Frederic Crozat wrote:

[...] Don't bother supporting text for cryptsetup in initrd plymouth : it won't work because you would need to pull pango and so on in initrd, which make it huge. Best would be to have a different splash (usually with a lock before the text field).

Uhm, how does the user know which volume the prompt refers to then? Maybe the text could be pre-rendered at mkinitrd time? cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Ludwig, On Monday, April 02, 2012, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

[...] Don't bother supporting text for cryptsetup in initrd plymouth : it won't work because you would need to pull pango and so on in initrd, which make it huge. Best would be to have a different splash (usually with a lock before the text field).

Uhm, how does the user know which volume the prompt refers to then? Maybe the text could be pre-rendered at mkinitrd time?

The current setup will show messages as soon as /usr has been mounted. I have made a small script that asks for a truecrypt password to mount an encrypted partition. This works fine with the plymouth display-text functionality. I am wondering if all information regarding the LUKS disks is present at the moment that the initrd file is generated. Also the system has to be able to generate png files for this. An alternative could be is to somehow force that the LUKS passwords are asked before plymouth is started. This can then be done on a normal console which can display text. My question would be how many users of openSUSE do we have that are using LUKS ? Regards Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 02 April 2012 14.14:34 Raymond Wooninck wrote:

Hi Ludwig,

On Monday, April 02, 2012, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

[...] Don't bother supporting text for cryptsetup in initrd plymouth : it won't work because you would need to pull pango and so on in initrd, which make it huge. Best would be to have a different splash (usually with a lock before the text field).

Uhm, how does the user know which volume the prompt refers to then? Maybe the text could be pre-rendered at mkinitrd time?

The current setup will show messages as soon as /usr has been mounted. I have made a small script that asks for a truecrypt password to mount an encrypted partition. This works fine with the plymouth display-text functionality.

It also show which volume on the text-mode, and so I assume all necessary informations are around. volume by volume.

I am wondering if all information regarding the LUKS disks is present at the moment that the initrd file is generated. Also the system has to be able to generate png files for this. An alternative could be is to somehow force that the LUKS passwords are asked before plymouth is started. This can then be done on a normal console which can display text. My question would be how many users of openSUSE do we have that are using LUKS ?

bilions for sure, nobody using a laptop use an unencrypted / did they? :D

Regards

Raymond

One crazy idea, can't plymouth reuse the font needed by grub/grub2 ? those are available before any unlocking

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-- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Ambassador GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le lundi 02 avril 2012 à 17:33 +0200, Bruno Friedmann a écrit :

...

One crazy idea, can't plymouth reuse the font needed by grub/grub2 ? those are available before any unlocking

The problem is not the font itself but the entire pango framework, which is not that small.

I wonder why though. We don't need to render fancy articles and layouts, especially not in initrd. We are talking about a single (english) sentence at most here. So for that simply using freetype directly to render the text into a buffer should suffice, right? There is no need for any full featured layout engine like pango. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le lundi 16 avril 2012 à 16:35 +0200, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :

...

Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le lundi 02 avril 2012 à 17:33 +0200, Bruno Friedmann a écrit :

...

One crazy idea, can't plymouth reuse the font needed by grub/grub2 ? those are available before any unlocking

The problem is not the font itself but the entire pango framework, which is not that small.

I wonder why though. We don't need to render fancy articles and layouts, especially not in initrd. We are talking about a single (english) sentence at most here. So for that simply using freetype directly to render the text into a buffer should suffice, right? There is no need for any full featured layout engine like pango.

This shouldn't be english only output (which is why plymouth is using pango + cairo).

Well, nice in theory. As a matter of fact we only need a few ascii characters in practice though. SUSE never had any translated boot messages. So the fancy pango stuff only results in bloat for no gain or nothing displayed and user completely left in the dark atm. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 of April 2012 17:51EN, Frederic Crozat wrote:

I don't agree with you, since I worked on another distro who had translated boot messages for years and I think it is important and just because SUSE didn't support it shouldn't mean it will never support it ;)

And I thought having Czech keyboard layout as default in bootmenu (without any apparent method to switch) was the worst that could happen to me when booting a linux system. :-( Michal Kubeček (OK, until I've seen 12.1 milestones, at least.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

It seems that my reply from yesterday didn't arrived in the mailing list. Therefore please see my reply below. On Tuesday, April 17, 2012, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

so we have the choice between a) enlarging the initrd by including pango b) not display any text or hint at all c) use text mode for prompts d) use an alternative label.so that uses freetype directly instead of pango

a) seems undesirable bloat esp since there is no localization at all in initrd and I doubt that will change until 12.2 (feel free to prove me wrong) b) is currently implemented and not satisfactory IMO c) fails 1. and 2. and doesn't provide localization either d) would fullfil 1. and 2. but would need someone to actually write C code ...

The current state of Plymouth in Factory is that option A was implemented. I have added the necessary files to have text support during the boot process. The initrd (on my system) grew with about 700Kb and this was also confirmed by other people. The whole Pango framework is not required and the only additions are: usr/share/fonts/truetype/DejaVuSans.ttf usr/share/fonts/truetype/DejaVuSerif.ttf usr/lib64/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0.3000.0 (176Kb) usr/lib64/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 usr/lib64/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0.3000.0 (52Kb) usr/lib64/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 usr/lib64/libpango-1.0.so.0.3000.0 (308Kb) usr/lib64/libpango-1.0.so.0 usr/lib64/pango/1.6.0/modules/pango-basic-fc.so (11Kb) etc/pango/pango64.modules (3Kb) etc/fonts/conf.d/60-latin.conf etc/fonts/fonts.conf (5Kb) As indicated once they are in the compressed initrd, then the total additional space requires is about 700Kb. And most of it is taken by the two font files. For me the biggest question mark is that even if we write a new label.so to support FreeType, do we still need fonts inside the initrd ? If so, what would be the actual different with using FreeType instead of the indicated pango libraries. As the current maintainer of Plymouth, I will not accept option C (use text mode) and this was also a clear indication from the people on this mailing list. Most of them indicated that they would like to see Text support inside the boot process and I feel that this would be our opportunity to enhance the current openSUSE boot process with more feedback towards the user behind the screen. Regards Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Raymond Wooninck wrote:

...

It seems that my reply from yesterday didn't arrived in the mailing list. Therefore please see my reply below.

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

so we have the choice between a) enlarging the initrd by including pango b) not display any text or hint at all c) use text mode for prompts d) use an alternative label.so that uses freetype directly instead of pango

a) seems undesirable bloat esp since there is no localization at all in initrd and I doubt that will change until 12.2 (feel free to prove me wrong) b) is currently implemented and not satisfactory IMO c) fails 1. and 2. and doesn't provide localization either d) would fullfil 1. and 2. but would need someone to actually write C code ...

The current state of Plymouth in Factory is that option A was implemented. I have added the necessary files to have text support during the boot process. The initrd (on my system) grew with about 700Kb and this was also confirmed by other people. The whole Pango framework is not required and the only additions are:

usr/share/fonts/truetype/DejaVuSans.ttf usr/share/fonts/truetype/DejaVuSerif.ttf usr/lib64/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0.3000.0 (176Kb) usr/lib64/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 usr/lib64/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0.3000.0 (52Kb) usr/lib64/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 usr/lib64/libpango-1.0.so.0.3000.0 (308Kb) usr/lib64/libpango-1.0.so.0 usr/lib64/pango/1.6.0/modules/pango-basic-fc.so (11Kb) etc/pango/pango64.modules (3Kb) etc/fonts/conf.d/60-latin.conf etc/fonts/fonts.conf (5Kb)

As indicated once they are in the compressed initrd, then the total additional space requires is about 700Kb. And most of it is taken by the two font files.

For me the biggest question mark is that even if we write a new label.so to support FreeType, do we still need fonts inside the initrd ? If so, what would be the actual different with using FreeType instead of the indicated pango libraries.

Of course you need a font. Your list above does not include freetype itself, fontconfig, glib and other libraries that are required by the pango libraries. So I guess those are already the costs of plymouth itself. I had assumed that the plugin architecture of label.so was done to avoid excessive deps. Apparently that assumption was wrong and something else already requires excessive libraries. In that case the few extra kb for pango don't matter indeed. Using freetype directly instead of pango to save space would only make sense if that also avoids having glib etc in initrd.

Ok, so I modified cp_bin of mkinitrd to not copy binaries that depend on glib. initrd size went down to 5.8MB The culprit is udev. mkinitrd blindly copies anything in /lib/udev including dependencies to initrd which doubles the size. With that hack after installing plymouth the initrd has 8.9MB After forcefully removing suspend and splashy while keeping plymouth the initrd has 6.6MB. So that should be the basis for your measurements. The superfluous dependencies added by udev and splashy need to be addressed. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Raymond Wooninck wrote:

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Ok, so I modified cp_bin of mkinitrd to not copy binaries that depend on glib. initrd size went down to 5.8MB The culprit is udev. mkinitrd blindly copies anything in /lib/udev including dependencies to initrd which doubles the size. With that hack after installing plymouth the initrd has 8.9MB After forcefully removing suspend and splashy while keeping plymouth the initrd has 6.6MB. So that should be the basis for your measurements. The superfluous dependencies added by udev and splashy need to be addressed.

Is this with the latest plymouth from Factory ? If so, then this should have the text support already in it.

It's milestone 3

However could you send me your modified copy of cp_bin, so that I can make some tests here to see if things are working and what the size increase would be.

Just add the following lines in cp_bin in /lib/mkinitrd/scripts/setup-prepare.sh: if grep -q libglib -- "$1"; then echo "skipping $1, requires glib" return 0 fi cu Ludwig PS: initrd down to 5.5MB by not including halt and reboot from systemd which require systemd libs and libdbus ... -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, Am Dienstag, 17. April 2012 schrieb Raymond Wooninck:

The whole Pango framework is not required and the only additions are:

usr/share/fonts/truetype/DejaVuSans.ttf usr/share/fonts/truetype/DejaVuSerif.ttf [...] As indicated once they are in the compressed initrd, then the total additional space requires is about 700Kb. And most of it is taken by the two font files.

This results in an interesting question: Do we really need _two_ fonts in the initrd? Regards, Christian Boltz -- Machen wir einen Club "utf-8 geplagte Perl-Programmierer" auf? [Bernhard Walle in suse-programming] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, April 18, 2012, Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

This results in an interesting question: Do we really need _two_ fonts in the initrd?

One should be enough (Sans).

I will test this. I added both fonts as that this was indicated on a chat with another plymouth maintainer. But I will do some testing and adjust the package correctly. Regards Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 18 April 2012 09:57:35 Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

I will test this. I added both fonts as that this was indicated on a chat with another plymouth maintainer. But I will do some testing and adjust the package correctly.

And this font contains all the glyphs needed for the languages we need pango for, like chinese, hangul, thai etc ? :)

Does the font have to be hardcoded? Wouldn't it be easier to select it dynamically (perhaps even let the user choose, at least through a sysconfig file) and provide multi-language support that way? Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ok, let's summarize the discussion. At the moment Plymouth shows only a dialog box to enter a password. Question is if we can indicate to the user for what he/she needs to enter the password. Whatever solution we come up with, we have to keep in mind that actually the Plymouth theme is the one that communicates with the user. This in mind, I see four possible solutions: 1) When a mkinitrd is created, we create PNG files with the name of the encrypted volumes for which LUKS will ask for the passphrase. This however means that the openSUSE users no longer will have the freedom to change Plymouth themes, as that would eliminate above setup and the theme will just show a dialog box for the password. 2) We add the required fonts and the Pango framework to the initrd, so that plymouth can show text messages while the /usr partition is not available yet. This would increate the size of the initrd. 3) We make sure that the boot-luks script is run before plymouth becomes active. This means that from the Graphical grub menu, we would jump to a text screen where the password can be entered and after LUKS has unlocked the drives, plymouth is started and used as a bootsplash. 4) We utilize exactly the same setup as that currently is in place with splashy. We start plymouth as soon as possible and when LUKS requires a password, then we switch to the detail screen where we then can use the standard commands to show text and ask for the password. Once we have the passwords, we then switch back to the graphical splash screen. I still have to test option 4, but in my opinion this would be the best method to move forward with. As indicated this is also the current method with splashy. I don't like the idea to create something where people are stuck with and no longer have the option to have the freedom to choose any theme they want. Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, Am Montag, 2. April 2012 schrieb Raymond Wooninck:

1) When a mkinitrd is created, we create PNG files with the name of the encrypted volumes for which LUKS will ask for the passphrase. This however means that the openSUSE users no longer will have the freedom to change Plymouth themes, as that would eliminate above setup and the theme will just show a dialog box for the password.

I know nothing about the plymouth internals - sorry if the following question sounds silly or has an obvious answer ;-) Why does this option make it impossible to change the plymough theme? My guess would be that changing the theme would "just" require to run mkinitrd...

2) We add the required fonts and the Pango framework to the initrd, so that plymouth can show text messages while the /usr partition is not available yet. This would increate the size of the initrd.

"bigger initrd" is a relative term - are you talking about 50kB or 10 MB here? (Besides that: does a bigger initrd do any harm?)

3) We make sure that the boot-luks script is run before plymouth

4) We utilize exactly the same setup as that currently is in place

Those two options will of course work, but as Ludwig already said: All the shiny splash tech and then a prompt in text mode? That would be a shame. For now, all options are OK for me (in other words: don't let the passphrase dialog block everything regarding plymouth), but on the long term I'd like to see option 1 or 2 implemented ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz -- Such mal im Archiv dieser Liste nach 'reiserfs', oder genauer, nach 'rasierfs' und 'reisswolffs'. Reiserfs reagiert auf Fehler (diverser Art) wie ne Diva... [David Haller in suse-linux] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Raymond Wooninck wrote:

I agree with you that plymouth is all about increasing the boot experience for the user and this should not create a disappointment. There is a fifth option where only a password dialog box is shown with a "lock" symbol. This is what is currently implemented, but this of course does not indicate why the system is asking for a password, nor for which LUKS device it is asking the passphrase.

How does the lock icon get there? Is it part of any plymouth theme? What is displayed when using the arbitrary 3rd party themes you are concerned about? cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 03 April 2012 12.04:54 Raymond Wooninck wrote:

On 04/03/2012 09:24 AM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

How does the lock icon get there? Is it part of any plymouth theme? What is displayed when using the arbitrary 3rd party themes you are concerned about?

The lock icon is indeed part of the plymouth theme. If the theme does not have a password dialog, then nothing will be displayed for the user.

As indicated the whole interaction with the user is driven by the plymouth theme. So all graphical elements are part of the theme. The only action that are theme-independent are the text messages one can generate in the upper left corner of the screen. However to do this early in the boot process, it is required to have some additional libraries copied into the initrd.

I have updated the plymouth package in my own repo with this font support and the result is that the initrd grew with approximately 775Kbytes additionally.

Regards

Raymond

Will try this one this evening and report back the result. +0.7MB on a almost 11MB initrd is not that impressive at first look -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Ambassador GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 03 April 2012 14.55:31 Raymond Wooninck wrote:

On Tuesday, April 03, 2012, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

Will try this one this evening and report back the result. +0.7MB on a almost 11MB initrd is not that impressive at first look

Does that 11Mb contains already the plymouth splash ? If I look on my system, then I had an initrd of around 15Mb and that got increased with 0.7Mb once I added the fonts and libpango.

I know that the size is depending on the plymouth theme as well, but it would be good if you could confirm that the 11Mb contains also plymouth.

Thanks

Raymond

The full content of the last initrd I remade after upgrading to your last package is here http://susepaste.org/63969594 11MB was the side of initrd on 12.1, 12.2 has ~19MB The excellent news is now, with the last update there the device id shown (text) in the upper left part of the screen so you know which device you are unlocking. !!! Excellent !!! ps : now I can't remove splashy, it's hard coded as require to plymouth/suspend ... but pm-hibernate doesn't work, nor s2disk (bus error) -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Ambassador GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Christian, Am 02.04.2012 20:42, schrieb Christian Boltz:

"bigger initrd" is a relative term - are you talking about 50kB or 10 MB here? (Besides that: does a bigger initrd do any harm?)

I have no clue about plymouth, but to answer the second question: The kernel and initrd are loaded by grub via plain old BIOS interfaces, which can be sssssllllllllooooooowwwwwwww. So yes, every extra byte of initrd does hurt badly if you happen to have a machine that is affected. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/03/2012 10:39 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Just one question: How does Fedora handle this with dracut?

Andreas

Fedora does not display any text, but just the password dialog box. Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Ludwig, On Monday, April 02, 2012, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Uhm, how does the user know which volume the prompt refers to then? Maybe the text could be pre-rendered at mkinitrd time?

I just checked the boot-luks.sh script that is run by initrd, but that one also doesn't indicate for which volume it is requesting the passphrase. The only indicated information to the user is "Enter LUKS passphrase". Nothing more. This would be something that I can hardcode as an image to display within plymouth. Initially I thought that you wanted to see the devices, which is done with plymouth but not displayed due to the missing fonts in the initrd. If the above is the only thing you would like to see, then we can do this easily. Regards Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org