Hi Roger, On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 12:08:35 +0200 (CEST) Roger Price wrote:

Could tracker _not_ be included with Xfce installations?

+1 I think the tracker support can be move to a brasero-tracker sub-package. If not, we should remove brasero from the Xfce Desktop Environment pattern altogether. Best regards, Christoph -- Christoph Wickert Technical Writer SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0; Fax: +49-911-7417755; https://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg)

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 15:58 +0200, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

  And maybe tracker should not be autostarted in other desktops than GNOME at  all.

And then people come complain that GNOME Photos, GNOME Music et.al do not show content when running outside of the GNOME session

E.g. if you happen to have tracker installed and login to KDE, tracker is  running as well in addition to KDE's file indexer (baloo). So your files get  indexed twice without any apparent benefit.

Except if you run GNOME integrated apps on your KDE Session - otherwise you should not install tracker

Though I just had a look and tracker has this in its autostart files: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;KDE;XFCE;X-MEEGO-HS;X-MEEGO-NB;X-IVI;Unity;

XFCE is explicitly mentioned there, and KDE as well (the latter I find  pointless anyway, I have no opinion on XFCE).

Maybe someone should file a bug report?

We can of course change the autostart - but then decline all future bugs for software depending on the indexer to find appropriate content...  Not sure if that's REALLY want we should be doing. Cheers, Dominique

Op woensdag 28 september 2016 15:58:25 CEST schreef Wolfgang Bauer:

Am Mittwoch, 28. September 2016, 12:19:27 schrieb Christoph Wickert:

...

Hi Roger,

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 12:08:35 +0200 (CEST)

Roger Price wrote:

...

Could tracker _not_ be included with Xfce installations?

+1

I think the tracker support can be move to a brasero-tracker sub-package. If not, we should remove brasero from the Xfce Desktop Environment pattern altogether.

And maybe tracker should not be autostarted in other desktops than GNOME at all.

E.g. if you happen to have tracker installed and login to KDE, tracker is running as well in addition to KDE's file indexer (baloo). So your files get indexed twice without any apparent benefit.

Though I just had a look and tracker has this in its autostart files: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;KDE;XFCE;X-MEEGO-HS;X-MEEGO-NB;X-IVI;Unity;

XFCE is explicitly mentioned there, and KDE as well (the latter I find pointless anyway, I have no opinion on XFCE).

Maybe someone should file a bug report?

Kind Regards, Wolfgang

If you, like me, run both GNOME and KDE changing the "OnlyShowIn" by removing "KDE;" is a good thing to do. My experience is that having tracker and baloo running at the same time makes KDE less responsive, to put it mildly. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 17:13 +0200, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

If you, like me, run both GNOME and KDE changing the "OnlyShowIn" by removing "KDE;" is a good thing to do. My experience is that having tracker and baloo running at the same time makes KDE less responsive, to put it mildly.

See my earlier mail - I don't think it's a great idea.

What is likely done to few is telling tracker of locations it should not scan (e.g large git trees or the lice). Simply putting an empty file .trackerignore is sufficient and it will not go there.

Tracker is by no means as heavy on the disk as people keep on yelling - it is not beagle

That has not been my experience at all. Occasionally tracker gets pulled in by packages that I wouldn't expect to need a full disk indexer (or that don't actually need on, but pull it in due to how tracker is packaged), and system responsiveness immediately goes out the window. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 11:39 -0400, Todd Rme wrote:

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

...

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 17:13 +0200, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

If you, like me, run both GNOME and KDE changing the "OnlyShowIn" by removing "KDE;" is a good thing to do. My experience is that having tracker and baloo running at the same time makes KDE less responsive, to put it mildly.

See my earlier mail - I don't think it's a great idea.

What is likely done to few is telling tracker of locations it should not scan (e.g large git trees or the lice). Simply putting an empty file .trackerignore is sufficient and it will not go there.

Tracker is by no means as heavy on the disk as people keep on yelling - it is not beagle

That has not been my experience at all.  Occasionally tracker gets pulled in by packages that I wouldn't expect to need a full disk indexer (or that don't actually need on, but pull it in due to how tracker is packaged), and system responsiveness immediately goes out the window.

somethings you might not expect link the tracker libraries - the tracker libraries recommend the presence of tracker (which makes sense I'd say - the libs main purpose is to talk to the tracker daemons) As with any recommended package it can be 'locked' for as long as you don't need stuff that really requires it's presence (and: tracker does no FULL DISK indexing! That's a stupid thing to do and is useless - it only indexes your home directory and anything you might have configured in plus) Still: people confuse this with how bad beagle was - there is no denying: beagle was bad and everybody is happy it is dead. Cheers, Dominique

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 17:41 +0200, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 28. September 2016, 16:39:29 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger /  DimStar:

...

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 15:58 +0200, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

...

And maybe tracker should not be autostarted in other desktops than GNOME at  all.

And then people come complain that GNOME Photos, GNOME Music et.al do not show content when running outside of the GNOME session

Ok.

But then there's one thing I don't understand: Why is the autostart restricted to *some* desktops (GNOME, KDE and XFCE in  particular, the rest probably doesn't matter in openSUSE)?

There are more desktops around.

That's actually an interesting question - why 'limit' it to some known desktops - I will certainly discuss this with upstream. Cheers, Dominique

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 17:57 +0200, Takashi Iwai wrote:

  Can we change it conditionally so that it'll be pulled only when tracker itself has been installed?

You mean for the lib no longer to recommend tracker itself - I think it would be feasible - the apps *the GNOME Team* maintains and that do require tracker to be present will still pull it in, so we should be good from that end. Still: XFCE (what started this thread) recommends tracker from its own pattern - this is still something someone would have to change. Cheers, Dominique

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 18:12 +0200, Takashi Iwai wrote:

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 18:05:10 +0200, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

...

  You mean for the lib no longer to recommend tracker itself - I think it would be feasible - the apps *the GNOME Team* maintains and that do require tracker to be present will still pull it in, so we should be good from that end.

Right, that's my expectation.

...

Still: XFCE (what started this thread) recommends tracker from its own pattern - this is still something someone would have to change.

Yes, we need to nail down one by one.

Request: #431132   submit:       GNOME:Next/tracker@127 -> GNOME:Factory Message: - Only suggest instead of recommend tracker by the various library   packages. They work fine without tracker being present and   actually doings its work. State:   review     2016-09-28T16:16:12 dimstar Comment: <no comment> Review:  new        Group: gnome- maintainers                                                                History: 2016-09-28T16:16:13 dimstar      Request created

On Wednesday 2016-09-28 16:39, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 15:58 +0200, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

...

  And maybe tracker should not be autostarted in other desktops than GNOME at  all.

And then people come complain that GNOME Photos, GNOME Music et.al do not show content when running outside of the GNOME session

So, why can't the developers make it start on-demand then, if it is _that_ essential? Desktop environments seem to be quite eager starting all kinds of background processes on other occassions… -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

on., 28.09.2016 kl. 19.54 +0200, skrev Jan Engelhardt: So, why can't the developers make it start on-demand then, if it is

_that_ essential? Desktop environments seem to be quite eager starting all kinds of background processes on other occassions…

Because starting indexing on demand would make everything way slower/cpu intensive vs having the index updated incrementally as files come and go. And even worse: when starting an app that relies on the index - the index won't be there. //Bjørn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Many thanks to all those who commented, despite my rant. I have filed bug report 1002454 https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1002454 which is narrowly focussed. It does not affect GNOME, KDE or other desktops. Roger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Carlos, On 1 October 2016 at 15:42, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2016-09-28 21:05, Bjørn Lie wrote:

...

on., 28.09.2016 kl. 19.54 +0200, skrev Jan Engelhardt: So, why can't the developers make it start on-demand then, if it is

...

_that_ essential? Desktop environments seem to be quite eager starting all kinds of background processes on other occassions…

Because starting indexing on demand would make everything way slower/cpu intensive vs having the index updated incrementally as files come and go.

And even worse: when starting an app that relies on the index - the index won't be there.

This is interesting. I thought that the only tool that used the index would be the search tool, when the user actively wants to search for some thing.

So you say that applications may use that index. What for? Perhaps, instead of doing a directory search for display on "open file" they use the index?

I'm just curious, wanting to learn things, not saying that it is wrong. I actually use and like the search tool in gnome, called from xfce. I don't notice slowdowns. I forgot that I also have tracker. I don't know how to call it.

I believe the logic used by the GNOME applications in question is that 'users do not care where their files of type BLAH are, they are loading an application to play Music/view photos/watch videos and they need to be shown their Music, Photos, and Videos, regardless of where they are. I believe this was also described as part of the KDE concept of the 'Semantic Desktop' Such an approach requires an index In fact, if you think of the large amounts of Music/Photos/Videos that people have these days, there is really no alternative BESIDES having an index of some type - there is no way in a million years you want your music app to parse through dozens and dozens of music folders for thousands and thousands of music files just to add the two new tracks that someone added later. It's WAY easier and more efficient to have an intelligent indexer like tracker keeping an eye on all directories of potential interest and incrementally updating a single, multi-use index as files change, than requiring half a dozen apps to maintain their own indexes.

It would be nice to have a single search engine used by both gnome and kde. IMHO :-)

I agree, and I think the strongest candidate for such a role would be tracker given it's relative lightweightness compared to the KDE indexers. But the whole KDE stack is so tightly coupled to their chosen indexer, I think we might have a hard time encouraging that kind of change. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2016-10-03 11:29, Richard Brown wrote:

Hi Carlos,

...

So you say that applications may use that index. What for? Perhaps, instead of doing a directory search for display on "open file" they use the index?

I'm just curious, wanting to learn things, not saying that it is wrong. I actually use and like the search tool in gnome, called from xfce. I don't notice slowdowns. I forgot that I also have tracker. I don't know how to call it.

I believe the logic used by the GNOME applications in question is that 'users do not care where their files of type BLAH are, they are loading an application to play Music/view photos/watch videos and they need to be shown their Music, Photos, and Videos, regardless of where they are.

I believe this was also described as part of the KDE concept of the 'Semantic Desktop'

Such an approach requires an index

In fact, if you think of the large amounts of Music/Photos/Videos that people have these days, there is really no alternative BESIDES having an index of some type - there is no way in a million years you want your music app to parse through dozens and dozens of music folders for thousands and thousands of music files just to add the two new tracks that someone added later.

I see. Perhaps we need a filesystem type that includes this information in a fast searchable manner, instead of having to create databases ;-)

It's WAY easier and more efficient to have an intelligent indexer like tracker keeping an eye on all directories of potential interest and incrementally updating a single, multi-use index as files change, than requiring half a dozen apps to maintain their own indexes.

Yes, true. I understand that tracker listens on (something?) to detect new files automatically, without searching for them.

...

It would be nice to have a single search engine used by both gnome and kde. IMHO :-)

I agree, and I think the strongest candidate for such a role would be tracker given it's relative lightweightness compared to the KDE indexers. But the whole KDE stack is so tightly coupled to their chosen indexer, I think we might have a hard time encouraging that kind of change.

I don't care which one is used, as long as it is only one and it works. Or create a new indexer built by both teams, so that it caters to the needs of both. An independent project. Let's hope :-) Anyway, I now understand why applications needs and indexer. Thanks. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On Mon, 2016-10-03 at 10:29 -0400, Ken Schneider wrote:

  Until they give up their pissing match it'll never change.

I'm glad we have you to convince the various upstreams to work nicely together and not investigate different solutions. Thank you Dominique

On 09/29/2016 01:11 AM, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 28. September 2016, 16:39:29 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar:

...

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 15:58 +0200, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

...

And maybe tracker should not be autostarted in other desktops than GNOME at all.

And then people come complain that GNOME Photos, GNOME Music et.al do not show content when running outside of the GNOME session

Ok.

But then there's one thing I don't understand: Why is the autostart restricted to *some* desktops (GNOME, KDE and XFCE in particular, the rest probably doesn't matter in openSUSE)?

There are more desktops around.

...

...

E.g. if you happen to have tracker installed and login to KDE, tracker is running as well in addition to KDE's file indexer (baloo). So your files get indexed twice without any apparent benefit.

Except if you run GNOME integrated apps on your KDE Session - otherwise you should not install tracker

Yeah, it's just that something else might pull it in without you noticing.

Like the XFCE pattern.

Or, I noticed tracker running on a KDE-only system which I upgraded from 13.1 to 13.2, just a standard 13.1 KDE install without installing much extra. No idea what exactly pulled it in though. I just uninstalled it back then (2 years ago) and didn't investigate.

...

We can of course change the autostart - but then decline all future bugs for software depending on the indexer to find appropriate content...

How many bug reports did you get for tracker not running on IceWM, twm, LXDE, MATE, Cinnamon, WindowMaker, Enlightenment, ... so far? ;-)

Enlightenment has a configuration option to disable the "OnlyShowIn" behavior its previous behavior was to ignore those as so many people got it wrong. I've fixed a couple of packages that were missing enlightenment in the OnlyShowIn flag so It might be enabled now. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+9:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Richard Brown wrote:

I believe the logic used by the GNOME applications in question is that 'users do not care where their files of type BLAH are, they are loading an application to play Music/view photos/watch videos and they need to be shown their Music, Photos, and Videos, regardless of where they are.

That was the MS-Windows Search attitude when they introduced the new search function in windows 7. "Cept, about that time many users also got NAS drives, which MS refused to search -- only allowing indexes of NAS drives to be included in search if they ran MS-Server. Of course it gets more interesting pushing users to put their content in the clouds where they can't easily index it unless they have their cloud provider index it for them -- no privacy issues there. Would really would have been useful is if any of the linux-search apps served their content via the published MS-syndicated search protocol, then those linux search apps would have been useful for people running linux as servers for Win-desktops as well as providing MS's semantic desktop that KDE sounds like it is offering. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org