Aw: Re: OT: Listinfo "[opensuse-factory]" at Subject missing
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information is missing. For me as normal user, it will be heavy to follow several lists (at the moment SUSE-Support, Factory, KDE and some others like Jitsi, FreiFunk (3 lists), Digikam and some others :-( Regards Ulf
Hi Ulf, ub22@gmx.net writes:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information is missing. For me as normal user, it will be heavy to follow several lists (at the moment SUSE-Support, Factory, KDE and some others like Jitsi, FreiFunk (3 lists), Digikam and some others :-(
This is a recent change that has been made so that the suse.com servers (which switched on strict DMARC checking) will not outright reject all emails from the opensuse mailing lists. I have been filtering emails using the To:/CC: field for a long time as it is much faster with notmuch than grep'ing the Subject:. Maybe you can do something like that as well? Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
On 03/12/2020 09.09, Dan Čermák wrote:
Hi Ulf,
ub22@gmx.net writes:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information ********** is missing. For me as normal user, it will be heavy to follow several lists (at the moment SUSE-Support, Factory, KDE and some others like Jitsi, FreiFunk (3 lists), Digikam and some others :-(
This is a recent change that has been made so that the suse.com servers (which switched on strict DMARC checking) will not outright reject all emails from the opensuse mailing lists.
I have been filtering emails using the To:/CC: field for a long time as it is much faster with notmuch than grep'ing the Subject:. Maybe you can do something like that as well?
How do you do that on a single folder? The INBOX folder of the ISP? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
"Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> writes:
On 03/12/2020 09.09, Dan Čermák wrote:
Hi Ulf,
ub22@gmx.net writes:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information ********** is missing. For me as normal user, it will be heavy to follow several lists (at the moment SUSE-Support, Factory, KDE and some others like Jitsi, FreiFunk (3 lists), Digikam and some others :-(
This is a recent change that has been made so that the suse.com servers (which switched on strict DMARC checking) will not outright reject all emails from the opensuse mailing lists.
I have been filtering emails using the To:/CC: field for a long time as it is much faster with notmuch than grep'ing the Subject:. Maybe you can do something like that as well?
How do you do that on a single folder?
I'm using notmuch and have this line in my post-new hook: notmuch tag +opensuse-factory -- to:factory@lists.opensuse.org and tag:new I could move the email then into a different folder based on the opensuse-factory tag, but with notmuch there's little reason to do so, so I just leave it in INBOX. But as I said, this is rather notmuch specific and might not work for your setup. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
On 03/12/2020 12.22, Dan Čermák wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <> writes:
On 03/12/2020 09.09, Dan Čermák wrote:
How do you do that on a single folder?
I'm using notmuch and have this line in my post-new hook:
notmuch tag +opensuse-factory -- to:factory@lists.opensuse.org and tag:new
I could move the email then into a different folder based on the opensuse-factory tag, but with notmuch there's little reason to do so, so I just leave it in INBOX.
But as I said, this is rather notmuch specific and might not work for your setup.
Sorry, I do not know what "notmuch" is. Do you have a description? Perhaps "rpm -i notmuch". The thing is, people that download the mail immediately to their own server can do "things" on the mail, like filtering to folders or modify them somehow. But people that read the mail directly at our ISP INBOX can do little. Even if the ISP allows sorting into several folders, that causes a new problem, namely how to download email to local machine at some point in time, because they can be distributed on dozens of different folders that require a separate download operation for each. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
"Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> writes:
On 03/12/2020 12.22, Dan Čermák wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <> writes:
On 03/12/2020 09.09, Dan Čermák wrote:
How do you do that on a single folder?
I'm using notmuch and have this line in my post-new hook:
notmuch tag +opensuse-factory -- to:factory@lists.opensuse.org and tag:new
I could move the email then into a different folder based on the opensuse-factory tag, but with notmuch there's little reason to do so, so I just leave it in INBOX.
But as I said, this is rather notmuch specific and might not work for your setup.
Sorry, I do not know what "notmuch" is. Do you have a description? Perhaps "rpm -i notmuch".
https://notmuchmail.org/ At it's core notmuch is an extremely fast email tagging and searching program. You give it a Maildir, a set of rules how to tag your email and that's about it. It can then display searches using tags, certain email headers (e.g. to, from) as well as ordinary full text search. And it comes with a UI for Emacs and vim. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
On 03/12/2020 13.33, Dan Čermák wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <> writes:
On 03/12/2020 12.22, Dan Čermák wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <> writes:
On 03/12/2020 09.09, Dan Čermák wrote:
But as I said, this is rather notmuch specific and might not work for your setup.
Sorry, I do not know what "notmuch" is. Do you have a description? Perhaps "rpm -i notmuch".
At it's core notmuch is an extremely fast email tagging and searching program. You give it a Maildir, a set of rules how to tag your email and that's about it. It can then display searches using tags, certain email headers (e.g. to, from) as well as ordinary full text search. And it comes with a UI for Emacs and vim.
Ah, ok. Then not possible for a user to run that at the ISP. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
On 2020/12/03 05:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 13.33, Dan Čermák wrote:
At it's core notmuch is an extremely fast email tagging and searching program. You give it a Maildir, a set of rules how to tag your email and that's about it. It can then display searches using tags, certain email headers (e.g. to, from) as well as ordinary full text search. And it comes with a UI for Emacs and vim.
Ah, ok. Then not possible for a user to run that at the ISP.
---- If you limit your email sorting to what your MSP (Mail Service Provider) supports, you need to make sure you use an MSP that supports what you need. Google has a large number of filtering options to put tags on email that are functionally similar to having email in multiple folders. There are many downsides to gmail, but if you need to filter everything from one folder, you can have it apply labels to things that match search criteria and everything with that label is shown in one "pseudo-folder". At the very least, you can forward all your current ISP mail to whatever MSP works for "you".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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On 05/12/2020 01.14, L A Walsh wrote:
On 2020/12/03 05:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 13.33, Dan Čermák wrote:
(feel free to answer on <users@lists.opensuse.org> if deemed too offtopic)
If you limit your email sorting to what your MSP (Mail Service Provider) supports, you need to make sure you use an MSP that supports what you need. Google has a large number of filtering options to put tags on email that are functionally similar to having email in multiple folders. There are many downsides to gmail, but if you need to filter everything from one folder, you can have it apply labels to things that match search criteria and everything with that label is shown in one "pseudo-folder". At the very least, you can forward all your current ISP mail to whatever MSP works for "you".
You may have missed or not noticed my explanation in this long thread, so I will try to do it again in as few words as I can manage - it is 4 AM here and bed is calling me ;-) *I do not want to do any filtering-sorting at the INBOX of my ISP* It is enough for me to sort by threads, and see the subjects listed to know to which list a thread belongs, I need no more. It is simple. Maintenance is nil. This will work no matter what computer I use, what client I use, whether I'm home, remote, travelling, or as guest on somebody else's computer, without having to run and maintain my own imap server and access it remotely. I have found that telling my mail client to display both "from" and "to" addresses I can guess the mail list. I will make mistakes, not see some posts, answer to the wrong mail list. So be it, we will have to live with it. My ISP limits storage to just 2 GB, but it is enough the way I use it. Every month I mark on the INBOX every mail older than 2 months and "fetch" them on a single operation to my main computer. There, ancient procmail rules will sort those emails into folders for long time archival. I'm not going to change this procedure. Capish? :-D -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2020/12/04 19:36, Carlos E. R. wrote:
It is simple. Maintenance is nil.
If it is simple, then there is no need for lists to edit Subject lines and add a listname, right? :-) Maintenance is nil because some lists added "List ID Text" to the subject -- certainly, NOT the place to put the list name, as that is derivable from the "To/From" headers.
This will work no matter what computer I use, what client I use, whether I'm home, remote, travelling, or as guest on somebody else's computer, without having to run and maintain my own imap server and access it remotely.
Yeah, I hear that. To read my email remotely, I would need to disable passwords for login (and only use a pre-generated certlist that is changed on some regular basis) and be able to use an 'ssh' session. Alternatively, I might be able to use Google's gmail IMAP if it really supports multiple folders and do the sorting on my machine, then upload my sorted mail to google via IMAP -- then I could read it using gmail's web interface. If I thought about it, I might find other, simpler ways to allow for remote mail access via "someone else's" IMAP server. All the times I traveled, I had access to my email server via a routed network connection to my laptop. This was sufficient for my needs at the time.
My ISP limits storage to just 2 GB, but it is enough the way I use it. Every month I mark on the INBOX every mail older than 2 months and "fetch" them on a single operation to my main computer. There, ancient procmail rules will sort those emails into folders for long time archival.
I'm not going to change this procedure.
If your home connection speed moves up to Gigabit, and it becomes more common to have multimedia in email, one good movie could exceed a 2GB limit, but I suspect that's far enough in the future given that some US ISP's (comcast) are charging more for smaller caps and lower speed limits in order to boost their profits without having to invest in more modern infrastructure.
Capish? :-D
I understand the difficulty in change. Sigh...
On 05/12/2020 10.08, L A Walsh wrote:
On 2020/12/04 19:36, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Yeah, I hear that. To read my email remotely, I would need to disable passwords for login (and only use a pre-generated certlist that is changed on some regular basis) and be able to use an 'ssh' session.
And have a router that doesn't hang...
Alternatively, I might be able to use Google's gmail IMAP if it really supports multiple folders and do the sorting on my machine, then upload my sorted mail to google via IMAP -- then I could read it using gmail's web interface. If I thought about it, I might find other, simpler ways to allow for remote mail access via "someone else's" IMAP server.
Interesting idea. ...
If your home connection speed moves up to Gigabit, and it becomes more common to have multimedia in email, one good movie could exceed a 2GB limit, but I suspect that's far enough in the future given that some US ISP's (comcast) are charging more for smaller caps and lower speed limits in order to boost their profits without having to invest in more modern infrastructure.
Oh, my ISP offers 1 GB next month, provided we rent the new router and we are on the high speed contract, which now gives 600. I'm on the low speed contract, 100 Mb/s, and I'm not changing unless I get more money :-p
Capish? :-D
I understand the difficulty in change. Sigh...
That's it. But I fear we are touching on offtopic, so if you want to continue, change the reply address to "users@lists.opensuse.org" -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 12.22, Dan Čermák wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <> writes:
On 03/12/2020 09.09, Dan Čermák wrote:
How do you do that on a single folder?
I'm using notmuch and have this line in my post-new hook:
notmuch tag +opensuse-factory -- to:factory@lists.opensuse.org and tag:new
I could move the email then into a different folder based on the opensuse-factory tag, but with notmuch there's little reason to do so, so I just leave it in INBOX.
But as I said, this is rather notmuch specific and might not work for your setup.
Sorry, I do not know what "notmuch" is. Do you have a description? Perhaps "rpm -i notmuch".
The thing is, people that download the mail immediately to their own server can do "things" on the mail, like filtering to folders or modify them somehow.
But people that read the mail directly at our ISP INBOX can do little.
That is a wildly inaccurate generalisation, Carlos. It depends entirely on how technically inept/adept your ISP is. Anyone with a suitably adept ISP that offer IMAP will likely also have the option to do server side filtering with sieve. It's standard stuff, not black magic.
Even if the ISP allows sorting into several folders, that causes a new problem, namely how to download email to local machine at some point in time, because they can be distributed on dozens of different folders that require a separate download operation for each.
Actually, with IMAP it is a simple drap-and-drop operation. No separate download operation required. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-0.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 03/12/2020 20.27, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
The thing is, people that download the mail immediately to their own server can do "things" on the mail, like filtering to folders or modify them somehow.
But people that read the mail directly at our ISP INBOX can do little.
That is a wildly inaccurate generalisation, Carlos. It depends entirely on how technically inept/adept your ISP is.
Or what they allow "for free". A commercial decision. Last time I looked, Telefonica offered nothing.
Anyone with a suitably adept ISP that offer IMAP will likely also have the option to do server side filtering with sieve. It's standard stuff, not black magic.
Even if the ISP allows sorting into several folders, that causes a new problem, namely how to download email to local machine at some point in time, because they can be distributed on dozens of different folders that require a separate download operation for each.
Actually, with IMAP it is a simple drap-and-drop operation. No separate download operation required.
No. fetchmail: poll imap.telefonica.net with proto imap timeout 20, and tracepolls user USER, with password PASS, is cer here, and fetchall, expunge 20, folders Inbox, Spam, Junk · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ************************* I have to list every folder, one by one, with the correct names. But the result is one merged mail stream, no folders. I have to filter it again with procmail. So, my workload doubles: define a set of filters at provider, define another set of filters locally. With Thunderbird, drag and drop a folder does not work. Try. It is select messages in one folder, right click, move to, select destination folder. One by one. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 20.27, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Even if the ISP allows sorting into several folders, that causes a new problem, namely how to download email to local machine at some point in time, because they can be distributed on dozens of different folders that require a separate download operation for each.
Actually, with IMAP it is a simple drap-and-drop operation. No separate download operation required.
No.
[big snip]
With Thunderbird, drag and drop a folder does not work. Try.
I really think we have gone wayyyy off-topic, but if you insist. With Thunderbird: Hold down the Ctrl key (for a _copy_ operation) and use the mouse to drag a folder from the IMAP account to e.g. "Local Folders". That creates a copy of the entire tree, messages are downloaded etc. I have just now (to double check) copied "ml-admin", a subfolder under my Inbox on my opensuse.org IMAP account, with two more levels of subfolders, and some 3000 messages in total. Took a little more than 30 seconds.
It is select messages in one folder, right click, move to, select destination folder. One by one.
See above. If necessary I'll be happy to make a video? I made a couple of screenshots, see attached. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 04/12/2020 14.15, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 20.27, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Even if the ISP allows sorting into several folders, that causes a new problem, namely how to download email to local machine at some point in time, because they can be distributed on dozens of different folders that require a separate download operation for each.
Actually, with IMAP it is a simple drap-and-drop operation. No separate download operation required.
No.
[big snip]
With Thunderbird, drag and drop a folder does not work. Try.
I really think we have gone wayyyy off-topic, but if you insist. With Thunderbird:
You know I have no objection to move to another list. I was only replying to your posts. Continuing on the standard mail list. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 08:27:58PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 12.22, Dan Čermák wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <> writes:
On 03/12/2020 09.09, Dan Čermák wrote:
How do you do that on a single folder?
I'm using notmuch and have this line in my post-new hook:
notmuch tag +opensuse-factory -- to:factory@lists.opensuse.org and tag:new
I could move the email then into a different folder based on the opensuse-factory tag, but with notmuch there's little reason to do so, so I just leave it in INBOX.
But as I said, this is rather notmuch specific and might not work for your setup.
Sorry, I do not know what "notmuch" is. Do you have a description? Perhaps "rpm -i notmuch".
The thing is, people that download the mail immediately to their own server can do "things" on the mail, like filtering to folders or modify them somehow.
But people that read the mail directly at our ISP INBOX can do little.
That is a wildly inaccurate generalisation, Carlos. It depends entirely on how technically inept/adept your ISP is. Anyone with a suitably adept ISP that offer IMAP will likely also have the option to do server side filtering with sieve. It's standard stuff, not black magic. No, not really. If I received opensuse lists on my personal e-mail I would be pissed off right now.
Please consider the fact that for most people that use webmail there is no filtering option available. Thanks Michal
Michal Suchánek wrote:
On Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 08:27:58PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
But people that read the mail directly at our ISP INBOX can do little.
That is a wildly inaccurate generalisation, Carlos. It depends entirely on how technically inept/adept your ISP is. Anyone with a suitably adept ISP that offer IMAP will likely also have the option to do server side filtering with sieve. It's standard stuff, not black magic.
No, not really. If I received opensuse lists on my personal e-mail I would be pissed off right now.
Without this change, postings with your corporate address would be quarantined or rejeted by any server that implements DMARC.
Please consider the fact that for most people that use webmail there is no filtering option available.
Fwiw, I don't know that is a fact. Webmail is merely an interface, popular webmail apps such as roundcube, SOGo, squirrelmail or zimbra all offer server-side filtering with sieve. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 04/12/2020 13.36, Per Jessen wrote:
Michal Suchánek wrote:
Fwiw, I don't know that is a fact. Webmail is merely an interface, popular webmail apps such as roundcube, SOGo, squirrelmail or zimbra all offer server-side filtering with sieve.
I just had a look at my ISP offering. There is no "filter" menu. However, there is a context menu when opening an email, and on it, there is create filter. I tried it on the test list. Result: - The filter creates two copies of the email onto INBOX/test - I can no longer edit the filter, it is lost from view. I can not adjust it. - Thunderbird does not show it under INBOX, but in another part altogether, with no indication that there are new mails there. I would have to create dozens of rules, which would hide emails from view, making more difficult to find them, not easier, because Thunderbird does not show them under INBOX/subfolder (the operation ISP does is "archive", not "move"). Neither does Alpine, I would have to define also dozens of subfolders views, and repeat the task on each of my computers and partitions. And, I would have to create/maintain those filters at ISP, then repeat the work on procmail on every computer - because the ISP storage is just 2GB, I have to eventually download emails to local. And the download operation gets more complex, having to download from several folders. No, this is a nightmare and much more work for me. I will keep all emails in the single INBOX as always, and we will have to assume that I will make mistakes confusing one mail list with another, and that I will miss emails, even those directly addressed to me. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-04-20 08:28]:
On 04/12/2020 13.36, Per Jessen wrote:
Michal Suchánek wrote:
Fwiw, I don't know that is a fact. Webmail is merely an interface, popular webmail apps such as roundcube, SOGo, squirrelmail or zimbra all offer server-side filtering with sieve.
I just had a look at my ISP offering. There is no "filter" menu.
However, there is a context menu when opening an email, and on it, there is create filter. I tried it on the test list.
Result:
- The filter creates two copies of the email onto INBOX/test - I can no longer edit the filter, it is lost from view. I can not adjust it. - Thunderbird does not show it under INBOX, but in another part altogether, with no indication that there are new mails there.
I would have to create dozens of rules, which would hide emails from view, making more difficult to find them, not easier, because Thunderbird does not show them under INBOX/subfolder (the operation ISP does is "archive", not "move").
Neither does Alpine, I would have to define also dozens of subfolders views, and repeat the task on each of my computers and partitions.
And, I would have to create/maintain those filters at ISP, then repeat the work on procmail on every computer - because the ISP storage is just 2GB, I have to eventually download emails to local. And the download operation gets more complex, having to download from several folders.
No, this is a nightmare and much more work for me.
I will keep all emails in the single INBOX as always, and we will have to assume that I will make mistakes confusing one mail list with another, and that I will miss emails, even those directly addressed to me.
[-- Error: unable to create PGP subprocess! --] so your chosen client is now unsuitable as you wish to use it. time to change clients. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
Am Freitag, 4. Dezember 2020, 13:36:38 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Michal Suchánek wrote:
No, not really. If I received opensuse lists on my personal e-mail I would be pissed off right now.
Without this change, postings with your corporate address would be quarantined or rejeted by any server that implements DMARC.
That's the point, that I don't grasp, Per. Do you say, that adding a list tag to the subject my eg. mailman results in DMARC invalidation? I cannot find a reference to this in the DMARC description. If this is discussed elsewhere, could you point me there? Thanks & Cheers, Pete
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. Dezember 2020, 13:36:38 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Michal Suchánek wrote:
No, not really. If I received opensuse lists on my personal e-mail I would be pissed off right now.
Without this change, postings with your corporate address would be quarantined or rejeted by any server that implements DMARC.
That's the point, that I don't grasp, Per. Do you say, that adding a list tag to the subject my eg. mailman results in DMARC invalidation? I cannot find a reference to this in the DMARC description.
If this is discussed elsewhere, could you point me there?
Hi Pete I think it has been described and discussed a couple of times, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it :-) when a domain (in this example "suse.com") uses DKIM signatures, a hash of the email contents is added to an email. The hash usually includes a selection of headers and the email body. If any of those headers or the body is altered, the hash no longer matches (when checked on the receiving end) and we have a DKIM failure. With DMARC, the domain specifies what should happen in that case, quarantine or reject. Hope this helps. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On Fri, Dec 04, 2020 at 02:57:10PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. Dezember 2020, 13:36:38 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Michal Suchánek wrote:
No, not really. If I received opensuse lists on my personal e-mail I would be pissed off right now.
Without this change, postings with your corporate address would be quarantined or rejeted by any server that implements DMARC.
That's the point, that I don't grasp, Per. Do you say, that adding a list tag to the subject my eg. mailman results in DMARC invalidation? I cannot find a reference to this in the DMARC description.
If this is discussed elsewhere, could you point me there?
Hi Pete
I think it has been described and discussed a couple of times, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it :-)
when a domain (in this example "suse.com") uses DKIM signatures, a hash of the email contents is added to an email. The hash usually includes a selection of headers and the email body. That's the key - a selection. Does the selection ahve to include teh subject?
Thanks Michal
04.12.2020 17:35, Michal Suchánek пишет:
On Fri, Dec 04, 2020 at 02:57:10PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. Dezember 2020, 13:36:38 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Michal Suchánek wrote:
No, not really. If I received opensuse lists on my personal e-mail I would be pissed off right now.
Without this change, postings with your corporate address would be quarantined or rejeted by any server that implements DMARC.
That's the point, that I don't grasp, Per. Do you say, that adding a list tag to the subject my eg. mailman results in DMARC invalidation? I cannot find a reference to this in the DMARC description.
If this is discussed elsewhere, could you point me there?
Hi Pete
I think it has been described and discussed a couple of times, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it :-)
when a domain (in this example "suse.com") uses DKIM signatures, a hash of the email contents is added to an email. The hash usually includes a selection of headers and the email body. That's the key - a selection. Does the selection ahve to include teh subject?
It is recommended but not required. OTOH receiving party is free to not trust signature if it includes "not enough" fields ... :) But reading RFC 4871: Entities such as mailing list managers that implement DKIM and that modify the message or a header field (for example, inserting unsubscribe information) before retransmitting the message SHOULD check any existing signature on input and MUST make such modifications before re-signing the message. IOW mailman /could/ check existing DKIM signature, insert ARC header that confirms that message was successfully validated and then add DKIM-Signature header that covers modified message.
On 04/12/2020 15.43, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
04.12.2020 17:35, Michal Suchánek пишет:
But reading RFC 4871:
Entities such as mailing list managers that implement DKIM and that modify the message or a header field (for example, inserting unsubscribe information) before retransmitting the message SHOULD check any existing signature on input and MUST make such modifications before re-signing the message.
IOW mailman /could/ check existing DKIM signature, insert ARC header that confirms that message was successfully validated and then add DKIM-Signature header that covers modified message.
WOW :-DDD I like that idea. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 04/12/2020 15.35, Michal Suchánek wrote:
On Fri, Dec 04, 2020 at 02:57:10PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
when a domain (in this example "suse.com") uses DKIM signatures, a hash of the email contents is added to an email. The hash usually includes a selection of headers and the email body. That's the key - a selection. Does the selection ahve to include teh subject?
It is not the choice of the mail list, often not even under the control of the user. It is a policy decided by the employer (SUSE, for instance) or the ISP. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am Freitag, 4. Dezember 2020, 14:57:10 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. Dezember 2020, 13:36:38 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
Michal Suchánek wrote:
No, not really. If I received opensuse lists on my personal e-mail I would be pissed off right now.
Without this change, postings with your corporate address would be quarantined or rejeted by any server that implements DMARC.
That's the point, that I don't grasp, Per. Do you say, that adding a list tag to the subject my eg. mailman results in DMARC invalidation? I cannot find a reference to this in the DMARC description.
If this is discussed elsewhere, could you point me there?
Hi Pete
I think it has been described and discussed a couple of times, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it :-)
Thanks for your patience. Much appreciated.
when a domain (in this example "suse.com") uses DKIM signatures, a hash of the email contents is added to an email. The hash usually includes a selection of headers and the email body.
If any of those headers or the body is altered, the hash no longer matches (when checked on the receiving end) and we have a DKIM failure. With DMARC, the domain specifies what should happen in that case, quarantine or reject.
As others noted, it's mostly a matter of serializing any modification in a correct order, isn't it? Especially, given, that mailman adds a complete footer to every mail (for good reasons). Why is it okay to alter the body, but not the subject? Any alterations had to be done before calculating the hashes anyway. Cheers, Pete
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
when a domain (in this example "suse.com") uses DKIM signatures, a hash of the email contents is added to an email. The hash usually includes a selection of headers and the email body.
If any of those headers or the body is altered, the hash no longer matches (when checked on the receiving end) and we have a DKIM failure. With DMARC, the domain specifies what should happen in that case, quarantine or reject.
As others noted, it's mostly a matter of serializing any modification in a correct order, isn't it?
Not quite, no. The only real alternative we have is to sign the redistributed messages ourselves, but now the message will be coming from the list, not from the original sender. This option was dismissed as being the least user friendly.
Especially, given, that mailman adds a complete footer to every mail (for good reasons). Why is it okay to alter the body, but not the subject? Any alterations had to be done before calculating the hashes anyway.
Don't worry, the footer will be going away too. I have just not yet managed to find the magic mailman incantation that lets me override the default footers. (no joke, my overrides simply don't work). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
04.12.2020 18:55, Per Jessen пишет:
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
when a domain (in this example "suse.com") uses DKIM signatures, a hash of the email contents is added to an email. The hash usually includes a selection of headers and the email body.
If any of those headers or the body is altered, the hash no longer matches (when checked on the receiving end) and we have a DKIM failure. With DMARC, the domain specifies what should happen in that case, quarantine or reject.
Right now as you already noted mailman adds footer which always invalidates original DKIM signature. And SPF is fundamentally incompatible with DMARC. Still apparently messages are not bounced, right? If body is altered anyway, does it matter if you also alter header additionally?
As others noted, it's mostly a matter of serializing any modification in a correct order, isn't it?
Not quite, no. The only real alternative we have is to sign the redistributed messages ourselves, but now the message will be coming from the list, not from the original sender. This option was dismissed as being the least user friendly.
Actually the real alternative seems to be ARC (Authenticated Received Chain), at least long term. As mentioned in https://dmarc.org/2019/07/arc-protocol-published-as-rfc-8617/ mailman seems to support it.
Especially, given, that mailman adds a complete footer to every mail (for good reasons). Why is it okay to alter the body, but not the subject? Any alterations had to be done before calculating the hashes anyway.
Don't worry, the footer will be going away too. I have just not yet managed to find the magic mailman incantation that lets me override the default footers. (no joke, my overrides simply don't work).
Still - why it does not cause bounces even though openSUSE lists apparently stopped stripping off DKIM-Signature which are invalidated?
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
Right now as you already noted mailman adds footer which always invalidates original DKIM signature.
Yup.
And SPF is fundamentally incompatible with DMARC. Still apparently messages are not bounced, right? If body is altered anyway, does it matter if you also alter header additionally?
Nope, that does not matter - invalid is invalid, it can't get any more invalid :-)
Still apparently messages are not bounced, right?
Some _are_ being quarantined, e.g. by google. See my reply further down.
As others noted, it's mostly a matter of serializing any modification in a correct order, isn't it?
Not quite, no. The only real alternative we have is to sign the redistributed messages ourselves, but now the message will be coming from the list, not from the original sender. This option was dismissed as being the least user friendly.
Actually the real alternative seems to be ARC (Authenticated Received Chain), at least long term. As mentioned in
https://dmarc.org/2019/07/arc-protocol-published-as-rfc-8617/
mailman seems to support it.
I have not yet looked at ARC, it is very new I believe. Also, this whole DMARC debacle is being driven by SUSE, not openSUSE.
Especially, given, that mailman adds a complete footer to every mail (for good reasons). Why is it okay to alter the body, but not the subject? Any alterations had to be done before calculating the hashes anyway.
Don't worry, the footer will be going away too. I have just not yet managed to find the magic mailman incantation that lets me override the default footers. (no joke, my overrides simply don't work).
Still - why it does not cause bounces even though openSUSE lists apparently stopped stripping off DKIM-Signature which are invalidated?
It is a very good point, one I have hesitated bringing up myself. Frankly, I have my serious doubts about the true efficiency of DMARC. The large providers may well implement DMARC, certainly, but around the world there will be a gazillion of smaller providers and mailservers that simply don't care or do not have the staff with appropriate technical skills. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
06.12.2020 20:27, Per Jessen пишет:
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
Right now as you already noted mailman adds footer which always invalidates original DKIM signature.
Yup.
And SPF is fundamentally incompatible with DMARC. Still apparently messages are not bounced, right? If body is altered anyway, does it matter if you also alter header additionally?
Nope, that does not matter - invalid is invalid, it can't get any more invalid :-)
Still apparently messages are not bounced, right?
Some _are_ being quarantined, e.g. by google. See my reply further down.
You are right, I forgot that I disabled spam filtering for mailing lists. I do not see it when using local mail client, but web interface marks messages with failed DKIM signature as spam. At least Google does not reject them right away even with reject DMARC policy.
Hi, Am 06.12.20 um 18:27 schrieb Per Jessen:
Nope, that does not matter - invalid is invalid, it can't get any more invalid :-)
Are you aware of mailman's feature DMARC mitigations? https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/do...
Benjamin Greiner wrote:
Hi,
Am 06.12.20 um 18:27 schrieb Per Jessen:
Nope, that does not matter - invalid is invalid, it can't get any more invalid :-)
Are you aware of mailman's feature DMARC mitigations?
https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/do...
Yes, we are aware, but unless we have missed something, they are useless. Feel free to point us in the right direction though, we may well have missed something. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.0°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
Am 07.12.20 um 21:05 schrieb Per Jessen:
Benjamin Greiner wrote:
Hi,
Am 06.12.20 um 18:27 schrieb Per Jessen:
Nope, that does not matter - invalid is invalid, it can't get any more invalid :-)
Are you aware of mailman's feature DMARC mitigations?
https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/do... Yes, we are aware, but unless we have missed something, they are useless. Feel free to point us in the right direction though, we may well have missed something.
No I haven't any experience with the feature. But the description says they do what you need, and I always wondered about that page in the mailman list configuration webview. Good Luck!
Hi Per,
Yes, we are aware of [Mailman's DMARC mitigation], but unless we have missed something, they are useless.
well, these features are certainly not useless. I've been using them with good success for those mailing lists that I maintain privately. Could you be a little bit more specific about what you mean by "useless"? What would you expect Mailmain to do that it doesn't? Best regards, Peter
Peter Simons wrote:
Hi Per,
Yes, we are aware of [Mailman's DMARC mitigation], but unless we have missed something, they are useless.
well, these features are certainly not useless. I've been using them with good success for those mailing lists that I maintain privately.
Could you be a little bit more specific about what you mean by "useless"?
Hi Peter AFAICT, mailman offers only two (marginally useful) options, per list - replace from with list address or wrap message in an outer message. Neither is of much use to us, we don't want the From: address to change.
What would you expect Mailmain to do that it doesn't?
Well, optimally we would want to keep our [LISTNAME] Subject prefix and our helpful footer :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 1:51 PM Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote:
AFAICT, mailman offers only two (marginally useful) options, per list - replace from with list address or wrap message in an outer message.
The third option is to reject submission from domains with enabled DMARC right away :)
On 12/8/20 11:51 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
AFAICT, mailman offers only two (marginally useful) options, per list - replace from with list address or wrap message in an outer message. Neither is of much use to us, we don't want the From: address to change.
What would you expect Mailmain to do that it doesn't?
Well, optimally we would want to keep our [LISTNAME] Subject prefix and our helpful footer :-)
Yes, DMARC is enabled for more and more domains to improve delivery to those recipient domains with stricter DMARC policy enforcement. We have to accept that. Deal with it. To me mailman's munge_from option seems to be a viable approach. AFAICT this would allow keeping the [LISTNAME] subject prefix. Ciao, Michael.
Michael Strc3b6der wrote:
On 12/8/20 11:51 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
AFAICT, mailman offers only two (marginally useful) options, per list - replace from with list address or wrap message in an outer message. Neither is of much use to us, we don't want the From: address to change.
What would you expect Mailmain to do that it doesn't?
Well, optimally we would want to keep our [LISTNAME] Subject prefix and our helpful footer :-)
Yes, DMARC is enabled for more and more domains to improve delivery to those recipient domains with stricter DMARC policy enforcement.
We have to accept that. Deal with it.
To me mailman's munge_from option seems to be a viable approach. AFAICT this would allow keeping the [LISTNAME] subject prefix.
We have dismissed that option as the least user friendly, because it would mean having the list as the sender address. Removing the LISTNAME prefix was considered minimal impact as the name of the list is available in the List-ID header. (for those who disagree, it has been noted). I think everyone would have preferred keeping the friendly and useful footer, but that has to go too. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 12/8/20 3:29 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Michael Ströder wrote:
To me mailman's munge_from option seems to be a viable approach. AFAICT this would allow keeping the [LISTNAME] subject prefix.
We have dismissed that option as the least user friendly, because it would mean having the list as the sender address.
Bad choice. Many mailman instances use munge_from because not using it...
Removing the LISTNAME prefix was considered minimal impact as the name of the list is available in the List-ID header. (for those who disagree, it has been noted). I think everyone would have preferred keeping the friendly and useful footer, but that has to go too.
...would result in the above less user-friendly alternatives, such as removing subject prefix and list footer, and overall decreased deliverability. Ciao, Michael.
On 12/8/20 3:41 PM, Michael Ströder wrote:
On 12/8/20 3:29 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Michael Ströder wrote:
To me mailman's munge_from option seems to be a viable approach. AFAICT this would allow keeping the [LISTNAME] subject prefix.
We have dismissed that option as the least user friendly, because it would mean having the list as the sender address.
Bad choice.
BTW: Each posting to this mailing list generates several DMARC report messages delivered to my Inbox (called "Forensic report", huuhuuhuuuu). Being my own mail admin I asked for it and I can deal with it. But other MTA admins could decide to solve this "issue" by simply disallowing e-mail from openSUSE's mailing lists. => Use munge_from. It's the least bad option you have as a list admin. Ciao, Michael.
* Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> [12-08-20 20:31]:
On 12/8/20 3:41 PM, Michael Ströder wrote:
On 12/8/20 3:29 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Michael Ströder wrote:
To me mailman's munge_from option seems to be a viable approach. AFAICT this would allow keeping the [LISTNAME] subject prefix.
We have dismissed that option as the least user friendly, because it would mean having the list as the sender address.
Bad choice.
BTW: Each posting to this mailing list generates several DMARC report messages delivered to my Inbox (called "Forensic report", huuhuuhuuuu). Being my own mail admin I asked for it and I can deal with it.
But other MTA admins could decide to solve this "issue" by simply disallowing e-mail from openSUSE's mailing lists.
=> Use munge_from. It's the least bad option you have as a list admin.
and may even stop duplicate msgs as personal replies to list posts. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
Hi Per,
AFAICT, mailman offers only two (marginally useful) options, per list - replace from with list address or wrap message in an outer message. Neither is of much use to us, we don't want the From: address to change.
you realize, though, that it's impossible to keep "From:" as-is if you want to deliver postings reliably to all recipients? If you keep the original "From:", then those the postings will potentially fail the SPF check. I have that exact problem with my private domain cryp.to. I cannot post as simons@cryp.to to mailing lists that don't re-write "From:" because sites like gmail.com will reject those messages. When I found out about that, I could not believe that they would check the SPF records against the "From:" header found in the message payload, but, well, they do. The only solution for me was to introduce a sub-domain nospf.cryp.to that doesn't have SPF records at all, and then I can use that domain to post to lists that don't re-write "From:".
What would you expect Mailmain to do that it doesn't?
Well, optimally we would want to keep our [LISTNAME] Subject prefix and our helpful footer :-)
You can! All you have to do is to make sure that your mail server creates a proper DMARC signature and rewrites the "From:" header for those addresses that have SPF records defined. That's exactly how I run my lists in mailman and it works fine. Best regards, Peter
On 12/8/20 12:35 PM, Peter Simons wrote:
If you keep the original "From:", then those the postings will potentially fail the SPF check.
IIRC SPF was formerly only applied to envelope sender which was no problem for mailing lists. DMARC introduced checking the From: header.
I have that exact problem with my private domain cryp.to. I cannot post as simons@cryp.to to mailing lists that don't re-write "From:" because sites like gmail.com will reject those messages. Well, it's your personal decision to use p=reject in your TXT RR for _dmarc.cryp.to and therefore tell receiving MTAs to reject your messages forwarded by mailman.
I'm using p=quarantine so my messages forwarded by mailman will probably go to the subscribers' spam folder. Maybe subscribers can tweak their spam processing by adding allow filters. But who knows... I'm lurking on the mailop mailing list. There it seems this whole stuff is pretty much moving target. Anyway I'm for using mailman's munge_from option because I don't see any real issues with it. Ciao, Michael.
Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> writes:
Well, it's your personal decision to use p=reject in your TXT RR for _dmarc.cryp.to and therefore tell receiving MTAs to reject your messages forwarded by mailman.
I'm using p=quarantine so my messages forwarded by mailman will probably go to the subscribers' spam folder.
I think it's preferable to have those messages rejected -- which means you'll get a notification that it wasn't delivered -- over having them silently delivered into a junkyard where nobody will ever see them. p=quarantine does not strike me as a solution for the whole SPF/DMARC problem. Injecting all e-mail messages with a proper envelope, signature, and "From:" header is. Best regards, Peter
On 12/8/20 1:04 PM, Peter Simons wrote:
Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> writes:
Well, it's your personal decision to use p=reject in your TXT RR for _dmarc.cryp.to and therefore tell receiving MTAs to reject your messages forwarded by mailman.
I'm using p=quarantine so my messages forwarded by mailman will probably go to the subscribers' spam folder.
I think it's preferable to have those messages rejected -- which means you'll get a notification that it wasn't delivered -- over having them silently delivered into a junkyard where nobody will ever see them.
p=quarantine does not strike me as a solution for the whole SPF/DMARC problem. Injecting all e-mail messages with a proper envelope, signature, and "From:" header is.
I'm not making any recommendation for your DMARC sender policy. Just wanted to point out that it's your own decision that your postings to mailing lists not modifying the From: header will be completely rejected. Probably you already knew that but it's important that *everybody* clearly understands it. Ciao, Michael.
On 1/8/21 10:03 AM, Philippe Conde wrote:
Michael Ströder a écrit :
On 12/8/20 1:04 PM, Peter Simons wrote:
p=quarantine does not strike me as a solution for the whole SPF/DMARC problem. Injecting all e-mail messages with a proper envelope, signature, and "From:" header is. I'm not making any recommendation for your DMARC sender policy.
Just wanted to point out that it's your own decision that your postings to mailing lists not modifying the From: header will be completely rejected.
Probably you already knew that but it's important that *everybody* clearly understands it.
I don't more receive mails from this list since 22 december and I received a mail cancelling my address due to bouncing message. My mailhost provider (proximus.be) says that nothing changed on their side. Is my problem related to your remarl about the dmarc policy?
I doubt that your particular issue is a DMARC issue. But I don't know for sure. Maybe you should send an e-mail giving more info to admin@opensuse.org which also creates a ticket. (I've deliberately sent you a personal response additionally to the response sent to the list.) Ciao, Michael.
Citeren Peter Simons <psimons@suse.de>:
Hi Per,
AFAICT, mailman offers only two (marginally useful) options, per list - replace from with list address or wrap message in an outer message. Neither is of much use to us, we don't want the From: address to change.
you realize, though, that it's impossible to keep "From:" as-is if you want to deliver postings reliably to all recipients?
If you keep the original "From:", then those the postings will potentially fail the SPF check. I have that exact problem with my private domain cryp.to. I cannot post as simons@cryp.to to mailing lists that don't re-write "From:" because sites like gmail.com will reject those messages. When I found out about that, I could not believe that they would check the SPF records against the "From:" header found in the message payload, but, well, they do. The only solution for me was to introduce a sub-domain nospf.cryp.to that doesn't have SPF records at all, and then I can use that domain to post to lists that don't re-write "From:".
Wonderful, SenderID abusing SPF records and failing miserably. What a surprise... :-(
What would you expect Mailmain to do that it doesn't?
Well, optimally we would want to keep our [LISTNAME] Subject prefix and our helpful footer :-)
You can! All you have to do is to make sure that your mail server creates a proper DMARC signature and rewrites the "From:" header for those addresses that have SPF records defined. That's exactly how I run my lists in mailman and it works fine.
Best regards, Peter _______________________________________________ openSUSE Factory mailing list -- factory@lists.opensuse.org To unsubscribe, email factory-leave@lists.opensuse.org List Netiquette: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette List Archives: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org
Peter Simons wrote:
Hi Per,
AFAICT, mailman offers only two (marginally useful) options, per list - replace from with list address or wrap message in an outer message. Neither is of much use to us, we don't want the From: address to change.
you realize, though, that it's impossible to keep "From:" as-is if you want to deliver postings reliably to all recipients?
Well, for at least the last four years, it has not caused us any problems. (i.e. I haven't seen any tickets nor have I heard anyone complain).
If you keep the original "From:", then those the postings will potentially fail the SPF check. I have that exact problem with my private domain cryp.to. I cannot post as simons@cryp.to to mailing lists that don't re-write "From:" because sites like gmail.com will reject those messages. When I found out about that, I could not believe that they would check the SPF records against the "From:" header found in the message payload, but, well, they do.
That is certainly non-standard. It should really only be checked on the envelope address. Besides, if we were to fiddle with the From: header, the DKIM validation would likely fail.
What would you expect Mailmain to do that it doesn't?
Well, optimally we would want to keep our [LISTNAME] Subject prefix and our helpful footer :-)
You can! All you have to do is to make sure that your mail server creates a proper DMARC signature and rewrites the "From:" header for those addresses that have SPF records defined. That's exactly how I run my lists in mailman and it works fine.
Well, I should obviously have re-iterated our objective#1: keeping the From: header intact. Anyway, isn't this all a bit off topic here on this list? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 12/8/20 3:43 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Peter Simons wrote:
AFAICT, mailman offers only two (marginally useful) options, per list - replace from with list address or wrap message in an outer message. Neither is of much use to us, we don't want the From: address to change.
you realize, though, that it's impossible to keep "From:" as-is if you want to deliver postings reliably to all recipients?
Well, for at least the last four years, it has not caused us any problems. (i.e. I haven't seen any tickets nor have I heard anyone complain).
That's not a real argument because MTA admins just began to implement SPF/DKIM/DMARC during the last two years.
If you keep the original "From:", then those the postings will potentially fail the SPF check. I have that exact problem with my private domain cryp.to. I cannot post as simons@cryp.to to mailing lists that don't re-write "From:" because sites like gmail.com will reject those messages. When I found out about that, I could not believe that they would check the SPF records against the "From:" header found in the message payload, but, well, they do.
That is certainly non-standard. It should really only be checked on the envelope address.
This ship has sailed with the continously growing adoption of DMARC. Like it or not you have to use munge_from.
Besides, if we were to fiddle with the From: header, the DKIM validation would likely fail.
That's why you also strip old DKIM headers and let your MTA re-sign the new message.
Anyway, isn't this all a bit off topic here on this list?
I agree. Move that to heroes list? Ciao, Michael.
Hi, Am 06.12.20 um 18:27 schrieb Per Jessen:
Nope, that does not matter - invalid is invalid, it can't get any more invalid :-)
Are you aware of mailman's feature DMARC mitigations? https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/do...
On 03/12/2020 20.27, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 12.22, Dan Čermák wrote:
...
The thing is, people that download the mail immediately to their own server can do "things" on the mail, like filtering to folders or modify them somehow.
But people that read the mail directly at our ISP INBOX can do little.
That is a wildly inaccurate generalisation, Carlos. It depends entirely on how technically inept/adept your ISP is. Anyone with a suitably adept ISP that offer IMAP will likely also have the option to do server side filtering with sieve. It's standard stuff, not black magic.
I forgot another issue. Consider gmail - gmail webmail does offer filters, but not to folders: they use "labels" instead (and in my case, they work badly). I'm not sure how they translate to imap: my opensuse "label" has 85000 emails, and every time I tried Thunderbird was stuck for many minutes and I had to abort the try. The Inbox is aware of what I downloaded to my computer and has only a few thousands emails, but the "label" has every single one since beginning of times. Another issue. Suppose I use gmail to reply t a list. Someone replies to me, and as is often the case, they use "reply to all". So they do: TO: factory@lists.opensuse.org CC: carlos@gmail Now, the "carlos@gmail" mail arrives earlier, much less hops in every case. When the mail from the mail list arrives, it is consider duplicate and will be removed automatically by gmail servers. Thus, the list sorting will not work. It is a direct mail, has no list-id, and has no subject tag. The only clue will the the "to" addresses. Maybe it is threaded correctly and that would be another clue - but not if it goes to the incorrect "label". -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 04.12.20 13:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I forgot another issue.
Consider gmail - gmail webmail does offer filters, but not to folders: they use "labels" instead (and in my case, they work badly). I'm not sure how they translate to imap: my opensuse "label" has 85000 emails,
The labels just show up as folders if you accesss GMail by IMAP. I'm doing exactly that, and just filter most lists into separate folders, some less interesting into a single "opensuse-misc" folder.
and every time I tried Thunderbird was stuck for many minutes and I had to abort the try.
Well, I guess whenever you open a new folder with 85000 messages inside, most email programs will have some effort opening it, unless they are designed for exactly this use case. But you *could* just filter them into subfolders and this would make things much easier.
Another issue.
Suppose I use gmail to reply t a list. Someone replies to me, and as is often the case, they use "reply to all". So they do:
TO: factory@lists.opensuse.org CC: carlos@gmail
Now, the "carlos@gmail" mail arrives earlier, much less hops in every case. When the mail from the mail list arrives, it is consider duplicate and will be removed automatically by gmail servers.
Thus, the list sorting will not work. It is a direct mail, has no list-id, and has no subject tag. The only clue will the the "to" addresses. Maybe it is threaded correctly and that would be another clue - but not if it goes to the incorrect "label".
This still does in practice work well for me. For all the lists I have the following filter actions (translated from german): Matches: list(factory.lists.opensuse.org) Action: Skip inbox, apply label "l/oS-factory" And even though gmail does avoid duplicates, it still puts a cross-posted mail into multiple folders, and If I'm CC'ed then it also puts it into the Inbox IIRC. The only specialty GMail has here is, that if I read a mail e.g. in the oS-factory folder,then it will be marked read everywhere. But I like that. So especially with GMail, reading openSUSE lists sorted into different folders via IMAP is very easy and comfortable. I don't like reading them via the web frontend, but that's more an issue of personal taste. I actually wanted to suggest that the people stricken with abysmal ISP mail servers just open a gmail account, just for using it for openSUSE lists. The mails are public anyway and so not much privacy problems with using google services. But I did not want to open that discussion so have refrained to suggest that until now :-) Have fun, -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On 04/12/2020 13.43, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 04.12.20 13:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I forgot another issue.
Consider gmail - gmail webmail does offer filters, but not to folders: they use "labels" instead (and in my case, they work badly). I'm not sure how they translate to imap: my opensuse "label" has 85000 emails,
The labels just show up as folders if you accesss GMail by IMAP. I'm doing exactly that, and just filter most lists into separate folders, some less interesting into a single "opensuse-misc" folder.
and every time I tried Thunderbird was stuck for many minutes and I had to abort the try.
Well, I guess whenever you open a new folder with 85000 messages inside, most email programs will have some effort opening it, unless they are designed for exactly this use case. But you *could* just filter them into subfolders and this would make things much easier.
The subfolder has 85000 emails.
I actually wanted to suggest that the people stricken with abysmal ISP mail servers just open a gmail account, just for using it for openSUSE lists. The mails are public anyway and so not much privacy problems with using google services. But I did not want to open that discussion so have refrained to suggest that until now :-)
I opened a gmail account to try, years ago, and the issue of gmail deleting "copies", is a no-no and I aborted the migration. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
04.12.2020 15:03, Carlos E. R. пишет:
Consider gmail - gmail webmail does offer filters, but not to folders: they use "labels" instead (and in my case, they work badly). I'm not sure how they translate to imap:
Labels translate to IMAP folders. You can hide each label from being exposed via IMAP individually. You can also use them to organize E-Mail in "folders" in web interface as well. From practical PoV "labels" offer suitable replacement for "folders". If message gets multiple labels, it will be shown in each folder. It will /probably/ be downloaded just once (although this is likely client dependent). Using Thunderbird, message is marked as "read" in all folders when I read it in any and it is also deleted from all folders. So I assume TB downloads message just once.
my opensuse "label" has 85000 emails, and every time I tried Thunderbird was stuck for many minutes and I had to abort the try. The Inbox is aware of what I downloaded to my computer and has only a few thousands emails, but the "label" has every single one since beginning of times.
Yes, your mail client needs to cache existing content of mail folder once. Later it will only get updates. It has nothing to do with Gmail, your client would have the same issue with any other IMAP server with this number of messages.
Another issue.
Suppose I use gmail to reply t a list. Someone replies to me, and as is often the case, they use "reply to all". So they do:
TO: factory@lists.opensuse.org CC: carlos@gmail
Now, the "carlos@gmail" mail arrives earlier, much less hops in every case. When the mail from the mail list arrives, it is consider duplicate and will be removed automatically by gmail servers.
Thus, the list sorting will not work. It is a direct mail, has no list-id, and has no subject tag. The only clue will the the "to" addresses. Maybe it is threaded correctly and that would be another clue - but not if it goes to the incorrect "label".
When using web interface, gmail will display them as part of thread, both in destination "folder" and in Inbox. So you will see messages in Inbox when opening discussion in another folder. Of course threading in Gmail rather leaves a lot to desire. But this is going off-topic ...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <37c56374-92bb-e68c-6a98-7783d02c89f9@Telcontar.valinor> On Friday, 2020-12-04 at 15:51 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
04.12.2020 15:03, Carlos E. R. пишет:
...
my opensuse "label" has 85000 emails, and every time I tried Thunderbird was stuck for many minutes and I had to abort the try. The Inbox is aware of what I downloaded to my computer and has only a few thousands emails, but the "label" has every single one since beginning of times.
Yes, your mail client needs to cache existing content of mail folder once. Later it will only get updates. It has nothing to do with Gmail, your client would have the same issue with any other IMAP server with this number of messages.
Ah, I didn't know that. Maybe one day I will try. However, I also use Alpine (like for this post), and alpine caches nothing on disk. It caches (I think) the last 3 folders opened, in memory. mutt I suspect behaves similarly. ...
But this is going off-topic ...
I fear so. If anyone wishes to continue, just reply to "users@lists.opensuse.org" instead. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHIEARECADIWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX8t/2RQccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQGdteC5lcwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H1V/TAJ0TFcg9H57+W5iaLXWYn5r9Yva+OACg lyC+jV0N0lXPD39l1ANjyQ+P+EU= =CDi3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@gmx.es> [12-05-20 07:42]:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Content-ID: <37c56374-92bb-e68c-6a98-7783d02c89f9@Telcontar.valinor>
On Friday, 2020-12-04 at 15:51 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
04.12.2020 15:03, Carlos E. R. пишет:
...
my opensuse "label" has 85000 emails, and every time I tried Thunderbird was stuck for many minutes and I had to abort the try. The Inbox is aware of what I downloaded to my computer and has only a few thousands emails, but the "label" has every single one since beginning of times.
Yes, your mail client needs to cache existing content of mail folder once. Later it will only get updates. It has nothing to do with Gmail, your client would have the same issue with any other IMAP server with this number of messages.
Ah, I didn't know that. Maybe one day I will try. However, I also use Alpine (like for this post), and alpine caches nothing on disk. It caches (I think) the last 3 folders opened, in memory.
mutt I suspect behaves similarly.
mutt does provide header caching.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2020-12-05 at 09:42 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-05-20 07:42]:
On Friday, 2020-12-04 at 15:51 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
04.12.2020 15:03, Carlos E. R. пишет:
...
Ah, I didn't know that. Maybe one day I will try. However, I also use Alpine (like for this post), and alpine caches nothing on disk. It caches (I think) the last 3 folders opened, in memory.
mutt I suspect behaves similarly.
mutt does provide header caching.
Ah, of course, Alpine only caches the headers (I don't know if all). But in RAM, so the cache dies on existing the program. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHIEARECADIWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX8uffRQccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQGdteC5lcwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H1Q+KAJ0Vn+10Ejdr4ZX7seLcK5HGzCxvfACf WljVAOZASHjYMzzolB8DJpdGKzQ= =USj+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 05.12.20 15:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ah, of course, Alpine only caches the headers (I don't know if all). But in RAM, so the cache dies on existing the program.
And what alpine does (or at last did 15 years ago when it was still pine and I last used it...) is it downloads only the headers it really needs to show you your selection. Example: your terminal is 80x25, (al)pine will show you 20 lines of headers of your inbox. So it downloads only these 20 headers. You hit "page down" and it will download the next 20 headers. This is a huge advantage if you are opening a mailbox with 100k mails. Most other mail clients will just see "there are 100k mails which I did not yet see, let's download all the headers". I think that's what at least mutt did 15 years ago. But the IMAP implementation of mutt was not very good anyway. Back then. No idea how it is now. Depending on the implementation (single / multithreaded) this can of course block the UI and additionally, even a huge provider like gmail will have some "fun" collecting and delivering the 100k headers and probably the servers will struggle quite a bit to satisfy this request. (al)pine does this in a exceptionally good way. No wonder, as it was built by the person who created the (horrible, IMHO) IMAP standard. OTOH, once thunderbird has built the initial cache, I really don't care too much about efficiency of the mail polling but rahter enjoy its other features which, *for me* make it more desirable to use than (al)pine. Sorry for not posting to users@, but I'm not subscribed there ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On Saturday 2020-12-05 17:27, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 05.12.20 15:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ah, of course, Alpine only caches the headers (I don't know if all). But in RAM, so the cache dies on existing the program.
And what alpine does [..] is it downloads only the headers it really needs to show you your selection. [...] This is a huge advantage if you are opening a mailbox with 100k mails.
But face it: headers alone are quite worthless, aggraviated by a handful of people completely unable to write a reasonable Subject: line. The bonus I see in text-based MUAs is that you can ssh into a machine and get the text rendition. If all you need (or want) to see is the first page of the mail, that's just some 2KB worth of transmission - given the email bloat of the 21st century, that can be quite a godsend.
On 05/12/2020 17.27, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 05.12.20 15:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ah, of course, Alpine only caches the headers (I don't know if all). But in RAM, so the cache dies on existing the program.
And what alpine does (or at last did 15 years ago when it was still pine and I last used it...) is it downloads only the headers it really needs to show you your selection.
Example: your terminal is 80x25, (al)pine will show you 20 lines of headers of your inbox.
So it downloads only these 20 headers. You hit "page down" and it will download the next 20 headers.
This is a huge advantage if you are opening a mailbox with 100k mails.
Correct. However, if you request "threaded sorting" then it has to download many more, possibly all to find the parent of each thread. You can notice it delays for a time, even a minute.
Most other mail clients will just see "there are 100k mails which I did not yet see, let's download all the headers". I think that's what at least mutt did 15 years ago. But the IMAP implementation of mutt was not very good anyway. Back then. No idea how it is now. Depending on the implementation (single / multithreaded) this can of course block the UI and additionally, even a huge provider like gmail will have some "fun" collecting and delivering the 100k headers and probably the servers will struggle quite a bit to satisfy this request.
Well, Thunderbird has to ask the same thing now and then, but the difference is that they are stored on disk and the next time it can retrieve from disk, then fetch the new ones. And it keeps indexes of every folder. There is a caveat: imap can save flags, tags, marks, answer status, whatever, which you can create in one machine and see on another. I don't remember if all of them, but at list the "star" (and alpine sets and sees the same star). Huh, I can see in Alpine, Flags, flag details, the name of the flags I created in Thunderbird. So Thunderbird, when opening the same folder another day, has to find and download them and update the local index.
(al)pine does this in a exceptionally good way. No wonder, as it was built by the person who created the (horrible, IMHO) IMAP standard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin Now it is maintained by Eduardo Chappa, who previously maintained a set of patches to Pine.
OTOH, once thunderbird has built the initial cache, I really don't care too much about efficiency of the mail polling but rahter enjoy its other features which, *for me* make it more desirable to use than (al)pine.
Yes, certainly, Thunderbird has advantages. Alpine has an important one, though: it is faster at operation such as moving/copying thousand of messages, or complex selection filters. Of course, when you have to ssh to a machine to see mail there, Thunderbird is out :-)
Sorry for not posting to users@, but I'm not subscribed there ;-)
Happens. :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-05-20 15:00]: [much trimmed]
Of course, when you have to ssh to a machine to see mail there, Thunderbird is out :-)
it is not a problem if you have X-forwarding and run an instance of thunderbird on the remote machine. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2020-12-05 at 20:14 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-05-20 15:00]: [much trimmed]
Of course, when you have to ssh to a machine to see mail there, Thunderbird is out :-)
it is not a problem if you have X-forwarding and run an instance of thunderbird on the remote machine.
That alters the mail flow, and needs processing mail at the other machine. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX8wxfBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV/0IAnRMG31dgQefurhHUGplu u8sA8JVjAJ4rhcr5GEuN+8SYiW2kvnawhaaMYw== =bR4N -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-05-20 20:20]:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Saturday, 2020-12-05 at 20:14 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-05-20 15:00]: [much trimmed]
Of course, when you have to ssh to a machine to see mail there, Thunderbird is out :-)
it is not a problem if you have X-forwarding and run an instance of thunderbird on the remote machine.
That alters the mail flow, and needs processing mail at the other machine.
sorry, that makes no sense to me you ssh to a machine to see the mail there you access the "mail there" with a thunderbird instance "there" that alters mail flow why wouldn't you process the mail where it is? I run tmux on a server containing mail keep a window open with a mutt instance on the server accessing that mail. And I can access it from *anywhere* the mail is processed where it is, on the server, when it is received. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On 06/12/2020 02.27, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-05-20 20:20]:
On Saturday, 2020-12-05 at 20:14 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-05-20 15:00]: [much trimmed]
Of course, when you have to ssh to a machine to see mail there, Thunderbird is out :-)
it is not a problem if you have X-forwarding and run an instance of thunderbird on the remote machine.
That alters the mail flow, and needs processing mail at the other machine.
sorry, that makes no sense to me
you ssh to a machine to see the mail there you access the "mail there" with a thunderbird instance "there" that alters mail flow
No. You told me to use forwarding, which purpose is to route mail from remote machine to local machine, and then run Thunderbird on local machine - as it is not possible to run Thunderbird on remote machine via ssh, terrible idea. Very slow. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-05-20 22:45]:
On 06/12/2020 02.27, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-05-20 20:20]:
On Saturday, 2020-12-05 at 20:14 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-05-20 15:00]: [much trimmed]
Of course, when you have to ssh to a machine to see mail there, Thunderbird is out :-)
it is not a problem if you have X-forwarding and run an instance of thunderbird on the remote machine.
That alters the mail flow, and needs processing mail at the other machine.
sorry, that makes no sense to me
you ssh to a machine to see the mail there you access the "mail there" with a thunderbird instance "there" that alters mail flow
No.
You told me to use forwarding, which purpose is to route mail from remote machine to local machine, and then run Thunderbird on local machine - as it is not possible to run Thunderbird on remote machine via ssh, terrible idea. Very slow.
no, do not run Tb on "local" machine or you will need to provide the mail directory over sshfs/nfs/... then run alpine and you do not need X-forwarding -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On Sonntag, 6. Dezember 2020 04:56:16 CET Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-05-20 22:45]:
[...] Can we *please* move this mail configuration/support thread elsewhere. I has become completely off-topic here. Regards, Stefan -- Stefan Brüns / Bergstraße 21 / 52062 Aachen home: +49 241 53809034 mobile: +49 151 50412019
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <95d19fef-b23e-999b-da19-5f381223db1@Telcontar.valinor> On Sunday, 2020-12-06 at 13:22 +0100, Stefan Brüns wrote:
On Sonntag, 6. Dezember 2020 04:56:16 CET Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-05-20 22:45]:
[...]
Can we *please* move this mail configuration/support thread elsewhere. I has become completely off-topic here.
I agree. Said so long ago. For me there is no need to continue the matter. If anyone wishes to continue, please reply on "users@lists.opensuse.org". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX8zQqRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVZykAoIFomQeEi8NFj4dGg3FY UR6tCefeAJwN28E/85NhB2y/QNIRo0pXSrjGTg== =eNmV -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 06.12.20 04:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No.
You told me to use forwarding, which purpose is to route mail from remote machine to local machine, and then run Thunderbird on local machine
No. He told you to use X-forwarding and run TB on the remote machine.
- as it is not possible to run Thunderbird on remote machine via ssh, terrible idea. Very slow.
Yes. All mozilla products (or is it all gtk software? Did not try...) do not work very well with remote X displays since quite some time. But the possibility exists ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead: List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org> -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 03/12/2020 09.23, Per Jessen wrote:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big ·························**************** part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead:
List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org>
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 09.23, Per Jessen wrote:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big ·························****************
I read it to mean that mails _now_ ended up in one big folder, due to the lack of LISTNAME in the Subject line. Maybe it's just a brain block, I simply cannot imagine why it would be useful to have everything in one folder. Dan has already explained it, no real need to elaborate - removing the LISTNAME subject prefix was necessary to avoid a potentially massive upheaval due to SUSE's DMARC policy. As the information is still available, nobody imagined any major problems in omitting the LISTNAME subject prefix. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 03/12/2020 13.08, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 09.23, Per Jessen wrote:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big ·························****************
I read it to mean that mails _now_ ended up in one big folder, due to the lack of LISTNAME in the Subject line.
Always, not now.
Maybe it's just a brain block, I simply cannot imagine why it would be useful to have everything in one folder.
Because it is the ISP Inbox. It affects people using an IMAP client to read mail directly at our ISP, or those using webmail. We simply can not setup several folders. We don't even have filtering/sorting facilities provided. And if we had, then that would cause a new problem when archiving locally, having to download from dozen of folders, meaning dozens of separate download operations (in fetchmail, for instance, you have to list every folder).
Dan has already explained it, no real need to elaborate - removing the LISTNAME subject prefix was necessary to avoid a potentially massive upheaval due to SUSE's DMARC policy. As the information is still available, nobody imagined any major problems in omitting the LISTNAME subject prefix.
As you can see from others, there is a major problem for us. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 13.08, Per Jessen wrote:
Maybe it's just a brain block, I simply cannot imagine why it would be useful to have everything in one folder.
Because it is the ISP Inbox. It affects people using an IMAP client to read mail directly at our ISP, or those using webmail. We simply can not setup several folders.
This is going off-topic, but if you are using IMAP and several folders are not supported or sieve is not supported, it really only affects you and your ISP, it is not the general case. Anyway, the topic doesn't really belong here on this list. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.3°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 03/12/2020 13.58, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 13.08, Per Jessen wrote:
Maybe it's just a brain block, I simply cannot imagine why it would be useful to have everything in one folder.
Because it is the ISP Inbox. It affects people using an IMAP client to read mail directly at our ISP, or those using webmail. We simply can not setup several folders.
This is going off-topic, but if you are using IMAP and several folders are not supported or sieve is not supported, it really only affects you and your ISP, it is not the general case.
Not only me, there are more people affected.
Anyway, the topic doesn't really belong here on this list.
Ok. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
Carlos E. R. composed on 2020-12-03 11:56 (UTC+0100):
Per Jessen wrote:
ub22 wrote:
"Carlos E.R." composed:
Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big
·························****************
part of the information is missing. +++
I have a hard enough time finding what I'm looking for in general. I can't imagine myself finding what I'm looking for anything but more difficult after creating more cubby holes to contain individual lists (of which there are too many). All my mail folders, except for archives by year, are first level. Loss of subject tags is entropy. They need not disappear entirely. Those of us composing can create them manually. -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Am Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2020, 09:23:40 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead:
List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org>
From my defaultsieve.script:
# opensuse if header :contains "List-Id" "announce.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.announce"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "autoinstall.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.autoinstall"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "buildservice.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.buildservice"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "factory.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.factory"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "gnome.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.gnome"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "kde.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.kde"; stop; } if header :contains "List-ID" [ "openSUSE/obs-service-source_validator", "openSUSE/obs-service-tar_scm" ] { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.obs-service"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "kernel.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.kernel"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "packaging.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.packaging"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "programming.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.programming"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "project.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.project"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "security.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.security"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "support.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.support"; stop; } if header :contains "List-Id" "xorg.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.xorg"; stop; } # keep this last (catch all) if header :contains "List-Id" "lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.opensuse"; stop; } Cheers, Pete
On 03/12/2020 12.05, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2020, 09:23:40 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big
······························**************
part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead:
List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org>
From my defaultsieve.script:
# opensuse
What don't you understand about "one folder"? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 03/12/2020 12.10, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 12.05, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2020, 09:23:40 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big
······························**************
part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead:
List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org>
From my defaultsieve.script:
# opensuse
What don't you understand about "one folder"?
Sorry for the harsh reply. People after people insisting on sorting by list-id, which is impossible in a single folder setup at the ISP, is driving me nuts. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
On Thu 03 Dec 2020 02:33:24 PM CST, Carlos E. R. wrote: <snip>
People after people insisting on sorting by list-id, which is impossible in a single folder setup at the ISP, is driving me nuts.
Hi Switch to nntp and gmane? If there is a list missing it's easy to request adding/updating (I've done a few for the change to mailman)? -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) Tumbleweed 20201201 | GNOME Shell 3.38.1 | 5.9.11-1-default Intel DQ77MK MB | Xeon E3-1245 V2 X8 @ 3.40 GHz | Intel/Nvidia up 1:48, 2 users, load average: 0.28, 0.51, 0.47
Am Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2020, 14:33:24 CET schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 03/12/2020 12.10, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 03/12/2020 12.05, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2020, 09:23:40 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big
······························**************
part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead:
List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org>
From my defaultsieve.script: # opensuse
What don't you understand about "one folder"?
Sorry for the harsh reply.
Apology accepted ;-)
People after people insisting on sorting by list-id, which is impossible in a single folder setup at the ISP, is driving me nuts.
You could ask the mailman maintainer to consider adding a prefix again: https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/ docs/subject-munging.html Cheers, Pete
On 03/12/2020 15.56, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2020, 14:33:24 CET schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 03/12/2020 12.10, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You could ask the mailman maintainer to consider adding a prefix again: https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/ docs/subject-munging.html
It is an intentional configuration change here, not upstream. The admins are aware of the problem. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2020, 09:23:40 CET schrieb Per Jessen:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead:
List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org>
From my defaultsieve.script:
# opensuse
if header :contains "List-Id" "announce.lists.opensuse.org" { fileinto "INBOX.listen.opensuse.announce"; stop; }
Nice useful example, looks very similar to my own :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.0°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
Per Jessen wrote:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead:
List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org>
The problem is not the filtering itself. I am also one of those that filters *all* opensuse related mails into one single folder. Within that folder, the [] tags were a great way to see from which list they came, to help me judge whether it's worth opening and reading the mail. This valuable info is gone now, and filtering each list into its own folder IMO is a very inferior replacement of the previous state :(
Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 23:07 Uhr; Von: "Carlos E. R." ... Normally I look at the [subject tag] and the rest of the subject to decide if I'm interested enough to open the post
Same at my side. Especially due to the fact, that several Mailing lists are filtered in only one Folder! But without the tag - a big part of the information is missing.
The information is still present, just elsewhere. For directing mail into a folder, use the List-ID header instead:
List-Id: Discussions about the development of the openSUSE distributions <factory.lists.opensuse.org>
The problem is not the filtering itself. I am also one of those that filters *all* opensuse related mails into one single folder.
Wow. For me, that would make a huge mess, impossible to wade through. Today since midnight, I have 171 (mostly about openSUSE infra) plus 99 from lists only.
Within that folder, the [] tags were a great way to see from which list they came, to help me [judge whether it's worth opening and reading the mail. This valuable info is gone now, and filtering each list into its own folder IMO is a very inferior replacement of the previous state :(
The latter I simply don't understand, but the alternative solutions were no better, I can assure you. Everyone involved would have preferred keeping both the LISTNAME prefix and the helpful footers. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.4°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 03/12/2020 14.06, Per Jessen wrote:
Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
ub22@gmx.net wrote:
The problem is not the filtering itself. I am also one of those that filters *all* opensuse related mails into one single folder.
Wow. For me, that would make a huge mess, impossible to wade through. Today since midnight, I have 171 (mostly about openSUSE infra) plus 99 from lists only.
171 is too much, but with the list tag it is possible.
Within that folder, the [] tags were a great way to see from which list they came, to help me [judge whether it's worth opening and reading the mail. This valuable info is gone now, and filtering each list into its own folder IMO is a very inferior replacement of the previous state :(
The latter I simply don't understand, but the alternative solutions were no better, I can assure you. Everyone involved would have preferred keeping both the LISTNAME prefix and the helpful footers.
There is the alternative of sending "from" the list instead and keeping both subject tag and footer. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
Per Jessen wrote:
Peter Suetterlin wrote:
The problem is not the filtering itself. I am also one of those that filters *all* opensuse related mails into one single folder.
Wow. For me, that would make a huge mess, impossible to wade through. Today since midnight, I have 171 (mostly about openSUSE infra) plus 99 from lists only.
Well, first I only read a few of the OS lists, as I am only a user. And of course threading/collapse is on, so the listing is quite manageable, even if I don't read it for a few days...
This valuable info is gone now, and filtering each list into its own folder IMO is a very inferior replacement of the previous state :(
The latter I simply don't understand, but the alternative solutions were no better, I can assure you. Everyone involved would have preferred keeping both the LISTNAME prefix and the helpful footers.
Good to know. I have no strong opinon about the tags (other than that they were really helpful). For sure I won't stop reading here because they're gone. If you (all that really work on/with the lists here) agreed on the best compromise, it definitely will suffice for me :D
Peter Suetterlin schrieb:
The problem is not the filtering itself. I am also one of those that filters *all* opensuse related mails into one single folder. Within that folder, the [] tags were a great way to see from which list they came, to help me judge whether it's worth opening and reading the mail.
Same here. As someone only very casually involved with the project and following a few other projects as well, I filter everything from one project to a folder for that project, same for openSUSE. That said, as nice as it was to know what list which message came from, it may not matter that much in my case as most messages in this folder are from this factory list anyhow, and it may not matter that much if it comes from there or another one as long as I reply to or send new messages to the correct one. At least bugs still have a clearly identifiable prefix. Other than that, I'll just regard everything that gets filtered in this folders because it includes of someone with a *suse domain to be of low-priority read-whenever-you-find time value, i.e. what I usually put messages from this list in, mentally. Just to whoever is communicating with a *suse domain in their email, if you send direct emails to me (which practically never happens anyhow), you will mentally be treated like a mailing list message and it can take days to weeks until I react. Cheers, KaiRo
On 03/12/2020 13.06, Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Within that folder, the [] tags were a great way to see from which list they came
The best substitute I found so far in Thunderbird is to right-click on the mail list header and select "Recipient" for display. Works, because the "To" address contains the ML.
On 09/12/2020 04.06, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:
On 03/12/2020 13.06, Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Within that folder, the [] tags were a great way to see from which list they came
The best substitute I found so far in Thunderbird is to right-click on the mail list header and select "Recipient" for display.
Works, because the "To" address contains the ML.
I select both "From" and "recipient", and remove the default "correspondents". -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
participants (24)
-
Andrei Borzenkov -
Arjen de Korte -
Ben Greiner -
Benjamin Greiner -
Bernhard M. Wiedemann -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Dan Čermák -
Felix Miata -
Hans-Peter Jansen -
Jan Engelhardt -
L A Walsh -
Malcolm -
Michael Ströder -
Michal Suchánek -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Peter Simons -
Peter Suetterlin -
Philippe Conde -
Robert Kaiser -
Stefan Brüns -
Stefan Seyfried -
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