If it's on the interweb, it "exists" . . . forever. https://9to5linux.com/opensuse-leap-16-confirmed-will-be-based-on-suses-new-... So, OK, it's "leap" in the way that SR is "Tumbleweed" ??? . . . well, a "Leap" by any other name is still "Leap"???

"The only thing is that it was promised that you could upgrade from leap 15 to 16." Well, if that is the only thing promised, that is still somewhat helpful . . . or perhaps less time consuming than running a fresh install of it . . . .

On 1/15/24 18:02, Charlie Chan via openSUSE Factory wrote:

From the announcement, in case I misread it Leap 16 will be ALP based, so yes, Leap 16 is just Leap in name only but technically it will be apart from its predecessor

But that begs the question, what will 16 be like for admins and users? I've been administering SuSE releases, and now openSUSE, for a couple dozen scientists and engineers since 1998.  Uses include servers for Subversion, GitLab, xTuple, OpenProject and Samba.  Locally developed code for signal processing is written in C and Python.  Code for embedded systems is also cross-compiled.  Aggregate disk space exceeds one Petabyte, and  connections to remote "clouds" are disallowed by policy. Will the anticipated upgrade from 15 to 16 support these use cases? Or, should we start looking for alternatives now?  I really want to stay with openSUSE if at all possible, but I have a responsibility to my users to maintain continuity of operations going forward.  Is it time for (shudder) RHEL or a BSD?  BTW, before 1998 we used Sun Solaris and SunOS starting in 1986. Regards, Lew

On 1/15/24 19:26, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Will the anticipated upgrade from 15 to 16 support these use cases? Or, should we start looking for alternatives now?  I really want to stay with openSUSE if at all possible, but I have a responsibility to my users to maintain continuity of operations going forward.  Is it time for (shudder) RHEL or a BSD?  BTW, before 1998 we used Sun Solaris and SunOS starting in 1986.

ALP as it sits now is very different to ALP as it was first announced, alongside the read only transactional MicroOS style distro's that will be built from ALP, the successor to SLES 15 will also be built from ALP which is what Leap 16 will be built from.

So containers won't be necessary, in many cases Upgrades from Leap 15 will be supported and you should expect an experience that's much closer to Leap 15 then that of MicroOS, although it won't be completely the same

I know it's too soon to say, but are there guesses for how it will be different? BTW, our users use KDE., Thunderbird, and SmartCards. Regards, Lew

On 1/16/24 14:43, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 1/15/24 20:03, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 1/15/24 19:26, Simon Lees wrote:

...

...

Will the anticipated upgrade from 15 to 16 support these use cases? Or, should we start looking for alternatives now?  I really want to stay with openSUSE if at all possible, but I have a responsibility to my users to maintain continuity of operations going forward.  Is it time for (shudder) RHEL or a BSD?  BTW, before 1998 we used Sun Solaris and SunOS starting in 1986.

ALP as it sits now is very different to ALP as it was first announced, alongside the read only transactional MicroOS style distro's that will be built from ALP, the successor to SLES 15 will also be built from ALP which is what Leap 16 will be built from.

So containers won't be necessary, in many cases Upgrades from Leap 15 will be supported and you should expect an experience that's much closer to Leap 15 then that of MicroOS, although it won't be completely the same

I know it's too soon to say, but are there guesses for how it will be different? BTW, our users use KDE., Thunderbird, and SmartCards.

I forgot to mention that we also use X11 display forwarding for remote displays. As I understand things, Wayland didn't support this, does it now? Will X11 be in 16?

I have a version of X11 building on top of the ALP code base and my plan is to submit it to 16, I also still have several usecases for it. From my research I haven't found a reason why it would be any harder to put KDE on top of Leap 16 then it is for Leap 15 (some decisions around lifecycle might actually make it easier). But at the end of the day that will be up to the KDE team. Similarly Thunderbird will be up to its current maintainer, but as a worst case you'd need to move to the flatpack if the maintainer decided it was too much effort. This announcement is new and much of the codebase isn't even there on the SUSE ALP side yet so its still somewhat hard for maintainers to gauge the amount of effort they will need to put in. Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Eric Schirra writes:

Am 16. Januar 2024 09:30:25 MEZ schrieb Simon Lees :

...

On 1/16/24 14:43, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 1/15/24 20:03, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 1/15/24 19:26, Simon Lees wrote:

...

...

Will the anticipated upgrade from 15 to 16 support these use cases? Or, should we start looking for alternatives now?  I really want to stay with openSUSE if at all possible, but I have a responsibility to my users to maintain continuity of operations going forward.  Is it time for (shudder) RHEL or a BSD?  BTW, before 1998 we used Sun Solaris and SunOS starting in 1986.

ALP as it sits now is very different to ALP as it was first announced, alongside the read only transactional MicroOS style distro's that will be built from ALP, the successor to SLES 15 will also be built from ALP which is what Leap 16 will be built from.

So containers won't be necessary, in many cases Upgrades from Leap 15 will be supported and you should expect an experience that's much closer to Leap 15 then that of MicroOS, although it won't be completely the same

I know it's too soon to say, but are there guesses for how it will be different? BTW, our users use KDE., Thunderbird, and SmartCards.

I forgot to mention that we also use X11 display forwarding for remote displays. As I understand things, Wayland didn't support this, does it now? Will X11 be in 16?

I have a version of X11 building on top of the ALP code base and my plan is to submit it to 16, I also still have several usecases for it. From my research I haven't found a reason why it would be any harder to put KDE on top of Leap 16 then it is for Leap 15 (some decisions around lifecycle might actually make it easier). But at the end of the day that will be up to the KDE team.

Similarly Thunderbird will be up to its current maintainer, but as a worst case you'd need to move to the flatpack if the maintainer decided it was too much effort. This announcement is new and much of the codebase isn't even there on the SUSE ALP side yet so its still somewhat hard for maintainers to gauge the amount of effort they will need to put in.

So it does. Even Suse people have use cases that don't work with Alp. First reason not to use Leap anymore. No more KDE under Leap. Second reason not to be able to use Leap anymore. No Thunderbird or Firefox under Leap. Only via flatpack? Third reason for no longer being able to use Leap. Has anyone ever thought about how to install different software (Thunderbird or Firefox etc.) if you are in an internal company network so that you cannot access the Internet? How can LeapAlp be used sensibly?

This is all pure speculation. SLE 16 is still under development with many cornerstones still not being fully defined. There will most certainly be a Firefox in it (it is currently in the ALP codestream) and there might be a KDE in it, if someone sends it there from Factory. This is all not different from the way the current Leap works (or doesn't work, depending on how you see it). Please, let's not freak out over rumors. Leap 16 will probably come and it will probably be very similar to what you are used to. You might have to use a flatpak or two, but I have not yet given up hope that we'll be able to build these on OBS. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstr. 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany www.suse.com Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew McDonald, Werner Knoblich (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)

Lew Wolfgang writes:

On 1/16/24 07:39, Dan Čermák via openSUSE Factory wrote:

...

Eric Schirra writes:

...

Am 16. Januar 2024 09:30:25 MEZ schrieb Simon Lees:

...

On 1/16/24 14:43, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 1/15/24 20:03, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 1/15/24 19:26, Simon Lees wrote: >> Will the anticipated upgrade from 15 to 16 support these use cases? Or, >> should we start looking for alternatives now?  I really want to stay with >> openSUSE if at all possible, but I have a responsibility to my users to >> maintain continuity of operations going forward.  Is it time for (shudder) >> RHEL or a BSD?  BTW, before 1998 we used Sun Solaris and SunOS >> starting in 1986. > > ALP as it sits now is very different to ALP as it was first announced, alongside the read only transactional MicroOS style distro's that will be built from ALP, the successor to SLES 15 will also be built from ALP which is what Leap 16 will be built from. > > So containers won't be necessary, in many cases Upgrades from Leap 15 will be supported and you should expect an experience that's much closer to Leap 15 then that of MicroOS, although it won't be completely the same I know it's too soon to say, but are there guesses for how it will be different? BTW, our users use KDE., Thunderbird, and SmartCards. I forgot to mention that we also use X11 display forwarding for remote displays. As I understand things, Wayland didn't support this, does it now? Will X11 be in 16? I have a version of X11 building on top of the ALP code base and my plan is to submit it to 16, I also still have several usecases for it. From my research I haven't found a reason why it would be any harder to put KDE on top of Leap 16 then it is for Leap 15 (some decisions around lifecycle might actually make it easier). But at the end of the day that will be up to the KDE team.

Similarly Thunderbird will be up to its current maintainer, but as a worst case you'd need to move to the flatpack if the maintainer decided it was too much effort. This announcement is new and much of the codebase isn't even there on the SUSE ALP side yet so its still somewhat hard for maintainers to gauge the amount of effort they will need to put in.

So it does. Even Suse people have use cases that don't work with Alp. First reason not to use Leap anymore. No more KDE under Leap. Second reason not to be able to use Leap anymore. No Thunderbird or Firefox under Leap. Only via flatpack? Third reason for no longer being able to use Leap. Has anyone ever thought about how to install different software (Thunderbird or Firefox etc.) if you are in an internal company network so that you cannot access the Internet? How can LeapAlp be used sensibly? This is all pure speculation. SLE 16 is still under development with many cornerstones still not being fully defined. There will most certainly be a Firefox in it (it is currently in the ALP codestream) and there might be a KDE in it, if someone sends it there from Factory. This is all not different from the way the current Leap works (or doesn't work, depending on how you see it).

Please, let's not freak out over rumors. Leap 16 will probably come and it will probably be very similar to what you are used to.

You might have to use a flatpak or two, but I have not yet given up hope that we'll be able to build these on OBS.

Thanks to everyone who's chimed in on this.  My take at this point is that Leap 16 "may" be an acceptable successor to 15, but that it might not, especially in a business environment.

Please do note that Leap 16 will be based on SLE 16, a commercially supported distribution for the enterprise and business environment. Hence, I doubt that Leap 16 will be unsuitable in a business context.

Given my situation it's prudent to hope for the best, but to prepare for the worst.  Looking for an acceptable replacement for 15 now makes good business sense.  I assume that 15 and 16 will be out simultaneously and give us time to test 16 for suitability, but also have time to jump ship if necessary.  Note that my customer absolutely requires a actively maintained operating system, so skating along on the last version of 15 after EOL is not an option.

If your business relies on Leap 15, then there is a very, very clear path forward: buy a SLES license. The upgrade from Leap to SLE works in place and you will receive support for a very long time [1]. Plus there will probably be a supported upgrade path to SLE 16. I definitely understand all your fears as an end user, because at the moment very little is clear. But as a business you can be assured that SUSE has a very high interest to keep you as a happy SLES user. Footnotes: [1] https://www.suse.com/lifecycle#suse-linux-enterprise-server-15 SLES 15 SP7 EOL is 2028, with the option to pay for LTSS, which is until 2031(!) -- Dan Čermák Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstr. 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany www.suse.com Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew McDonald, Werner Knoblich (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 11:14 PM Lew Wolfgang wrote:

I forgot to mention that we also use X11 display forwarding for remote displays. As I understand things, Wayland didn't support this, does it now? Will X11 be in 16?

Since you use KDE Plasma, you can use either RDP or VNC for Wayland remote displays with what's built-in for KDE Plasma with KRdp or Krfb, respectively. Beyond that, you can install any remote desktop management system that speaks to the RemoteDesktop portal[1], such as RustDesk, TeamViewer, etc. For those using GNOME, GNOME Remote Desktop offers the same capability too. Application forwarding works through waypipe[2]. You can use it like so: "waypipe ssh <user>@<host>". [1]: https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/docs/doc-org.freedesktop.portal... [2]: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

Let's change that -> https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/113921

Waypipe does not exist on Leap.

This still is too unclear. Can a current Leap user upgrade to Leap 16 and continue to use it without having to worry about dealing with any of the immutable setup? What happened to Slowroll? Is that still going to be a thing? If we cannot continue to use Leap without having to worry about an immutable setup and Slowroll is not going to be a thing, I will be highly disappointed in openSUSE and will not be able to continue to recommend anything other than Tumbleweed.

Am 16. Januar 2024 04:26:36 MEZ schrieb Simon Lees :

Hi All,

To Help make it clear to everyone i'm quoting two replies from two different people.

On 1/16/24 04:46, Eric Schirra wrote:

...

hello Fritz

Well. The whole thing is window dressing. For whatever reason. If I've understood correctly, Leap 16 is based on ALP. So it has nothing to do with the current Leap.

On 1/16/24 13:28, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 1/15/24 18:02, Charlie Chan via openSUSE Factory wrote:

...

From the announcement, in case I misread it Leap 16 will be ALP based, so yes, Leap 16 is just Leap in name only but technically it will be apart from its predecessor

But that begs the question, what will 16 be like for admins and users?

I've been administering SuSE releases, and now openSUSE, for a couple dozen scientists and engineers since 1998.  Uses include servers for Subversion, GitLab, xTuple, OpenProject and Samba.  Locally developed code for signal processing is written in C and Python.  Code for embedded systems is also cross-compiled.  Aggregate disk space exceeds one Petabyte, and  connections to remote "clouds" are disallowed by policy.

Will the anticipated upgrade from 15 to 16 support these use cases? Or, should we start looking for alternatives now?  I really want to stay with openSUSE if at all possible, but I have a responsibility to my users to maintain continuity of operations going forward.  Is it time for (shudder) RHEL or a BSD?  BTW, before 1998 we used Sun Solaris and SunOS starting in 1986.

ALP as it sits now is very different to ALP as it was first announced, alongside the read only transactional MicroOS style distro's that will be built from ALP, the successor to SLES 15 will also be built from ALP which is what Leap 16 will be built from.

So containers won't be necessary, in many cases Upgrades from Leap 15 will be supported and you should expect an experience that's much closer to Leap 15 then that of MicroOS, although it won't be completely the same

Sorry, that's a total mess. ALP. But it's not. Or not completely. Only partly. No containers like Alp. But flatpack? Or not that either? Who can still see through that? Who can plan reliably and seriously? Regards Eric