Re: [opensuse-factory] thinking about yast2 (slowness)
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
在 2012-5-28 上午3:25，"Nelson Marques" <nmo.marques@gmail.com>写道：
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
Hi, all,
users complained to me many times about yast2's slowness on forums.o.o, twitter or gtalk groups. (of course in a form of flame war like apt vs. yast, yum vs. yast...I don't want to say much about that.)
I didn't believe it, until today I broke my zypp cache, and had to retrieve them all...and I found many ugly things. let me be clear one by one.
1. yast-ncurses.
you have to use `LANG=en zypper [option]` if you set your locale to non-En environment.
or texts will be displayed as unreadable ??????.
see screenshot: http://paste.opensuse.org/40229867
any ideas on this one？
2. if you broke your zypp cache, yast-ncurses will always tell you that you have insufficient permissions so can only see part of its modules, even you logged in with root. (maybe not producible)
3. yast have to download every local package descrs, no matter whether you need it or not.
Yes, you and everyone else. It's that metadata that allows zypper to resolve dependencies and other things. If you don't have it available you defeat the whole purpose of a repository.
I think just download packages.en.gz and packages.your_locale.gz will be enough. (nowadays it downloads all of them...du, kr, zh_TW, pl, blabla...)
and it's the cause of its slowness..
it took me 40 minutes to refresh it all...even with local mirrors on.
You most likely have a transparent proxy somewhere in the middle that is introducing erratic behavior or limiting down; that sounds the most reasonable explanation.
hi，nelson，
do you mean some isp slow me down in the middle of the transition from server to me？
I am not network expert...I cant quite follow this part
Yes, there can be a problem somewhere in the network, and it might be bottlenecking somewhere, which could cause issues on your end.
I have a 4MB download speed, but can only download at a speed of < 10KB/s.
I can top my home line to 1.2Mbytes/sec (12Mbit ADSL); And I can get far more higher speeds through my office.
yes.
so are you suggesting me upgrading my internet plan to use opensuse？like buy a new computer to install opensuse？
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ? Now, depending on the type of your connection there can be lots of factors, from transparent proxies, to network bottlenecks on your ISP side, crazed routing tables, etc. For example, ADSL connections you have phisical factors, like the distance between your house to the central that serves you, etc.
if my computer is obsolete. i will. but actually 4mb is the largest internet speed in Chinese...I can't immigrate only to update my opensuse box. right？
so the question I want to ask is how to or is there any possible way to speed zypper refresh based on the infrastructure I have.
There's nothing you or anyone else can do on zypper if the problem is related with a network bottleneck for example or crazed routing tables.
I knew it's slow, but I don't know it's that slow...
the standard procedure to use yast is: a. launch b. min it and do something else c. after half an hour, operate, min it again d. wait until it closes itself.
I think we really need to improve it. like:
(1) try merge package descrs among repositories. most of same packages' descrs among repos are the same. we don't need to download it several times.
I would belive that this would introduce chaos and havoc in operational theaters that contemplate concorrent repositories. Why should my repo metadata be replaced by some other repo metadata? Simples example:
- My repo has a version of PostgreSQL without UUID support. If you merge metada and mine gets replaced with the one from a repo which has PostgreSQL built with UUID support, users will most likely get a broken PostgreSQL. You will blow up the majority of systems with concorrent repositories.
do you mean packages.en.gz is used to solve dependencies？I think they are just translations. I never mean to merge oss and k：d：l contents together. but packages descr. eg %description instead of gpg keys....or rpms themeselves.
If we are talking about the files in 'repodata' or similiar depending if it's rpm-db or yast2 (which I believe we are), those files are created so that the package manager tools (zypper, yum) can read the metadata from the RPMs available instead of querying them all. So if you so for example a query on zypper and you dont have those files, there's an error. If you rmeove info from those files, it can lead to malformed dependencies. Like I said in my last email, there's most likely a global community living from those repos, you might not have interest on descriptions, but I and other people have.
eg：you may have two packages in different repos with the same %description. then why do we need to download such descriptions twice？
If dump a lot of RPMs into a directory and you run 'createrepo' on it. It extracts the metadata from all RPMs and creates those file lists or injects it into a sqlite database. This information (like I said before) is used by the package manager tools (zypper) to resolve dependencies and show information to the user. Try to search a bit for what RPM NEVRA is.
packages.en.gz has nothing to do with dependencies. or specfiles
Then we are maybe speaking of different things. I was assuming you were mentioning the files on 'repodata'. If they are... we shouldnt mess with them.
they are copied out simple texts by coolo's script work in i18n 50-tools
(2) make a daemon to download them in background when system starts.
Uncool stuff and bloat. How would that feature help a system with 1000 days uptime? You can easilly setup a local repo with mrepo and run a local mirror to overcome all the dificulties you are presenting.
yes.
but I dont know how...
someone said descrs are downloaded from suse original server and packages are downloaded from mirrors.
so to me it means I can get a fast speed if I set up a server to fetch all rpms from a mirror and install them by rpm command. or if I use yast，I have to download descrs from original server. that will be slow.
if I have such server，why I still use yast....
(3) give user options to not download and display descrs/summaries, but to find and install only using package names.
You are away that by doing such, you are suggesting that we strip off zypper functionality that will affect dependency resolution? How will this help? For example:
- # zypper install /usr/bin/ssh
Now what does zypper do if he can't access the repo metadata? :)
do you mean package.en.gz is metadata controling dependencies？
Well maybe we need some yast expert to tell us....because I translated such packages.en.gz and didnt find any dependencies in it. I dont know if there are autoscripts adding such dependencies to my translations.
I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them, neither I want to be.
if there is. it will be design default. because rpm dont know chinese...how can it solve dependencies in packages.zh_cn.gz？
just some ideas in thin air....I don't how to implement it.
PS: I think we should remove the "OSS might be slow" string from translations and yast itself.
a warning is something you can avoid and don't do it. but repositories?
you have to enable it not matter how many warnings it warns, if you want to do things using it.
but are those things dangerous or risky? no. come on, it's our own OSS repo. it's just slow.
and can you avoid that slow? no...
so it sounds to warn users something they can't change. useless and feels forcibly.
it does us more harms than benefits if you think it deeper.
we give our users a bad first impression that it is slow, so it has to be fast like a flash to change their such minds.
Please consider that there is a world outside China ;)
yes...
without any part， it cant be called world...so we have to solve the problem in the worst place instead of the best place...
actually，off topic，opensuse has little users in China partially because it is hard to download（big iso）and update （slow yast）. most people's internet speed is even slower than mine....
What I meant is that openSUSE serves a global community, therefore, because I only use English, doesnt mean that German, Russian, Portuguese and other should be removed on behalf of my own needs because there are other people for which those are important.
greetings，marguerite
from my Android.
Regards
Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 00:18, Nelson Marques wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <>:
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ?
You should remember that normally the metadata is downloaded directly from opensuse.org, but the rpms are downloaded from local mirrors. And being China, there is the Great Firewall in between. Even without that great thing you get different speed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Cq0wACgkQIvFNjefEBxr51ACgj+T/GZ5pR2YjKhyOFsclZqRi JCkAoJmSg1rufGgflEOr9ZuHKh0C2wG1 =+eKr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:31 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 00:18, Nelson Marques wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <>:
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ?
You should remember that normally the metadata is downloaded directly from opensuse.org, but the rpms are downloaded from local mirrors. And being China, there is the Great Firewall in between.
Even without that great thing you get different speed.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/Cq0wACgkQIvFNjefEBxr51ACgj+T/GZ5pR2YjKhyOFsclZqRi JCkAoJmSg1rufGgflEOr9ZuHKh0C2wG1 =+eKr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
sorry guys, clear some my mistakes. 1. only oss and non-oss has package.locale.gz there're only translation file. so no way to "merge" between repos. 2. and zypper only caches en, DU and your locale. here DU doesn't mean German. but some codes. seems it's what Nelson said "solve dependencies". so does package.gz 3. local mirrors do cache such descriptions. so it's reasonable and no fault or mistake on design. I should try digging to find out why it's so slow in my area. Thanks Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 00:50, Marguerite Su wrote:
I should try digging to find out why it's so slow in my area.
Well, I gave you an hypothesis, and you say nothing to contradict it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CsQQACgkQIvFNjefEBxr7SQCeIvhmcG9jIN6oJ4dPvjfImVXx UB8AoJFJtTp5LfXImIio+3LMAUokUjw5 =lz9u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Dude pulling the one on the great firewall of china is asking for flames; It isn't a firewall problem, it's most likely a network bottleneck somewhere, something a simple traceroute would most likely provide some basic information about. 2012/5/27 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 00:50, Marguerite Su wrote:
I should try digging to find out why it's so slow in my area.
Well, I gave you an hypothesis, and you say nothing to contradict it.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CsQQACgkQIvFNjefEBxr7SQCeIvhmcG9jIN6oJ4dPvjfImVXx UB8AoJFJtTp5LfXImIio+3LMAUokUjw5 =lz9u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
Dude pulling the one on the great firewall of china is asking for flames; It isn't a firewall problem, it's most likely a network bottleneck somewhere, something a simple traceroute would most likely provide some basic information about.
haha...GFW is the enemy of human nature...it's not flames... actually you guys live in the outside world never know what GFW really is. ( but there's nothing to be proud about...) I have a twitter friend working for GFW. he said: actually GFW is the thing slows us down...because it has to delay the internet so it can detect sensitive words and filter them. it's not only a national firewall....but content filter system. Marguerite
2012/5/27 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 00:50, Marguerite Su wrote:
I should try digging to find out why it's so slow in my area.
Well, I gave you an hypothesis, and you say nothing to contradict it.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CsQQACgkQIvFNjefEBxr7SQCeIvhmcG9jIN6oJ4dPvjfImVXx UB8AoJFJtTp5LfXImIio+3LMAUokUjw5 =lz9u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2012/5/28 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
Dude pulling the one on the great firewall of china is asking for flames; It isn't a firewall problem, it's most likely a network bottleneck somewhere, something a simple traceroute would most likely provide some basic information about.
haha...GFW is the enemy of human nature...it's not flames...
To be honest, I would love to have a Great Firewall of Portugal, so that everytime someone checks for child porn and other sorts of things they could have the police bashing down their door and make them pay... So in a way I give credits to China for having such mechanisms.
actually you guys live in the outside world never know what GFW really is. ( but there's nothing to be proud about...)
And we shared history with China for the last 600 years... A proof of that is Macau... There's a lot to learn from China, not only Kung Fu :)
I have a twitter friend working for GFW. he said:
actually GFW is the thing slows us down...because it has to delay the internet so it can detect sensitive words and filter them.
Any network equipment with port cache does the same, or not? Whats the difference ? :)
it's not only a national firewall....but content filter system.
I'm sure it is... We need one of those things in Portugal for nice things like fighting child porn online and other stupid things.
Marguerite
2012/5/27 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 00:50, Marguerite Su wrote:
I should try digging to find out why it's so slow in my area.
Well, I gave you an hypothesis, and you say nothing to contradict it.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CsQQACgkQIvFNjefEBxr7SQCeIvhmcG9jIN6oJ4dPvjfImVXx UB8AoJFJtTp5LfXImIio+3LMAUokUjw5 =lz9u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/28 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
Dude pulling the one on the great firewall of china is asking for flames; It isn't a firewall problem, it's most likely a network bottleneck somewhere, something a simple traceroute would most likely provide some basic information about.
haha...GFW is the enemy of human nature...it's not flames...
To be honest, I would love to have a Great Firewall of Portugal, so that everytime someone checks for child porn and other sorts of things they could have the police bashing down their door and make them pay... So in a way I give credits to China for having such mechanisms.
actually you guys live in the outside world never know what GFW really is. ( but there's nothing to be proud about...)
And we shared history with China for the last 600 years... A proof of that is Macau... There's a lot to learn from China, not only Kung Fu :)
I have a twitter friend working for GFW. he said:
actually GFW is the thing slows us down...because it has to delay the internet so it can detect sensitive words and filter them.
Any network equipment with port cache does the same, or not? Whats the difference ? :)
it's not only a national firewall....but content filter system.
I'm sure it is... We need one of those things in Portugal for nice things like fighting child porn online and other stupid things.
yes...your will is good...but the reality is cruel... actually it filters less porn things than you think...some large Japanese Audit Video site even has its server in China ( to avoid strict patent laws like Holland) ...how could a national firewall do to something inside it? nope...it's a one-side system...it only filters the inside -> outside traffic...so you don't even feel it... a. how can you keep it away from a tool of the politicians to filter political incorrect words? no way...even Google has to compromise...and that's in India...China is worse. b. how can you keep it away from a "switch" to cut down all traffic through it? every time it upgrade itself, we people all cross the nation have to suffer a great slow down to the outside world...like some hardware is shutdown...they can only let packets pass through the less hardware one by one. and if one day some powerful person decide to shut it down as a whole...then bye bye openSUSE community....I will be locked inside. Marguerite
Marguerite
2012/5/27 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 00:50, Marguerite Su wrote:
I should try digging to find out why it's so slow in my area.
Well, I gave you an hypothesis, and you say nothing to contradict it.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CsQQACgkQIvFNjefEBxr7SQCeIvhmcG9jIN6oJ4dPvjfImVXx UB8AoJFJtTp5LfXImIio+3LMAUokUjw5 =lz9u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 28/05/12 09:10, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
Dude pulling the one on the great firewall of china is asking for flames; It isn't a firewall problem, it's most likely a network bottleneck somewhere, something a simple traceroute would most likely provide some basic information about.
haha...GFW is the enemy of human nature...it's not flames...
actually you guys live in the outside world never know what GFW really is. ( but there's nothing to be proud about...)
I have a twitter friend working for GFW. he said:
actually GFW is the thing slows us down...because it has to delay the internet so it can detect sensitive words and filter them.
it's not only a national firewall....but content filter system.
Marguerite
May be useful to read the following article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150281/REVEALED-Hundreds-words-avoi... BC -- Using openSUSE 12.1 x86_64 KDE 4.8.3 and kernel 3.4.0 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2012-05-28 at 07:10 +0800, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
Dude pulling the one on the great firewall of china is asking for flames; It isn't a firewall problem, it's most likely a network bottleneck somewhere, something a simple traceroute would most likely provide some basic information about.
haha...GFW is the enemy of human nature...it's not flames...
actually you guys live in the outside world never know what GFW really is. ( but there's nothing to be proud about...)
I have a twitter friend working for GFW. he said:
actually GFW is the thing slows us down...because it has to delay the internet so it can detect sensitive words and filter them.
it's not only a national firewall....but content filter system.
Marguerite
Isn't there a possibility to create your own local mirror in CN ? hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 01:02, Nelson Marques wrote:
Dude pulling the one on the great firewall of china is asking for flames; It isn't a firewall problem, it's most likely a network bottleneck somewhere, something a simple traceroute would most likely provide some basic information about.
It is not only the firewall, I said and repeat that the data and metadata go different routes on any country. Different servers, thus different speed - which is what she noticed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CtI4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrzYACfZkQ7mjx0x6I2jV0xRYTvtllJ +sEAoJdNmOfFMDxxmuVhYGwID9b6IDwM =BM8G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:56 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 00:50, Marguerite Su wrote:
I should try digging to find out why it's so slow in my area.
Well, I gave you an hypothesis, and you say nothing to contradict it.
unluckily I can't find any .curlrc...in my /root and my home...openSUSE didn't create that file for me...
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CsQQACgkQIvFNjefEBxr7SQCeIvhmcG9jIN6oJ4dPvjfImVXx UB8AoJFJtTp5LfXImIio+3LMAUokUjw5 =lz9u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 01:12, Marguerite Su wrote:
unluckily I can't find any .curlrc...in my /root and my home...openSUSE didn't create that file for me...
So what? Create it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CtS8ACgkQIvFNjefEBxox3wCePQ4iQdqZnUBhmCeIKMAy0y9i Nt8AoK1+tALQbLhJ5Wr0CyoxuBKASfYJ =2iS8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 01:12, Marguerite Su wrote:
unluckily I can't find any .curlrc...in my /root and my home...openSUSE didn't create that file for me...
So what? Create it.
so it doesn't seem to be curl thing...... to tell curl to use ipv4 only is redundant....because actually I disabled ipv6 in NetworkManager configuration after I knew there's no ipv6 in China..... Marguerite
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CtS8ACgkQIvFNjefEBxox3wCePQ4iQdqZnUBhmCeIKMAy0y9i Nt8AoK1+tALQbLhJ5Wr0CyoxuBKASfYJ =2iS8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 01:33, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
On 2012-05-28 01:12, Marguerite Su wrote:
unluckily I can't find any .curlrc...in my /root and my home...openSUSE didn't create that file for me...
So what? Create it.
so it doesn't seem to be curl thing......
to tell curl to use ipv4 only is redundant....because actually I disabled ipv6 in NetworkManager configuration after I knew there's no ipv6 in China.....
That one doesn't work with curl, it ignores that setting. I learned that today in the forums. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Cuy8ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrAggCgh81QWc9tMay6N9PRNC00jOvS jYQAnR21Rn4YjLDb2RISFs4leu/kjmyg =cgxD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 01:33, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
On 2012-05-28 01:12, Marguerite Su wrote:
unluckily I can't find any .curlrc...in my /root and my home...openSUSE didn't create that file for me...
So what? Create it.
so it doesn't seem to be curl thing......
to tell curl to use ipv4 only is redundant....because actually I disabled ipv6 in NetworkManager configuration after I knew there's no ipv6 in China.....
That one doesn't work with curl, it ignores that setting. I learned that today in the forums.
oh? thanks a lot for sharing this great news. so I have to create a /home/marguerite/.curlrc with content "--ipv4", right?
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/Cuy8ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrAggCgh81QWc9tMay6N9PRNC00jOvS jYQAnR21Rn4YjLDb2RISFs4leu/kjmyg =cgxD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su> wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 01:33, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
On 2012-05-28 01:12, Marguerite Su wrote:
unluckily I can't find any .curlrc...in my /root and my home...openSUSE didn't create that file for me...
So what? Create it.
so it doesn't seem to be curl thing......
to tell curl to use ipv4 only is redundant....because actually I disabled ipv6 in NetworkManager configuration after I knew there's no ipv6 in China.....
That one doesn't work with curl, it ignores that setting. I learned that today in the forums.
oh? thanks a lot for sharing this great news.
so I have to create a /home/marguerite/.curlrc with content "--ipv4", right?
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/Cuy8ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrAggCgh81QWc9tMay6N9PRNC00jOvS jYQAnR21Rn4YjLDb2RISFs4leu/kjmyg =cgxD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
oh come on... let's talk with inner peace... by the way seems we ignore the "1" I mentioned. that is: in yast-ncurses, I have to use "LANG=en zypper [option]", or it'll display locale characters "?????"...totally unreadable... so is it a "bug" or something? seems you and nelson are not en users too...can you give me some hints on it? Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 01:53, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Marguerite Su <> wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
TRIM POSTS, please...
oh come on...
let's talk with inner peace...
by the way seems we ignore the "1" I mentioned.
that is:
in yast-ncurses, I have to use "LANG=en zypper [option]", or it'll display locale characters "?????"...totally unreadable...
so is it a "bug" or something?
I did not ignore it, I simply have not installed factory and can not verify. With Spanish in 11.4 it works: |> Telcontar:~ # LANG=es_ES zypper --help |> Uso: |> zypper [--opciones-globales] <comando> [--opciones-comando] [argumentos] |> |> Opciones globales: |> --help, -h Ayuda. |> --version, -V Mostrar el número de versión. |> --config, -c <archivo> Usar el archivo de configuración indicado en lugar del predeterminado. |> --quiet, -q Suprimir la salida estándar, muestra sólo los |> mensajes de error. I don't know about other locales - I could try Chinese (?) but I would not know if the result were correct or not.
seems you and nelson are not en users too...can you give me some hints on it?
I'm a contributor, I translate to Spanish the packages I can. I'm not a coder nor a packager. I did programming for a living time ago, but for Windows; I know very little of Linux programming. And if I did, I would use Pascal :-P - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CwKIACgkQIvFNjefEBxqVgACfaFEtpGyTaMnCAw0Hg1NGhho4 zlEAnRQklZkSsoONx+2wOfboO4+xFN6K =sThN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I did not ignore it, I simply have not installed factory and can not verify. With Spanish in 11.4 it works:
|> Telcontar:~ # LANG=es_ES zypper --help |> Uso: |> zypper [--opciones-globales] <comando> [--opciones-comando] [argumentos] |> |> Opciones globales: |> --help, -h Ayuda. |> --version, -V Mostrar el número de versión. |> --config, -c <archivo> Usar el archivo de configuración indicado en lugar del predeterminado. |> --quiet, -q Suprimir la salida estándar, muestra sólo los |> mensajes de error.
I don't know about other locales - I could try Chinese (?) but I would not know if the result were correct or not.
try `sudo zypper ref`. if you set your locale into Spanish...when zypper refreshes the repositories, there'll be something like: 软件源'GNOME:Apps'是最新的。 软件源'KDE:Distro:Factory'是最新的。 (Repository '*' is updated.) that's the output from konsole. but if you do the same thing in console login. it will shows: ???? 'GNOME:Apps' ????? ???? 'KDE:Distro:Factory' ????? I don't know if it's only for CJK characters...or maybe it's not yast bug, but lack of console CJK fonts. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
if you set your locale into Spanish...when zypper refreshes the repositories, there'll be something like:
软件源'GNOME:Apps'是最新的。 软件源'KDE:Distro:Factory'是最新的。 (Repository '*' is updated.)
that's the output from konsole.
but if you do the same thing in console login. it will shows:
???? 'GNOME:Apps' ????? ???? 'KDE:Distro:Factory' ?????
I don't know if it's only for CJK characters...or maybe it's not yast bug, but lack of console CJK fonts.
That's most likely a font issue... You have the definition of the font in /etc/sysconfig/i18n (if I'm not mistaken), you can try to change the console font to one you know that supports your local language (I assume Mandarin) and check it out. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know if it's only for CJK characters...or maybe it's not yast bug, but lack of console CJK fonts.
That's most likely a font issue... You have the definition of the font in /etc/sysconfig/i18n (if I'm not mistaken), you can try to change the console font to one you know that supports your local language (I assume Mandarin) and check it out.
Thanks, Nelson, That's actually the solution. YaST /etc/sysconfig editor - Hardware - Console - Console_Font is "lat9w-16.psfu", which is a Latin font. ( can't be encoding error, because System - Console - Framebuffer - Console_encoding is by default UTF-8 ) but there are no CJK fonts in /usr/share/kbd/consolefonts/ so it seems I find myself some new toys...to find some open source CJK fonts and convert them from .ttf to .psfu.....then package and submit to Factory. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2012-05-28 at 08:31 +0800, Marguerite Su wrote:
( can't be encoding error, because System - Console - Framebuffer - Console_encoding is by default UTF-8 )
Try first with "su -". I get a broken display if I use sudo, and correct if I use "su -", in the same terminal under gnome. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk/C5iUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V0QQCfdWU4ExQ0o5QsdigNSv9hPCwO ODMAnjIFRIs/IWCzcyjJK7Z7q4qs5lRi =B7gM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 02:08, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
I did not ignore it, I simply have not installed factory and can not verify. With Spanish in 11.4 it works:
|> Telcontar:~ # LANG=es_ES zypper --help |> Uso: |> zypper [--opciones-globales] <comando> [--opciones-comando] [argumentos] |> |> Opciones globales: |> --help, -h Ayuda. |> --version, -V Mostrar el número de versión. |> --config, -c <archivo> Usar el archivo de configuración indicado en lugar del predeterminado. |> --quiet, -q Suprimir la salida estándar, muestra sólo los |> mensajes de error.
I don't know about other locales - I could try Chinese (?) but I would not know if the result were correct or not.
try `sudo zypper ref`.
if you set your locale into Spanish...when zypper refreshes the repositories, there'll be something like:
软件源'GNOME:Apps'是最新的。 软件源'KDE:Distro:Factory'是最新的。 (Repository '*' is updated.)
No, it works here: Telcontar:~ # LANG=es_ES zypper ref El repositorio 'nVidia Graphics Drivers' está actualizado. Obteniendo los metadatos del repositorio 'Packman Repository' [hecho] Construyendo el caché del repositorio 'Packman Repository' [hecho] El repositorio 'Google Talk Plugin' está actualizado. Sudo will not work in my system, not that way: cer@Telcontar:~> LANG=es_ES sudo zypper ref cer's password: Sorry, user cer is not allowed to execute '/usr/bin/zypper ref' as root on Telcontar. After adding the appropriate line to sudoers, it works, and then I do get a similar error to yours: cer@Telcontar:~> LANG=es_ES sudo /usr/bin/zypper ref cer's password: El repositorio 'nVidia Graphics Drivers' est� actualizado. El repositorio 'Packman Repository' est� actualizado. El repositorio 'Google Talk Plugin' est� actualizado. El repositorio 'OBSH please_try_again' est� actualizado. Obteniendo los metadatos del repositorio 'OBS: Games' [hecho] And that illustrates why I don't use nor recomend people to use sudo for administrative tasks: you do not get the full root's environment. You should have told at the start that you were using sudo. Try again using "su -". Do not forget the dash, it makes all the difference. I would not be surprised it behaves worse with the Chinese locale - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CypoACgkQIvFNjefEBxrZmQCgis/ZGM4J/CYIft6WoG+AAa8C E/4AoKCyV2BNs76vp3hojXkUJb51gVXk =uN8q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
And that illustrates why I don't use nor recomend people to use sudo for administrative tasks: you do not get the full root's environment. You should have told at the start that you were using sudo. Try again using "su -". Do not forget the dash, it makes all the difference.
Dude, sudo is ok and that's the normal behavior... what you probably are looking for is 'sudo -i'; give it a go and tell me how it goes ;) When you use sudo and want that login specific stuff is loaded (like .profile and friends) you need to call it with '-i' else it doesnt read that information. That's pretty much the normal behavior of sudo. You can pretty much add to you .bashrc: alias sudo="sudo -i" and you're ok to use sudo, right ? :=) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 02:53, Nelson Marques wrote:
alias sudo="sudo -i"
and you're ok to use sudo, right ? :=)
No: cer@Telcontar:~> LANG=es_ES sudo -i zypper ref cer's password: Sorry, user cer is not allowed to execute '/bin/bash -c zypper ref' as root on Telcontar. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/C0SoACgkQIvFNjefEBxpPbgCfaKhmnxX4Rv1HlIkfFYTywc8R slkAmwaC6pxPqRSLmiGmFEjKmKI2ULrj =ns+R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 2012-05-28 02:08, Marguerite Su wrote:
if you set your locale into Spanish...when zypper refreshes the repositories, there'll be something like:
软件源'GNOME:Apps'是最新的。 软件源'KDE:Distro:Factory'是最新的。 (Repository '*' is updated.)
that's the output from konsole.
but if you do the same thing in console login. it will shows:
???? 'GNOME:Apps' ????? ???? 'KDE:Distro:Factory' ?????
I don't know if it's only for CJK characters...or maybe it's not yast bug, but lack of console CJK fonts.
The text console does not support CJK, obviously. That was a hardware limitation, and even as framebuffer became available, the kernel did not get any support to show more than 256/512 glyphs. You have to run a program that does the rendering of the glyphs itself and submits images (rather than text) to the kernel -- fbiterm is one. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
The text console does not support CJK, obviously. That was a hardware limitation, and even as framebuffer became available, the kernel did not get any support to show more than 256/512 glyphs.
You have to run a program that does the rendering of the glyphs itself and submits images (rather than text) to the kernel -- fbiterm is one.
yes. exactly...I found psfu can only contains 256/512 glyphs.....which is far from enough for CJK..... so either I should make a new "font" contains openSUSE used words and at the same time be less than 256 glyphs or I should find other ways. I think I'll take a look at zhcon/fbterm or something others...because making a font is totally impossible.... Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 2012-05-28 11:30, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
The text console does not support CJK, obviously. That was a hardware limitation, and even as framebuffer became available, the kernel did not get any support to show more than 256/512 glyphs.
You have to run a program that does the rendering of the glyphs itself and submits images (rather than text) to the kernel -- fbiterm is one.
yes. exactly...I found psfu can only contains 256/512 glyphs.....which is far from enough for CJK.....
so either I should make a new "font" contains openSUSE used words and at the same time be less than 256 glyphs or I should find other ways.
I think I'll take a look at zhcon/fbterm or something others...because making a font is totally impossible....
Run Xorg, xterm, and enjoy all the preexisting software that can render truetype/opentype fonts. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Monday 2012-05-28 11:30, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
The text console does not support CJK, obviously. That was a hardware limitation, and even as framebuffer became available, the kernel did not get any support to show more than 256/512 glyphs.
You have to run a program that does the rendering of the glyphs itself and submits images (rather than text) to the kernel -- fbiterm is one.
yes. exactly...I found psfu can only contains 256/512 glyphs.....which is far from enough for CJK.....
so either I should make a new "font" contains openSUSE used words and at the same time be less than 256 glyphs or I should find other ways.
I think I'll take a look at zhcon/fbterm or something others...because making a font is totally impossible....
Run Xorg, xterm, and enjoy all the preexisting software that can render truetype/opentype fonts.
sorry, I know little about console login. is "xterm" or other terms like fbterm available for console login? eg: ctrl+alt+f1. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 2012-05-28 13:59, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Monday 2012-05-28 11:30, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
The text console does not support CJK, obviously. That was a hardware limitation, and even as framebuffer became available, the kernel did not get any support to show more than 256/512 glyphs.
You have to run a program that does the rendering of the glyphs itself and submits images (rather than text) to the kernel -- fbiterm is one.
yes. exactly...I found psfu can only contains 256/512 glyphs.....which is far from enough for CJK.....
so either I should make a new "font" contains openSUSE used words and at the same time be less than 256 glyphs or I should find other ways.
I think I'll take a look at zhcon/fbterm or something others...because making a font is totally impossible....
Run Xorg, xterm, and enjoy all the preexisting software that can render truetype/opentype fonts.
sorry, I know little about console login.
is "xterm" or other terms like fbterm available for console login? eg: ctrl+alt+f1.
fb(i)term works by accessing /dev/fb*. xterm does not. xterm needs an X display context. Installing an X server is rather simple compared to 10 years ago and offers you so much more possibilties. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Monday 2012-05-28 13:59, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Monday 2012-05-28 11:30, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
The text console does not support CJK, obviously. That was a hardware limitation, and even as framebuffer became available, the kernel did not get any support to show more than 256/512 glyphs.
You have to run a program that does the rendering of the glyphs itself and submits images (rather than text) to the kernel -- fbiterm is one.
yes. exactly...I found psfu can only contains 256/512 glyphs.....which is far from enough for CJK.....
so either I should make a new "font" contains openSUSE used words and at the same time be less than 256 glyphs or I should find other ways.
I think I'll take a look at zhcon/fbterm or something others...because making a font is totally impossible....
Run Xorg, xterm, and enjoy all the preexisting software that can render truetype/opentype fonts.
sorry, I know little about console login.
is "xterm" or other terms like fbterm available for console login? eg: ctrl+alt+f1.
fb(i)term works by accessing /dev/fb*. xterm does not. xterm needs an X display context. Installing an X server is rather simple compared to 10 years ago and offers you so much more possibilties.
so I need alt+ctrl+F1 and login. input "xterm", then do the things I want to do. right? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 2012-05-28 14:10, Marguerite Su wrote:
fb(i)term works by accessing /dev/fb*. xterm does not. xterm needs an X display context. Installing an X server is rather simple compared to 10 years ago and offers you so much more possibilties.
so I need alt+ctrl+F1 and login. input "xterm", then do the things I want to do. right?
What point of "xterm needs a X display" have you not understood? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 14:10, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Jan Engelhardt <> wrote:
Trimming, please...
fb(i)term works by accessing /dev/fb*. xterm does not. xterm needs an X display context. Installing an X server is rather simple compared to 10 years ago and offers you so much more possibilties.
so I need alt+ctrl+F1 and login. input "xterm", then do the things I want to do. right?
X server. That means ctrl-alt-f7, full graphic mode. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/DiHIACgkQIvFNjefEBxphcwCfQTNx0L+jYrl6xRcZmknjW1Bg FrwAoK5ZbPzRkJ0m58YR9VLcYqwabhiV =wFy3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Someone once said that I'm not a openSUSE's target user since I use Mac/Ubuntu most time :) But I still want to support ideas I feel right. In some places of China and other places in the world, the Internet connection is really limited. This should be obvious rather than surprising. In many Chinese universities, propitiatory clients are used for Internet connection authentication. Therefore, sometimes the problem is whether you can connect the Internet using non-Windows systems like openSUSE. Rather than how fast the Internet connection is. This is slightly off topic but I guess you'd better know this fact. If you want to support users with slow/litmited Internet connection. You may do two things technically. 1. Help users picking up the his or her best mirror site for all data to be downloaded. 2. Reduce the bandwidth needed for certain tasks. I'm sorry that I cannot join the detailed discussion about zypper or yast now. I'm not familiar with them. But I do hope openSUSE tools can be economical about bandwidth. CJK support for console is also one thing that many Chinese openSUSE users concern. Though CJK is definitely not the toughest script in terms of rendering. In the bad propitiatory world, Chinese people are often forced to use some sort of reverse engineering to find the resources to translate. FOSS in general is much better from this aspect. But rendering problem cancels the positive effect of NLS. English-only is better than garbage display, right? I guess interested people may start a thread and continue discussion? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 09:49, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
The text console does not support CJK, obviously. That was a hardware limitation, and even as framebuffer became available, the kernel did not get any support to show more than 256/512 glyphs.
The text console uses Spanish accented letters when running zypper as root, but not when doing it via sudo. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Dh9IACgkQIvFNjefEBxrE5wCgkYYlI6SD/FI8gdq7caIFF++O uXYAoKtY6xcNAeDYg/4zf6nOEENhEACK =0AAC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 01:49, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
oh? thanks a lot for sharing this great news.
I'm waiting for confirmation, this chap writes about once a day for a narrow time strip. But so far that is my current, educated, guess.
so I have to create a /home/marguerite/.curlrc with content "--ipv4", right?
No, under root, because zypper and yast run as root. Unless you use "su" instead of "su -", which is not recomended. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CvssACgkQIvFNjefEBxrDtgCePzoO3HPJy2OooxKxjIKDWGB5 VTcAoLaSv3oH0Dg8WjnIiulPSApYelnL =a28P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 01:49, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
No, under root, because zypper and yast run as root. Unless you use "su" instead of "su -", which is not recomended.
okay, I'll do it. and tell you if it's successful... but speed is not a thing I can feel significantly...so maybe I'll have to test enough long. Marguerite
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CvssACgkQIvFNjefEBxrDtgCePzoO3HPJy2OooxKxjIKDWGB5 VTcAoLaSv3oH0Dg8WjnIiulPSApYelnL =a28P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 02:00, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote: On 2012-05-28 01:49, Marguerite Su wrote:
but speed is not a thing I can feel significantly...so maybe I'll have to test enough long.
For the speed, I told you several times already that the data and metadata come for different servers in different countries. Two different sources. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CwRQACgkQIvFNjefEBxreeQCeNhputj80KSbHj6sYMeX6BLRW AVcAnjIkel+jK78EZgSBqFFEOCw2QnmT =fo9K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
For the speed, I told you several times already that the data and metadata come for different servers in different countries. Two different sources.
Hmmz... this is interesting... imagine you have metadata refreshened, but the local mirrors haven't updated yet... what prevents zypper from having erratic behavior. If you know any docs about it share it with me... It's actually an interesting to look at to know how this is handled. NM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 02:10, Nelson Marques wrote:
For the speed, I told you several times already that the data and metadata come for different servers in different countries. Two different sources.
Hmmz... this is interesting... imagine you have metadata refreshened, but the local mirrors haven't updated yet... what prevents zypper from having erratic behavior. If you know any docs about it share it with me... It's actually an interesting to look at to know how this is handled.
I don't have documentation or links about this, but believe me it is true. What I know is simply from reading what devs have posted about this on several occasions. Part of the metadata (the parts vary depending on the openSUSE versions; in recent versions it is less) is always downloaded directly from the openSUSE server, and is cryptographically signed. If a mirror does not contain the rpm wanted, it can not be downloaded, it will fail; I do not know if the redirector keeps track of what packages contain each mirror and redirect to the appropriate one. I think it does. If a mirror contains a manipulated rpm, as the metadata is downloaded directly from openSUSE the manipulation should be detected. However, if your repo list points to the mirrors directly, this is broken. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CxqcACgkQIvFNjefEBxqFJwCg0MsHvhoEe9QtJVJUMLpf5R4S Y5sAn0fGjr6qYnfOXT9rXqCOv4ZgRHHu =2Eny -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2012/5/28 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 02:10, Nelson Marques wrote:
For the speed, I told you several times already that the data and metadata come for different servers in different countries. Two different sources.
Hmmz... this is interesting... imagine you have metadata refreshened, but the local mirrors haven't updated yet... what prevents zypper from having erratic behavior. If you know any docs about it share it with me... It's actually an interesting to look at to know how this is handled.
I don't have documentation or links about this, but believe me it is true. What I know is simply from reading what devs have posted about this on several occasions.
Part of the metadata (the parts vary depending on the openSUSE versions; in recent versions it is less) is always downloaded directly from the openSUSE server, and is cryptographically signed.
If a mirror does not contain the rpm wanted, it can not be downloaded, it will fail; I do not know if the redirector keeps track of what packages contain each mirror and redirect to the appropriate one. I think it does.
If a mirror contains a manipulated rpm, as the metadata is downloaded directly from openSUSE the manipulation should be detected.
However, if your repo list points to the mirrors directly, this is broken.
My repo files have been hacked in the baseurl to use a national mirror, this is mainly because it's updated every four hours and takes advantage of 'gigapix' (PIX = Portuguese Internet eXchange), the major peering point in Portugal for all ISP's, that's the default gay2way for national traffic. But still what you say doesn't make much sense, because the keys are actually the ones from openSUSE, so the RPMs verification should still work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 02:35, Nelson Marques wrote:
2012/5/28 Carlos E. R. <>:
But still what you say doesn't make much sense, because the keys are actually the ones from openSUSE, so the RPMs verification should still work.
And how do you know that they come from them? >:-) Your mirror can sign the metadata and the data with a key that says is from openSUSE but it is not. When you run zypper or yast, you get a message box that says that it has to import a new key, so you do. (There is absolutely no way in what you can verify the origin and validity of those keys) Hacked. >:-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CzOcACgkQIvFNjefEBxp1ewCeLw3chMaoSf1vyYexNbzpi8iy k7UAoLFg5LOlY6oR3+jf/C+QMmU+EMZS =xe4S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2012/5/28 Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 02:35, Nelson Marques wrote:
2012/5/28 Carlos E. R. <>:
But still what you say doesn't make much sense, because the keys are actually the ones from openSUSE, so the RPMs verification should still work.
And how do you know that they come from them? >:-)
Your mirror can sign the metadata and the data with a key that says is from openSUSE but it is not. When you run zypper or yast, you get a message box that says that it has to import a new key, so you do.
(There is absolutely no way in what you can verify the origin and validity of those keys)
Hacked. >:-)
No, openSUSE got hacked and leaked their keys... can you sign RPMS with just the public key ? :) If you do.... then thats quite a feature.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CzOcACgkQIvFNjefEBxp1ewCeLw3chMaoSf1vyYexNbzpi8iy k7UAoLFg5LOlY6oR3+jf/C+QMmU+EMZS =xe4S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 03:00, Nelson Marques wrote:
2012/5/28 Carlos E. R. <>:
Hacked. >:-)
No, openSUSE got hacked and leaked their keys... can you sign RPMS with just the public key ? :) If you do.... then thats quite a feature.
Not openSUSE, you. Think carefully how it works, we are using an incomplete crypto-signature system and it has holes, because we are not following the procedure. The intermediary mirror creates a new signing pair, public and private. The data is opened, and signed again with that new key, and you are offered to accept it, because you can not verify it and know it is a bad one. Look, I can send you a post cryptographically signed as you. I may even upload it to the key servers. People will download it and say: "Hey! this is signed by Nelson, it is his post." You know it is not, I know it is not, but not the rest of the world. How is that possible? Because we neglected the web of trust. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/C0F4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxqzOwCfYuq0ymEqvDHscL52sjkqbPSI wQAAniToitHfk8LTFGim9+BzXO1zwkTs =zA3W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 02:00, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote: On 2012-05-28 01:49, Marguerite Su wrote:
but speed is not a thing I can feel significantly...so maybe I'll have to test enough long.
For the speed, I told you several times already that the data and metadata come for different servers in different countries. Two different sources.
yes, I agree with that. that's my case. because I use download.opensuse.org for OSS and twaren for KR48. KR48 has no descrs, so I mixed them up. but actually the same OSS repository's metadata and data are from the same mirror.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/CwRQACgkQIvFNjefEBxreeQCeNhputj80KSbHj6sYMeX6BLRW AVcAnjIkel+jK78EZgSBqFFEOCw2QnmT =fo9K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 02:12, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Carlos E. R.> <> wrote:
yes, I agree with that. that's my case.
because I use download.opensuse.org for OSS and twaren for KR48.
What I say is that when you download a package for OSS above, the metadata is downloaded directly from download.opensuse.org, but the rpm itself comes for a mirror inside China if available. So you see? Two sources when you want to install, say "gcc". One inside China, fast, one outside, slow. Understand? :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Cx5sACgkQIvFNjefEBxodVQCgxxN9Zj1dtN2RwCW+c2VFTXR4 hTQAn1zYl80fB4DGnPTwyl9e7Pgh7iJe =RBqJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 02:12, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Carlos E. R.> <> wrote:
yes, I agree with that. that's my case.
because I use download.opensuse.org for OSS and twaren for KR48.
What I say is that when you download a package for OSS above, the metadata is downloaded directly from download.opensuse.org, but the rpm itself comes for a mirror inside China if available.
So you see? Two sources when you want to install, say "gcc". One inside China, fast, one outside, slow.
Understand? :-)
understand. it's a mechanism to avoid broken packages on mirrors. and by switching from d.o.o to local mirrors' addresses, such mechanism will not work. but what annoys me is the slow download from outside... so I have to take some risks to make myself happy and satisfied... Marguerite
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/Cx5sACgkQIvFNjefEBxodVQCgxxN9Zj1dtN2RwCW+c2VFTXR4 hTQAn1zYl80fB4DGnPTwyl9e7Pgh7iJe =RBqJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 02:36, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote: On 2012-05-28 02:12, Marguerite Su wrote:
understand.
it's a mechanism to avoid broken packages on mirrors.
Right.
and by switching from d.o.o to local mirrors' addresses, such mechanism will not work.
but what annoys me is the slow download from outside...
Sure. Perhaps you can improve that a bit with the .curlrc file.
so I have to take some risks to make myself happy and satisfied...
Yes, my guess is that using local mirrors only, your experience will be faster. But security is a bit lower. Such is engineering and life... choices. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Czn0ACgkQIvFNjefEBxoJPgCbBJ6kF/5wy0qClCKtO16Li/J5 Nz4An2GuEZInyx9F1Ozwntf3mQcXCBYp =kx1/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
it's a mechanism to avoid broken packages on mirrors.
and by switching from d.o.o to local mirrors' addresses, such mechanism will not work.
but what annoys me is the slow download from outside...
Some time ago I've suggested on this list, IIRC, that the metadata are not transferred completely, but as a diff. yast2 first checks whether the locally stored data are valid, then sends the current version tag to the server, then the server, which is assumed to use git or something similar for revisioning, computes the diff to the current version, signs it, and sends it back. This should reduce the necessary bandwidth *enormously* except for the first time. Werner -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 3:43 AM, Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org> wrote:
it's a mechanism to avoid broken packages on mirrors.
and by switching from d.o.o to local mirrors' addresses, such mechanism will not work.
but what annoys me is the slow download from outside...
Some time ago I've suggested on this list, IIRC, that the metadata are not transferred completely, but as a diff. yast2 first checks whether the locally stored data are valid, then sends the current version tag to the server, then the server, which is assumed to use git or something similar for revisioning, computes the diff to the current version, signs it, and sends it back. This should reduce the necessary bandwidth *enormously* except for the first time.
Or, instead of signing the diff, the patched metadata should pass the signature check. If it doesn't, the full metadata is downloaded as a fallback. That'd be a lot easier to implement - just save, along with the full metadata, incremental patches. Upon a release, a new patch is added, the full metadata updated, with its signature, no significant amount of extra work, and the repo is backwards compatible with those not aware of incremental metadata updates. Patch naming could be based on versions, but a "versioning-system-agnostic" convention could be: repomd.xml.delta<sha1-hash>.diff.gz Where sha1-hash is the hash from the "source" xml file. The system would only have to check for patches from their own version of the xml, and the system doesn't even to be secure (since it will all be validated by the signature anyway). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 28 May 2012 08:43:47 +0200 (CEST) Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org> wrote:
it's a mechanism to avoid broken packages on mirrors.
and by switching from d.o.o to local mirrors' addresses, such mechanism will not work.
but what annoys me is the slow download from outside...
Some time ago I've suggested on this list, IIRC, that the metadata are not transferred completely, but as a diff. yast2 first checks whether the locally stored data are valid, then sends the current version tag to the server, then the server, which is assumed to use git or something similar for revisioning, computes the diff to the current version, signs it, and sends it back. This should reduce the necessary bandwidth *enormously* except for the first time.
Werner
I am not absolutely sure which metadata the discussion is about, but I assume something like this: http://download.opensuse.org/update/12.1/repodata/b55a3d182b709c77784693f284... I just tested, the original gzip compressed version is 7.7MB. Using xz for compression instead reduces the file size to 2.2MB. I assume a change of the compression method (gz->xz) would be a comparatively small change, maybe it could be a first step. Dieter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 11:02 AM, dieter <d_werner@gmx.net> wrote:
I am not absolutely sure which metadata the discussion is about, but I assume something like this: http://download.opensuse.org/update/12.1/repodata/b55a3d182b709c77784693f284...
I just tested, the original gzip compressed version is 7.7MB. Using xz for compression instead reduces the file size to 2.2MB.
Wow, that's a huge difference. My connection isn't as slow as the GFW, but I still have to wait a significant while if I have to download those metadata files again (quite unusual for big repos, but happens from time to time). Shrinking the download 3.5 times is quite significant. The funny thing is I haven't seen that huge compression ratio improvement in source tarballs. Must be something specific to xml. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2012/5/28 Claudio Freire <klaussfreire@gmail.com>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 11:02 AM, dieter <d_werner@gmx.net> wrote:
I am not absolutely sure which metadata the discussion is about, but I assume something like this: http://download.opensuse.org/update/12.1/repodata/b55a3d182b709c77784693f284...
I just tested, the original gzip compressed version is 7.7MB. Using xz for compression instead reduces the file size to 2.2MB.
Wow, that's a huge difference.
My connection isn't as slow as the GFW, but I still have to wait a significant while if I have to download those metadata files again (quite unusual for big repos, but happens from time to time). Shrinking the download 3.5 times is quite significant.
The funny thing is I haven't seen that huge compression ratio improvement in source tarballs. Must be something specific to xml.
The LZMA algorythm kicks a$$. In UH it readuces the sources from 170Mbs to 120Mb ;) GNOME is using now xz, and rpm 4.10.0 supports it natively. It's coming dude :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 2012-05-28 17:27, Nelson Marques wrote:
2012/5/28 Claudio Freire <klaussfreire@gmail.com>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 11:02 AM, dieter <d_werner@gmx.net> wrote:
I am not absolutely sure which metadata the discussion is about, but I assume something like this: http://download.opensuse.org/update/12.1/repodata/b55a3d182b709c77784693f284...
I just tested, the original gzip compressed version is 7.7MB. Using xz for compression instead reduces the file size to 2.2MB.
Wow, that's a huge difference.
My connection isn't as slow as the GFW, but I still have to wait a significant while if I have to download those metadata files again (quite unusual for big repos, but happens from time to time). Shrinking the download 3.5 times is quite significant.
The funny thing is I haven't seen that huge compression ratio improvement in source tarballs. Must be something specific to xml.
The LZMA algorythm kicks a$$. In UH it readuces the sources from 170Mbs to 120Mb ;) GNOME is using now xz, and rpm 4.10.0 supports it natively. It's coming dude :)
rpm already knows xzdio since 4.8. It is nothing new really. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
The funny thing is I haven't seen that huge compression ratio improvement in source tarballs. Must be something specific to xml.
The LZMA algorythm kicks a$$. In UH it readuces the sources from 170Mbs to 120Mb ;) GNOME is using now xz, and rpm 4.10.0 supports it natively. It's coming dude :)
Not that much - I've studied the algorithm a while ago and it really needs a very long input string to converge towards optimal entropy. I think it has something to do with xml's limited vocabulary (very few symbols in the language's alphabet) that makes it converge faster than other algorithms. In any case, I digress. My point, 170 vs 120 is a lot less than 7.7 to 2.2. One is a (significant, but slight) 30% reduction, when the other is a three-fold reduction. It still can't beat the "order of magnitude" kind of reduction that would be achievable by shipping deltas. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 28 May 2012 12:42:39 -0300 Claudio Freire <klaussfreire@gmail.com> wrote:
My point, 170 vs 120 is a lot less than 7.7 to 2.2. One is a (significant, but slight) 30% reduction, when the other is a three-fold reduction. It still can't beat the "order of magnitude" kind of reduction that would be achievable by shipping deltas.
I agree that deltas can - and generally will - be significantly smaller, like the drpm packages for updates. What I wanted to point out: the gzipped xml metadata files in the update directory of 12.1 are now something like 23MB all together. http://download.opensuse.org/update/12.1/repodata/ All of them are changed whenever a new update is available and will be downloaded whenever a user does "you" or something similar. Probably very often these metadata files present a bigger download amount then the actual drpm update packages. I was also surprised that the xz "version" of the xml files is only 1/3 of the gz "version". :-) Dieter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 28.05.2012 16:02, schrieb dieter:
On Mon, 28 May 2012 08:43:47 +0200 (CEST) Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org> wrote:
it's a mechanism to avoid broken packages on mirrors.
and by switching from d.o.o to local mirrors' addresses, such mechanism will not work.
but what annoys me is the slow download from outside...
Some time ago I've suggested on this list, IIRC, that the metadata are not transferred completely, but as a diff. yast2 first checks whether the locally stored data are valid, then sends the current version tag to the server, then the server, which is assumed to use git or something similar for revisioning, computes the diff to the current version, signs it, and sends it back. This should reduce the necessary bandwidth *enormously* except for the first time.
Werner
I am not absolutely sure which metadata the discussion is about, but I assume something like this: http://download.opensuse.org/update/12.1/repodata/b55a3d182b709c77784693f284...
I just tested, the original gzip compressed version is 7.7MB. Using xz for compression instead reduces the file size to 2.2MB.
I assume a change of the compression method (gz->xz) would be a comparatively small change, maybe it could be a first step.
Unfortunately repomd requires .gz - we can't break other people's tools. But we thought about offering both and then zypper picks it. But the meta data with numbers in the file name are not the problem, the problem are those that haven't (like packages.en.gz) - those are not redirected to mirrors and are coming straight from Bavaria -> *SLOW*! But the good news: only for factory, for released products we do redirect to mirrors. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/28/2012 08:28 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
But the meta data with numbers in the file name are not the problem, the problem are those that haven't (like packages.en.gz) - those are not redirected to mirrors and are coming straight from Bavaria -> *SLOW*!
But the good news: only for factory, for released products we do redirect to mirrors.
I am looking forward to see how big the metadata grows by adding 6000+ packages (TeX) -- Duncan Mac-Vicar P. - http://www.suse.com/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 29.05.2012 09:50, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:
On 05/28/2012 08:28 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
But the meta data with numbers in the file name are not the problem, the problem are those that haven't (like packages.en.gz) - those are not redirected to mirrors and are coming straight from Bavaria -> *SLOW*!
But the good news: only for factory, for released products we do redirect to mirrors.
I am looking forward to see how big the metadata grows by adding 6000+ packages (TeX)
Yeah, we have plenty of packagers that add tons of provides to their packages (tex and kernels being the most prominent) without thinking about the consequences to *all* users ;( Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 2012-05-29 10:06, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 29.05.2012 09:50, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:
On 05/28/2012 08:28 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
But the meta data with numbers in the file name are not the problem, the problem are those that haven't (like packages.en.gz) - those are not redirected to mirrors and are coming straight from Bavaria -> *SLOW*!
But the good news: only for factory, for released products we do redirect to mirrors.
I am looking forward to see how big the metadata grows by adding 6000+ packages (TeX)
Yeah, we have plenty of packagers that add tons of provides to their packages (tex and kernels being the most prominent) without thinking about the consequences to *all* users ;(
We should sweep the Provides/Obsoletes clean within the next cycle. Especially those old #bug437293 %ifarch ppc64 Obsoletes: blah-64bit %endif -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 20:28, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 28.05.2012 16:02, schrieb dieter:
But the meta data with numbers in the file name are not the problem, the problem are those that haven't (like packages.en.gz) - those are not redirected to mirrors and are coming straight from Bavaria -> *SLOW*!
But the good news: only for factory, for released products we do redirect to mirrors.
Is this correct now, for the normal distro no metadata comes directly from openSUSE now, everything from the mirrors? IMO, that is a security concern. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/EsisACgkQIvFNjefEBxrP0ACeKJBLZYqqyj06o0XHlpvmZrcz LuEAn2Dndxnto4Ulyn24nNS3kBRo5TjO =vYZN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 29 May 2012 13:25:31 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
But the good news: only for factory, for released products we do redirect to mirrors.
Is this correct now, for the normal distro no metadata comes directly from openSUSE now, everything from the mirrors?
IMO, that is a security concern.
I *hope* the security never depends on the server but on cryptographically signing the files - and verifying the validity of the signature before using them. Dieter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 01:38:07PM +0200, dieter wrote:
On Tue, 29 May 2012 13:25:31 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
But the good news: only for factory, for released products we do redirect to mirrors.
Is this correct now, for the normal distro no metadata comes directly from openSUSE now, everything from the mirrors?
IMO, that is a security concern.
I *hope* the security never depends on the server but on cryptographically signing the files - and verifying the validity of the signature before using them.
Depends on where you got the install media from. If you ensure integrity of the install medium, everything else gets GPG key based checking. CIao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-29 13:38, dieter wrote:
On Tue, 29 May 2012 13:25:31 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
IMO, that is a security concern.
I *hope* the security never depends on the server but on cryptographically signing the files - and verifying the validity of the signature before using them.
Verifying the signatures is not possible, they are not listed on a secure server. Even the DVD could be rewritten by a rogue mirror with false signatures. A lot of work, but doable. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/EycAACgkQIvFNjefEBxrcLQCgpRfknM1X9fxtXaiPVd3MO3/G tfgAoJCtlS/nM/j00HliyNOIPtjm8LHo =LcM8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Can't openSUSE do the same as RHEL and use certificate based repo's ? Wouldn't that fix the issue ? (couldn't be that hard to port the yum plugin to zypp) NM 2012/5/29 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-29 13:38, dieter wrote:
On Tue, 29 May 2012 13:25:31 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
IMO, that is a security concern.
I *hope* the security never depends on the server but on cryptographically signing the files - and verifying the validity of the signature before using them.
Verifying the signatures is not possible, they are not listed on a secure server.
Even the DVD could be rewritten by a rogue mirror with false signatures. A lot of work, but doable.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/EycAACgkQIvFNjefEBxrcLQCgpRfknM1X9fxtXaiPVd3MO3/G tfgAoJCtlS/nM/j00HliyNOIPtjm8LHo =LcM8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
I *hope* the security never depends on the server but on cryptographically signing the files - and verifying the validity of the signature before using them.
Verifying the signatures is not possible, they are not listed on a secure server.
What is a secure server?
Even the DVD could be rewritten by a rogue mirror with false signatures. A lot of work, but doable.
Assuming (and it's no small assumption) that you trust the signing key, that is not possible. How do you get to trust a signing key? Well... you have a leap of faith the first time you configure a repo. How do you avoid that leap of faith? With an official page that lists official repo's key checksums that uses https signed by a trustworthy CA. And the user has to check. If he/she doesn't... leap of faith it is still. That still assumes you have software trustworthily configured with the CA roots, which is not the case for install medium. Unless you downloaded the medium from a properly authenticated https server. And round and round it goes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-29 16:36, Claudio Freire wrote:
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
I *hope* the security never depends on the server but on cryptographically signing the files - and verifying the validity of the signature before using them.
Verifying the signatures is not possible, they are not listed on a secure server.
What is a secure server?
https
Even the DVD could be rewritten by a rogue mirror with false signatures. A lot of work, but doable.
Assuming (and it's no small assumption) that you trust the signing key, that is not possible. How do you get to trust a signing key? Well... you have a leap of faith the first time you configure a repo. How do you avoid that leap of faith? With an official page that lists official repo's key checksums that uses https signed by a trustworthy CA. And the user has to check. If he/she doesn't... leap of faith it is still.
That is my point. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/E3+YACgkQIvFNjefEBxoRMwCgnsK9tZgpm+Sncm8fqwUQa38C HNcAn1AwIH4PpiNysC/lb5u/p2H8Ac02 =LcBz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Marguerite Su wrote:
because actually I disabled ipv6 in NetworkManager configuration after I knew there's no ipv6 in China.....
http://news.cnet.com/China-launches-largest-IPv6-network/2100-1025_3-5506914... http://www.ipv6.org.au/09ipv6summit/talks/OrcunTezel.pdf http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/indepth/2011-02/22/c_13744188.htm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:08 AM, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
http://news.cnet.com/China-launches-largest-IPv6-network/2100-1025_3-5506914... http://www.ipv6.org.au/09ipv6summit/talks/OrcunTezel.pdf http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/indepth/2011-02/22/c_13744188.htm
It's not for citizens. like office workers, farmers. but for university students. in China, a small group of universities has their own local-network( called edu-network). it uses different gateways. connect directly to the international traffic. so it's like visiting other countries' local network...such ipv6 won't benefit us who are not students any more. as the news itself said: "The China _Education_ and Research Network Information Center", it's edu-network's control center... it's not even an open ISP. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Marguerite: edit your repo files (in /etc/zypp/repos.d) and change the baseurl to the best mirror you know and it should work, that is the best way out for your situation according to what has been said. :) The systax is easy to understand. NM 2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:31 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-05-28 00:18, Nelson Marques wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <>:
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ?
You should remember that normally the metadata is downloaded directly from opensuse.org, but the rpms are downloaded from local mirrors. And being China, there is the Great Firewall in between.
Even without that great thing you get different speed.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk/Cq0wACgkQIvFNjefEBxr51ACgj+T/GZ5pR2YjKhyOFsclZqRi JCkAoJmSg1rufGgflEOr9ZuHKh0C2wG1 =+eKr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
sorry guys,
clear some my mistakes.
1. only oss and non-oss has package.locale.gz
there're only translation file. so no way to "merge" between repos.
2. and zypper only caches en, DU and your locale.
here DU doesn't mean German. but some codes.
seems it's what Nelson said "solve dependencies".
so does package.gz
3. local mirrors do cache such descriptions.
so it's reasonable and no fault or mistake on design.
I should try digging to find out why it's so slow in my area.
Thanks
Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
在 2012-5-28 上午3:25，"Nelson Marques" <nmo.marques@gmail.com>写道：
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
Hi, all,
users complained to me many times about yast2's slowness on forums.o.o, twitter or gtalk groups. (of course in a form of flame war like apt vs. yast, yum vs. yast...I don't want to say much about that.)
I didn't believe it, until today I broke my zypp cache, and had to retrieve them all...and I found many ugly things. let me be clear one by one.
1. yast-ncurses.
you have to use `LANG=en zypper [option]` if you set your locale to non-En environment.
or texts will be displayed as unreadable ??????.
see screenshot: http://paste.opensuse.org/40229867
any ideas on this one？
2. if you broke your zypp cache, yast-ncurses will always tell you that you have insufficient permissions so can only see part of its modules, even you logged in with root. (maybe not producible)
3. yast have to download every local package descrs, no matter whether you need it or not.
Yes, you and everyone else. It's that metadata that allows zypper to resolve dependencies and other things. If you don't have it available you defeat the whole purpose of a repository.
I think just download packages.en.gz and packages.your_locale.gz will be enough. (nowadays it downloads all of them...du, kr, zh_TW, pl, blabla...)
and it's the cause of its slowness..
it took me 40 minutes to refresh it all...even with local mirrors on.
You most likely have a transparent proxy somewhere in the middle that is introducing erratic behavior or limiting down; that sounds the most reasonable explanation.
hi，nelson，
do you mean some isp slow me down in the middle of the transition from server to me？
I am not network expert...I cant quite follow this part
Yes, there can be a problem somewhere in the network, and it might be bottlenecking somewhere, which could cause issues on your end.
I'll switch all my repo from d.o.o to twaren then try again. if that comes faster...I'll change all the links on zh.o.o wiki to guide new users.
I have a 4MB download speed, but can only download at a speed of < 10KB/s.
I can top my home line to 1.2Mbytes/sec (12Mbit ADSL); And I can get far more higher speeds through my office.
yes.
so are you suggesting me upgrading my internet plan to use opensuse？like buy a new computer to install opensuse？
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ?
yes...actually I highly suspect the Eu-Asia continent fiber-wire lost its speed into China. (because I never see any Russian guys complain about slowness of yast.) I'll do some traceroute and see.
Now, depending on the type of your connection there can be lots of factors, from transparent proxies, to network bottlenecks on your ISP side, crazed routing tables, etc.
For example, ADSL connections you have phisical factors, like the distance between your house to the central that serves you, etc.
if my computer is obsolete. i will. but actually 4mb is the largest internet speed in Chinese...I can't immigrate only to update my opensuse box. right？
so the question I want to ask is how to or is there any possible way to speed zypper refresh based on the infrastructure I have.
There's nothing you or anyone else can do on zypper if the problem is related with a network bottleneck for example or crazed routing tables.
I knew it's slow, but I don't know it's that slow...
the standard procedure to use yast is: a. launch b. min it and do something else c. after half an hour, operate, min it again d. wait until it closes itself.
I think we really need to improve it. like:
(1) try merge package descrs among repositories. most of same packages' descrs among repos are the same. we don't need to download it several times.
I would belive that this would introduce chaos and havoc in operational theaters that contemplate concorrent repositories. Why should my repo metadata be replaced by some other repo metadata? Simples example:
- My repo has a version of PostgreSQL without UUID support. If you merge metada and mine gets replaced with the one from a repo which has PostgreSQL built with UUID support, users will most likely get a broken PostgreSQL. You will blow up the majority of systems with concorrent repositories.
do you mean packages.en.gz is used to solve dependencies？I think they are just translations. I never mean to merge oss and k：d：l contents together. but packages descr. eg %description instead of gpg keys....or rpms themeselves.
If we are talking about the files in 'repodata' or similiar depending if it's rpm-db or yast2 (which I believe we are), those files are created so that the package manager tools (zypper, yum) can read the metadata from the RPMs available instead of querying them all.
So if you so for example a query on zypper and you dont have those files, there's an error. If you rmeove info from those files, it can lead to malformed dependencies.
Like I said in my last email, there's most likely a global community living from those repos, you might not have interest on descriptions, but I and other people have.
yes. but actually we were talking about different things... I was talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.locale.gz and you were talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.gz and packge.DU.gz although they look like the same thing. but actually they're different... and I didn't see anything is repodata controls dependencies. dependencies seems to be solved by RPM program itself. :)
eg：you may have two packages in different repos with the same %description. then why do we need to download such descriptions twice？
If dump a lot of RPMs into a directory and you run 'createrepo' on it. It extracts the metadata from all RPMs and creates those file lists or injects it into a sqlite database. This information (like I said before) is used by the package manager tools (zypper) to resolve dependencies and show information to the user.
Try to search a bit for what RPM NEVRA is.
packages.en.gz has nothing to do with dependencies. or specfiles
Then we are maybe speaking of different things. I was assuming you were mentioning the files on 'repodata'. If they are... we shouldnt mess with them.
they are copied out simple texts by coolo's script work in i18n 50-tools
(2) make a daemon to download them in background when system starts.
Uncool stuff and bloat. How would that feature help a system with 1000 days uptime? You can easilly setup a local repo with mrepo and run a local mirror to overcome all the dificulties you are presenting.
yes.
but I dont know how...
someone said descrs are downloaded from suse original server and packages are downloaded from mirrors.
so to me it means I can get a fast speed if I set up a server to fetch all rpms from a mirror and install them by rpm command. or if I use yast，I have to download descrs from original server. that will be slow.
if I have such server，why I still use yast....
(3) give user options to not download and display descrs/summaries, but to find and install only using package names.
You are away that by doing such, you are suggesting that we strip off zypper functionality that will affect dependency resolution? How will this help? For example:
- # zypper install /usr/bin/ssh
Now what does zypper do if he can't access the repo metadata? :)
do you mean package.en.gz is metadata controling dependencies？
Well maybe we need some yast expert to tell us....because I translated such packages.en.gz and didnt find any dependencies in it. I dont know if there are autoscripts adding such dependencies to my translations.
I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them, neither I want to be.
if there is. it will be design default. because rpm dont know chinese...how can it solve dependencies in packages.zh_cn.gz？
just some ideas in thin air....I don't how to implement it.
PS: I think we should remove the "OSS might be slow" string from translations and yast itself.
a warning is something you can avoid and don't do it. but repositories?
you have to enable it not matter how many warnings it warns, if you want to do things using it.
but are those things dangerous or risky? no. come on, it's our own OSS repo. it's just slow.
and can you avoid that slow? no...
so it sounds to warn users something they can't change. useless and feels forcibly.
it does us more harms than benefits if you think it deeper.
we give our users a bad first impression that it is slow, so it has to be fast like a flash to change their such minds.
Please consider that there is a world outside China ;)
yes...
without any part， it cant be called world...so we have to solve the problem in the worst place instead of the best place...
actually，off topic，opensuse has little users in China partially because it is hard to download（big iso）and update （slow yast）. most people's internet speed is even slower than mine....
What I meant is that openSUSE serves a global community, therefore, because I only use English, doesnt mean that German, Russian, Portuguese and other should be removed on behalf of my own needs because there are other people for which those are important.
yes. it seems openSUSE has done it well. because zypp will download locale descriptions.(if translators contribute such translations.)
greetings，marguerite
from my Android.
Regards
Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
2012/5/28 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
在 2012-5-28 上午3:25，"Nelson Marques" <nmo.marques@gmail.com>写道：
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
Hi, all,
users complained to me many times about yast2's slowness on forums.o.o, twitter or gtalk groups. (of course in a form of flame war like apt vs. yast, yum vs. yast...I don't want to say much about that.)
I didn't believe it, until today I broke my zypp cache, and had to retrieve them all...and I found many ugly things. let me be clear one by one.
1. yast-ncurses.
you have to use `LANG=en zypper [option]` if you set your locale to non-En environment.
or texts will be displayed as unreadable ??????.
see screenshot: http://paste.opensuse.org/40229867
any ideas on this one？
2. if you broke your zypp cache, yast-ncurses will always tell you that you have insufficient permissions so can only see part of its modules, even you logged in with root. (maybe not producible)
3. yast have to download every local package descrs, no matter whether you need it or not.
Yes, you and everyone else. It's that metadata that allows zypper to resolve dependencies and other things. If you don't have it available you defeat the whole purpose of a repository.
I think just download packages.en.gz and packages.your_locale.gz will be enough. (nowadays it downloads all of them...du, kr, zh_TW, pl, blabla...)
and it's the cause of its slowness..
it took me 40 minutes to refresh it all...even with local mirrors on.
You most likely have a transparent proxy somewhere in the middle that is introducing erratic behavior or limiting down; that sounds the most reasonable explanation.
hi，nelson，
do you mean some isp slow me down in the middle of the transition from server to me？
I am not network expert...I cant quite follow this part
Yes, there can be a problem somewhere in the network, and it might be bottlenecking somewhere, which could cause issues on your end.
I'll switch all my repo from d.o.o to twaren then try again.
if that comes faster...I'll change all the links on zh.o.o wiki to guide new users.
I have a 4MB download speed, but can only download at a speed of < 10KB/s.
I can top my home line to 1.2Mbytes/sec (12Mbit ADSL); And I can get far more higher speeds through my office.
yes.
so are you suggesting me upgrading my internet plan to use opensuse？like buy a new computer to install opensuse？
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ?
yes...actually I highly suspect the Eu-Asia continent fiber-wire lost its speed into China. (because I never see any Russian guys complain about slowness of yast.)
I'll do some traceroute and see.
Now, depending on the type of your connection there can be lots of factors, from transparent proxies, to network bottlenecks on your ISP side, crazed routing tables, etc.
For example, ADSL connections you have phisical factors, like the distance between your house to the central that serves you, etc.
if my computer is obsolete. i will. but actually 4mb is the largest internet speed in Chinese...I can't immigrate only to update my opensuse box. right？
so the question I want to ask is how to or is there any possible way to speed zypper refresh based on the infrastructure I have.
There's nothing you or anyone else can do on zypper if the problem is related with a network bottleneck for example or crazed routing tables.
I knew it's slow, but I don't know it's that slow...
the standard procedure to use yast is: a. launch b. min it and do something else c. after half an hour, operate, min it again d. wait until it closes itself.
I think we really need to improve it. like:
(1) try merge package descrs among repositories. most of same packages' descrs among repos are the same. we don't need to download it several times.
I would belive that this would introduce chaos and havoc in operational theaters that contemplate concorrent repositories. Why should my repo metadata be replaced by some other repo metadata? Simples example:
- My repo has a version of PostgreSQL without UUID support. If you merge metada and mine gets replaced with the one from a repo which has PostgreSQL built with UUID support, users will most likely get a broken PostgreSQL. You will blow up the majority of systems with concorrent repositories.
do you mean packages.en.gz is used to solve dependencies？I think they are just translations. I never mean to merge oss and k：d：l contents together. but packages descr. eg %description instead of gpg keys....or rpms themeselves.
If we are talking about the files in 'repodata' or similiar depending if it's rpm-db or yast2 (which I believe we are), those files are created so that the package manager tools (zypper, yum) can read the metadata from the RPMs available instead of querying them all.
So if you so for example a query on zypper and you dont have those files, there's an error. If you rmeove info from those files, it can lead to malformed dependencies.
Like I said in my last email, there's most likely a global community living from those repos, you might not have interest on descriptions, but I and other people have.
yes. but actually we were talking about different things...
I was talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.locale.gz
It's most likely the same thing because you can have the description fields in the RPM with translations, for example in one spec file we can have multiple summaries for different languages. I would suppose they will get splitted somewhere. So they are the same thing except the package.locale.gz has the metadata that is provided for your location, right ? :) (I might be wrong though).
and you were talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.gz and packge.DU.gz
although they look like the same thing. but actually they're different...
maybe because not everything gets translated? and those which haven't local translations dont go into local.gz ?
and I didn't see anything is repodata controls dependencies.
When you do something like 'zypper search foobar' it searches those files with the metadata for a package named foobar. If you dont have those files zypper can't find anything. So if package 'foo' has a dependency on 'foobar' thats how zypper resolves the dependencies, by reading those files (if I'm wrong, someone correct me). Same goes for files, versions etc... Why this is done this way? Simple... Imagine that you have a repo with 10.000 files... if everytime a user queries the repo for something it has to open all the 10.000 RPMs to read the metadata, imagine the overhead in I/O it would create. Not saying it's perfect! But so far it works nice... You have the option also to save that information on SQLite databases instead of the traditional files, wich is useful if you have some sort of application doing some management on the repository itself.
dependencies seems to be solved by RPM program itself. :)
RPM can«t find dependencies from stuff that isn't installed. Zypper does it based on repository metadata. If I am wrong, then someone correct me ;)
eg：you may have two packages in different repos with the same %description. then why do we need to download such descriptions twice？
If dump a lot of RPMs into a directory and you run 'createrepo' on it. It extracts the metadata from all RPMs and creates those file lists or injects it into a sqlite database. This information (like I said before) is used by the package manager tools (zypper) to resolve dependencies and show information to the user.
Try to search a bit for what RPM NEVRA is.
packages.en.gz has nothing to do with dependencies. or specfiles
Then we are maybe speaking of different things. I was assuming you were mentioning the files on 'repodata'. If they are... we shouldnt mess with them.
they are copied out simple texts by coolo's script work in i18n 50-tools
(2) make a daemon to download them in background when system starts.
Uncool stuff and bloat. How would that feature help a system with 1000 days uptime? You can easilly setup a local repo with mrepo and run a local mirror to overcome all the dificulties you are presenting.
yes.
but I dont know how...
someone said descrs are downloaded from suse original server and packages are downloaded from mirrors.
so to me it means I can get a fast speed if I set up a server to fetch all rpms from a mirror and install them by rpm command. or if I use yast，I have to download descrs from original server. that will be slow.
if I have such server，why I still use yast....
(3) give user options to not download and display descrs/summaries, but to find and install only using package names.
You are away that by doing such, you are suggesting that we strip off zypper functionality that will affect dependency resolution? How will this help? For example:
- # zypper install /usr/bin/ssh
Now what does zypper do if he can't access the repo metadata? :)
do you mean package.en.gz is metadata controling dependencies？
Well maybe we need some yast expert to tell us....because I translated such packages.en.gz and didnt find any dependencies in it. I dont know if there are autoscripts adding such dependencies to my translations.
I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them, neither I want to be.
if there is. it will be design default. because rpm dont know chinese...how can it solve dependencies in packages.zh_cn.gz？
just some ideas in thin air....I don't how to implement it.
PS: I think we should remove the "OSS might be slow" string from translations and yast itself.
a warning is something you can avoid and don't do it. but repositories?
you have to enable it not matter how many warnings it warns, if you want to do things using it.
but are those things dangerous or risky? no. come on, it's our own OSS repo. it's just slow.
and can you avoid that slow? no...
so it sounds to warn users something they can't change. useless and feels forcibly.
it does us more harms than benefits if you think it deeper.
we give our users a bad first impression that it is slow, so it has to be fast like a flash to change their such minds.
Please consider that there is a world outside China ;)
yes...
without any part， it cant be called world...so we have to solve the problem in the worst place instead of the best place...
actually，off topic，opensuse has little users in China partially because it is hard to download（big iso）and update （slow yast）. most people's internet speed is even slower than mine....
What I meant is that openSUSE serves a global community, therefore, because I only use English, doesnt mean that German, Russian, Portuguese and other should be removed on behalf of my own needs because there are other people for which those are important.
yes.
it seems openSUSE has done it well. because zypp will download locale descriptions.(if translators contribute such translations.)
greetings，marguerite
from my Android.
Regards
Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
Marguerite
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/28 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
在 2012-5-28 上午3:25，"Nelson Marques" <nmo.marques@gmail.com>写道：
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
Hi, all,
users complained to me many times about yast2's slowness on forums.o.o, twitter or gtalk groups. (of course in a form of flame war like apt vs. yast, yum vs. yast...I don't want to say much about that.)
I didn't believe it, until today I broke my zypp cache, and had to retrieve them all...and I found many ugly things. let me be clear one by one.
1. yast-ncurses.
you have to use `LANG=en zypper [option]` if you set your locale to non-En environment.
or texts will be displayed as unreadable ??????.
see screenshot: http://paste.opensuse.org/40229867
any ideas on this one？
2. if you broke your zypp cache, yast-ncurses will always tell you that you have insufficient permissions so can only see part of its modules, even you logged in with root. (maybe not producible)
3. yast have to download every local package descrs, no matter whether you need it or not.
Yes, you and everyone else. It's that metadata that allows zypper to resolve dependencies and other things. If you don't have it available you defeat the whole purpose of a repository.
I think just download packages.en.gz and packages.your_locale.gz will be enough. (nowadays it downloads all of them...du, kr, zh_TW, pl, blabla...)
and it's the cause of its slowness..
it took me 40 minutes to refresh it all...even with local mirrors on.
You most likely have a transparent proxy somewhere in the middle that is introducing erratic behavior or limiting down; that sounds the most reasonable explanation.
hi，nelson，
do you mean some isp slow me down in the middle of the transition from server to me？
I am not network expert...I cant quite follow this part
Yes, there can be a problem somewhere in the network, and it might be bottlenecking somewhere, which could cause issues on your end.
I'll switch all my repo from d.o.o to twaren then try again.
if that comes faster...I'll change all the links on zh.o.o wiki to guide new users.
I have a 4MB download speed, but can only download at a speed of < 10KB/s.
I can top my home line to 1.2Mbytes/sec (12Mbit ADSL); And I can get far more higher speeds through my office.
yes.
so are you suggesting me upgrading my internet plan to use opensuse？like buy a new computer to install opensuse？
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ?
yes...actually I highly suspect the Eu-Asia continent fiber-wire lost its speed into China. (because I never see any Russian guys complain about slowness of yast.)
I'll do some traceroute and see.
Now, depending on the type of your connection there can be lots of factors, from transparent proxies, to network bottlenecks on your ISP side, crazed routing tables, etc.
For example, ADSL connections you have phisical factors, like the distance between your house to the central that serves you, etc.
if my computer is obsolete. i will. but actually 4mb is the largest internet speed in Chinese...I can't immigrate only to update my opensuse box. right？
so the question I want to ask is how to or is there any possible way to speed zypper refresh based on the infrastructure I have.
There's nothing you or anyone else can do on zypper if the problem is related with a network bottleneck for example or crazed routing tables.
I knew it's slow, but I don't know it's that slow...
the standard procedure to use yast is: a. launch b. min it and do something else c. after half an hour, operate, min it again d. wait until it closes itself.
I think we really need to improve it. like:
(1) try merge package descrs among repositories. most of same packages' descrs among repos are the same. we don't need to download it several times.
I would belive that this would introduce chaos and havoc in operational theaters that contemplate concorrent repositories. Why should my repo metadata be replaced by some other repo metadata? Simples example:
- My repo has a version of PostgreSQL without UUID support. If you merge metada and mine gets replaced with the one from a repo which has PostgreSQL built with UUID support, users will most likely get a broken PostgreSQL. You will blow up the majority of systems with concorrent repositories.
do you mean packages.en.gz is used to solve dependencies？I think they are just translations. I never mean to merge oss and k：d：l contents together. but packages descr. eg %description instead of gpg keys....or rpms themeselves.
If we are talking about the files in 'repodata' or similiar depending if it's rpm-db or yast2 (which I believe we are), those files are created so that the package manager tools (zypper, yum) can read the metadata from the RPMs available instead of querying them all.
So if you so for example a query on zypper and you dont have those files, there's an error. If you rmeove info from those files, it can lead to malformed dependencies.
Like I said in my last email, there's most likely a global community living from those repos, you might not have interest on descriptions, but I and other people have.
yes. but actually we were talking about different things...
I was talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.locale.gz
It's most likely the same thing because you can have the description fields in the RPM with translations, for example in one spec file we can have multiple summaries for different languages.
I would suppose they will get splitted somewhere. So they are the same thing except the package.locale.gz has the metadata that is provided for your location, right ? :)
(I might be wrong though).
nope. Adrian said once on build-service ML. if you did that (multiple summaries/descriptions), you have to maintain all the openSUSE supported languages on your own... but that's also not exact...because nowadays yast can't parse those localed summaries/descriptions at all. if you write them in spec, it's just got ignored. coolo's 50-tools script only reads *.spec and withdraw English summaries and descriptions, then insert them into a big .pot file for translators. and those translated .po will be used to create package.locale.gz. actually there're no metadata...but just plain translated summaries and descriptions...it's yast that parse them and inset the translations into the right place.
and you were talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.gz and packge.DU.gz
although they look like the same thing. but actually they're different...
maybe because not everything gets translated? and those which haven't local translations dont go into local.gz ?
nope. "not everything get translated" is right. there're 40000+ packages in such pot....almost the number of items of the whole openSUSE. no one can translate them all... but package.gz and package.DU.gz don't contain any summaries and descriptions. they contain libraries' and binaries' names (like /usr/bin/bash) and some numbers.( I don't know what they're for.) all summaries and descriptions are in package.en.gz.
and I didn't see anything is repodata controls dependencies.
When you do something like 'zypper search foobar' it searches those files with the metadata for a package named foobar. If you dont have those files zypper can't find anything. So if package 'foo' has a dependency on 'foobar' thats how zypper resolves the dependencies, by reading those files (if I'm wrong, someone correct me).
it's done by /var/cache/zypp/raw/*/repodata/*-primary.xml.gz normal repositories (not oss or non-oss) do not have a ./suse/setup/ directory. so it can't be ./suse/setup/package.gz to solve dependencies....
Same goes for files, versions etc... Why this is done this way? Simple... Imagine that you have a repo with 10.000 files... if everytime a user queries the repo for something it has to open all the 10.000 RPMs to read the metadata, imagine the overhead in I/O it would create.
Not saying it's perfect! But so far it works nice... You have the option also to save that information on SQLite databases instead of the traditional files, wich is useful if you have some sort of application doing some management on the repository itself.
dependencies seems to be solved by RPM program itself. :)
RPM can«t find dependencies from stuff that isn't installed. Zypper does it based on repository metadata. If I am wrong, then someone correct me ;)
eg：you may have two packages in different repos with the same %description. then why do we need to download such descriptions twice？
If dump a lot of RPMs into a directory and you run 'createrepo' on it. It extracts the metadata from all RPMs and creates those file lists or injects it into a sqlite database. This information (like I said before) is used by the package manager tools (zypper) to resolve dependencies and show information to the user.
Try to search a bit for what RPM NEVRA is.
packages.en.gz has nothing to do with dependencies. or specfiles
Then we are maybe speaking of different things. I was assuming you were mentioning the files on 'repodata'. If they are... we shouldnt mess with them.
they are copied out simple texts by coolo's script work in i18n 50-tools
(2) make a daemon to download them in background when system starts.
Uncool stuff and bloat. How would that feature help a system with 1000 days uptime? You can easilly setup a local repo with mrepo and run a local mirror to overcome all the dificulties you are presenting.
yes.
but I dont know how...
someone said descrs are downloaded from suse original server and packages are downloaded from mirrors.
so to me it means I can get a fast speed if I set up a server to fetch all rpms from a mirror and install them by rpm command. or if I use yast，I have to download descrs from original server. that will be slow.
if I have such server，why I still use yast....
(3) give user options to not download and display descrs/summaries, but to find and install only using package names.
You are away that by doing such, you are suggesting that we strip off zypper functionality that will affect dependency resolution? How will this help? For example:
- # zypper install /usr/bin/ssh
Now what does zypper do if he can't access the repo metadata? :)
do you mean package.en.gz is metadata controling dependencies？
Well maybe we need some yast expert to tell us....because I translated such packages.en.gz and didnt find any dependencies in it. I dont know if there are autoscripts adding such dependencies to my translations.
I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them, neither I want to be.
if there is. it will be design default. because rpm dont know chinese...how can it solve dependencies in packages.zh_cn.gz？
just some ideas in thin air....I don't how to implement it.
PS: I think we should remove the "OSS might be slow" string from translations and yast itself.
a warning is something you can avoid and don't do it. but repositories?
you have to enable it not matter how many warnings it warns, if you want to do things using it.
but are those things dangerous or risky? no. come on, it's our own OSS repo. it's just slow.
and can you avoid that slow? no...
so it sounds to warn users something they can't change. useless and feels forcibly.
it does us more harms than benefits if you think it deeper.
we give our users a bad first impression that it is slow, so it has to be fast like a flash to change their such minds.
Please consider that there is a world outside China ;)
yes...
without any part， it cant be called world...so we have to solve the problem in the worst place instead of the best place...
actually，off topic，opensuse has little users in China partially because it is hard to download（big iso）and update （slow yast）. most people's internet speed is even slower than mine....
What I meant is that openSUSE serves a global community, therefore, because I only use English, doesnt mean that German, Russian, Portuguese and other should be removed on behalf of my own needs because there are other people for which those are important.
yes.
it seems openSUSE has done it well. because zypp will download locale descriptions.(if translators contribute such translations.)
greetings，marguerite
from my Android.
Regards
Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
Marguerite
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Ok, sounds fair. I'm not really a zypper expert, but from what I know from traditional YUM I assumed it was close to it. I rest my case then :) 2012/5/28 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/28 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
在 2012-5-28 上午3:25，"Nelson Marques" <nmo.marques@gmail.com>写道：
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>: > Hi, all, > > users complained to me many times about yast2's slowness on > forums.o.o, twitter or gtalk groups. (of course in a form of flame war > like apt vs. yast, yum vs. yast...I don't want to say much about > that.) > > I didn't believe it, until today I broke my zypp cache, and had to > retrieve them all...and I found many ugly things. let me be clear one > by one. > > 1. yast-ncurses. > > you have to use `LANG=en zypper [option]` if you set your locale to > non-En environment. > > or texts will be displayed as unreadable ??????. > > see screenshot: http://paste.opensuse.org/40229867 >
any ideas on this one？
> 2. if you broke your zypp cache, yast-ncurses will always tell you > that you have insufficient permissions so can only see part of its > modules, even you logged in with root. (maybe not producible) > > 3. yast have to download every local package descrs, no matter whether > you need it or not.
Yes, you and everyone else. It's that metadata that allows zypper to resolve dependencies and other things. If you don't have it available you defeat the whole purpose of a repository.
> I think just download packages.en.gz and packages.your_locale.gz will > be enough. (nowadays it downloads all of them...du, kr, zh_TW, pl, > blabla...) > > and it's the cause of its slowness.. > > it took me 40 minutes to refresh it all...even with local mirrors on.
You most likely have a transparent proxy somewhere in the middle that is introducing erratic behavior or limiting down; that sounds the most reasonable explanation.
hi，nelson，
do you mean some isp slow me down in the middle of the transition from server to me？
I am not network expert...I cant quite follow this part
Yes, there can be a problem somewhere in the network, and it might be bottlenecking somewhere, which could cause issues on your end.
I'll switch all my repo from d.o.o to twaren then try again.
if that comes faster...I'll change all the links on zh.o.o wiki to guide new users.
> > I have a 4MB download speed, but can only download at a speed of < > 10KB/s.
I can top my home line to 1.2Mbytes/sec (12Mbit ADSL); And I can get far more higher speeds through my office.
yes.
so are you suggesting me upgrading my internet plan to use opensuse？like buy a new computer to install opensuse？
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ?
yes...actually I highly suspect the Eu-Asia continent fiber-wire lost its speed into China. (because I never see any Russian guys complain about slowness of yast.)
I'll do some traceroute and see.
Now, depending on the type of your connection there can be lots of factors, from transparent proxies, to network bottlenecks on your ISP side, crazed routing tables, etc.
For example, ADSL connections you have phisical factors, like the distance between your house to the central that serves you, etc.
if my computer is obsolete. i will. but actually 4mb is the largest internet speed in Chinese...I can't immigrate only to update my opensuse box. right？
so the question I want to ask is how to or is there any possible way to speed zypper refresh based on the infrastructure I have.
There's nothing you or anyone else can do on zypper if the problem is related with a network bottleneck for example or crazed routing tables.
> I knew it's slow, but I don't know it's that slow... > > the standard procedure to use yast is: a. launch b. min it and do > something else c. after half an hour, operate, min it again d. wait > until it closes itself. > > I think we really need to improve it. like:
> (1) try merge package descrs among repositories. most of same > packages' descrs among repos are the same. we don't need to download > it several times.
I would belive that this would introduce chaos and havoc in operational theaters that contemplate concorrent repositories. Why should my repo metadata be replaced by some other repo metadata? Simples example:
- My repo has a version of PostgreSQL without UUID support. If you merge metada and mine gets replaced with the one from a repo which has PostgreSQL built with UUID support, users will most likely get a broken PostgreSQL. You will blow up the majority of systems with concorrent repositories.
do you mean packages.en.gz is used to solve dependencies？I think they are just translations. I never mean to merge oss and k：d：l contents together. but packages descr. eg %description instead of gpg keys....or rpms themeselves.
If we are talking about the files in 'repodata' or similiar depending if it's rpm-db or yast2 (which I believe we are), those files are created so that the package manager tools (zypper, yum) can read the metadata from the RPMs available instead of querying them all.
So if you so for example a query on zypper and you dont have those files, there's an error. If you rmeove info from those files, it can lead to malformed dependencies.
Like I said in my last email, there's most likely a global community living from those repos, you might not have interest on descriptions, but I and other people have.
yes. but actually we were talking about different things...
I was talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.locale.gz
It's most likely the same thing because you can have the description fields in the RPM with translations, for example in one spec file we can have multiple summaries for different languages.
I would suppose they will get splitted somewhere. So they are the same thing except the package.locale.gz has the metadata that is provided for your location, right ? :)
(I might be wrong though).
nope.
Adrian said once on build-service ML.
if you did that (multiple summaries/descriptions), you have to maintain all the openSUSE supported languages on your own...
but that's also not exact...because nowadays yast can't parse those localed summaries/descriptions at all. if you write them in spec, it's just got ignored.
coolo's 50-tools script only reads *.spec and withdraw English summaries and descriptions, then insert them into a big .pot file for translators.
and those translated .po will be used to create package.locale.gz.
actually there're no metadata...but just plain translated summaries and descriptions...it's yast that parse them and inset the translations into the right place.
and you were talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.gz and packge.DU.gz
although they look like the same thing. but actually they're different...
maybe because not everything gets translated? and those which haven't local translations dont go into local.gz ?
nope.
"not everything get translated" is right. there're 40000+ packages in such pot....almost the number of items of the whole openSUSE. no one can translate them all...
but package.gz and package.DU.gz don't contain any summaries and descriptions.
they contain libraries' and binaries' names (like /usr/bin/bash) and some numbers.( I don't know what they're for.)
all summaries and descriptions are in package.en.gz.
and I didn't see anything is repodata controls dependencies.
When you do something like 'zypper search foobar' it searches those files with the metadata for a package named foobar. If you dont have those files zypper can't find anything. So if package 'foo' has a dependency on 'foobar' thats how zypper resolves the dependencies, by reading those files (if I'm wrong, someone correct me).
it's done by /var/cache/zypp/raw/*/repodata/*-primary.xml.gz
normal repositories (not oss or non-oss) do not have a ./suse/setup/ directory. so it can't be ./suse/setup/package.gz to solve dependencies....
Same goes for files, versions etc... Why this is done this way? Simple... Imagine that you have a repo with 10.000 files... if everytime a user queries the repo for something it has to open all the 10.000 RPMs to read the metadata, imagine the overhead in I/O it would create.
Not saying it's perfect! But so far it works nice... You have the option also to save that information on SQLite databases instead of the traditional files, wich is useful if you have some sort of application doing some management on the repository itself.
dependencies seems to be solved by RPM program itself. :)
RPM can«t find dependencies from stuff that isn't installed. Zypper does it based on repository metadata. If I am wrong, then someone correct me ;)
eg：you may have two packages in different repos with the same %description. then why do we need to download such descriptions twice？
If dump a lot of RPMs into a directory and you run 'createrepo' on it. It extracts the metadata from all RPMs and creates those file lists or injects it into a sqlite database. This information (like I said before) is used by the package manager tools (zypper) to resolve dependencies and show information to the user.
Try to search a bit for what RPM NEVRA is.
packages.en.gz has nothing to do with dependencies. or specfiles
Then we are maybe speaking of different things. I was assuming you were mentioning the files on 'repodata'. If they are... we shouldnt mess with them.
they are copied out simple texts by coolo's script work in i18n 50-tools
> (2) make a daemon to download them in background when system starts.
Uncool stuff and bloat. How would that feature help a system with 1000 days uptime? You can easilly setup a local repo with mrepo and run a local mirror to overcome all the dificulties you are presenting.
yes.
but I dont know how...
someone said descrs are downloaded from suse original server and packages are downloaded from mirrors.
so to me it means I can get a fast speed if I set up a server to fetch all rpms from a mirror and install them by rpm command. or if I use yast，I have to download descrs from original server. that will be slow.
if I have such server，why I still use yast....
> (3) give user options to not download and display descrs/summaries, > but to find and install only using package names.
You are away that by doing such, you are suggesting that we strip off zypper functionality that will affect dependency resolution? How will this help? For example:
- # zypper install /usr/bin/ssh
Now what does zypper do if he can't access the repo metadata? :)
do you mean package.en.gz is metadata controling dependencies？
Well maybe we need some yast expert to tell us....because I translated such packages.en.gz and didnt find any dependencies in it. I dont know if there are autoscripts adding such dependencies to my translations.
I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them, neither I want to be.
if there is. it will be design default. because rpm dont know chinese...how can it solve dependencies in packages.zh_cn.gz？
> just some ideas in thin air....I don't how to implement it. > > > PS: I think we should remove the "OSS might be slow" string from > translations and yast itself. > > a warning is something you can avoid and don't do it. but repositories? > > you have to enable it not matter how many warnings it warns, if you > want to do things using it. > > but are those things dangerous or risky? no. come on, it's our own OSS > repo. it's just slow. > > and can you avoid that slow? no... > > so it sounds to warn users something they can't change. useless and > feels forcibly. > > it does us more harms than benefits if you think it deeper. > > we give our users a bad first impression that it is slow, so it has to > be fast like a flash to change their such minds. >
Please consider that there is a world outside China ;)
yes...
without any part， it cant be called world...so we have to solve the problem in the worst place instead of the best place...
actually，off topic，opensuse has little users in China partially because it is hard to download（big iso）and update （slow yast）. most people's internet speed is even slower than mine....
What I meant is that openSUSE serves a global community, therefore, because I only use English, doesnt mean that German, Russian, Portuguese and other should be removed on behalf of my own needs because there are other people for which those are important.
yes.
it seems openSUSE has done it well. because zypp will download locale descriptions.(if translators contribute such translations.)
greetings，marguerite
from my Android.
> > Regards > > Marguerite > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org >
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
Marguerite
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 01:29, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/28 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
** IMPORTANT ** Please, you two: Delete the rest of the post, the quoted text, that you are not responding to. Quoted text should be a minimum. Your posts are reaching over 20 kilobytes each. That's a lot. And we have to scan a lot of pages to find the new lines on each post. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CutIACgkQIvFNjefEBxpK8gCggRSEbiBFF7nK7MbnP3n8Mynu PL0An02D2QdvTGraRLGBrKFGJJ7ovg9c =aZb6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
** IMPORTANT **
Please, you two: Delete the rest of the post, the quoted text, that you are not responding to. Quoted text should be a minimum.
Your posts are reaching over 20 kilobytes each. That's a lot.
And we have to scan a lot of pages to find the new lines on each post.
Important: you signature on all your posts also creates a lot of bytes :) At the end of the year I'll have most likely a few GB's sponsored only by your signature ? :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-28 01:42, Nelson Marques wrote:
Important: you signature on all your posts also creates a lot of bytes :) At the end of the year I'll have most likely a few GB's sponsored only by your signature ? :)
Touché. But a) that is accepted by the netiquette and 2) there was one person that took to impersonate me (and other listers), so I had to start signing all my posts to avoid further impersonation. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/CvdYACgkQIvFNjefEBxrsYgCdFMmPOUlDsJz8OHGdKJNhpK2X g9UAnR+OyVsVjl7k0XNbwAWckjTwb9iL =3Dpx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> [05-27-12 19:46]:
** IMPORTANT **
Please, you two: Delete the rest of the post, the quoted text, that you are not responding to. Quoted text should be a minimum.
Your posts are reaching over 20 kilobytes each. That's a lot.
And we have to scan a lot of pages to find the new lines on each post.
Important: you signature on all your posts also creates a lot of bytes :) At the end of the year I'll have most likely a few GB's sponsored only by your signature ? :)
Sadly, you have missed it completely. It is your responsibility to trim the quoted mat'l from the post you compose. That would included previous sigs. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Sadly, you have missed it completely. It is your responsibility to trim the quoted mat'l from the post you compose. That would included previous sigs.
Bill me :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su> [05-27-12 19:30]:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/28 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
在 2012-5-28 上午3:25，"Nelson Marques" <nmo.marques@gmail.com>写道：
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>: > Hi, all, > > users complained to me many times about yast2's slowness on > forums.o.o, twitter or gtalk groups. (of course in a form of flame war > like apt vs. yast, yum vs. yast...I don't want to say much about > that.) > > I didn't believe it, until today I broke my zypp cache, and had to > retrieve them all...and I found many ugly things. let me be clear one > by one. > > 1. yast-ncurses. > > you have to use `LANG=en zypper [option]` if you set your locale to > non-En environment. > > or texts will be displayed as unreadable ??????. > > see screenshot: http://paste.opensuse.org/40229867 >
any ideas on this one？
> 2. if you broke your zypp cache, yast-ncurses will always tell you > that you have insufficient permissions so can only see part of its > modules, even you logged in with root. (maybe not producible) > > 3. yast have to download every local package descrs, no matter whether > you need it or not.
Yes, you and everyone else. It's that metadata that allows zypper to resolve dependencies and other things. If you don't have it available you defeat the whole purpose of a repository.
> I think just download packages.en.gz and packages.your_locale.gz will > be enough. (nowadays it downloads all of them...du, kr, zh_TW, pl, > blabla...) > > and it's the cause of its slowness.. > > it took me 40 minutes to refresh it all...even with local mirrors on.
You most likely have a transparent proxy somewhere in the middle that is introducing erratic behavior or limiting down; that sounds the most reasonable explanation.
hi，nelson，
do you mean some isp slow me down in the middle of the transition from server to me？
I am not network expert...I cant quite follow this part
Yes, there can be a problem somewhere in the network, and it might be bottlenecking somewhere, which could cause issues on your end.
I'll switch all my repo from d.o.o to twaren then try again.
if that comes faster...I'll change all the links on zh.o.o wiki to guide new users.
> > I have a 4MB download speed, but can only download at a speed of < > 10KB/s.
I can top my home line to 1.2Mbytes/sec (12Mbit ADSL); And I can get far more higher speeds through my office.
yes.
so are you suggesting me upgrading my internet plan to use opensuse？like buy a new computer to install opensuse？
No, I'm trying to tell you that if it was a problem on dl.opensuse.org, we would suffer from it to. If I can get those speeds, you should as aswell; for a 4Mbit downstream window you should get around 400Kb/sec. If you are not getting them, that's because there's an issue somewhere, right ?
yes...actually I highly suspect the Eu-Asia continent fiber-wire lost its speed into China. (because I never see any Russian guys complain about slowness of yast.)
I'll do some traceroute and see.
Now, depending on the type of your connection there can be lots of factors, from transparent proxies, to network bottlenecks on your ISP side, crazed routing tables, etc.
For example, ADSL connections you have phisical factors, like the distance between your house to the central that serves you, etc.
if my computer is obsolete. i will. but actually 4mb is the largest internet speed in Chinese...I can't immigrate only to update my opensuse box. right？
so the question I want to ask is how to or is there any possible way to speed zypper refresh based on the infrastructure I have.
There's nothing you or anyone else can do on zypper if the problem is related with a network bottleneck for example or crazed routing tables.
> I knew it's slow, but I don't know it's that slow... > > the standard procedure to use yast is: a. launch b. min it and do > something else c. after half an hour, operate, min it again d. wait > until it closes itself. > > I think we really need to improve it. like:
> (1) try merge package descrs among repositories. most of same > packages' descrs among repos are the same. we don't need to download > it several times.
I would belive that this would introduce chaos and havoc in operational theaters that contemplate concorrent repositories. Why should my repo metadata be replaced by some other repo metadata? Simples example:
- My repo has a version of PostgreSQL without UUID support. If you merge metada and mine gets replaced with the one from a repo which has PostgreSQL built with UUID support, users will most likely get a broken PostgreSQL. You will blow up the majority of systems with concorrent repositories.
do you mean packages.en.gz is used to solve dependencies？I think they are just translations. I never mean to merge oss and k：d：l contents together. but packages descr. eg %description instead of gpg keys....or rpms themeselves.
If we are talking about the files in 'repodata' or similiar depending if it's rpm-db or yast2 (which I believe we are), those files are created so that the package manager tools (zypper, yum) can read the metadata from the RPMs available instead of querying them all.
So if you so for example a query on zypper and you dont have those files, there's an error. If you rmeove info from those files, it can lead to malformed dependencies.
Like I said in my last email, there's most likely a global community living from those repos, you might not have interest on descriptions, but I and other people have.
yes. but actually we were talking about different things...
I was talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.locale.gz
It's most likely the same thing because you can have the description fields in the RPM with translations, for example in one spec file we can have multiple summaries for different languages.
I would suppose they will get splitted somewhere. So they are the same thing except the package.locale.gz has the metadata that is provided for your location, right ? :)
(I might be wrong though).
nope.
Adrian said once on build-service ML.
if you did that (multiple summaries/descriptions), you have to maintain all the openSUSE supported languages on your own...
but that's also not exact...because nowadays yast can't parse those localed summaries/descriptions at all. if you write them in spec, it's just got ignored.
coolo's 50-tools script only reads *.spec and withdraw English summaries and descriptions, then insert them into a big .pot file for translators.
and those translated .po will be used to create package.locale.gz.
actually there're no metadata...but just plain translated summaries and descriptions...it's yast that parse them and inset the translations into the right place.
and you were talking about /var/cache/zypp/download.opensuse.org-oss/suse/setup/descr/package.gz and packge.DU.gz
although they look like the same thing. but actually they're different...
maybe because not everything gets translated? and those which haven't local translations dont go into local.gz ?
nope.
"not everything get translated" is right. there're 40000+ packages in such pot....almost the number of items of the whole openSUSE. no one can translate them all...
but package.gz and package.DU.gz don't contain any summaries and descriptions.
they contain libraries' and binaries' names (like /usr/bin/bash) and some numbers.( I don't know what they're for.)
all summaries and descriptions are in package.en.gz.
and I didn't see anything is repodata controls dependencies.
When you do something like 'zypper search foobar' it searches those files with the metadata for a package named foobar. If you dont have those files zypper can't find anything. So if package 'foo' has a dependency on 'foobar' thats how zypper resolves the dependencies, by reading those files (if I'm wrong, someone correct me).
it's done by /var/cache/zypp/raw/*/repodata/*-primary.xml.gz
normal repositories (not oss or non-oss) do not have a ./suse/setup/ directory. so it can't be ./suse/setup/package.gz to solve dependencies....
Same goes for files, versions etc... Why this is done this way? Simple... Imagine that you have a repo with 10.000 files... if everytime a user queries the repo for something it has to open all the 10.000 RPMs to read the metadata, imagine the overhead in I/O it would create.
Not saying it's perfect! But so far it works nice... You have the option also to save that information on SQLite databases instead of the traditional files, wich is useful if you have some sort of application doing some management on the repository itself.
dependencies seems to be solved by RPM program itself. :)
RPM can«t find dependencies from stuff that isn't installed. Zypper does it based on repository metadata. If I am wrong, then someone correct me ;)
eg：you may have two packages in different repos with the same %description. then why do we need to download such descriptions twice？
If dump a lot of RPMs into a directory and you run 'createrepo' on it. It extracts the metadata from all RPMs and creates those file lists or injects it into a sqlite database. This information (like I said before) is used by the package manager tools (zypper) to resolve dependencies and show information to the user.
Try to search a bit for what RPM NEVRA is.
packages.en.gz has nothing to do with dependencies. or specfiles
Then we are maybe speaking of different things. I was assuming you were mentioning the files on 'repodata'. If they are... we shouldnt mess with them.
they are copied out simple texts by coolo's script work in i18n 50-tools
> (2) make a daemon to download them in background when system starts.
Uncool stuff and bloat. How would that feature help a system with 1000 days uptime? You can easilly setup a local repo with mrepo and run a local mirror to overcome all the dificulties you are presenting.
yes.
but I dont know how...
someone said descrs are downloaded from suse original server and packages are downloaded from mirrors.
so to me it means I can get a fast speed if I set up a server to fetch all rpms from a mirror and install them by rpm command. or if I use yast，I have to download descrs from original server. that will be slow.
if I have such server，why I still use yast....
> (3) give user options to not download and display descrs/summaries, > but to find and install only using package names.
You are away that by doing such, you are suggesting that we strip off zypper functionality that will affect dependency resolution? How will this help? For example:
- # zypper install /usr/bin/ssh
Now what does zypper do if he can't access the repo metadata? :)
do you mean package.en.gz is metadata controling dependencies？
Well maybe we need some yast expert to tell us....because I translated such packages.en.gz and didnt find any dependencies in it. I dont know if there are autoscripts adding such dependencies to my translations.
I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them, neither I want to be.
if there is. it will be design default. because rpm dont know chinese...how can it solve dependencies in packages.zh_cn.gz？
> just some ideas in thin air....I don't how to implement it. > > > PS: I think we should remove the "OSS might be slow" string from > translations and yast itself. > > a warning is something you can avoid and don't do it. but repositories? > > you have to enable it not matter how many warnings it warns, if you > want to do things using it. > > but are those things dangerous or risky? no. come on, it's our own OSS > repo. it's just slow. > > and can you avoid that slow? no... > > so it sounds to warn users something they can't change. useless and > feels forcibly. > > it does us more harms than benefits if you think it deeper. > > we give our users a bad first impression that it is slow, so it has to > be fast like a flash to change their such minds. >
Please consider that there is a world outside China ;)
yes...
without any part， it cant be called world...so we have to solve the problem in the worst place instead of the best place...
actually，off topic，opensuse has little users in China partially because it is hard to download（big iso）and update （slow yast）. most people's internet speed is even slower than mine....
What I meant is that openSUSE serves a global community, therefore, because I only use English, doesnt mean that German, Russian, Portuguese and other should be removed on behalf of my own needs because there are other people for which those are important.
yes.
it seems openSUSE has done it well. because zypp will download locale descriptions.(if translators contribute such translations.)
greetings，marguerite
from my Android.
> > Regards > > Marguerite > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org >
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...
Marguerite
-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
It is really *difficult* to follow and maintain any interest in this conversation where neither you, Marguerite, nor Nelson will bother to try and follow somewhat the netiquette rules for this list and trim your posts to only that which is necessary to follow the *present* post. Archives exist solely for researching and providing history. Please be a little more considerate. Yes I quoted your *entire* post ;^( Your collective anticipated compliance will be greatly appreciated. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:41 AM, Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:
It is really *difficult* to follow and maintain any interest in this conversation where neither you, Marguerite, nor Nelson will bother to try and follow somewhat the netiquette rules for this list and trim your posts to only that which is necessary to follow the *present* post. Archives exist solely for researching and providing history.
Please be a little more considerate. Yes I quoted your *entire* post ;^(
Your collective anticipated compliance will be greatly appreciated.
sorry, man...for the huge bits. I just know to "inline reply"... actually history is hosted on list.opensuse.org... quotes are displayed in different color... but what you suggested is good, I'll keep using it. Thanks Marguerite
-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 07:04:30AM +0800, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Nelson Marques <nmo.marques@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/5/27 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>: [ 8< ]
do you mean some isp slow me down in the middle of the transition from server to me？
I am not network expert...I cant quite follow this part
Yes, there can be a problem somewhere in the network, and it might be bottlenecking somewhere, which could cause issues on your end.
I'll switch all my repo from d.o.o to twaren then try again.
if that comes faster...I'll change all the links on zh.o.o wiki to guide new users.
Don't change the wiki! Don't do this if you're not sure what's causing the issue _you_'re faced by. The mirrorbrain.org dowmnload redirector approach is very, very generic. It's based on AS information. If you don't know what an AS is and how this internet thing works please read more about it. There are a lot documents available out there. But do not change the wiki content cause things are slow for _you_ or some other users. File bug reports if you're faced by issues. Quote the bug IDs here to allow others to follow the discussion and to allow others to pick the discussion _and_ the results up from the list archive. File one independent, separate bug report for each issue. Don't mix ten issues into one report. And be this nice and enhance your mail skills a bit. Please learn how to quote. See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style Thanks, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
participants (17)
-
Basil Chupin -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Claudio Freire -
dieter -
Duncan Mac-Vicar P. -
Hans Witvliet -
James Knott -
Jan Engelhardt -
Lars Müller -
Ma Xiaojun -
Marcus Meissner -
Marguerite Su -
Nelson Marques -
Patrick Shanahan -
Stephan Kulow -
Werner LEMBERG