On 22 April 2017 at 12:24, Simon Lees wrote:

On 04/22/2017 07:15 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 22 April 2017 at 11:11, Luke Jones wrote:

...

Regarding the desktop selection process, I've spotted a few suggestions in other mails to this topic; - No Default - Do not change the ordering of the choices (this could spark another "war") - Provide guides in the install process which users can click on.

I like the above. In fact this could give openSUSE an edge as the first distro to provide a full offline installation medium with guides to desktop selection provided within the installer. The guides could be a button next to each selection [Details], which brings up a window of clickables that shows such things as; - what a clean default Desktop looks like, along with description of capabilities and/or highlights. + A list of the main default applications, each of which can be clicked, eg, as below. - what the default browser, office suite, and pdf viewer are plus concise descriptions of capabilities, - the default music player, video player, and perhaps image viewer are, along with concise details as above.

So basically highlight the main points of each default install selection for each desktop. It seems that if we cover the main applications and use cases in the suggested installer addition, then we could easily let new users decide what they might be comfortable with trying.

Would it be worth discussing the above in a new thread perhaps?

Kind regards, Luke Jones.

Yes, this sounds like a topic worthy of a new thread, here's the thread

I think the easiest way to implement this would probably be in adding a new 'Help Me Decide?' button to the Role Selection screen

That Help Me Decide button could then load up a separate window inside YaST, such as we already do with the Release Notes

It should be possible to have it somewhat 'rich' with fonts and graphics, maybe even HTML'y so easy for anyone to contribute to.

It's theoretically possible it could actually retrieve it's content remotely, like the Release Notes now do, which would make it even more contribution friendly and flexible considering Tumbleweed's desktop offerings will always be in a somewhat flexible state.

I also like this idea, although there's plenty of room in the current role selection screen if we wanted to do some of it there.

I'm a bit hesitant about fetching it remotely though especially on the DVD, based off experience in #suse on irc many of the people who still use the DVD do so because they have a wifi adapter thats not supported and that they can't really setup until post install, combined with not easily being able to use ethernet. Or they live in a country where internet access is still often quite limited and so maybe running the installer without a internet connection.

Really as a project we should be able to have something ready a month out from release or maybe even 2 if we want to translate it. I'm not saying this can't be done collaboratively on line, but like with other parts of the project we could just set a freeze date after which the contents are synced to the DVD for the last time. There is probably no reason (other then someone checking for typo's) why this couldn't be done pretty close to Gold Master date.

Well we have plenty of time until the release of Leap Leap 42.3 is probably too far ahead for any of these changes we've been talking about, and it has a big enough change by introducing the Role Selection screen in the first place ;) Your point does kind of fall apart when you don't think about Leap though - Tumbleweed doesn't have freeze dates, and I do not think we'd want to wait a month before introducing a new desktop just to ensure the help info for it gets translated. So maybe the dream solution is to have both an online version and a static on-disk version. In which case, probably all the more important it's a button in YaST and not modifying the Role Selection too heavily because I imagine the less we do to that screen directly, the better :) (IIRC that's why the Release Notes button is how it is these days) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I'd like to try and crystallize some of what has been discussed so far; "Help Me Decide" - As a button title this sounds great. Would we go with this as a single button, or would we rather have a list of desktops with check-marks, and a [Details] button next to each? "Help Me Decide" has a nice sound to it, and could potentially lead to less work? If we went with one button, then this would be bringing up a window with a list of the Desktops (the same list as what is presented as choice), perhaps with a lets say, banner-style image next to the entry which shows a small section of the desktop - perhaps enough to highlight the look and feel? Upon click through of an entry, the user would then be presented with a new window view which could be laid out as list on the left - separator - view on the right. The list would contain entries for the default installed items for the following tasks; - Desktop - Web Browser - Email Client - Office Suite - Music Player - Video Player - Text Editor - anything else regarded as common? IDE? The title would be clickable, and show a view on the right with a description, and concise list of highlights/features along with any relevant sectional screen-snips/shots, next to the title could also be [screenshot] to show a full detail screenshot. The aim here would be to keep it all neutral, concise, to the point. Present the information clearly and cleanly without hand holding. For example (my experience is limited to Gnome these days, so that is the example I will use); Gnome: Simple and clean aesthetic, works well with touchscreens. Integrates well with many online/cloud services. [Desktop Screen] Gnome-Documents: [Example Screen] Aims to be a central organizational point for your documents for quick and easy search and viewing. Features: - Night Mode, for switching to a dark GUI theme and inverting document colours [Comparison Screen] - Presentation Mode, hides gui elements and switches to full screen - View Google Docs With regards to online/on-disk use of this feature, perhaps /both/ would be the ideal solution particularly in light of translations. We could check for the presence of a net connection and d/l the translations as required - until those are available on-disk.

...

...

It should be possible to have it somewhat 'rich' with fonts and graphics, maybe even HTML'y so easy for anyone to contribute to.

If this is possible then that would be great! But, we would absolutely need a rigid style guide for it. Thanks, Luke Jones On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 22 April 2017 at 12:24, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 04/22/2017 07:15 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 22 April 2017 at 11:11, Luke Jones wrote:

...

Regarding the desktop selection process, I've spotted a few suggestions in other mails to this topic; - No Default - Do not change the ordering of the choices (this could spark another "war") - Provide guides in the install process which users can click on.

I like the above. In fact this could give openSUSE an edge as the first distro to provide a full offline installation medium with guides to desktop selection provided within the installer. The guides could be a button next to each selection [Details], which brings up a window of clickables that shows such things as; - what a clean default Desktop looks like, along with description of capabilities and/or highlights. + A list of the main default applications, each of which can be clicked, eg, as below. - what the default browser, office suite, and pdf viewer are plus concise descriptions of capabilities, - the default music player, video player, and perhaps image viewer are, along with concise details as above.

So basically highlight the main points of each default install selection for each desktop. It seems that if we cover the main applications and use cases in the suggested installer addition, then we could easily let new users decide what they might be comfortable with trying.

Would it be worth discussing the above in a new thread perhaps?

Kind regards, Luke Jones.

Yes, this sounds like a topic worthy of a new thread, here's the thread

I think the easiest way to implement this would probably be in adding a new 'Help Me Decide?' button to the Role Selection screen

That Help Me Decide button could then load up a separate window inside YaST, such as we already do with the Release Notes

It should be possible to have it somewhat 'rich' with fonts and graphics, maybe even HTML'y so easy for anyone to contribute to.

It's theoretically possible it could actually retrieve it's content remotely, like the Release Notes now do, which would make it even more contribution friendly and flexible considering Tumbleweed's desktop offerings will always be in a somewhat flexible state.

I also like this idea, although there's plenty of room in the current role selection screen if we wanted to do some of it there.

I'm a bit hesitant about fetching it remotely though especially on the DVD, based off experience in #suse on irc many of the people who still use the DVD do so because they have a wifi adapter thats not supported and that they can't really setup until post install, combined with not easily being able to use ethernet. Or they live in a country where internet access is still often quite limited and so maybe running the installer without a internet connection.

Really as a project we should be able to have something ready a month out from release or maybe even 2 if we want to translate it. I'm not saying this can't be done collaboratively on line, but like with other parts of the project we could just set a freeze date after which the contents are synced to the DVD for the last time. There is probably no reason (other then someone checking for typo's) why this couldn't be done pretty close to Gold Master date.

Well we have plenty of time until the release of Leap

Leap 42.3 is probably too far ahead for any of these changes we've been talking about, and it has a big enough change by introducing the Role Selection screen in the first place ;)

Your point does kind of fall apart when you don't think about Leap though - Tumbleweed doesn't have freeze dates, and I do not think we'd want to wait a month before introducing a new desktop just to ensure the help info for it gets translated.

So maybe the dream solution is to have both an online version and a static on-disk version.

In which case, probably all the more important it's a button in YaST and not modifying the Role Selection too heavily because I imagine the less we do to that screen directly, the better :) (IIRC that's why the Release Notes button is how it is these days) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/23/2017 07:45 PM, H.Merijn Brand wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 10:37:53 +1200, Luke Jones wrote:

...

I'd like to try and crystallize some of what has been discussed so far;

"Help Me Decide" - As a button title this sounds great. Would we go with this as a single button, or would we rather have a list of desktops with check-marks, and a [Details] button next to each? "Help Me Decide" has a nice sound to it, and could potentially lead to less work?

If we went with one button, then this would be bringing up a window with a list of the Desktops (the same list as what is presented as choice), perhaps with a lets say, banner-style image next to the entry which shows a small section of the desktop - perhaps enough to highlight the look and feel?

Upon click through of an entry, the user would then be presented with a new window view which could be laid out as list on the left - separator - view on the right. The list would contain entries for the default installed items for the following tasks; - Desktop - Web Browser

Would you go as far as to include different versions of the same browser?

- Opera - Opera Beta - Opera Developer - Opera Stable - Vivaldi - Vivaldi Snapshot - Vivaldi Stable - Newmoon/palemoon - Chrome/chromium - Firefox - Seamonkey - Konqueror - Epiphany - w3m - lynx - links - ...

As far as patterns and the default selection goes Firefox is the only browser we preinstall

...

- Email Client - Office Suite - Music Player - Video Player - Text Editor - anything else regarded as common? IDE?

• Default shell.

- bash - tcsh - zsh - gnome-shell - mc - be-shell - ksh - mksh

I know I am growing to be a minority, but having the tcsh as working environment really makes me happy. But it still *is* the thing I type most of my commands in.

Well personally I think the default interactive shell for users should be fish, but again for all users the default shell is currently bash so there is no need to explain it to current users. It would be cool to set your default shell from the installer but this would be better in the user section where it is with yast.

• Scripting language Perl5, Perl6, Python2, Python3, PHP, Lua, R, Rust, Go, Ruby, ...

These are currently available in the "Other" well the ones with a pattern anyway again we probably don't need to explain this to new users.

• Terminal window xterm, lxterminal, qterminal, gnome-terminal, pantheon-terminal, xfce4-terminal, konsole, ...

• IRC client? hexchat, konversation, pidgeon, irssi, ...

And waaaaay beyond this scope, but how awesome would it be • Font preferences I hate serif fonts. How awesome would it be to be able to tell my installation to always choose the font I want for browser, editor, IRC, whatever and never see that ugly Times and Courier.

Again this would be better in a different section of the installer as its a different part of yast so it could be done if someone did it. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B