[opensuse-factory] libav and multimedia idea

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Tomáš Chvátal

10 Jul 2013 10 Jul '13

11:54

Hello guys, I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute. Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^. The possibility here is to include all the media players and stuff around it into openSUSE release, where one has to flip the switch in libav (see the spec file) and can build full-fledged-european-edition which can play our sweet movies. Let me know what you think about this plan and what would you use as base devel project for this. Cheers Tom [1] https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=home%3Ascarabeus_iv

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Cor Blom

10 Jul 10 Jul

12:16

Op woensdag 10 juli 13:54:36 schreef Tomáš Chvátal:

...

Hello guys,

I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute.

Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^.

The possibility here is to include all the media players and stuff around it into openSUSE release, where one has to flip the switch in libav (see the spec file) and can build full-fledged-european-edition which can play our sweet movies.

Let me know what you think about this plan and what would you use as base devel project for this.

Cheers

Tom

[1] https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=home%3Ascarabeus_iv

Great idea. But why the choicee for libav instead of ffmpeg? Just curious, because packman and the vlc repo have ffmpeg. Cor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a. Dimstar

15:14

Quoting Tomá? Chvátal :

...

Hello guys,

I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute.

Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^.

Frankly, I'm not in favor of this approach at all, mainly as it means that not only ADDING a package is sufficient, but you need to REPLACE a package. For VLC for example we have this solved in a way that the 'openSUSE provided' package is sufficient and does not have to be replaced, but an additional package 'vlc-codecs' can be installed to 'make it play more' (same as with GStreamer, where all free stuff is delivered by the dist.. other stuff comes from ADITIONAL packages). If you can rework it so that it becomes only 'additional files' from an addon package, then I like the idea :) Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

28 Jul 28 Jul

16:52

On 10 July 2013 16:14, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a. Dimstar wrote:

...

Quoting Tomá? Chvátal :

...
Hello guys,

I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute.

Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^.

Frankly, I'm not in favor of this approach at all, mainly as it means that not only ADDING a package is sufficient, but you need to REPLACE a package.

Why is this a problem?

...

For VLC for example we have this solved in a way that the 'openSUSE provided' package is sufficient and does not have to be replaced, but an additional package 'vlc-codecs' can be installed to 'make it play more' (same as with GStreamer, where all free stuff is delivered by the dist.. other stuff comes from ADITIONAL packages).

And there is any guarantee that vlc-codecs version X from Packman will be compatible with vlc Y from openSUSE Z? In these cases most of the time, to be safe, you just need to replace the base package anyway. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ludwig Nussel

30 Jul 30 Jul

14:47

Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a. Dimstar wrote:

...

Quoting Tomá? Chvátal :

...
I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute.

Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^.

Frankly, I'm not in favor of this approach at all, mainly as it means that not only ADDING a package is sufficient, but you need to REPLACE a package.

For VLC for example we have this solved in a way that the 'openSUSE provided' package is sufficient and does not have to be replaced, but an additional package 'vlc-codecs' can be installed to 'make it play more' (same as with GStreamer, where all free stuff is delivered by the dist.. other stuff comes from ADITIONAL packages).

If you can rework it so that it becomes only 'additional files' from an addon package, then I like the idea :)

I agree that the "make it play more" approach would be the preferred one. In some cases it's next to impossible or at least quite some non-trivial effort though. So IMO it's better to start with the simple approach and have the packages in Factory now rather than waiting forever for a perfect solution. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

28 Jul 28 Jul

16:56

On 10 July 2013 12:54, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:

...

Hello guys,

I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute.

Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^.

The possibility here is to include all the media players and stuff around it into openSUSE release, where one has to flip the switch in libav (see the spec file) and can build full-fledged-european-edition which can play our sweet movies.

Let me know what you think about this plan and what would you use as base devel project for this.

Whatever you do talk with Manfred Tremmel, from Packman, first. He maintains ffmpeg in there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

6 Dec 6 Dec

13:48

On 10 July 2013 12:54, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:

...

Hello guys,

I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute.

Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^.

The possibility here is to include all the media players and stuff around it into openSUSE release, where one has to flip the switch in libav (see the spec file) and can build full-fledged-european-edition which can play our sweet movies.

Let me know what you think about this plan and what would you use as base devel project for this.

Cheers

Tom

[1] https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=home%3Ascarabeus_iv

What's your plan? Understanding now that we are distributing ffmpeg anyway (inside Chromium, AFAIS is not libav) I am all for distributing it in a proper way. Some questions: a) There is any officially stated policy about security maintenance in either libav or ffmpeg? I see ffmpeg 0.5.13 was released on 2013-09-25, while 0.5 was released on 2009-03-02. So I am not soooo worried about this, but still it doesn't seem to be anything clearly stated. b) How is the compatibility between libav and ffmpeg? It's quite clear that the 0.5 series were compatible. I didn't look into it but it seems that as independent projects they have been correctly increasing the soname number whenever they did an incompatible change. But are they still using the same library names? Is the libavcodec/avformat/avutl/etc from libav 9.10 compatible with the versions from ffmpeg X (X being the branch using the same soname number)? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Tomáš Chvátal

14:08

Dne Pá 6. prosince 2013 13:48:12, Cristian Morales Vega napsal(a):

...

On 10 July 2013 12:54, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:

...
Hello guys,

I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute.

Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^.

The possibility here is to include all the media players and stuff around it into openSUSE release, where one has to flip the switch in libav (see the spec file) and can build full-fledged-european-edition which can play our sweet movies.

Let me know what you think about this plan and what would you use as base devel project for this.

Cheers

Tom

[1] https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=home%3Ascarabeus_iv

What's your plan? Understanding now that we are distributing ffmpeg anyway (inside Chromium, AFAIS is not libav) I am all for distributing it in a proper way.

Exactly we distribute it anyway. :) My plan for now is frozen in legal queue still. So after that happens

...

Some questions: a) There is any officially stated policy about security maintenance in either libav or ffmpeg? I see ffmpeg 0.5.13 was released on 2013-09-25, while 0.5 was released on 2009-03-02. So I am not soooo worried about this, but still it doesn't seem to be anything clearly stated.

I spoke with libav lads and they plan to support each branch for quite few years which is over our attention span. Also I can get them to provide the statement on web. I picked libav because nowdays they are more conservative in the features and thus less updates are usually needed when the release the thing. And as I know few people from the team they were really helpfull in identification of what is patented and whatnot and provided me the switches needed, etc. Also wrt support we can stick with the debian stuff here as if we match the versions we should be covered really well. Wether debian does it, or upstream does it and we can slack and play with other stuff :P

...

b) How is the compatibility between libav and ffmpeg? It's quite clear that the 0.5 series were compatible. I didn't look into it but it seems that as independent projects they have been correctly increasing the soname number whenever they did an incompatible change. But are they still using the same library names? Is the libavcodec/avformat/avutl/etc from libav 9.10 compatible with the versions from ffmpeg X (X being the branch using the same soname number)?

Quite-ish compatible I would say. 99% of the stuff is compatible. I am aware that the xbmc is not compatible with libav, but even tho there were some patches that enable the support they were not incorporated by upstream choice (I built it localy for testing purposes with it and it went fine tho, even my movie collection was played well). The sonames are set by both project properly so if the soname is equal the pkgs should run. One other issue might be with ffmpeg command, as libav provides different rewrote binary avconv. Provides +- equal functionality but the syntax is slightly different and I dunno if upstream plans to do something about it. Cheers Tom

Stefan Seyfried

14:41

Am 06.12.2013 15:08, schrieb Tomáš Chvátal:

...

Dne Pá 6. prosince 2013 13:48:12, Cristian Morales Vega napsal(a):

...
What's your plan? Understanding now that we are distributing ffmpeg anyway (inside Chromium, AFAIS is not libav) I am all for distributing it in a proper way.

Exactly we distribute it anyway. :)

My plan for now is frozen in legal queue still. So after that happens

...
Some questions: a) There is any officially stated policy about security maintenance in either libav or ffmpeg? I see ffmpeg 0.5.13 was released on 2013-09-25, while 0.5 was released on 2009-03-02. So I am not soooo worried about this, but still it doesn't seem to be anything clearly stated.

I spoke with libav lads and they plan to support each branch for quite few years which is over our attention span. Also I can get them to provide the statement on web.

I picked libav because nowdays they are more conservative in the features and

You mean: no new features for the last few years. I personally hate that.

...

thus less updates are usually needed when the release the thing. And as I know few people from the team they were really helpfull in identification of what is patented and whatnot and provided me the switches needed, etc.

Also wrt support we can stick with the debian stuff here as if we match the versions we should be covered really well. Wether debian does it, or upstream does it and we can slack and play with other stuff :P

Fortunately, the "get ffmpeg back into debian" movement is getting stronger, so even debian might have a proper package, soon ;-)

...

...
b) How is the compatibility between libav and ffmpeg? It's quite clear that the 0.5 series were compatible. I didn't look into it but it seems that as independent projects they have been correctly increasing the soname number whenever they did an incompatible change. But are they still using the same library names? Is the libavcodec/avformat/avutl/etc from libav 9.10 compatible with the versions from ffmpeg X (X being the branch using the same soname number)?

Quite-ish compatible I would say. 99% of the stuff is compatible.

Well, but only if the software is older than a few years. All the cool new useful features are in ffmpeg, none of them are in libavcodec. And stuff like libavfilter and swscale is very different IIRC (I'm not entirely sure what it was, but finally I decided to ditch the libav cr*p on my raspbian and compile a "real" ffmpeg to get anything useful done in my projects).

...

I am aware that the xbmc is not compatible with libav, but even tho there were some patches that enable the support they were not incorporated by upstream choice (I built it localy for testing purposes with it and it went fine tho, even my movie collection was played well).

Playing movies (e.g. just decoding common stuff) ist the least demanding stuff you can do with libav/ffmpeg. That's not a good benchmark.

...

The sonames are set by both project properly so if the soname is equal the pkgs should run.

One other issue might be with ffmpeg command, as libav provides different rewrote binary avconv. Provides +- equal functionality but the syntax is slightly different and I dunno if upstream plans to do something about it.

No, they deliberately changed stuff to be incompatible (also with the above mentioned filter/scale API differences), so I don't see them "fixing" it. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Claudio Freire

17:00

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

...
The sonames are set by both project properly so if the soname is equal the pkgs should run.

One other issue might be with ffmpeg command, as libav provides different rewrote binary avconv. Provides +- equal functionality but the syntax is slightly different and I dunno if upstream plans to do something about it.

No, they deliberately changed stuff to be incompatible (also with the above mentioned filter/scale API differences), so I don't see them "fixing" it.

As a user of the ffmpeg library (one of my own software - and package - does use it), I really don't like having libraries sharing the soname but not ABI. That will be a nightmare for us devs, and for them users. For me, it'll mean more ifdefs throughout the code to make my software compatible. For them, it will mean mayhem if they want to switch implementations, because they're not binary-compatible. For that reason alone, I'd just include ffmpeg (and forget about libav), or at least rename libav's libs (though I don't think this will be easy without upstream support). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

14 May 14 May

17:12

On 6 December 2013 14:08, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:

...

Dne Pá 6. prosince 2013 13:48:12, Cristian Morales Vega napsal(a):

...
On 10 July 2013 12:54, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:

...
Hello guys,

I have created proof of concept libav library with disabled patented codecs in my home project [1]. This means that this library si up par with what we have in chromium and it should be legal to distribute.

Apart from the library the repo contains vlc chromium and xbmc (built localy fails on obs, meh) which seems to run fine, just not to play almost anything ^_^.

The possibility here is to include all the media players and stuff around it into openSUSE release, where one has to flip the switch in libav (see the spec file) and can build full-fledged-european-edition which can play our sweet movies.

Let me know what you think about this plan and what would you use as base devel project for this.

Cheers

Tom

[1] https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=home%3Ascarabeus_iv

What's your plan? Understanding now that we are distributing ffmpeg anyway (inside Chromium, AFAIS is not libav) I am all for distributing it in a proper way.

Exactly we distribute it anyway. :)

My plan for now is frozen in legal queue still. So after that happens

legal rejected it or is it still in queue? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

6 Dec 6 Dec

17:28

On Friday 2013-12-06 14:48, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

On 10 July 2013 12:54, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:

Some questions: a) There is any officially stated policy about security maintenance in either libav or ffmpeg? I see ffmpeg 0.5.13 was released on 2013-09-25, while 0.5 was released on 2009-03-02. So I am not soooo worried about this, but still it doesn't seem to be anything clearly stated.

Packman delivers what appears to be "ffmpeg-2.1.1", and it ain't that old. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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Claudio Freire
Cor Blom
Cristian Morales Vega
Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a. Dimstar
Jan Engelhardt
Ludwig Nussel
Stefan Seyfried
Tomáš Chvátal

[opensuse-factory] libav and multimedia idea

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