[opensuse-factory] Purpose of aaa_base x sysvinit-init conflict?
Hello, yesterday I installed 12.3 Beta 1 and I was quite surprised that when I attempted to install sysvinit-init, zypper told me it would have to uninstall almost everything. Quick investigation led me to line Conflicts: sysvinit-init in aaa_base.spec. I tried to think of the reason for this but I couldn't find any except, of course, liberally making using System V init impossible - but I hope OpenSuSE is not _that_ far down the slope. Can someone explain me the purpose of this artificial conflict? Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 08:58:24AM +0100, Michal Kubeček wrote:
Hello,
yesterday I installed 12.3 Beta 1 and I was quite surprised that when I attempted to install sysvinit-init, zypper told me it would have to uninstall almost everything. Quick investigation led me to line
Conflicts: sysvinit-init
in aaa_base.spec. I tried to think of the reason for this but I couldn't
Yeah, osc blame would be nice to have ... Anyway osc cat and grep pointed me to revision 403 https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff?linkrev=base&package=aaa_base&project=Base%3ASystem&rev=403 which seems to be a pretty intentional change, but as sysvinit was not dropped from Factory, it is really surprissing. Because all other systemd related changes in aaa_base look like removing a support for sysvinit target ... Regards Michal Vyskocil
find any except, of course, liberally making using System V init impossible - but I hope OpenSuSE is not _that_ far down the slope.
Can someone explain me the purpose of this artificial conflict?
Michal Kubeček
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 24.01.2013 09:39, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 08:58:24AM +0100, Michal Kubeček wrote:
Hello,
yesterday I installed 12.3 Beta 1 and I was quite surprised that when I attempted to install sysvinit-init, zypper told me it would have to uninstall almost everything. Quick investigation led me to line
Conflicts: sysvinit-init
in aaa_base.spec. I tried to think of the reason for this but I couldn't
Yeah, osc blame would be nice to have ...
Anyway osc cat and grep pointed me to revision 403 https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff?linkrev=base&package=aaa_base&project=Base%3ASystem&rev=403
which seems to be a pretty intentional change, but as sysvinit was not dropped from Factory, it is really surprissing. Because all other systemd related changes in aaa_base look like removing a support for sysvinit target ...
The drop of sysvinit-init is on the agenda for 12.3 - but the sysvinit package has tools we still need, so it's more than a drop. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 09:44:55AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 24.01.2013 09:39, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 08:58:24AM +0100, Michal Kubeček wrote:
Hello,
yesterday I installed 12.3 Beta 1 and I was quite surprised that when I attempted to install sysvinit-init, zypper told me it would have to uninstall almost everything. Quick investigation led me to line
Conflicts: sysvinit-init
in aaa_base.spec. I tried to think of the reason for this but I couldn't
Yeah, osc blame would be nice to have ...
Anyway osc cat and grep pointed me to revision 403 https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff?linkrev=base&package=aaa_base&project=Base%3ASystem&rev=403
which seems to be a pretty intentional change, but as sysvinit was not dropped from Factory, it is really surprissing. Because all other systemd related changes in aaa_base look like removing a support for sysvinit target ...
The drop of sysvinit-init is on the agenda for 12.3 - but the sysvinit package has tools we still need, so it's more than a drop.
OK - as I said the history of aaa_base look excactly like a drop of sysvinit support. But I (and Michal Kubecek probably too) have expected an announcenment (and unfortunatelly followed by needed flamewar) on factory ML. Thanks for making it clear Michal Vyskocil
On 24.01.2013 09:53, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 09:44:55AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 24.01.2013 09:39, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 08:58:24AM +0100, Michal Kubeček wrote:
Hello,
yesterday I installed 12.3 Beta 1 and I was quite surprised that when I attempted to install sysvinit-init, zypper told me it would have to uninstall almost everything. Quick investigation led me to line
Conflicts: sysvinit-init
in aaa_base.spec. I tried to think of the reason for this but I couldn't
Yeah, osc blame would be nice to have ...
Anyway osc cat and grep pointed me to revision 403 https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff?linkrev=base&package=aaa_base&project=Base%3ASystem&rev=403
which seems to be a pretty intentional change, but as sysvinit was not dropped from Factory, it is really surprissing. Because all other systemd related changes in aaa_base look like removing a support for sysvinit target ...
The drop of sysvinit-init is on the agenda for 12.3 - but the sysvinit package has tools we still need, so it's more than a drop.
OK - as I said the history of aaa_base look excactly like a drop of sysvinit support. But I (and Michal Kubecek probably too) have expected an announcenment (and unfortunatelly followed by needed flamewar) on factory ML.
Oh, there was a big flame war about dropping sysvinit and I bet 90% of the people did not read the last 10% - and in that 10% I said it's a good proposal :) And some others wanted to setup a project that makes 12.3 work with sysvinit again - and I'm waiting for that, but complaining that others are not doing it is much easier. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 09:57:51AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 24.01.2013 09:53, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 09:44:55AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 24.01.2013 09:39, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 08:58:24AM +0100, Michal Kubeček wrote:
Hello,
yesterday I installed 12.3 Beta 1 and I was quite surprised that when I attempted to install sysvinit-init, zypper told me it would have to uninstall almost everything. Quick investigation led me to line
Conflicts: sysvinit-init
in aaa_base.spec. I tried to think of the reason for this but I couldn't
Yeah, osc blame would be nice to have ...
Anyway osc cat and grep pointed me to revision 403 https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff?linkrev=base&package=aaa_base&project=Base%3ASystem&rev=403
which seems to be a pretty intentional change, but as sysvinit was not dropped from Factory, it is really surprissing. Because all other systemd related changes in aaa_base look like removing a support for sysvinit target ...
The drop of sysvinit-init is on the agenda for 12.3 - but the sysvinit package has tools we still need, so it's more than a drop.
OK - as I said the history of aaa_base look excactly like a drop of sysvinit support. But I (and Michal Kubecek probably too) have expected an announcenment (and unfortunatelly followed by needed flamewar) on factory ML.
Oh, there was a big flame war about dropping sysvinit and I bet 90% of the people did not read the last 10% - and in that 10% I said it's a good proposal :)
Sure - I remember that flamewar, just did not consider it as an announcenment. My feeling was - it is still something we want, but not setted up in a stone. Probably I've mixed it with a different thread about dropping a sysvinit support from packages. Nevermind - thanks again for making my memory better! Regards Michal Vyskocil
On Thursday 24 of January 2013 09:57EN, Stephan Kulow wrote:
And some others wanted to setup a project that makes 12.3 work with sysvinit again
I'm just starting with it as I feel I have to at least try before I start to look for a new distribution of choice. However, such task is going to be hard even without deliberate sticks on the path like this.
and I'm waiting for that, but complaining that others are not doing it is much easier.
I'm sorry you see it this way. Please notice I didn't complain about changes following the "we don't care" policy, e.g. removing a lot of needed scripts from aaa_base without moving them to some other package. That's something I can accept and it's not difficult to find last working versions of them and create a package sysvinit-scripts with them. On the other hand, useless hurdles like the artificial conflict I'm talking about are completely different story. One cannot live without aaa_base so now I have to fork my own aaa_base as well. Yes, I could also duplicate sysvinit-init under a different name but I don't feel this is the way things should be done. The conflict certainly hurts people who want to make System V init work. But I don't want to believe it is the only reason for it so I'm asking whether it does really help someone. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 24.01.2013 10:42, Michal Kubeček wrote:
On Thursday 24 of January 2013 09:57EN, Stephan Kulow wrote:
And some others wanted to setup a project that makes 12.3 work with sysvinit again
I'm just starting with it as I feel I have to at least try before I start to look for a new distribution of choice. However, such task is going to be hard even without deliberate sticks on the path like this.
and I'm waiting for that, but complaining that others are not doing it is much easier.
I'm sorry you see it this way. Please notice I didn't complain about changes following the "we don't care" policy, e.g. removing a lot of needed scripts from aaa_base without moving them to some other package. That's something I can accept and it's not difficult to find last working versions of them and create a package sysvinit-scripts with them. On the other hand, useless hurdles like the artificial conflict I'm talking about are completely different story. One cannot live without aaa_base so now I have to fork my own aaa_base as well. Yes, I could also duplicate sysvinit-init under a different name but I don't feel this is the way things should be done.
The conflict certainly hurts people who want to make System V init work. But I don't want to believe it is the only reason for it so I'm asking whether it does really help someone.
As I said, we will drop sysvinit-init, so you can revive it under any name you want - not conflicting with aaa_base. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
At Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:42:32 +0100, Michal Kubeček wrote:
On Thursday 24 of January 2013 09:57EN, Stephan Kulow wrote:
And some others wanted to setup a project that makes 12.3 work with sysvinit again
I'm just starting with it as I feel I have to at least try before I start to look for a new distribution of choice. However, such task is going to be hard even without deliberate sticks on the path like this.
FYI, I already have a repo for keeping sysvinit alive. Check OBS home:tiwai:sysvinit project. It's far from perfect, but my machine still boots fine after upgrading to FACTORY. Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 1/24/2013 3:57 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 24.01.2013 09:53, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
OK - as I said the history of aaa_base look excactly like a drop of sysvinit support. But I (and Michal Kubecek probably too) have expected an announcenment (and unfortunatelly followed by needed flamewar) on factory ML.
Oh, there was a big flame war about dropping sysvinit and I bet 90% of the people did not read the last 10% - and in that 10% I said it's a good proposal :)
And some others wanted to setup a project that makes 12.3 work with sysvinit again - and I'm waiting for that, but complaining that others are not doing it is much easier.
Anyone can say that. "Ignoring user complaints of breaking backwards compatibility is much easier than figuring out ways to avoid breakage and adhere to principle of least surprise." That was easy. Rather than be insulted and disregarded I'm just using 11.4 and 12.1 for now and weighing the pain of switching distros against the pain of staying, no big deal. Wouldn't be my first choice of how I'd want my users to feel about my product but hey if it works for you that's all that matters I guess. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 26.01.2013 14:43, Brian K. White wrote:
Wouldn't be my first choice of how I'd want my users to feel about my product but hey if it works for you that's all that matters I guess.
Thanks for understanding. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Le jeudi 24 janvier 2013 à 09:53 +0100, Michal Vyskocil a écrit :
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 09:44:55AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 24.01.2013 09:39, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 08:58:24AM +0100, Michal Kubeček wrote:
Hello,
yesterday I installed 12.3 Beta 1 and I was quite surprised that when I attempted to install sysvinit-init, zypper told me it would have to uninstall almost everything. Quick investigation led me to line
Conflicts: sysvinit-init
in aaa_base.spec. I tried to think of the reason for this but I couldn't
Yeah, osc blame would be nice to have ...
Anyway osc cat and grep pointed me to revision 403 https://build.opensuse.org/package/rdiff?linkrev=base&package=aaa_base&project=Base%3ASystem&rev=403
which seems to be a pretty intentional change, but as sysvinit was not dropped from Factory, it is really surprissing. Because all other systemd related changes in aaa_base look like removing a support for sysvinit target ...
The drop of sysvinit-init is on the agenda for 12.3 - but the sysvinit package has tools we still need, so it's more than a drop.
OK - as I said the history of aaa_base look excactly like a drop of sysvinit support. But I (and Michal Kubecek probably too) have expected an announcenment (and unfortunatelly followed by needed flamewar) on factory ML.
There was, in September ;)
--
Frederic Crozat
participants (6)
-
Brian K. White
-
Frederic Crozat
-
Michal Kubeček
-
Michal Vyskocil
-
Stephan Kulow
-
Takashi Iwai