people using Mozilla* than seamonkey* :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1wtsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XN6ACgjl/7VQI0bDzXKnac1GsG+msy nJoAn0UKYnSrKc8xPqAtzJd7r9XYtOIA =lti7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 2014-11-26 13:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Drop firefox and thunderbird in favor of seamonkey. After all, with FF and TB, you are paying for the runtime almost twice - and for RAM too :)
That's an interesting point.
34567K Oct 22 00:00 MozillaFirefox 33.0-2.1.x86_64.rpm 82,348,847 bytes in 5 files 31238K Oct 15 00:00 seamonkey-2.29-1.8.x86_64.rpm 43,991,133 bytes in 5 files
However, there are probably more people using Mozilla* than seamonkey* :-)
But does it matter? It's still the Gecko renderer, same JS engine, the extensions still work. Just the browser UI is still like NS4 times, which is very much like FF28. The UI abomination in FF29 they did not yet include :) So, I would not expect a lot of problems.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 25 November 2014 17:01:10 Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
We do have MozillaFirebird and Thunderbird on the disk. Of course there is NO topic AT ALL to remove this from the repositories! Just from the DVDs.
How would everybody feel if this were to be removed from the main DVDs and only be available from the online repositories?
Do you have any other great suggestions on what we could spare on the DVD, getting some more air to breath (the limit is hard - no need to negotiate the size of the DVD)
I was wondering how you manage to fit all of that into single DVD, and I have to uncheck a lot of checkboxes during the install usually... In my opinion, you can drop without thinking twice: * seamonkey * marble (would be really interesting to see how big is the target audience for this one). * wine-gecko (on my system wine downloads it every time any way for some reason). * one of two provided javas since only one of them will be chosen as default. * GCJ, as java developer I do not know single app that can be compiled or can use it. * IKVM is another java implementation that is hardly used ever, probably should not be present on the DVD at all. -- Regards, Stas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/14 18:28, Stanislav Baiduzhyi wrote:
* GCJ, as java developer I do not know single app that can be compiled or can use it. * IKVM is another java implementation that is hardly used ever, probably should not be present on the DVD at all.
Very good points, +1 to them. Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Il 25/11/2014 17:01, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger ha scritto:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy. I don't download dvd since ages. Is there a list of packages (online) ?
Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi. El Martes, 25 de noviembre de 2014 17:01:10 Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger escribió:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
We do have MozillaFirebird and Thunderbird on the disk. Of course there is NO topic AT ALL to remove this from the repositories! Just from the DVDs.
How would everybody feel if this were to be removed from the main DVDs and only be available from the online repositories?
Do you have any other great suggestions on what we could spare on the DVD, getting some more air to breath (the limit is hard - no need to negotiate the size of the DVD)
Cheers, Dominique
I did ask sometime ago if we could have package download statistics in the OBS, but it seems that it is not possible. That would help a lot to take package related decisions. I would remove from the DVD: seamonkey, calibre, frozen-bubble, blender, qt-creator, wine, mono, kstars, hugin, wireshark, inkscape, calligra suite, festival, kiten, a few games, screensavers, xine, marble and maps, gvim, festival, rhythmbox, and all -doc and -help packages. Greetings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 19:14, jcsl wrote:
seamonkey, calibre, frozen-bubble, blender, qt-creator, wine, mono, kstars, hugin, wireshark, inkscape, calligra suite, festival, kiten, a few games, screensavers, xine, marble and maps, gvim, festival, rhythmbox, and all -doc and -help packages.
You need some video viewer, and xine is not that big. Festival is needed for visually impaired people. Wireshark may be needed to evaluate some network problems during setup. I'm not sure about help files. Removing mono would force removal of others, like tomboy. You also need some incarnation of "vi", as it is the standard editor on any *nix (no, I don't touch 'vi' with a long pole myself, but...) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR0yMUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X2XgCfQ6gluct1OERu4pGqXIdp6Efk RhYAnit3G6L33PVg22ztFCvAvgAu1RB5 =78bG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi. El Martes, 25 de noviembre de 2014 19:22:00 Carlos E. R. escribió:
On 2014-11-25 19:14, jcsl wrote:
seamonkey, calibre, frozen-bubble, blender, qt-creator, wine, mono, kstars, hugin, wireshark, inkscape, calligra suite, festival, kiten, a few games, screensavers, xine, marble and maps, gvim, festival, rhythmbox, and all -doc and -help packages.
You need some video viewer, and xine is not that big. Festival is needed for visually impaired people. Wireshark may be needed to evaluate some network problems during setup. I'm not sure about help files. Removing mono would force removal of others, like tomboy. You also need some incarnation of "vi", as it is the standard editor on any *nix (no, I don't touch 'vi' with a long pole myself, but...)
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
It's not that xine is big, is that "I think" that it is seldom used and the with library provided you cannot play anything (AFAIR), you need the Packman repo one. About Festival, I'm not sure of it being used for that, I believe that Orca is the option here. Kate has a Vi mode and probably gEdit has it too (and Vim is installed by default). Tomboy is not very important and mono takes a lot of space. Wireshark, well without numbers available I don't know how many users would be affected, but it is a tool for advanced users and I think that they can manage without it, and how do you use it for debugging during installation anyway? I didn't know that you could install and use programs in the installation phase... Greetings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 19:43, jcsl wrote:
It's not that xine is big, is that "I think" that it is seldom used and the with library provided you cannot play anything (AFAIR), you need the Packman repo one.
Some videos (ogg) do work, and it can be used as backend for other tools, like kaffeine, I think. Maybe it uses gstreamer now, dunno.
About Festival, I'm not sure of it being used for that, I believe that Orca is the option here.
Festival could be the backend used by speech tools in kde or gnome.
Kate has a Vi mode and probably gEdit has it too
Yes, but it is a requirement to have "vi" available in text mode.
Wireshark, well without numbers available I don't know how many users would be affected, but it is a tool for advanced users and I think that they can manage without it, and how do you use it for debugging during installation anyway? I didn't know that you could install and use programs in the installation phase...
Not during the installation, but to diagnose networking problems after install, that impede updating and installing further packages. Networking been complete is an absolute requirement for the dvd. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR08JcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UMywCghYg01j/izvGSjzqPS9ct6vXR Ia0An2lmU362fvsDOwJAVHxUk+YPW7Di =ox2a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi. El Martes, 25 de noviembre de 2014 22:11:52 Carlos E. R. escribió:
On 2014-11-25 19:43, jcsl wrote:
It's not that xine is big, is that "I think" that it is seldom used and the with library provided you cannot play anything (AFAIR), you need the Packman repo one.
Some videos (ogg) do work, and it can be used as backend for other tools, like kaffeine, I think. Maybe it uses gstreamer now, dunno.
I think that all video players can play ogg because it is an open format. As every desktop install one there's no need for it. I used to use it, nothing against the program. It is nice for DVD and DVB playback, after you install the codecs. :)
About Festival, I'm not sure of it being used for that, I believe that Orca is the option here.
Festival could be the backend used by speech tools in kde or gnome.
I didn't knew that it was used as a backend. I think that GNOME prefers Orca, I don't know what is used in KDE (I thought that it was using some Phonon stuff). Btw, have you heard the Spanish voices in Festival? Do and have fun. :)
Kate has a Vi mode and probably gEdit has it too
Yes, but it is a requirement to have "vi" available in text mode.
Yes, and you have Vim (a.k.a. Vi IMproved) installed by default.
Wireshark, well without numbers available I don't know how many users would be affected, but it is a tool for advanced users and I think that they can manage without it, and how do you use it for debugging during installation anyway? I didn't know that you could install and use programs in the installation phase...
Not during the installation, but to diagnose networking problems after install, that impede updating and installing further packages. Networking been complete is an absolute requirement for the dvd.
I think that people using that tool for that can be counted on the fingers of one hand. :) If I have understood it well, Tumbleweed is intended for regular users (that doesn't exclude powers users, of course). And as I said before, they should manage well without Wireshark. Greetings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 22:42, jcsl wrote:
About Festival, I'm not sure of it being used for that, I believe that Orca is the option here.
Festival could be the backend used by speech tools in kde or gnome.
I didn't knew that it was used as a backend.
I'm unsure if it is, but perhaps it is. I'm unsure how to verify.
I think that GNOME prefers Orca, I don't know what is used in KDE (I thought that it was using some Phonon stuff). Btw, have you heard the Spanish voices in Festival? Do and have fun. :)
Yep. You can add more voices that can not be distributed, like some from the Junta de Andalucía. Ask me on the Spanish mail list, or search the archive, maybe I posted about it years ago. ;-)
If I have understood it well, Tumbleweed is intended for regular users (that doesn't exclude powers users, of course). And as I said before, they should manage well without Wireshark.
Some say that Tw is for experts. But anyway, what is done for Tw will eventually go into 13.3. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR1CVAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V5rQCfSaBNrCfmR1vDsfWYxcFhGCOP bPQAn3urlZYjQ7CoBBBajMrfSZrisO1J =TmXs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 01:14 PM, jcsl wrote:
wireshark
Wireshark is essential for anyone who works with networks. Perhaps we can get rid of frivolous stuff like LibreOffice. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 19:23, James Knott wrote:
Perhaps we can get rid of frivolous stuff like LibreOffice. ;-)
LOL. Seriously, maybe we can drop some less used components of it, like the database component - if it is separate component at all. Leave writer and calc. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR0ycAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XTTwCdFYbdtYlIFl5vdtRnG1sdQ0i5 DjoAnAwT6E9aB0wuchC6Gc073+ygYxNX =lEbf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 12:23 PM, James Knott wrote:
On 11/25/2014 01:14 PM, jcsl wrote:
wireshark
Wireshark is essential for anyone who works with networks.
Perhaps we can get rid of frivolous stuff like LibreOffice. ;-)
I see the full DVD as being used by people that have limitations to their networks that prevent using the NET install iso, or one of the Live DVD isos. They might be purchasing the DVD, or getting it from a friend that has better connectivity. It needs to have the applications needed to perform basic office operations, to browse the web, and send/receive E-mail. For me, that means LibreOffice, Firefox, and Thunderbird, but there may be alternatives that use less DVD space. For me, playing games on the computer is something I never do, and all of them can be removed as far as I am concerned. Yes, wireshark is essential for anyone solving network problems, but I do not think it is essential for it to be on the DVD. Having it in the repo is good enough. I have never found it necessary to get the initial network connection working - wireshark and kismet are much more important for relatively obscure wireless problems. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-25 19:49, Larry Finger wrote:
On 11/25/2014 12:23 PM, James Knott wrote:
For me, playing games on the computer is something I never do, and all of them can be removed as far as I am concerned.
Checking a game is a good test of the computer, how responsive it is. For some one trying the distro it can be important - and there are gamers out there. So no big games, but some. I use one of Tux going down snow slopes to test graphics response :-)
Yes, wireshark is essential for anyone solving network problems, but I do not think it is essential for it to be on the DVD. Having it in the repo is good enough.
Not if you can't get network running before having network. :-p - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR08XYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WwnwCfefq/A+DECxtnrQ/tA2mv5TGG oHUAnidkpJewndQceyuMjZY6qUN4LQqH =0UZw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi. El Martes, 25 de noviembre de 2014 17:01:10 Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger escribió:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
We do have MozillaFirebird and Thunderbird on the disk. Of course there is NO topic AT ALL to remove this from the repositories! Just from the DVDs.
How would everybody feel if this were to be removed from the main DVDs and only be available from the online repositories?
Do you have any other great suggestions on what we could spare on the DVD, getting some more air to breath (the limit is hard - no need to negotiate the size of the DVD)
Cheers, Dominique
Perhaps we could to reduce the number of alternatives for programs already installed by default. For example, if GNOME installs Music by default, keep either Banshee or Rhythmbox but not both. I'm not sure if they are equivalent, it's just an example. Greetings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 23:12 +0100, jcsl wrote:
Hi.
El Martes, 25 de noviembre de 2014 17:01:10 Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger escribió:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
We do have MozillaFirebird and Thunderbird on the disk. Of course there is NO topic AT ALL to remove this from the repositories! Just from the DVDs.
How would everybody feel if this were to be removed from the main DVDs and only be available from the online repositories?
Do you have any other great suggestions on what we could spare on the DVD, getting some more air to breath (the limit is hard - no need to negotiate the size of the DVD)
Cheers, Dominique
Perhaps we could to reduce the number of alternatives for programs already installed by default. For example, if GNOME installs Music by default, keep either Banshee or Rhythmbox but not both. I'm not sure if they are equivalent, it's just an example.
That is indeed something we're trying to do already for the Live CDs and I think it is done already for the DVD. Not getting rid of alternatives per se on the DVD, but having a reduction where it makes sense... This thought is also what lead me to propose the removal of seamonkey in first place. Dominique -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/14 17:01, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
As somebody who uses Seamonkey and who pays(!! -- yes, I have a subscriptiom) for each openSUSE-DVD: yes, drop it. Those of us who use Seamonkey are more than likely to switch to the OBS repository for a current version anyhow, so go for it. It's a good candidate to get rid of for the DVD. Cheers, Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 03:03 +0100, Joachim Schrod wrote:
On 11/25/14 17:01, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
As somebody who uses Seamonkey and who pays(!! -- yes, I have a subscriptiom) for each openSUSE-DVD: yes, drop it.
Those of us who use Seamonkey are more than likely to switch to the OBS repository for a current version anyhow, so go for it. It's a good candidate to get rid of for the DVD.
Thanks Joachim! I'm happy to hear from actual users of this package. After all, THOSE are the users affected by the change. Dominique -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 6:17 AM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> wrote:
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 03:03 +0100, Joachim Schrod wrote:
On 11/25/14 17:01, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
As somebody who uses Seamonkey and who pays(!! -- yes, I have a subscriptiom) for each openSUSE-DVD: yes, drop it.
Those of us who use Seamonkey are more than likely to switch to the OBS repository for a current version anyhow, so go for it. It's a good candidate to get rid of for the DVD.
Thanks Joachim!
I'm happy to hear from actual users of this package. After all, THOSE are the users affected by the change.
Dominique -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org>
I argue 99% (or more) of users of a deleted package won't even know it was deleted. During the install the online repos will be setup and the deleted packages installed from the online repo. For me, I really don't care if the squid proxy comes from DVD or an online repo. (If the squid proxy is currently on the DVD, I say kill it.) I suspect very few of the participants in this thread will even notice if/when packages they routinely use are deleted from the DVD. All critical network related packages should be on the NETWORK CD. Anything on the network cd obviously needs to be on the dvd. For the vast majority of users, everything else is just a nicety. You could just randomly throw darts at the list of packages on the DVD and not on the CD and any of them can be removed with little or no end-user visibility. The exception is users that install openSUSE on machines isolated from the Internet. I don't do that, so I have no input worth considering. No one responding to this thread has said they do that, so none of us have a meaningful input as far as I'm concerned. fyi: I do run openSUSE live media, but I use susestudio to build exactly what I want. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Joachim Schrod composed on 2014-11-26 03:03 (UTC+0100):
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
As somebody who uses Seamonkey and who pays(!! -- yes, I have a subscriptiom) for each openSUSE-DVD: yes, drop it.
Has it escaped everyone's notice that latest Firefox rpm is now bigger (34M, no email) than latest SeaMonkey rpm (31M with email)? Firefox 1 & 2 downloads, depending on build source, were in the 8-10MB range.
Those of us who use Seamonkey are more than likely to switch to the OBS repository for a current version anyhow, so go for it. It's a good candidate to get rid of for the DVD.
Some of us are SeaMonkey users because it's the web suite we used to learn the Internet, browsing, and email, and more, and never switched to anything else. Here for all the above it's been an unbroken chain: Netscape 2 Netscape 3 Netscape 4 Mozilla 0.x Mozilla 1.x SeaMonkey 1.x Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:33.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.30 (as you can see in this email's headers) Switching to "latest" or OBS is a red herring. Every new installation from GA DVD has an old browser version that needs updating ASAP no matter which browser one prefers. If you want to free DVD space deleting Internet apps, deleting the RAM and storage space-wasting Firefox+Thunderbird combination instead of SeaMonkey leaves the initial installation more functional. SeaMonkey starts right off the bat with features that require a bunch of add-ons to acquire, which the DVD omits, with the stripped-down, minimalist UI, Chrome lookalike, Mozilla Suite spinoff that is Firefox. If you're going to get rid of SeaMonkey you should get rid of both Firefox and Thunderbird too instead of making people install Internet space-wasters they won't use just to be able to get to Internet they will use. Opera's rpm takes half the DVD space of Firefox's while including the email functionality that would require TB or SM in addition to FF. Links will get people onto the Internet from an only 3MB rpm, without need for nspr, nss and branding requires in addition. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 26.11.2014 um 13:34 schrieb Felix Miata:
Joachim Schrod composed on 2014-11-26 03:03 (UTC+0100):
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
As somebody who uses Seamonkey and who pays(!! -- yes, I have a subscriptiom) for each openSUSE-DVD: yes, drop it.
If you're going to get rid of SeaMonkey you should get rid of both Firefox and Thunderbird too instead of making people install Internet space-wasters they won't use just to be able to get to Internet they will use. Opera's rpm takes half the DVD space of Firefox's while including the email functionality that would require TB or SM in addition to FF. Links will get people onto the Internet from an only 3MB rpm, without need for nspr, nss and branding requires in addition.
AFAIK Firefox is the standard web browser for KDE. As long as this does not get changed, we should keep it. Hendrik -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Hendrik Woltersdorf <hendrikw@arcor.de> [11-26-14 12:22]:
Am 26.11.2014 um 13:34 schrieb Felix Miata:
Joachim Schrod composed on 2014-11-26 03:03 (UTC+0100):
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
One candidate I could identify is * seamonkey
As somebody who uses Seamonkey and who pays(!! -- yes, I have a subscriptiom) for each openSUSE-DVD: yes, drop it.
If you're going to get rid of SeaMonkey you should get rid of both Firefox and Thunderbird too instead of making people install Internet space-wasters they won't use just to be able to get to Internet they will use. Opera's rpm takes half the DVD space of Firefox's while including the email functionality that would require TB or SM in addition to FF. Links will get people onto the Internet from an only 3MB rpm, without need for nspr, nss and branding requires in addition.
AFAIK Firefox is the standard web browser for KDE. As long as this does not get changed, we should keep it.
If one considers that as a valid critera, all gnome apps should be removed from the dvd, but wait: firefox is a gnome app..... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 12:28 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
AFAIK Firefox is the standard web browser for KDE. As long as this does not get changed, we should keep it.
If one considers that as a valid critera, all gnome apps should be removed from the dvd, but wait: firefox is a gnome app.....
<(((º> -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org>
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> [11-26-14 12:33]:
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 12:28 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
AFAIK Firefox is the standard web browser for KDE. As long as this does not get changed, we should keep it.
If one considers that as a valid critera, all gnome apps should be removed from the dvd, but wait: firefox is a gnome app.....
<(((º>
Just in case that is *not* a smelly: rpm -q --requires MozillaFirefox |grep gtk libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0()(64bit) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 12:38 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> [11-26-14 12:33]:
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 12:28 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
AFAIK Firefox is the standard web browser for KDE. As long as this does not get changed, we should keep it.
If one considers that as a valid critera, all gnome apps should be removed from the dvd, but wait: firefox is a gnome app.....
<(((º>
Just in case that is *not* a smelly: rpm -q --requires MozillaFirefox |grep gtk libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0()(64bit)
It is a smelly... Glad you know it. Something using GTK+ as a toolkit is not a GNOME App yet; FF does not follow any of the GNOME release schedules, it does not follow the GNOME HIG and most of all, it does not even properly integrate into the GNOME Desktop. Nontheless, it remains the default browser on openSUSE for all Desktop Environments. And for the sake of completeness, the GNOME Web Browser is called epiphany. -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-26 18:58, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Wed, 2014-11-26 at 12:38 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
<(((º>
Just in case that is *not* a smelly: rpm -q --requires MozillaFirefox |grep gtk libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0()(64bit)
It is a smelly... Glad you know it.
What is an "smelly"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smelly +++———————————————————— Smelly may refer to: something with a disagreeable odor Erik Sandin, drummer with NOFX Smelly or Dai Okazaki, a Japanese comedic performer Ely Calil, a British-Lebanese businessman ————————————————————++- I have no idea what that symbol may be, or what it may mean in the context of this thread. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR2T0UACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X2SgCbBjbiLBOXxRV+jRUoCJ9UbT2U VK8AnjmXhWQGDT7BqNTGWRVTfNH3TSJW =jlrY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger composed on 2014-11-26 18:32 (UTC+0100):
<(((º>
Nothing intelligible to be gleaned here from whatever that is. Please translate to English. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 2014-11-26 18:41, Felix Miata wrote:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger composed on 2014-11-26 18:32 (UTC+0100):
<(((º>
Nothing intelligible to be gleaned here from whatever that is. Please translate to English.
It's universal! But for the UTF-8 impaired, here is a (colored) ASCII variant: http://tinyurl.com/qybnvkm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Jan Engelhardt composed on 2014-11-26 19:44 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger composed on 2014-11-26 18:32 (UTC+0100):
<(((ú>
Nothing intelligible to be gleaned here from whatever that is. Please translate to English.
It's universal!
Hardly. None of my English grammar or literature teachers taught it, and not everybody knows anything more about games than what they learn from recess or The Big Bang Theory, if that much. Around here, we have Gar, Mullet, Bluegill, Largemouth Bass, Shellcracker, Mackerel, Redfish, Kingfish, Yellow Jack, Blue Runner, Dolphin, Bonefish, Mangrove Snapper, Red Snapper, Tarpon, Puffer, Cobia, Needlefish, Snook, Pinfish, Fiddler Crab, Blue Crab, Horseshoe Crab, Eel, Ray, Speckled Trout, Grouper, Sand Shark, Catfish, Carp, minnows, and more, but not Dopefish.
But for the UTF-8 impaired, here is a (colored) ASCII variant: http://tinyurl.com/qybnvkm -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 2014-11-26 22:47, Felix Miata wrote:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger composed on 2014-11-26 18:32 (UTC+0100):
<(((�º>
Please translate to English. [...] The Big Bang Theory [...] Around here, we have Gar, Mullet, Bluegill, Largemouth Bass, Shellcracker, Mackerel, Redfish, Kingfish, Yellow Jack, Blue Runner, Dolphin, Bonefish, Mangrove Snapper, Red Snapper, Tarpon, Puffer, Cobia, Needlefish, Snook, Pinfish, Fiddler Crab, Blue Crab, Horseshoe Crab, Eel, Ray, Speckled Trout, Grouper, Sand Shark, Catfish, Carp, minnows, and more, but not Dopefish.
It's _just_ a (stupid) fish, no specific genus, no need to reenact TBBT. Just a simple fish — though with a lot of gray matter now thanks to your MUA ;-) (Translation of Dominique's line: "here is your fish".) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hendrik Woltersdorf composed on 2014-11-26 18:21 (UTC+0100):
AFAIK Firefox is the standard web browser for KDE.
Oh? I have lots of KDE installations lacking Firefox, none lacking Konqueror. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, Am 26.11.2014 um 13:34 schrieb Felix Miata:
If you want to free DVD space deleting Internet apps, deleting the RAM and storage space-wasting Firefox+Thunderbird combination instead of SeaMonkey leaves the initial installation more functional. SeaMonkey starts right off the bat with features that require a bunch of add-ons to acquire, which the DVD omits, with the stripped-down, minimalist UI, Chrome lookalike, Mozilla Suite spinoff that is Firefox.
Yes, most of us know. And some of us still prefer Seamonkey. I did for a long time and I also do not agree with everything happening in Firefox like copying everything from Chrome.
If you're going to get rid of SeaMonkey you should get rid of both Firefox and Thunderbird too instead of making people install Internet space-wasters they won't use just to be able to get to Internet they will use. Opera's rpm takes half the DVD space of Firefox's while including the email functionality that would require TB or SM in addition to FF. Links will get people onto the Internet from an only 3MB rpm, without need for nspr, nss and branding requires in addition.
Is Opera (the version with the mail client) OSS? NSPR and NSS are packages required from more than one app but also required by Firefox. But why should that need extra space? The branding package is pretty minimal as well. So all those are no arguments. For sure you get more functionality per byte when you go for Seamonkey instead of Firefox/Thunderbird but does it satisfy your users where many have no idea what seamonkey is at all but they know Firefox and Thunderbird from their Windows? People knowing Seamonkey will know how to get it. I "support" all of them otherwise I wouldn't package them since they exist but honestly I support the most used OSS webbrowser to be on the DVD media. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 2014-11-26 20:49, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
For sure you get more functionality per byte when you go for Seamonkey instead of Firefox/Thunderbird but does it satisfy your users where many have no idea what seamonkey is at all but they know Firefox and Thunderbird from their Windows?
Firefox, Iceweasel, Seamonkey... what's in a name? Also, it's not like we suggest Vimperator to users — Chrome/-ium, Firefox, IE, Qupzilla, Konqueror, and so on, they all look and behave in the same way: there is an address bar, and a view pane. People unable to cope with those two simple elemens are probably outside of the target audience. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2014 05:01 PM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
Dear geekos,
Our beloved DVD, which we build for each Tumbleweed snapshot, is really at its limits space wise (today's snapshot actually grew over size compared to the last one, and I already had to drop some things).
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
IMHO every package maintainer should look to keep unnecessary stuff out of their packages. E.g. on my oS-13.2 system: $ find /usr/share/doc/packages -iname changelog -o -iname news \ | xargs du -shxc | tail -n1 104M total $ find /usr/share/doc/packages -iname changelog -o -iname news \ | xargs wc -l | sort -h | tail -n5 96303 /usr/share/doc/packages/gimp-help-browser/ChangeLog 96303 /usr/share/doc/packages/gimp/ChangeLog 99868 /usr/share/doc/packages/gstreamer/ChangeLog 211966 /usr/share/doc/packages/gnome-control-center/ChangeLog 3123120 total Who needs the full 3M lines of changelog and news when e.g. everything after the first let's say 10k lines could be replaced by a URL into the original repo/homepage/etc.? (I could imagine that some OBS checking rules could enforce such this.) Just a little example, and I know these text files are compressed in the RPMs, but as Dominique said: it simply sums up with the many thousands of packages. WDYT? Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Bernhard Voelker <mail@bernhard-voelker.de> wrote:
$ find /usr/share/doc/packages -iname changelog -o -iname news \ | xargs du -shxc | tail -n1 104M total
$ find /usr/share/doc/packages -iname changelog -o -iname news \ | xargs wc -l | sort -h | tail -n5 96303 /usr/share/doc/packages/gimp-help-browser/ChangeLog 96303 /usr/share/doc/packages/gimp/ChangeLog 99868 /usr/share/doc/packages/gstreamer/ChangeLog 211966 /usr/share/doc/packages/gnome-control-center/ChangeLog 3123120 total
Who needs the full 3M lines of changelog and news when e.g. everything after the first let's say 10k lines could be replaced by a URL into the original repo/homepage/etc.? (I could imagine that some OBS checking rules could enforce such this.)
Or what about gzipping them? Even vim supports opening gzipped text files. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 2014-11-27 00:55, Claudio Freire wrote:
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Bernhard Voelker <mail@bernhard-voelker.de> wrote:
$ find /usr/share/doc/packages -iname changelog -o -iname news \ | xargs du -shxc | tail -n1 104M total
$ find /usr/share/doc/packages -iname changelog -o -iname news \ | xargs wc -l | sort -h | tail -n5 96303 /usr/share/doc/packages/gimp-help-browser/ChangeLog 96303 /usr/share/doc/packages/gimp/ChangeLog 99868 /usr/share/doc/packages/gstreamer/ChangeLog 211966 /usr/share/doc/packages/gnome-control-center/ChangeLog 3123120 total
Who needs the full 3M lines of changelog and news when e.g. everything after the first let's say 10k lines could be replaced by a URL into the original repo/homepage/etc.? (I could imagine that some OBS checking rules could enforce such this.)
Or what about gzipping them?
When they are inside an RPM, they are compressed already. And when they are inside a squashfs, they too, are compressed already. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Thursday 2014-11-27 00:55, Claudio Freire wrote:
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Bernhard Voelker <mail@bernhard-voelker.de> wrote:
$ find /usr/share/doc/packages -iname changelog -o -iname news \ | xargs du -shxc | tail -n1 104M total
$ find /usr/share/doc/packages -iname changelog -o -iname news \ | xargs wc -l | sort -h | tail -n5 96303 /usr/share/doc/packages/gimp-help-browser/ChangeLog 96303 /usr/share/doc/packages/gimp/ChangeLog 99868 /usr/share/doc/packages/gstreamer/ChangeLog 211966 /usr/share/doc/packages/gnome-control-center/ChangeLog 3123120 total
Who needs the full 3M lines of changelog and news when e.g. everything after the first let's say 10k lines could be replaced by a URL into the original repo/homepage/etc.? (I could imagine that some OBS checking rules could enforce such this.)
Or what about gzipping them?
When they are inside an RPM, they are compressed already. And when they are inside a squashfs, they too, are compressed already.
That's right, silly me -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-27 00:24, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 11/25/2014 05:01 PM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
IMHO every package maintainer should look to keep unnecessary stuff out of their packages. E.g. on my oS-13.2 system:
I wonder if it is possible to create the DVD with trimmed down versions of the rpms. Run the rpms through a pruner. How much compressed space would we get by removing, the changelog, or at least, keep just the 1000 top lines of each one? Worth the effort? Maybe not. :-? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR2gXIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XdhwCghTen4g6rnlqqTDJmjGb0acNT 6zoAn1cWeAUDYaXC57b367pEw+A0NUIP =TtkM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-11-27 00:24, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 11/25/2014 05:01 PM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
I'm looking to gain more space to free up; but it seems not to be that easy.
IMHO every package maintainer should look to keep unnecessary stuff out of their packages. E.g. on my oS-13.2 system:
I wonder if it is possible to create the DVD with trimmed down versions of the rpms. Run the rpms through a pruner.
How much compressed space would we get by removing, the changelog, or at least, keep just the 1000 top lines of each one?
Worth the effort? Maybe not. :-?
Shouldn't all those changelogs and news be on a -doc subpackage? Just don't include the -doc on the DVD (if it's worth it), and split into a -doc subpackage whatever hasn't been split already. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-27 02:53, Claudio Freire wrote:
Shouldn't all those changelogs and news be on a -doc subpackage?
Just don't include the -doc on the DVD (if it's worth it), and split into a -doc subpackage whatever hasn't been split already.
The problem is that a single rpm would have to contain the docs of all packages, installed or not, unless split on several rpms (and that package would need very frequent updates). And, in particular the changelog, can be queried directly via rpm command, so it is an standard file that can not be easily removed. They might be trimmed, but they have to stay in the "parent" rpm. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR3KtMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VKPwCaAh4VwLAILM5m4ErWt4EWofLp LUQAnRL6p4++TwJZmCbMWZDEHqP1Jske =sTAK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-11-27 02:53, Claudio Freire wrote:
Shouldn't all those changelogs and news be on a -doc subpackage?
Just don't include the -doc on the DVD (if it's worth it), and split into a -doc subpackage whatever hasn't been split already.
The problem is that a single rpm would have to contain the docs of all packages, installed or not, unless split on several rpms (and that package would need very frequent updates). And, in particular the changelog, can be queried directly via rpm command, so it is an standard file that can not be easily removed.
They might be trimmed, but they have to stay in the "parent" rpm.
Carlos, I think you got this one wrong. The openSUSE standard is to move large doc sets out to a separate -doc rpm. Try: rpm -qa | grep doc and I suspect you have a few installed. I just checked a VM of mine and I have these -doc packages installed: bash-doc-4.2-68.12.1.noarch yast2-inetd-doc-3.0.0-2.1.4.noarch readline-doc-6.2-68.12.1.noarch unzip-doc-6.00-24.1.2.x86_64 gnuplot-doc-4.6.3-2.1.4.noarch apache2-doc-2.4.6-6.33.1.noarch amavisd-new-docs-2.8.1-2.8.1.x86_64 rubygem-webyast-mailsetting-doc-0.3.17-2.1.3.x86_64 rubygem-rdoc-3-3.12.2-3.1.2.x86_64 There are probably many more that could be isolated into -doc packages. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-27 18:39, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
They might be trimmed, but they have to stay in the "parent" rpm.
Carlos,
I think you got this one wrong. The openSUSE standard is to move large doc sets out to a separate -doc rpm.
Not the changelog. This subthread started about the changelog.
and I suspect you have a few installed. I just checked a VM of mine and I have these -doc packages installed:
bash-doc-4.2-68.12.1.noarch yast2-inetd-doc-3.0.0-2.1.4.noarch
cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -q --changelog bash | wc -l 664 cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -q --changelog bash-doc | wc -l 664 cer@Telcontar:~> Both packages contain a changelog. Probably the same one, meaning duplication! :-p But it is not an actual file: cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -ql bash | grep -i change cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -ql bash-doc | grep -i change cer@Telcontar:~> - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR3cDoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VF5ACeKy8voaH6LtNPxdxy0PS0zl++ 5pMAn18pDzbbyuE9YOjHbOmp/T+Tq1qE =cjDC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/27/2014 07:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -q --changelog bash | wc -l 664 cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -q --changelog bash-doc | wc -l 664 cer@Telcontar:~>
Both packages contain a changelog. Probably the same one, meaning duplication! :-P
That's the changelog of the openSUSE downstream package. Admittedly, having duplicate data there is not ideal. I was talking about the ChangeLog files directly installed and forwarded from the upstream package. Did you look at this one? /usr/share/doc/packages/gnome-control-center/ChangeLog IMO it's totally useless to have all upstream commit messages in the downstream openSUSE package. For the package I maintain, I'm considering 'head -n1000'-ing of that file to reduce its size, followed by a link to the upstream git repo. Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-28 00:09, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 11/27/2014 07:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
That's the changelog of the openSUSE downstream package.
Ah, I see. Some confusion, then.
For the package I maintain, I'm considering 'head -n1000'-ing of that file to reduce its size, followed by a link to the upstream git repo.
Actually, I did suggest something like that some mails back :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR30v4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WOjwCfSCjo9YlyVrQ6FLkAPzc3qXDm cwYAn095v9+VobekPRwuLlkPo7PILkHJ =xsPe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-28 02:42, I wrote:
On 2014-11-28 00:09, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
For the package I maintain, I'm considering 'head -n1000'-ing of that file to reduce its size, followed by a link to the upstream git repo.
Actually, I did suggest something like that some mails back :-)
I forgot: if the use case "grep the changelog for a particular item" is important, then maybe you can't. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR3038ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WyIwCfXNyvdtC/+bF68LWtXBB+eTmB nqQAnAlDJ6JPmffH85Q3GmpqNQXkbcip =WWyG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (30)
-
Ancor Gonzalez Sosa -
André Verwijs -
Bernhard Voelker -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Claudio Freire -
Daniele -
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
Hans Witvliet -
Hendrik Woltersdorf -
James Knott -
Jan Engelhardt -
jcsl -
Jiri Slaby -
Jiri Srain -
Joachim Schrod -
Ken Schneider - Factory -
Larry Finger -
Lew Wolfgang -
Lukas Ocilka -
Michal Kubecek -
Oliver Neukum -
Patrick Shanahan -
Roman Bysh -
Stanislav Baiduzhyi -
Stephan Kulow -
Tomas Cech -
Wolfgang Rosenauer