On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 09:31 +0100, jdd wrote:

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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Joerg Mayer escribió:

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* Sat Aug 11 2007 aj@suse.de - Make separate spec file for PolicyKit-doc so that PolicyKit does not require TeX for building.

This is because TeX stuff is **huge**.

and use of TeX for man pages is incredible...

They use DocBook, wich pulls in deps: xmlto -> passivetex -> xmltex -> texlive The use of DocBook is very common and far from "incredible". Kay --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:00:31PM +0100, Michael Schroeder wrote:

But we don't need passivetex to generate man pages, so can't we just block the xmlto->passivetex dependency, i.e. add

#!BuildIgnore: passivetex

to the spec file?

That would be an approache that would be much more to my liking than the approach taken now. Ciao Joerg -- Joerg Mayer We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 27 December 2007, Kay Sievers wrote:

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This is because TeX stuff is **huge**. That's a very weird reason to put man pages into the -doc package, and not provide them with the main package, like everybody else is doing it.

I find it weird that you comment on the package as if you were a 3rd party person when in fact you are the maintainer of it ;) -- RPMLINT information under http://en.opensuse.org/Packaging/RpmLint --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Kay Sievers [2008-01-03 14:50]:

On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 13:58 +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:

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On Thursday 27 December 2007, Kay Sievers wrote:

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This is because TeX stuff is **huge**. That's a very weird reason to put man pages into the -doc package, and not provide them with the main package, like everybody else is doing it.

I find it weird that you comment on the package as if you were a 3rd party person when in fact you are the maintainer of it ;)

I didn't make the changes I comment on, and obviously disagree with. Nothing "weird" from my side I could recognize.

But as maintainer you have the ultimate power to change it back. :-) Thanks, Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 27 December 2007 07:22:13 pm Joerg Mayer wrote:

On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 06:29:36PM -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

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While it may in may cases be OK to not include additional documentation in the base package, the manpages need to stay there - no matter what that means for the build process.

So far I recall there was idea to remove documents from main package, to make base package and whole base distro slimmer, easier to put on CD, Live CD etc. The above excerpt is something new to me.

Removing manpages is a broken concept: They are needed to actually use the programs. Additional documentation may well be moved into another package, but not manpages. That's similar to removing the --help part from the binaries to make them smaller. ...

I can understand that, as I am heavy user of man pages, but there was a pressure to make distro smaller. What was behind wasn't explained, but the goal was set to 128 MB for the very base system and AJ email appeared to be very serious. BTW, for guys that know how to use man pages installation of extra package is a bit more work, but far from a problem ;-) -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 08:43:29PM -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

I can understand that, as I am heavy user of man pages, but there was a pressure to make distro smaller. What was behind wasn't explained, but the goal was set to 128 MB for the very base system and AJ email appeared to be very serious.

We are talking about <7kBytes here. The comment also indicates that it was done for build purposes. Again, the doc package is about 640kBytes in size - it's OK to split off most of it - but not the manpages.

BTW, for guys that know how to use man pages installation of extra package is a bit more work, but far from a problem ;-)

That's a different topic - also that PolicyKit-doc is missing from the standard selection is a different topic - what this thread is about is a thing that is just something I really want to prevent in the beginning. Ciao Joerg -- Joerg Mayer We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Freitag 28 Dezember 2007 schrieb Rajko M.:

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On Thursday 27 December 2007 07:22:13 pm Joerg Mayer wrote:

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On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 06:29:36PM -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

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While it may in may cases be OK to not include additional documentation in the base package, the manpages need to stay there - no matter what that means for the build process.

So far I recall there was idea to remove documents from main package, to make base package and whole base distro slimmer, easier to put on CD, Live CD etc. The above excerpt is something new to me.

Removing manpages is a broken concept: They are needed to actually use the programs. Additional documentation may well be moved into another package, but not manpages. That's similar to removing the --help part from the binaries to make them smaller.

...

I can understand that, as I am heavy user of man pages, but there was a pressure to make distro smaller. What was behind wasn't explained, but the goal was set to 128 MB for the very base system and AJ email appeared to be very serious.

This has nothing to do with that. The reason the docs are split out is that PolicyKit is a pretty basic package required by many other packages for building. And if such a basic package requires texlive to build, we have to wait even longer before we can push out a new Factory snapshot.

So we split these basic packages with big build dependencies into two source rpms. This does not stop anyone from adding a Recommend or even a Require to the base package - I would suggest a Recommend, because the man page is still only nice to have for people not wanting to use Policykit.

So just file a bug report.

Greetings, Stephan

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BTW, for guys that know how to use man pages installation of extra package is a bit more work, but far from a problem ;-)

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I think the reason for a 128 base package request might have something to do with KIWI, in order to support a Wyse terminal with the best local video,sound and app support is to have a network independent "thin client" it can boot,run an x session and possibly even authenticate the local root for updating and tweaking. therefor removing documentation from these "base" packages would be essential. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District 213 S. Main st Newmarket NH, 03857 603-659-3271 *318 CNE 3,4,5 MCSE w2k CLE in training Registered Linux user #440182 http://en.opensuse.org/Education Good things to read! http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 30, 2007 1:31 PM, Joerg Mayer wrote:

We are talking about 6 KBytes of manpages, not 640 KBytes of complete documentation. What use is it to have the programs if they are unusable due to missing manpages?

The program still works without the manpage present. How does it make it "unusable" It's like saying my car is unusable without an owner's manual... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Joerg Mayer escribió:

a) a car doesn't have several hundred small "tools"

of course it does, it has several hundred of small and big tools that makes it work.. -- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay wrote:

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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Joerg Mayer escribió:

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a) a car doesn't have several hundred small "tools"

of course it does, it has several hundred of small and big tools that makes it work..

I would have to agree, I spent only two years as auto mechanic after tech school and I have 10k$ worth of tools in a upright rolling toolbox that I cannot move on my own. I am also not equipped to deal with hundreds of auto repairs simply for the need of tools, not to mention the electronic diagnosis equipment.

P.S. not one of these tools comes with an on board manual, that is what training and research are for. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District 213 S. Main st Newmarket NH, 03857 603-659-3271 *318 CNE 3,4,5 MCSE w2k CLE in training Registered Linux user #440182 http://en.opensuse.org/Education Good things to read! http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:08:40PM -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

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P.S. not one of these tools comes with an on board manual, that is what training and research are for.

That's the right point James.

No, it isn't. Because the amount of training and *research* that is needed to use an OS should be minimal. While using the accelerator etc is basic training, trying to use the radio, navigation or speed regulation isn't intuitive and requires the manual. The same with a computer: You need to learn how to start/login to a system and use it (graphically, command line, voice, mental control). You shouldn't need training or research for all the tools individually. See below why manpages are not comparable to manuals. They normally don't explain the backgroundknowledge, just the features of the tool itself.

It is time to rethink about tradition to have manuals as a part of package.

Absolutely not. It seems you have some interesting notion of Unixish systems. To make this a bit more understandable: That's just like putting the online help in graphical applications into their own package. Manpages are the online help of command line applications. Also, they tend to be tiny when compared with the rest of the package.

I need manuals to learn how to use tools (I missed many lectures), but I know that I use very small portion of installed software. The rest is used by other guys in my "shop", those that created scripts, and they don't need manuals.

Only very very few people - if any - know the meaning of all the command line options of all the tools they *use*. They use a combination of manpages and --help instead.

So, what would be the best option if I want to have small, slick collection of software, but manuals available if want them. I guess separate collection of manuals, and package manager that will install them on request.

And the day Suse does this, I will switch distribution because the mentality of the distribution no longer matches mine. So far one of the big strengths of Suse was that it is equally usable for newbies, users and powerusers. Ciao Joerg -- Joerg Mayer We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Joerg Mayer writes:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 03:26:57PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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This has nothing to do with that. The reason the docs are split out is that PolicyKit is a pretty basic package required by many other packages for building. And if such a basic package requires texlive to build, we have to wait even longer before we can push out a new Factory snapshot. So we split these basic packages with big build dependencies into two source rpms.

Sure, but then - that's life. But if you think it that essential/unstable - maybe the manpages should be created differently?

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This does not stop anyone from adding a Recommend or even a Require to the base package - I would suggest a Recommend, because the man page is still only nice to have for people not wanting to use Policykit.

I strongly disagree: It's the wrong thing to do: The manpages need to be packaged with the application. And if that can't be done, then see the comment above. Removing the manpages is really really wrong (I may have said that already but that's how I feel :-) and removing them from the base package due to *build* reasons is no excuse - really: a) the texlive should not be broken over longer periods of time anyway.

It has nothing to do with broken builds. It generates build cycles and takes a long time when we bootstrap. texlive has a lot of dependencies including packages that require PolicyKit - and you need texlive to build PolicyKit.

b) maybe adding pregenerated manpages to the source package would be an acceptable solution to the problem, so a broken tex package could be worked around in the build process by copying the pregenerated stuff.

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So just file a bug report.

To what extent? That the need to be added back or that a require/recommend should be added - and if the latter one: where?

A bug that the main PolicyKit package should recommend the package with the man pages, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform/openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126