[opensuse-factory] opensuse-updater: "Check for any kind updates" option?
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---------------------------------------------------------------------To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.orgFor additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Den Monday 02 July 2007 22:12:01 skrev Rafał Miłecki:
Could some developer focus on this bug before publishing 10.3? It wouldn't be nice to remove ZMD and don't give any alternative wayof watching repositories for updates of _any_ kind (not these securityones only).
I think Duncan stated the position pretty clearly in the bugzilla comments (#54). "This feature can be consideered. But it is not a priority. We are making the updater more modular so you can plugin backends and behaviour, that feature will come naturally." Personally I think it's a good position. I much prefer the package management devs to work on libzypp performance and the like, rather than a feature that does far more harm than good. .. and with the rewritten libzypp and the cachestore it'll be pretty fast to check. zypper lu -t package or yast sw_single -> Package -> all packages -> update if newer avaialable --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-On 02/07/07, Rafał Miłecki <zajec5polish@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a well-discused bug on bugzilla: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=216097 about opensuse-updater.
I posted some idea of resolving this, which I find quite fine. You can find this in comment #57: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=216097#c57 Could some developer focus on this bug before publishing 10.3?
Unfortunately, it's not quite as simple as simply implementing checking for upgrades as an opt-in option. openSUSE-updater currently only notifies of updates and YOU installs them. So one would have to implement a GUI for upgrade-all packages functionality in YaST too. If it were as simple as adding a checkbox to adjust the priority of the packages to notify for it would have been done by now. There are also other things to be decided, like how to resolve package vendor "bouncing" where the user has e.g. guru & kde-backports repositories subscribed and the updater first updates to one then the other version of amarok, gaining and losing the additional functionality. e.g. just because a user subscribes to packman to get mp3 support and wishes to get upgrades to the packman packages he or she has installed, doesn't mean that he or she also wishes to change vendor of all suse packages to packman newer version. e.g. User probably doesn't want to install packman's somewhat broken alsa unless he or she has a problem with the suse version. Zen-updater's upgrade-all policy was fairly broken and no thought given to these kind of issues, (even had problems with multilib) it would be good to avoid that where possible. It may be we need 3 policies: - Updates only (as default now) - Updates and version upgrades from same vendor as installed package (e.g. if you install xine from packman you will get upgrades always from packman, but not from an alternative vendor, fixes the bouncing problem) - Upgrades from all vendors indiscriminately - like smart upgrade etc. (For people who have the knowledge to fix their system if the package manager does something stupid.) There are some strong opinions on this subject, It might be worth re-opening the discussion though. Meanwhile you can of course always "zypper up -t package" to upgrade all packages to newer versions indiscriminately. _ Benjamin Weber
Hi Benji, On Monday 02 July 2007 15:51, Benji Weber wrote:
It may be we need 3 policies:
- Updates only (as default now)
This is important for every user, and leaves system stable.
- Updates and version upgrades from same vendor as installed package (e.g. if you install xine from packman you will get upgrades always from packman, but not from an alternative vendor, fixes the bouncing problem)
This is fine for repositories that have no updates (fixes) like openSUSE, but offer newer version instead, which may require newer versions of dependencies, which can lead to avalanche of upgrade requests to satisfy newly created dependencies, and even if it is possible to find solution, after that system can't receive any security fixes trough regular updates. Some security holes will be patched by itself trough newer version of programs, some not.
- Upgrades from all vendors indiscriminately - like smart upgrade etc. (For people who have the knowledge to fix their system if the package manager does something stupid.)
Even if package manager doesn't do anything bad, users will at some point by telling PM to ignore dependencies, and end result is for sure system in undefined state, which mean it can be anything from stable to fairly broken.
There are some strong opinions on this subject, It might be worth re-opening the discussion though.
It is opened, for anyone that has opinion ;-) -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Benji Weber <b.weber@warwick.ac.uk> [Jul 02. 2007 22:51]:
There are also other things to be decided, like how to resolve package vendor "bouncing" where the user has e.g. guru & kde-backports repositories subscribed and the updater first updates to one then the other version of amarok, gaining and losing the additional functionality.
Actually, thats the biggest problem when 'blindly' updating all packages.
Zen-updater's upgrade-all policy was fairly broken and no thought given to these kind of issues, (even had problems with multilib) it would be good to avoid that where possible.
Remember that zen-updater was designed with a ZLM (zenwork linux mgmt) server in mind. The server always shows the client a 'perfect' world and installing all upgrades is the right approach in this environment. However, this fails when deployed in a more 'hostile' environment with lots of 3rd party repositories.
It may be we need 3 policies:
- Updates only (as default now) - Updates and version upgrades from same vendor as installed package (e.g. if you install xine from packman you will get upgrades always from packman, but not from an alternative vendor, fixes the bouncing problem) - Upgrades from all vendors indiscriminately - like smart upgrade etc. (For people who have the knowledge to fix their system if the package manager does something stupid.)
There might be even another approach - updating by repository. Looking at a typical system, one usually has - the installation repository (i.e. openSuSE 10.2) - the update repository (for openSuSE 10.2) - one or more add-on repositories (packman, guru, ...) Under the assumption that each repository by itself is consistent, one should be able to 'update all' on a per-repository basis. The default would be "update everything", starting with the updates for openSuSE 10.2 first, then the other add-ons. One could also restrict updates to a specific repo only. So if you have e.g. KDE4 subscribed, you should be able to update only packages coming from the KDE4 repo. This basically introduces priorities on repositories, with the update repo of the installed OS at the highest prio. Probably a project for the next hack-week ... ;-) Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-07-03 at 09:06 +0200, Klaus Kaempf wrote: ...
There might be even another approach - updating by repository.
Why not "find out what is updatable and show a list where I can choose from? Ie, a selection to choose aside from "security patches only / all". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGihe5tTMYHG2NR9URAmbcAJ4zrpsjcrCGENqsjRl5c7T1lxOCWQCbBU4g QImUsdLXea9uHCVRz5p5wTA= =L3xF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [Jul 03. 2007 11:32]:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Tuesday 2007-07-03 at 09:06 +0200, Klaus Kaempf wrote:
...
There might be even another approach - updating by repository.
Why not "find out what is updatable and show a list where I can choose from? Ie, a selection to choose aside from "security patches only / all".
The problem is to "find out what is updatable". Maybe an update from one repo conflicts with another. Which one to choose ? Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-07-03 at 13:48 +0200, Klaus Kaempf wrote:
There might be even another approach - updating by repository.
Why not "find out what is updatable and show a list where I can choose from? Ie, a selection to choose aside from "security patches only / all".
The problem is to "find out what is updatable". Maybe an update from one repo conflicts with another. Which one to choose ?
Ahhh... oops, right. Mmm... Then, show what is updatable for each repo, perhaps show a list by repo? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGiu0jtTMYHG2NR9URAosbAJ9+nPWgo9bJ1dYBpW1KeXtGCYJHsgCfQkmz KkXe4pcpQ0+zvy4peZBPwMM= =Lrs1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 04 July 2007 02:43:02 wrote Carlos E. R.:
The Tuesday 2007-07-03 at 13:48 +0200, Klaus Kaempf wrote:
There might be even another approach - updating by repository.
Why not "find out what is updatable and show a list where I can choose from? Ie, a selection to choose aside from "security patches only / all".
The problem is to "find out what is updatable". Maybe an update from one repo conflicts with another. Which one to choose ?
Ahhh... oops, right. Mmm... Then, show what is updatable for each repo, perhaps show a list by repo?
I would like to avoid user confusing by showing a large numbers of repos ... Better make suggestion how to solve it as a whole. -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) email: adrian@suse.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Adrian Schröter <adrian@suse.de> [Jul 04. 2007 09:37]:
On Wednesday 04 July 2007 02:43:02 wrote Carlos E. R.:
Ahhh... oops, right. Mmm... Then, show what is updatable for each repo, perhaps show a list by repo?
I would like to avoid user confusing by showing a large numbers of repos ...
Better make suggestion how to solve it as a whole.
Thats exactly is the tricky part ;-) Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-07-04 at 10:45 +0200, Klaus Kaempf wrote:
* Adrian Schröter <adrian@suse.de> [Jul 04. 2007 09:37]:
On Wednesday 04 July 2007 02:43:02 wrote Carlos E. R.:
Ahhh... oops, right. Mmm... Then, show what is updatable for each repo, perhaps show a list by repo?
I would like to avoid user confusing by showing a large numbers of repos ...
Better make suggestion how to solve it as a whole.
Thats exactly is the tricky part ;-)
:-) Anyway, I suppose that if the user has activated a dozen repos, he must be prepared for some confussion, but he surely must be interested in knowing what is new from all, sorted somehow. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGi6krtTMYHG2NR9URAhPnAJkB0gtb8sB6HByJ/CRH3jV1vfXgIwCeIEkp DuATJpjYxu6IEMt5/EU3gS4= =nmkY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
2007/7/4, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Wednesday 2007-07-04 at 10:45 +0200, Klaus Kaempf wrote:
* Adrian Schröter <adrian@suse.de> [Jul 04. 2007 09:37]:
On Wednesday 04 July 2007 02:43:02 wrote Carlos E. R.:
Ahhh... oops, right. Mmm... Then, show what is updatable for each repo, perhaps show a list by repo?
I would like to avoid user confusing by showing a large numbers of repos ...
Better make suggestion how to solve it as a whole.
Thats exactly is the tricky part ;-)
:-)
Anyway, I suppose that if the user has activated a dozen repos, he must be prepared for some confussion, but he surely must be interested in knowing what is new from all, sorted somehow.
It depends what we want openSUSE to be. I installed openSUSE on computers of a few people and I *had to* add them at least 3 repositories. Packman, Guru and repo with "kadu" is "must be" for a common user. Belive me, these ppl know quite nothing about systems and they use openSUSE with 3 additional repositories. Method of managing updates is hard to create but is also hightly needed. Lack of updaing applications from 3rd party repositories may be really dangerous. -- Rafał Miłecki
On Wednesday 04 July 2007 13:23, Rafał Miłecki wrote:
2007/7/4, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>: ....
Anyway, I suppose that if the user has activated a dozen repos, he must be prepared for some confussion, but he surely must be interested in knowing what is new from all, sorted somehow.
It depends what we want openSUSE to be. I installed openSUSE on computers of a few people and I *had to* add them at least 3 repositories. Packman, Guru and repo with "kadu" is "must be" for a common user. Belive me, these ppl know quite nothing about systems and they use openSUSE with 3 additional repositories.
Method of managing updates is hard to create but is also hightly needed. Lack of updaing applications from 3rd party repositories may be really dangerous.
There is difference between repositories. OpenSUSE are static except updates. The rest is dynamic and it is designed to keep system stable, just to provide new version of software. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Have one question: there is for ex. freetype in my system installed as RPM. Does YaST know where from is this RPM installed (DVD/update/packman/etc.)? -- Rafał Miłecki
* Rafał Miłecki <zajec5polish@gmail.com> [Jul 05. 2007 13:13]:
Have one question: there is for ex. freetype in my system installed as RPM. Does YaST know where from is this RPM installed (DVD/update/packman/etc.)?
No, not in openSUSE 10.2 We are working on a solution, though. Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 04 July 2007 20:23:20 Rafał Miłecki wrote:
Method of managing updates is hard to create but is also hightly needed. Lack of updaing applications from 3rd party repositories may be really dangerous.
Don't mix upgrading with updating. Guru and packman just upgrade the packages. They don't offer a frozen repo for 10.2 and then just apply fixes and release patches. -- Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett Novell :: SUSE R&D, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
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---------------------------------------------------------------------To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.orgFor additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Klaus Kaempf escribió:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [Jul 03. 2007 11:32]:
There might be even another approach - updating by repository. Why not "find out what is updatable and show a list where I can choose from? Ie, a selection to choose aside from "security patches only / all".
The problem is to "find out what is updatable". Maybe an update from one repo conflicts with another. Which one to choose ?
Choose the one from which is installed. Regards. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Gabriel <gabriel.sgt@gmail.com> [Jul 04. 2007 02:51]:
Klaus Kaempf escribió:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [Jul 03. 2007 11:32]:
There might be even another approach - updating by repository. Why not "find out what is updatable and show a list where I can choose from? Ie, a selection to choose aside from "security patches only / all".
The problem is to "find out what is updatable". Maybe an update from one repo conflicts with another. Which one to choose ?
Choose the one from which is installed.
Sure. But thats only one part of the equation. The problem is distinct repos and conflicting updates. Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Klaus Kaempf escribió:
* Gabriel <gabriel.sgt@gmail.com> [Jul 04. 2007 02:51]:
Klaus Kaempf escribió:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [Jul 03. 2007 11:32]:
There might be even another approach - updating by repository. Why not "find out what is updatable and show a list where I can choose from? Ie, a selection to choose aside from "security patches only / all". The problem is to "find out what is updatable". Maybe an update from one repo conflicts with another. Which one to choose ?
Choose the one from which is installed.
Sure. But thats only one part of the equation. The problem is distinct repos and conflicting updates.
Klaus
It seems that smart is capable of manage it. You can have a look at the source to see what is doing. Regards. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 04/07/07, Gabriel <gabriel.sgt@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems that smart is capable of manage it. You can have a look at the source to see what is doing.
Smart handles this quite badly, it just blindly upgrades to newer versioned packages regardless of the vendor/repository. _ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Benji Weber schreef:
On 04/07/07, Gabriel <gabriel.sgt@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems that smart is capable of manage it. You can have a look at the source to see what is doing.
Smart handles this quite badly, it just blindly upgrades to newer versioned packages regardless of the vendor/repository.
Yep, helas you have to be very carefull with the smart 'upgrade all' function. This option irreversibly wrecked my system twice... (had to reinstall, which takes more time to get it all back in order, due to the causes we all know: MM & Licenses..;-(, reason why we need other repos, a.o) Shame, because smart is realy fast, but it is impossible to unmark unwanted pkgs from the update all option, otherwise it would useable, after one did know which pkgs are causing the trouble... I must say that after these negative experiences, i am rarely using smart anymore.
_ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
- -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGi6ByX5/X5X6LpDgRAoTzAJ9XCIXzBsih7YjQ7tG2b7MRxIWvFwCgsBY3 KPq7IEZoIeigsSwosTpoSAg= =C2Nm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Adrian Schröter -
Benji Weber -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodriguez R. -
Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett -
Gabriel -
Juan Erbes -
Klaus Kaempf -
M9. -
Martin Schlander -
Rafał Miłecki -
Rajko M.