Am Dienstag 20 Oktober 2009 schrieb Andrea Florio:

because i think any suse user likes the second option, all the "enterprise specific" option should be develop but NOT ENABLED on OPENsuse.

Hi, This is really not about enterprise/SLE but about user's expectations. Right now libxine1 of packman is newer and so you expect the updater to switch to it. But what if libxine1 in KDE:Backports gets a newer version but without the codec support you expect. Would you still expect the updater to switch or would you prefer it to stay with packman's version? This is exactly the problem we're having: People expect that packages are updated from the repos they are registering - unless they want some other version. Now there is a "bootstrap" problem - if you register OpenOffice:STABLE you very likely plan to track it, but unless you switch your OOo packages to that repo, there is no way to do that. And switching to it is done with zypper easily: zypper dup -r repo-openOffice but there is currently no easy way to "trust" a repository vendor beside the manual options Martin already listed. Again: this has nothing to do with enterprise, but we have to decide for openSUSE if we want to get rid of the feature to stay with a vendor just because it's harder to explain. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 03:45:30PM +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:

And switching to it is done with zypper easily: zypper dup -r repo-openOffice but there is currently no easy way to "trust" a repository vendor beside the manual options Martin already listed.

Make that 'zypper dup --from repo-openOffice', available in the latest zypper release. 'zypper -r' temporarily disables all other repos, which works only in a few cases. Cheers, Michael. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Markus Rex, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

IMHO rellying in Packman having a higher version-release isn't a great solution. It could easily happen that openSUSE provides multimedia_package-1.1-3.2 and Packman multimedia_package-1.1-3.1. Even if vendors are ignored YaST will not offer an update in this case. If you want an easy way of installing packages with patented codecs support, IMHO the most easy and reliable way is Packman creating metapackages. Something like... - gstreamer-packman - xine-packman - multimedia-packman (that requires gstreamer-packman and xine-packman) These metapackages could require an exact version-release (that can be updated automatically every time a new package is created). ...but that's something to be discussed in the Packman ML. 2009/10/20 Juergen Weigert :

On Oct 20, 09 15:45:30 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Dienstag 20 Oktober 2009 schrieb Andrea Florio:

...

because i think any suse user likes the second option, all the "enterprise specific" option should be develop but NOT ENABLED on OPENsuse.

Hi,

This is really not about enterprise/SLE but about user's expectations.

Right now libxine1 of packman is newer and so you expect the updater to switch to it. But what if libxine1 in KDE:Backports gets a newer version but without the codec support you expect. Would you still expect the updater to switch or would you prefer it to stay with packman's version?

For me this is not the point. I can accept that any automatich update logic will make a wrong decision some time.

The crucial point is, that the user is not informed that there was a decision.

My suggestion:  If it would just list the other 'newer' version as available, but discarded  due to a vendor change, the we do no harm for any enterprise or  conservative setups, but give the user a chance, what is going on.

How about that?

That's what was done with zypper. At some point "zypper lu" returned wrong results. It was fixed, but the wrong behavior was kept with "zypper lu -a" since it can be of use. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----Original Message----- From: Ludwig Nussel [mailto:ludwig.nussel@suse.de] Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:14 AM To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Anit-Vendor Change Extremism - Call for discussion

Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

IMHO rellying in Packman having a higher version-release isn't a great solution. It could easily happen that openSUSE provides multimedia_package-1.1-3.2 and Packman multimedia_package-1.1-3.1. Even if vendors are ignored YaST will not offer an update in this case. If you want an easy way of installing packages with patented codecs support, IMHO the most easy and reliable way is Packman creating metapackages. Something like... - gstreamer-packman - xine-packman - multimedia-packman (that requires gstreamer-packman and xine-packman) These metapackages could require an exact version-release (that can be updated automatically every time a new package is created).

Depends on what you want. Subpackages with matching version will work just fine if you just wanted to add support for additional formats or plugins to the existing xine/gstreamer of openSUSE. No need to replace anything. Packman however offers backports of new versions or even differently packaged versions.

cu Ludwig

If i understand correct, multimedia-packman could be something like CCCP codecs, or K-Lite Mega Codec pack for Microsoft Windows. It contains everything you need to play all popular video file formats. All needed codecs are included there and people don´t have to find which codec plays how format. All, like w32, libxine, lidvdcss etc. would be included in one multimedia pack. -- S pozdravom / Best regards, Rasto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I think that opensuse is distro that should just works and should be adequate stable. If you allow third party packages by default and it breaks distro

But, this is simply not the case with the "default" official repositories when you look at it from an end user home desktop standpoint. To get things working the way a user expects, you must use the 3rd party repos... there is no other way. It's a Catch-22 situation.... C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 20. Oktober 2009 16:00:48 schrieb Anders Johansson:

On Tuesday 20 October 2009 15:55:52 Clayton wrote:

...

...

I think that opensuse is distro that should just works and should be adequate stable. If you allow third party packages by default and it breaks distro

But, this is simply not the case with the "default" official repositories when you look at it from an end user home desktop standpoint. To get things working the way a user expects, you must use the 3rd party repos... there is no other way.

I disagree slightly. I suspect the missing functionality you're talking about is for multimedia, and in this case, users would click the one-click install, which bypasses the vendor change, they get the packages they need but no other, and no surprising changes to the core libraries.

We want users to understand yast / zypper, just handing out 1-clicks because the entrance level to yast / zypper is too high sounds not very forward looking.

Try subscribing to the vlc repo at the same time as the packman repo, install vlc from the vlc repo, and try to keep it. This (among other things) is why it's a good idea to have the vendor protection

No one suggests the previous state was optimal, but nearly everybody at least knows how it works and that this will lead to mixing packages. In zypper you also get warned about it. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Tirsdag den 20. oktober 2009 16:08:10 skrev Marcus Meissner:

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 03:55:52PM +0200, Clayton wrote:

...

...

I think that opensuse is distro that should just works and should be adequate stable. If you allow third party packages by default and it breaks distro

But, this is simply not the case with the "default" official repositories when you look at it from an end user home desktop standpoint. To get things working the way a user expects, you must use the 3rd party repos... there is no other way.

Packman likely will break things since it does too much in one repository at once :/ (And it caused issues over the past already.)

Users will resort to 'zypper dup' or something instead. Or they'll switch to smart package manager.. or Ubuntu. And the advantage of the popular and fairly safe OBS repos (like OOo, Mozilla, KDE backports etc.), is more or less neutralized by the current behaviour. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2009/10/23 Larry Stotler :

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 6:27 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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From what most people in this thread suggest, users should do a "zypper dup" once they registered all repostories they want to track and following they should use the UI to see single updates or use zypper up. That the UIs do not have a way to do that currently is something that is sad, but not a desaster. Possibly we can add a hook for 11.2 to allow switching to the versions of a specific repository in the UI, at least it sounds possible without too much risk.

This is something I've run into on 11.0.  I installed Firefox 3.5 from the Mozilla repo, and then I have to continually check YaST to see if there is an update available for it once I see that there is an update.  If there are security issues resolved by an update, then it should be flagged and you should see it in the opensuse-updater icon's list.  While security isn't as much of an issue on Linux as it is on Windows, the updater should still show you that you have an update to whatever package you have chosen to install.  So, if I choose to install libxine from pacman, then any updates for that package should now ONLY come from pacman and nowhere else.

That's a completely different problem. See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=418277 (probably there are more duplicates not marked as so...). I have no idea if the problem is fixed in 11.2 (I don't think so). Once the update applet/packagekit backend supports package updates (not just patch updates) then it could be discussed if the applet should inform about updates that require a vendor change or not. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org