On 28.11.2011 13:10, jdd wrote:

Network manager being changed for one more buggy one month ago (and I know why and again don't blame anybody), last thunderbird having problem reading news are just some that didn't happen just one month in the past.

Don't you think we have to plan this ahead?

Well, Thunderbird got an update (7.0.1 -> 8.0) and Thunderbird 9 Beta is also available through OBS. The same for Firefox, so I guess there won´t be any problems with Mozilla-products.* Anyway, your request to shift back the freeze limit is a good idea since OBS and Tumbleweed offer the latest software. kind regards, --kdl * Of course, this won´t be the case at any time, maybe Thunderbird Beta will be buggy in 10 or 11, but for now, 9 works out fine, apart from some language add-on problems. But I´m running it in English anyway, so no complaining from me ;-) -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 07:31:16PM +0100, jdd wrote:

Le 28/11/2011 19:26, Kim Leyendecker a écrit : [ 8< ]

...

Anyway, your request to shift back the freeze limit is a good idea since OBS and Tumbleweed offer the latest software.

it's the idea

I don't believe that's the way it will work with developers. At least for Samba we try hard to provide a current and also stable code base to openSUSE. To minimize the extra work we try to reuse or share as many Samba code bases as possible with the SUSE Linux Enterprise products. When the merge window or the freeze date gets more limited the users will at the end suffer from getting an older, less up to date version. Therefore a -1 from my side. Thanks. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 08:48:34PM +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote: [ 8< ] full quote deleted

I´m wrong, but wouldn´t it make much more sense for apps like Samba or Apache to shift back the freeze limit just to get more testing time.

Of course you're. Samba doesn't care about openSUSE schedules (very much). As kernel.org doesn't, as Apache doesn't. It's not the tail which wags the dog. ;) Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

Le 28/11/2011 20:47, Lars Müller a écrit :

Of course you're. Samba doesn't care about openSUSE schedules (very much). As kernel.org doesn't, as Apache doesn't.

It's not the tail which wags the dog. ;)

and? do you think the last version is always the better? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:48 AM, "Stephan Kulow" wrote:

On 28.11.2011 22:29, jdd wrote:

...

Le 28/11/2011 20:47, Lars Müller a écrit :

...

Of course you're. Samba doesn't care about openSUSE schedules (very much). As kernel.org doesn't, as Apache doesn't.

It's not the tail which wags the dog. ;)

and?

do you think the last version is always the better?

How else do you interpret the regular "can we shift back for KDE X.Y.Z?" thread or the general hype around tumbleweed?

And "testing time" is only an argument if you have developers fixing things. We mostly have packagers who reply "that bug is possibly fixed in latest version".

I'm new to trying to help out by testing, but from my impressions this comment is spot on. All the bugs I reported in the 12.1 beta/RC phases seemed to be fixed in the 'next version', usually the version that came with the next RC. My impression is that there are very few people in the Opensuse project working on writing code to fix bugs in packages, the bulk of the work making packages and updating packages. This makes perfect sense, Opensuse is a distribution so its main work is packaging the results of upstream projects where the coding work is done. So if anything I'd say relax the version freeze times a little bit, let the newest stuff we can into each release (within reason and without reducing testing time down to nothing of course). Tim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 28.11.2011 19:31, jdd wrote:

Le 28/11/2011 19:26, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :

...

Well, Thunderbird got an update (7.0.1 -> 8.0)

zypper up says "nothing to do" and I still have th 7.0.1 (with the news bug already reported)

Oh yes, I´m sorry. For Thunderbird 8.0 I used the following: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/mozilla/openSUSE_12.1/ thanks, -- -o) Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Community Member /\\ GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le 28/11/2011 23:15, Larry Finger a écrit :

I have Thunderbird 8.0 with the following repos enabled:

probably a repo or upadte delay. I have moved sibnce my last post (I spend half of my time in a location, half in an other with different computers) and I see just now doing a zypper up that moz 8 is loading. thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 21:40 +0100, Markus Slopianka wrote:

On Montag 28 November 2011 11:17:19 jdd wrote:

...

So I think we should take feature/distro freeze (I'm not sure of what is what) a month earlier, to get a month more to test and debug.

Sorry, it was recently decided that openSUSE packages no longer need any freeze or testing period. Any new major update can just be shipped as regular update without being tested. I find that weird but even SUSE Linux people were in favor of it.

Can you please point to a text where it was said that updates can be pushed without being tested? That is clearly not in line with what the maintenance team wants to accept in the :Update channels. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Montag 28 November 2011 21:49:45 Nelson Marques wrote:

I think it was plain irony... Maybe because of a previous Chromium thread...

No, it wasn't irony. My complaint that untested packages do not belong into stable openSUSE repos was voted down and it was decided that no testing or anything was necessary and that each packager decides on his own what to push as update. That means that version freezes no longer apply. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/28/2011 4:13 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

2011/11/28 Markus Slopianka:

...

On Montag 28 November 2011 21:49:45 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

I think it was plain irony... Maybe because of a previous Chromium thread...

No, it wasn't irony. My complaint that untested packages do not belong into stable openSUSE repos was voted down and it was decided that no testing or anything was necessary and that each packager decides on his own what to push as update.

O_o

Holy crap really? Amazing. And here I usually feel a little bad after ranting about the way *suse has turned in recent years and months. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Montag 28 November 2011 22:34:06 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Anyway, could you please add a link? I still can´t believe it.... Really, that´s just bullshit.

My original complaint was a formal bug report regarding that openSUSE ships some untested snapshot of alpha-quality Chromium as part of the standard repository: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=731832 Then Raymond brought that issue to the Project mailing list (not Factory, btw): http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-11/msg00144.html In that mail he also writes that the "current procedure" is a "weekly update" (= a new untested snapshot every week as regular update). Nelson, who called my mail in this thread irony, then told me I should rather be grateful that Chromium is packaged at all than trying to point out to the packaging rules: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-11/msg00148.html SUSE Linux Products GmbH employees also wrote that shipping untested snapshots is absolutely fine. İsmail Dönmez for example: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-11/msg00155.html My favourite reaction of a SUSE employee was the one from Pavol Rusnak who wrote that if one wants a rock-solid package, depending on openSUSE is wrong anyway and that the person should get official Google Chrome from a 3rd party (Google in this case): http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-11/msg00159.html Other non-SUSE community members also agreed with Raymond that shipping weekly untested snapshots is fine with only myself and Stephan Kulow (in a bug report comment) preferring tested build. So effectively the policy of freezes and quality assurance was overthrown because 'Chromium is shiny' or whatever the proponents of untested weekly snapshots thought... Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2011/11/28 Greg Freemyer :

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Markus Slopianka wrote:

...

On Montag 28 November 2011 22:34:06 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Anyway, could you please add a link? I still can´t believe it.... Really, that´s just bullshit.

My original complaint was a formal bug report regarding that openSUSE ships some untested snapshot of alpha-quality Chromium as part of the standard repository: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=731832

I admit surprise.

I thought that bugzilla / thread related to the devel project, not to the 12.1 update repo.

As I read the bugzilla now, it seems to talk about both, but without a clear distinction.

Historically, I have seen alpha/beta products included in the gold master, with the explicit plan to release stable updates once they become available.

If that is the plan for Chromium, it seems okay, but not great.

Greg and all, Please consider the following: * If you install Chromium, then you know it's something which works like a development project for Chrome. Chromium web page sugests that it works a bit like a development project for Chrome. It provides technical data to: "(...) to help you learn to build and work with the Chromium source code." Chrome is supposed to be the stable product, not Chromium. So if you choose to install Chromium, you know it's a product that is always under heavy development. You probably want a bit of bleeding edge... Else you stay with Chrome (which is the stable product). From this perspective, is really Chromium package so bad? It's not trust me. Else just install it and use it for a week or two and then ask yourself if we really should wipe this package for openSUSE or just embrace it.

If the plan is distribute latest and greatest release from google via the 12.1 update channel, then I don't much care for that leads.

You can have both, and users wanting the bleeding edge "Chromium" or the stable product, Chrome can make the call. It does sound like an excellent way to me.

We have Tumbleweed for that, but even then packages should be declared tested and stable before they are pushed to Tumbleweed.

I think Greg can speak for himself, and I'm sure he has his reasons. Whatever he decides is nice. Also my congratulations to Tumbleweed which is probably the most visible brand under the openSUSE umbrella outside the openSUSE inner circles. Regarding Chromium, I think a few people can probably help Raymond improving the package, go for it. This is really a package which would be nice to keep and have around :) Like I said before, I would be crazy enough to support it for default browser. NM

Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so   nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2011/11/28 Markus Slopianka :

On Montag 28 November 2011 22:34:06 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Anyway, could you please add a link? I still can´t believe it.... Really, that´s just bullshit.

My original complaint was a formal bug report regarding that openSUSE ships some untested snapshot of alpha-quality Chromium as part of the standard repository: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=731832

Markus, I've installed Chromium during that thread. I've made a bug report which ended up being a false positive meanwhile, and it was stetics. Other than that, it's been working perfectly (I do use Adobe blob for flash player). Raymond's work just wiped out Chrome from my machine. I'm just crazy enough for even supporting Chromium becoming the default browser, as it would be nice if someone with some extra time could help him in improvng quality. To me, it's a plus. This is my stance towards chromium.

Then Raymond brought that issue to the Project mailing list (not Factory, btw): http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-11/msg00144.html In that mail he also writes that the "current procedure" is a "weekly update" (= a new untested snapshot every week as regular update).

Another thing... In the past Raymond was having his day on the contrib repository. First of all, it's somehow historic to me because the first package I've published on openSUSE was on contrib. But I always shared the opinion of others that it should be in Factory. I'm happy someone took some time to plan a merge of contrib to factory. It's good for users also as many interesting packages were being maintained there, a few examples: * Chromium; * Nearly a lot of language translation tools maintained by a Brazilian contributor. It's a shame tools like Virtaal had to leave in a less visible repository. * gtk-RecordMyDesktop - somehow interesting. * etc. Ok, this might be an incovenient to some users... but come on... if you don't like it, don't install it, or if you can help the people maintaining it for mutual profit. So yeah, I think it's disrepectful that such an assault is lead to someone who places a lot of time in a package that isn't really an easy one.

Nelson, who called my mail in this thread irony, then told me I should rather be grateful that Chromium is packaged at all than trying to point out to the packaging rules: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-11/msg00148.html

I didn't meant to make it sound personal, it's maybe related to how I see things. Irony is just a state of mind sometimes, it's not necessarily a bad thing. My apologies. Regarding the pakaging rules, I'd rather see it used as guidance to encourage for better contributions than as a "ban hammer". Many people are overrun with work, lets at least a give a real chance for those who are putting some work, and the way as I see it is to go pedagical on them and not just waving the sacred codex which scares people away...

SUSE Linux Products GmbH employees also wrote that shipping untested snapshots is absolutely fine. İsmail Dönmez for example: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-11/msg00155.html

This is somehow political to me, so I'll just be plain: I'm happy that there are lots of SUSE employees around, and I'm pretty sure all of them go far beyond the 'suse employee'. It's a big strength of the project and what keeps it moving...

My favourite reaction of a SUSE employee was the one from Pavol Rusnak who wrote that if one wants a rock-solid package, depending on openSUSE is wrong anyway and that the person should get official Google Chrome from a 3rd party (Google in this case): http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-11/msg00159.html

I couldn't agree more. I'd rather loose 100 pissed off users than an active contributor on a package that is somehow complicated. I did used a lot Chromium while I was playing around with Ubuntu GTK+ menu proxies :). I even helped fixing a bug where the icons were not being correctly displayed on task bars. I've installed it from 12.1 repositories, and it has not given any problems to me... In fact I'm using it to write this email. Other users might have some problems, they can always switch back to Chrome (more stable?). The real loss would be to kill Raymonds (or any other contributor) joy in working the package. For all the rest of us, instead of waving the Ban Hammer, lets just maybe help improving the package and maybe helping Raymond to test it better and submit bug reports. If you look carefully at bugzilla, not many people submiting them and those who are filed are somehow looked after. Sorry to ear it's not working for you, but it's for some of us.

Other non-SUSE community members also agreed with Raymond that shipping weekly untested snapshots is fine with only myself and Stephan Kulow (in a bug report comment) preferring tested build.

If he's willing to change it, sure. If anyone can help him improve, that would be just lovely :)

So effectively the policy of freezes and quality assurance was overthrown because 'Chromium is shiny' or whatever the proponents of untested weekly snapshots thought...

That's the problem... I don't know how you measure quality, but through the eyes of a marketeer in a simple way: Quality = Satisfaction > Expectation If we are not part of the solution, then we are part of the problem. The math is quite simple.

Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so   nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le 28/11/2011 22:02, Markus Slopianka a écrit :

On Montag 28 November 2011 21:49:45 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

I think it was plain irony... Maybe because of a previous Chromium thread...

No, it wasn't irony. My complaint that untested packages do not belong into stable openSUSE repos was voted down and it was decided that no testing or anything was necessary and that each packager decides on his own what to push as update. That means that version freezes no longer apply.

that's the way tumbleweed work, but plainn openSUSE? What would be the goial of tumbleweed, then?? that said I wrote in the first post that if there is a better way to have a more stable distro, it's good for me. But it's the first time I see that many problems during the very end of the period (between OSC and release), so I think we have to think of a solution for the next one jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger [11-28-11 15:47]:

On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 21:40 +0100, Markus Slopianka wrote:

...

On Montag 28 November 2011 11:17:19 jdd wrote:

...

So I think we should take feature/distro freeze (I'm not sure of what is what) a month earlier, to get a month more to test and debug.

Sorry, it was recently decided that openSUSE packages no longer need any freeze or testing period. Any new major update can just be shipped as regular update without being tested. I find that weird but even SUSE Linux people were in favor of it.

Can you please point to a text where it was said that updates can be pushed without being tested? That is clearly not in line with what the maintenance team wants to accept in the :Update channels.

Nor the scheduled beta and rc packages..... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 29 November 2011 07:30, Vincent Untz wrote:

FWIW, my experience with 12.1 is that we get a lot of reports in RC1 and RC2, most of which would also have been reportable much earlier.

jdd gave the perfect example... He "couldn't even install kdenlive" even if it is a "very important package". An easy bug to spot, true? Well, the problem was that it required the licenses package... that was dropped in March (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-commit/2011-03/msg00722.html). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/29/2011 03:52 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

... And I don't think calling the latest Milestone "Beta" changed anything here. But if someone has data, I'm open to get convinced.

Not that I want to revert the naming, I just think the whole stunt proved me right :)

Coolo, I am afraid you are right. There are just too many people that seem not to understand what "Community" means. Not only do they refuse to test until GM or at best RC2, they flood the forums with complaints, and many refuse to file a bug report because "it does no good". As usual, I started running 12.1 in production when MS4 was released. For me, everything worked by GM, with the exception of systemd on 1 of 4 systems, and some very rare corner cases that are still being investigated. For me, it was a solid release, and I congratulate all that were involved. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 29 November 2011 16:49, jdd wrote:

Most of the things worked nice since September (surprisingly well, I have to say)

then, suddenly, the last month, several things stopped working. Many of my bugs are still "new".

Links PLEASE!

There are general problems (why does desktop kernel do not give me the full video resolution when default kernel does? for example) that looks like packaging problems, so could be fixed (may be it is now).

No idea, I lack information that I am sure you gave in the bug report.

Of course if it's an upstream problem (games can only be fixed upstream was one answer I got) it's much more difficult to report (but I do when I can, not always with success)

????

That said the most problem is Packman. One can't test packages early because there is simply no packman available initially, and after there are very few developpers there. I won't discuss this more here but on the packman list or on artwork/multimedia lists (hint: include less package but make them work)

All of the "Essentials" and "Multimedia" packages are ALWAYS built for Factory. RIGHT NOW they are available and 12.2 is still quite far: http://anorien.csc.warwick.ac.uk/mirrors/packman/suse/Factory/ Anyway I don't see a long list of bug reports in the Packman mailing list. And the reason I didn't fix most of them is because people is lazy and write in German... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* jdd [01-01-70 12:34]:

good news. I don't think it was the case 8 month ago. openshot, kdenlive work on 11.4 but not on 12.1 (but I had video to do and not yet time to report)

good news for you. Just installed kdenlive and recordmydesktop and opened kdenlive. Seemed to be functional. I didn't play with it long enough to do anything but it did install and did not crash. Or was that not the problem. fwiw, I cannot find a bug-report against kdenlive to determine the problem :^( another reason bug-reports are necessary/importang (tm!). -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le 29/11/2011 08:30, Vincent Untz a écrit :

FWIW, my experience with 12.1 is that we get a lot of reports in RC1 and RC2, most of which would also have been reportable much earlier.

my concern is having lot of problems with final that I didn't have at OSC with factory (probably beta, at the time). I agree the feature freeze don"t have to be engraved in stone without distinction. But, for example, network manager problems are really annoying. Just this week end, doing openSUSE shows, I had to trick the system to have a network! And the NM interface changed realld late, I don't know if this changed in the good direction for some other hardware (I hope so), but I'm not the only one that have problems jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org