-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-17 23:06, C wrote:

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Dominik Baumann <> wrote:

...

Conclusion: A beginner isn't able to keep his operating system up to date (even important security patches will miss).

Has anyone tried a little patience here?

After years of apper, I don't have much left.

I agree... Apper is the new Beagle, and we all want it gone... myself included. I get that same exact annoying error with Apper, but, it's only after a fresh install, or within a short period after booting (intermittent).

I get it always. Always, till it misconfigures and never starts again or I remove it.

For everyone having problems with it... have you tried a little patience (as a workaround)? Seriously. I've done two system installs in the past 3 weeks. Both exhibited the Apper problem... and on both systems it stopped being a problem after a couple of hours

Couple of hours? I'm the boss and apper obeys me now or I kill it. Not even two minutes wait. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 "Asparagus" GM (bombadillo)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAutaQACgkQU92UU+smfQXtTACfTznyms1CU9QairWnvn8F17Tr As0An1QvVl1BI14yYiowcOAoQnve6c2p =MKN1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-17 23:35, C wrote:

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

Couple of hours? I'm the boss and apper obeys me now or I kill it. Not even two minutes wait.

And... you snipped the bit where I said.. that waiting wasn't a solution.... I just asked if anyone has tried it. It probably isn't a couple of hours.. more like a few minutes. I just know that consistently on every single install I've done since at least 11.3 (on all my computers plau all the ones my friends are running oS on), Apper has collided with YaST, and it always always happens immediately after the initial install, and if I wait for Apper to do its thing... then no more problems from then on (my systems stay on 24x7, but I have noticed the occasional collision after a reboot).

I'm not that patient. Last time I needed to do something, and yast refused because apper was running. Yast asked apper to quit, after some wait, and it did not. I repeated three times. Then I killed package kit and told yast to retry, no go because package kit restarted automatically. Three times. Several minutes had passed. I could not uninstall apper because I had no chance to use any package manager. The only resource I had left was to first rename package kit, then kill the running instance, so that it could not start again. Happiness at last! Notice that the process does some wait, and I repeated the process three times. That is more than enough wait for me. I lost patience, it was not going to quit.

Why does it need to lock the RPM database anyway? If it is simply scanning the installed apps, can't it do it in a more passive mode? You should only have to lock the database if you're _changing_ content... not viewing. The fact it's locking the database is... stupid. If you click on it and tell it to apply updates.. then lock the database, but NOT during a scan.

Absolutely. That's what databases are for. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 "Asparagus" GM (bombadillo)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAuxlcACgkQU92UU+smfQXbdgCeOZx1WSMxvAf3KJwi+U1cbeSE B88An2HVlT/2XCwmC88tpoIuYV0dm+Oe =+A8M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/17/12 17:06, C pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Dominik Baumann wrote:

...

Conclusion: A beginner isn't able to keep his operating system up to date (even important security patches will miss).

Has anyone tried a little patience here?

I agree... Apper is the new Beagle, and we all want it gone... myself included. I get that same exact annoying error with Apper, but, it's only after a fresh install, or within a short period after booting (intermittent).

For everyone having problems with it... have you tried a little patience (as a workaround)? Seriously. I've done two system installs in the past 3 weeks. Both exhibited the Apper problem... and on both systems it stopped being a problem after a couple of hours post-install (on the faster Intel i3 system, it took less time than the Atom CPU based system). Both systems are running right now with Apper running... and neither one has the collision problem anymore. The same applies with all other computers I've installed openSUSE 12.1 on. I waited an hour or two post-install before trying to use YaST and no collisions, butif I tried to use YaST Software installer immediately after the initial install, or within a couple fo minutes of booting an aged install... splat.

This is not a solution to the root of the problem.. but... you don't need to do all these hack-y things like renaming the binary. We still need to resolve the root issue of course.

C.

Once you resolve the issue with apper we'll stop recommending it's removal. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday 18 Aug 2012 15:55:55 Guido Berhoerster wrote:

* Andreas Jaeger [2012-08-18 15:35]:

...

Btw. the only alternative I see would be installing the gnome-packagekit applet on KDE (not tested whether that will work). I'm not sure we want that...

There is no gnome-packagekit applet any more since it was integrated into gnome-settings-daemon, you can however use pk-update-icon (https://gitorious.org/opensuse/pk-update-icon) which should work fine with KDE. It won't solve the underlying issues with PK though. Apart from that, wasn't the main issue with PK that the zypp backend was using uneccesarily locking for some operations? At least I remember reading something like that a while ago, though I can't find it in the ML archives right now with all the noise regarding PK.

All the serious Apper bugs bar one are actually in PK or the zypp backend https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=725570 is possibly Apper specific and would cause the zypper/packagekitd lock contention, but I don't have a way to reproduce it in 12.2. So using pk-update-icon wouldn't help much. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Board, Booster, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-19 02:02, Rajko wrote:

This is answer to you Domink, but it is addressing just about everybody annoyed with package management problems that we see as Apper problems.

I have it disabled and I don't miss it (much), but new users should have something that will take care of updates and simple installations, without overwhelming YaST Software Management interface.

So, if we are eager to advocate new openSUSE users well being, we should probably try to help Will et all to fix the thing, as that will bring some solution, unlike tossing out the only good looking (as in sexy) package management that we have.

For that, as I said already several times, it is needed that volunteers with knowledge of these tools step up in the places where newcomers ask about problems with apper and PK before the “locals” answer to remove apper and PK. If I'm not clear enough: volunteers promoting apper must get down to the forums (because it is there where most newcommers go) and the opensuse mail list. Unless you do, we will have a new generation hating apper and PK this September. I can only promise not to recommend removing apper and friends till the “volunteer brigade” steps in and help. If they don't come in time, they will be told to remove the tools before 24 hours by the locals :-p Also, that “volunteer brigade” will probably have to go there now and convince the locals to refrain from recommending to remove apper and friends - and that is not here in the factory mail list. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 "Asparagus" GM (bombadillo)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAwXeQACgkQU92UU+smfQXHYACcCmYaU/FRJXKIWliuL9quaRUz x6wAn2eVR8ADJJ2VraaG/GtirY24Ccoc =C0kC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/19/2012 11:41 AM, Rajko wrote:

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 05:30:45 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

before the “locals” answer to remove apper and PK.

At least you and Carl are "locals" here and there, so if you can take action that will rather allow debugging, like explain how to disable Apper when it misbehaves, so it is not in the user way, but it can be enabled, updated and checked again.

What this can accomplish? Allow to fix bugs and, possibly, add some missing bits.

the developers unaware of the problems? if more bugs are logged, they will be fixed? this time? really? explaining to a new user (after their system is trashed) how to disable apper/packagekit leaves no rational/believable answer to their question: Why do you include software known to kill a system? only "the community" can answer that--not Carl or Carlos, as individual members.. maybe the board should write the SDB on how to disable, and explain why. or, maybe delegate the SBD writing task to the developers/maintainers/packagers of YaST, zypper and the libs that collide with . . . dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012-08-19 21:18, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Sonntag, 19. August 2012, 20:37:40 schrieb DenverD:

...

explaining to a new user (after their system is trashed) how to disable apper/packagekit leaves no rational/believable answer to their question: Why do you include software known to kill a system?

Could you please point out how an app which does not work/does not allow vendor changes can trash a system in a way zypper etc. cannot?

Go read the forums for the times this has happened, and you find out :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 8/19/2012 5:41 AM, Rajko wrote:

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 05:30:45 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

before the “locals” answer to remove apper and PK.

At least you and Carl are "locals" here and there, so if you can take action that will rather allow debugging, like explain how to disable Apper when it misbehaves, so it is not in the user way, but it can be enabled, updated and checked again.

What this can accomplish? Allow to fix bugs and, possibly, add some missing bits.

(I have disabled Apper, not removed, tossed in a hole, buried and stomped few times on top of it to make sure it will not appear again :)

They said they are fine with just removing pk/apper. They are saying whoever wants apper/pk used and fixed instead of hated and discarded, then they who have that interest should probably do that. Myself I'm fine with either. I don't care about it enough to fix it or advocate fixing it. I discard it every time, especially since my systems aren't desktops. Yet if it worked well and didn't cause problems I would not exactly resent the existence of the useful feature. It sounds like it's very close to being a good system with just a little locking and signal handling bug. It sounds like a lot of good work in danger of going to waste. If _I_ had done all the work necessary to develop such a system system to that level of functionality, _I_ would certainly want to clear up that little remaining bug rather than see all my work wasted and see the OS lack the useful feature. But I didn't write that stuff, and, I don't even use it, so I have no interest in convincing anyone to use it or fix it. My only interest is, I would prefer the OS to have as few bugs as possible, whether they are in systems I use or not, since they reflect on the OS entirely, which affects it's popularity, which affect the level of quality and support I get, both from suse and from the community and google. So I don't care whether apper/pk gets fixed, or gets discarded, I just care that it doesn't stay in while being buggy. I say discard it. For this reason: The problem has existed and been known already for a long time, so if the relevant developers & maintainers haven't already taken the steps Raijko & Carlos described some time ago, or if they have taken thise steps and still been unable to fix it, then to me that indicates they lack either the interest or the ability to support the package properly, which means discarding it is better than fixing it, because any fix will only be just todays fix and the underlying developer support problem will still be there causing problems indefinitely in the future. If the package gains other maintainers then that could be revisited in that eventuality. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 20 Aug 2012 01:05:27 Carlos E. R. wrote:

I can't.

There is no icon to click and say no, just something that blocks yast. The icon hides till it finds updates. (gnome/xfce)

Look, while I was writing right now I got the icon (12.1 xfce). The options are "update" and "about". No preferences. How do I disable it? By uninstalling it, obviously... no other way.

I don't even believe you are using apper. Why? because the options you state that are available do not exist with the apper update notification icon. If you had the apper notification icon the choices you would have are "review updates", "configure", "hide". If you chose "configure", the first option is "Check for updates" which is set to "daily" by default, with the option to choose "never" thus disabling apper. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Carlos E. R. [2012-08-20 01:05]:

...

- people do not want packagkit to block their use of zypper/yast, but are not willing to simply disable the blocking services, as one can do e.g. via KDE's systemsettings, in case one uses apper. Instead they want to have it removed from the distro. They are even willing to rename binaries etc. instead of simply disabling the service.

I can't.

There is no icon to click and say no, just something that blocks yast. The icon hides till it finds updates. (gnome/xfce)

Look, while I was writing right now I got the icon (12.1 xfce). The options are "update" and "about". No preferences. How do I disable it? By uninstalling it, obviously... no other way.

Like any other autostart application, open the Xfce Settings Manager, go to "Session and Startup", select "Application Autostart", unckeck "PackageKit Updat Applet". -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le dimanche 19 août 2012, à 21:18 +0200, Sven Burmeister a écrit :

- people think that normal users do the same mixing of zypper+packagkit- frontend as they do. Does packagekit block itself as well?

It will block itself, but more softly. The big issue between zypper/yast/packagekit-frontend is the zypp lock. Between two packagekit frontends, there won't be such an issue as the same packagekit daemon will own the zypp lock. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org