[opensuse-factory] Anit-Vendor Change Extremism - Call for discussion
Some may have already noticed this bug/design choice: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=548089 If you add Packman or any OBS repo to 11.2rc, the updates will be hidden from you by YaST and zypper - because they involve a vendor change. As seen in this screenshot: http://bugzillafiles.novell.org/attachment.cgi?id=323038 This means that to update libxine1, amarok or any other package in the distro to Packman or OBS versions, you have three options: 1) Manually go to the Versions tab in YaST *every* time you want to replace a distro package with a 3rd party one - with *nothing* whatsoever telling you that an upgrade is actually available for your choosing - you must be aware of this yourself. 2) Set 'solver.AllowVenderChange = true' in /etc/zypp/zypp.conf 3) create '/etc/zypp/vendors.d/foobar' with your trusted vendors. Naturally *no* new user will *ever* figure out any of this without expert help - and neither will most existing openSUSE users. I think the vast majority of openSUSE users add one or more Packman/OBS repos and want to be able to upgrade packages in the distro without having to fight the package manager to do it. Personally I think this is a total disaster for openSUSE, and a nightmare for anyone who tries to promote openSUSE and help newbies. Is it just me? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il 20/10/2009 15:15, Martin Schlander ha scritto:
no, i completly agree... the problem of that is coming from SLE where that is really important. i think openSUSE need to made a choice... be just a development version of the next SLE or really provide an userfriendly linux distro. because i think any suse user likes the second option, all the "enterprise specific" option should be develop but NOT ENABLED on OPENsuse. Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag 20 Oktober 2009 schrieb Andrea Florio:
because i think any suse user likes the second option, all the "enterprise specific" option should be develop but NOT ENABLED on OPENsuse.
Hi, This is really not about enterprise/SLE but about user's expectations. Right now libxine1 of packman is newer and so you expect the updater to switch to it. But what if libxine1 in KDE:Backports gets a newer version but without the codec support you expect. Would you still expect the updater to switch or would you prefer it to stay with packman's version? This is exactly the problem we're having: People expect that packages are updated from the repos they are registering - unless they want some other version. Now there is a "bootstrap" problem - if you register OpenOffice:STABLE you very likely plan to track it, but unless you switch your OOo packages to that repo, there is no way to do that. And switching to it is done with zypper easily: zypper dup -r repo-openOffice but there is currently no easy way to "trust" a repository vendor beside the manual options Martin already listed. Again: this has nothing to do with enterprise, but we have to decide for openSUSE if we want to get rid of the feature to stay with a vendor just because it's harder to explain. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 20. oktober 2009 15:45:30 skrev Stephan Kulow:
The problem is not the vendor sticky per se. What's catastrophic is the hidding of update availability and the amount of work and knowledge required to change the vendor to begin with (looking in versions tab for an update you must know in advance exists). Until these issues are fixed, allowVendorChange should be the default imo. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 03:45:30PM +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Make that 'zypper dup --from repo-openOffice', available in the latest zypper release. 'zypper -r' temporarily disables all other repos, which works only in a few cases. Cheers, Michael. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Markus Rex, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Oct 20, 09 15:45:30 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:
For me this is not the point. I can accept that any automatich update logic will make a wrong decision some time. The crucial point is, that the user is not informed that there was a decision. My suggestion: If it would just list the other 'newer' version as available, but discarded due to a vendor change, the we do no harm for any enterprise or conservative setups, but give the user a chance, what is going on. How about that? cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
IMHO rellying in Packman having a higher version-release isn't a great solution. It could easily happen that openSUSE provides multimedia_package-1.1-3.2 and Packman multimedia_package-1.1-3.1. Even if vendors are ignored YaST will not offer an update in this case. If you want an easy way of installing packages with patented codecs support, IMHO the most easy and reliable way is Packman creating metapackages. Something like... - gstreamer-packman - xine-packman - multimedia-packman (that requires gstreamer-packman and xine-packman) These metapackages could require an exact version-release (that can be updated automatically every time a new package is created). ...but that's something to be discussed in the Packman ML. 2009/10/20 Juergen Weigert <jw@suse.de>:
That's what was done with zypper. At some point "zypper lu" returned wrong results. It was fixed, but the wrong behavior was kept with "zypper lu -a" since it can be of use. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Morales Vega wrote:
Depends on what you want. Subpackages with matching version will work just fine if you just wanted to add support for additional formats or plugins to the existing xine/gstreamer of openSUSE. No need to replace anything. Packman however offers backports of new versions or even differently packaged versions. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
If i understand correct, multimedia-packman could be something like CCCP codecs, or K-Lite Mega Codec pack for Microsoft Windows. It contains everything you need to play all popular video file formats. All needed codecs are included there and people don´t have to find which codec plays how format. All, like w32, libxine, lidvdcss etc. would be included in one multimedia pack. -- S pozdravom / Best regards, Rasto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 10/20/2009 06:33 PM, Juergen Weigert wrote:
Yup, this should have been there from the start. I want to do this ASAP but i can't make any promises, as i'm busy with other things right now. -- cheers, jano Ján Kupec YaST team ---------------------------------------------------------(PGP)--- Key ID: 637EE901 Fingerprint: 93B9 C79B 2D20 51C3 800B E09B 8048 46A6 637E E901 ---------------------------------------------------------(IRC)--- Server: irc.freenode.net Nick: jniq Channels: #zypp #yast #suse #susecz ---------------------------------------------------------(EOF)---
It's not just you... I agree 100%. OpenSUSE has too many of these little expert things (with more being added) that makes using it as an Enterprise level distribution better, but as a end user desktop, much much more difficult. Yes you can go into (what is to an end user) obscure configuration files and tweak things, but.. no end user will do that. Heck, I don't consider myself a new user, and I don't go tweak all these settings to make things easier on the Desktop (server side, it works fine) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander write:
I think that opensuse is distro that should just works and should be adequate stable. If you allow third party packages by default and it breaks distro (often case if you mix packages which doesn't have precise defined dependencies), then users start shouting how opensuse is broken and in better case fill bugzilla about problems which opensuse cannot influence. Of course if you install some end package like mplayer and it doesn't work, you don't expect support. But if you install as dependency library libFoo and this library break e.g. YaST then you report this problem to opensuse, because YaST is opensuse tool, but nobody see that problem is in third party library. So I think that default behavior to don't change vendor is good choice. Of course it should be more friendly to change this behavior, but I think that as expert choice (because you should know what it can cause) is enough to have option in zypp.conf. Just my opinion. -- Josef Reidinger YaST team maintainer of perl-Bootloader, YaST2-Repair, webyast modules language and time -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
I think that opensuse is distro that should just works and should be adequate stable. If you allow third party packages by default and it breaks distro
But, this is simply not the case with the "default" official repositories when you look at it from an end user home desktop standpoint. To get things working the way a user expects, you must use the 3rd party repos... there is no other way. It's a Catch-22 situation.... C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 20 October 2009 15:55:52 Clayton wrote:
I disagree slightly. I suspect the missing functionality you're talking about is for multimedia, and in this case, users would click the one-click install, which bypasses the vendor change, they get the packages they need but no other, and no surprising changes to the core libraries. Try subscribing to the vlc repo at the same time as the packman repo, install vlc from the vlc repo, and try to keep it. This (among other things) is why it's a good idea to have the vendor protection Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 20. Oktober 2009 16:00:48 schrieb Anders Johansson:
We want users to understand yast / zypper, just handing out 1-clicks because the entrance level to yast / zypper is too high sounds not very forward looking.
No one suggests the previous state was optimal, but nearly everybody at least knows how it works and that this will lead to mixing packages. In zypper you also get warned about it. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 03:55:52PM +0200, Clayton wrote:
Packman likely will break things since it does too much in one repository at once :/ (And it caused issues over the past already.) Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 20. oktober 2009 16:08:10 skrev Marcus Meissner:
Users will resort to 'zypper dup' or something instead. Or they'll switch to smart package manager.. or Ubuntu. And the advantage of the popular and fairly safe OBS repos (like OOo, Mozilla, KDE backports etc.), is more or less neutralized by the current behaviour. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 20 October 2009 18:45:58 Martin Schlander wrote:
I just saw this last night and looked up bugzilla. Frankly, I thought this was a bug, that this was by design really beats me. If there are conservative users who only want the "official" packages from openSUSE/Novell they will not add any additional repos. But for the others (and these are the majority) this is very bad to say the least. Should we vote for this in bugzilla to convince the assignee (I don't think discussing this on ml's is going to help)? -- Atri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Heya I totally agree with Martin here, I was very confused when adding packman didn't "automagically" pull in a proper working xine. The way this works now breaks with I think age old behaviour. Adding the Vendor Change thing adds a new layer of awareness in the users that he is switching from official to unoffical repositores, which is nice, but not done proper that way, because he isn't warned about it or informed in anyway why he new repository "doesn't work". Also installing MPlayer from packman doesn't issue a warning, even though it is a non-official repository, only when changing a package so here the user might not even know about the unofficial state the same way a package change informs him. So I would prefer to keep around the old handling and think up a proper way to deal with this with the next release as everything else is propably too intrusive. Regards, Karsten Am Dienstag, 20. Oktober 2009 15:15:58 schrieb Martin Schlander:
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Am Dienstag 20 Oktober 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Hi, We just had a little discussion here with the zypp guys and the outcome is: vendor change protection is a good thing, but the current implementation of the tools just leaves too much room for improvement. But changing the default will cause more trouble than good - mainly because then the priorities get a lot more attention from the solver and those are even less tested (or understood by users). From what most people in this thread suggest, users should do a "zypper dup" once they registered all repostories they want to track and following they should use the UI to see single updates or use zypper up. That the UIs do not have a way to do that currently is something that is sad, but not a desaster. Possibly we can add a hook for 11.2 to allow switching to the versions of a specific repository in the UI, at least it sounds possible without too much risk. And as said in the bug, I see the "libxine1 case" to be solver easier: if Packman offers an additional package that requires _their_ libxine1 version, you can force the solver in always sticking to the packman version, no matter which repo gets the highest version. The "switch to latest Foobar" use case is more worrying to me. And there zypper dup is the only choice so far. But it basically has been that case with 11.1 too, because e.g. KDE did so many package splits and renames that were never catched with any UI or zypper up. And now you have a --from option (which is currently broken in RC1) so you can do zypper dup --from FooBar. So to summarize: Our tools may behave differently in 11.2 than they did in 11.1, but that doesn't mean we have to throw away the vendor stickyness feature. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 6:27 AM, Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> wrote:
This is something I've run into on 11.0. I installed Firefox 3.5 from the Mozilla repo, and then I have to continually check YaST to see if there is an update available for it once I see that there is an update. If there are security issues resolved by an update, then it should be flagged and you should see it in the opensuse-updater icon's list. While security isn't as much of an issue on Linux as it is on Windows, the updater should still show you that you have an update to whatever package you have chosen to install. So, if I choose to install libxine from pacman, then any updates for that package should now ONLY come from pacman and nowhere else. At least, that's how I see it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/10/23 Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com>:
That's a completely different problem. See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=418277 (probably there are more duplicates not marked as so...). I have no idea if the problem is fixed in 11.2 (I don't think so). Once the update applet/packagekit backend supports package updates (not just patch updates) then it could be discussed if the applet should inform about updates that require a vendor change or not. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (17)
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Anders Johansson
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Andrea Florio
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Atri
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Clayton
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Cristian Morales Vega
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Daniel Fuhrmann
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Jano Kupec
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Josef Reidinger
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Juergen Weigert
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Karsten König
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Larry Stotler
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Ludwig Nussel
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Marcus Meissner
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Martin Schlander
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Michael Schroeder
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Rastislav Krupanský
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Stephan Kulow