Op dinsdag 10 april 2018 13:13:24 CEST schreef Stephan Kulow:

On 04/10/2018 01:04 PM, Michal Kubecek wrote:

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On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 12:16 Richard Brown wrote:

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I would like to propose that the installation options KDE and GNOME therefore always have NetworkManager by default

Server & Transactional will always have wicked by default

I don't see much benefit of NetworkManager on a typical desktop machine. IIUC the desire for NetworkManager is mainly for easier management of wi-fi connections. How about using NetworkManager by default if there is a wi-fi device and wicked if not?

Well, that leaves still an unpleasant experience to those that add hotplug devices.

I'd claim that users don't care so much what makes their LAN work as long as it works. And IMO wicked isn't any easier to debug if it doesn't work than NM is. So if it simplifies our desktops, I'm all for simplifying by 'roles' (aka desktops).

Greetings, Stephan +1 from me.

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 13:46 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2018-04-10 13:04, Michal Kubecek wrote:

...

On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 12:16 Richard Brown wrote:

...

I would like to propose that the installation options KDE and GNOME therefore always have NetworkManager by default

Server & Transactional will always have wicked by default

I don't see much benefit of NetworkManager on a typical desktop machine. IIUC the desire for NetworkManager is mainly for easier management of wi-fi connections. How about using NetworkManager by default if there is a wi-fi device and wicked if not?

My home server has both ethernet and WiFi hardware.

There will always be exceptions, sure, but I wanted to minimize the damage. But it seems inevitable so let's just add another entry to my "distribution defaults to override on all new installations" list. On the plus side, ending up with NetworkManager was always a nasty surprise when I installed openSUSE on a notebook; if it's going to be default everywhere, I'll be less likely to forget. :-) Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/10/2018 05:55 AM, Mike Galbraith wrote:

On Tue, 2018-04-10 at 14:03 +0200, Michal Kubecek wrote:

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On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 13:46 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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My home server has both ethernet and WiFi hardware.

There will always be exceptions, sure, but I wanted to minimize the damage. But it seems inevitable so let's just add another entry to my "distribution defaults to override on all new installations" list.

Hm. Three of my four boxen are "exceptions", the :) exception being my HP lappy (spectre 360), which has only wi-fi.

Starting to look like the "exceptions" are more common than the non-"exceptions". :-D *ALL* of my machines are running ethernet NIC and WiFi. Quite often, both are pressed into use at the same time to access two separate LANs on separate routers at the same time for maintenance or administrative purposes. They also need to be switched off and on at will. Network Manager makes the best default for me, for my clients, and for anyone else I am volunteering support for. I like Richard's proposal as a step in the right direction. -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 06:12:56 +0200 Mike Galbraith wrote:

On Tue, 2018-04-10 at 17:50 -0700, Fraser_Bell wrote:

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Network Manager makes the best default for me, for my clients, and for anyone else I am volunteering support for.

I'm agnostic: both are annoying, just in different ways :)

Cannot agree more. There is some hope that putting effort into improving upstream solution which already exists and is competitive with SUSE solution will provide better product in the long term through synergy with other contributors. It may not necessarily work out that way, though. Thanks Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Fraser_Bell wrote:

On 04/10/2018 05:55 AM, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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On Tue, 2018-04-10 at 14:03 +0200, Michal Kubecek wrote:

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On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 13:46 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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My home server has both ethernet and WiFi hardware.

There will always be exceptions, sure, but I wanted to minimize the damage. But it seems inevitable so let's just add another entry to my "distribution defaults to override on all new installations" list.

Hm. Three of my four boxen are "exceptions", the :) exception being my HP lappy (spectre 360), which has only wi-fi.

Starting to look like the "exceptions" are more common than the non-"exceptions". :-D

*ALL* of my machines are running ethernet NIC and WiFi.

Here (office landscape), only laptops have wifi. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.3°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le mardi 10 avril 2018 à 13:04 +0200, Michal Kubecek a écrit :

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On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 12:16 Richard Brown wrote:

...

I would like to propose that the installation options KDE and GNOME therefore always have NetworkManager by default

Server & Transactional will always have wicked by default

I don't see much benefit of NetworkManager on a typical desktop machine.

Proper integration in the desktop of VPN start / stop.

Perhaps not of great use to the average desktop user, but yes. How about NFS-mounted shares - last I looked (42.3), it took some work to get those integrated. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.1°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/04/18 09:39, Michal Suchánek wrote:

On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 18:25:59 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

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Frederic Crozat wrote:

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Le mardi 10 avril 2018 à 13:04 +0200, Michal Kubecek a écrit :

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On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 12:16 Richard Brown wrote:

...

I would like to propose that the installation options KDE and GNOME therefore always have NetworkManager by default

Server & Transactional will always have wicked by default

I don't see much benefit of NetworkManager on a typical desktop machine.

Proper integration in the desktop of VPN start / stop.

Perhaps not of great use to the average desktop user, but yes. How about NFS-mounted shares - last I looked (42.3), it took some work to get those integrated.

Net mounted filesystems don't work with systemd and we are using systemd so you are out of luck here. Get an Evergreen distro for that.

Dear Michal We're using systemd, NFS mounted shares work quite well. Best regards Per Jessen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 13 April 2018 at 10:51, Michal Suchánek wrote:

Dear Per,

I am using iSCSI root and it does not work with systemd.

Dear Michal, Booting from an iSCSI hosted root filesystem is supported in SLE 12, which of course uses systemd. The wicked enablement for that was implemented in 2014 for SLE 12 GA - https://github.com/openSUSE/wicked/issues/32 It was tested by yours truly. I remember beta customers testing it also. In both cases systemd certainly didn't get in the way. I'd imagine things still work similarly in Leap 42.x and hopefully Tumbleweed & Leap 15 also. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Michal Suchánek [04-13-18 08:14]:

On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:36:56 +0200 Richard Brown wrote:

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On 13 April 2018 at 10:51, Michal Suchánek wrote:

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Dear Per,

I am using iSCSI root and it does not work with systemd.

Dear Michal,

Booting from an iSCSI hosted root filesystem is supported in SLE 12, which of course uses systemd.

The wicked enablement for that was implemented in 2014 for SLE 12 GA - https://github.com/openSUSE/wicked/issues/32

Indeed, so wicked refuses to shut down the interface even if requested to do so. So the systemd issue is not solved but rather papered over in wicked.

ifdown wlan0 certainly shuts down the interface and is part of wicked rpm -qf `which ifdown` wicked-service-0.6.47-1.1.x86_64

That's the distro benefit for you that people were asking about.

SUSE supports shutting down your system (so long as you use wicked), Debian supports setting up your keyboard layout, Ubuntu comes with decent installer, Arch comes with documentation, etc.

Thanks

Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Michal Suchánek [01-01-70 12:34]:

On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 08:18:32 -0400 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Michal Suchánek [04-13-18 08:14]:

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On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:36:56 +0200 Richard Brown wrote:

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On 13 April 2018 at 10:51, Michal Suchánek wrote:

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Dear Per,

I am using iSCSI root and it does not work with systemd.

Dear Michal,

Booting from an iSCSI hosted root filesystem is supported in SLE 12, which of course uses systemd.

The wicked enablement for that was implemented in 2014 for SLE 12 GA - https://github.com/openSUSE/wicked/issues/32

Indeed, so wicked refuses to shut down the interface even if requested to do so. So the systemd issue is not solved but rather papered over in wicked.

ifdown wlan0 certainly shuts down the interface and is part of wicked rpm -qf `which ifdown` wicked-service-0.6.47-1.1.x86_64

You haven't read the PR description, have you?

It quite clearly says it adds a flag that prevents shutting down the interface because it is used for your root filesystem.

Of course, it's a gross hack.

hack or not, I can give myself perms to use ifdown to disconnect my internet connection. so wicked does not refuse to shut down the interface but does require elevation. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Peter Suetterlin composed on 2018-04-10 12:38 (UTC+0100):

My personal view is that on Desktops NM is not usefull at all

+1 -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Peter Suetterlin [04-10-18 07:39]:

My personal view is that on Desktops NM is not usefull at all, and I'd rate the GNOME behavior a BUG.

+1 for *any* dm -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/10/2018 02:33 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

I perfer a choice on install.

my experience with nm has been less than desirable, sometimes works, usually does not. wicked just works.

You're free to block NM and pick wicked, but what what other 'choice' you envision? We're talking defaults here. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 10.04.2018 um 15:10 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

* Stephan Kulow [04-10-18 08:54]:

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On 04/10/2018 02:33 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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I perfer a choice on install.

my experience with nm has been less than desirable, sometimes works, usually does not. wicked just works.

You're free to block NM and pick wicked, but what what other 'choice' you envision? We're talking defaults here. to choose which of the two just as you get a choice of desktop manager

+1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10 April 2018 at 15:16, Peter Suetterlin wrote:

Stephan Kulow wrote:

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On 04/10/2018 02:33 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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I perfer a choice on install.

my experience with nm has been less than desirable, sometimes works, usually does not. wicked just works.

You're free to block NM and pick wicked, but what what other 'choice' you envision? We're talking defaults here.

The main issue with defaults is how easy it is to change things.

I'd definitely also prefer a simple radio button choice at install time over the option to later change it with YaST.

If people want that, I'm sure people are welcome to contribute that to the YaST team. I'm not interested enough to do it. As Josef has already pointed out, my proposal to tie NM to specific roles is feasible today based on the code available in YaST already If people will only accept changing the status quo with a specific UI element toggle, then in my eyes this idea is dead, at least as far as my contributions to the idea and Leap 15 are concerned (I would be surprised if it would be feasible to add something that invasive at this time) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10 April 2018 at 15:39, Peter Suetterlin wrote:

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at least as far as my contributions to the idea and Leap 15 are concerned (I would be surprised if it would be feasible to add something that invasive at this time)

I agree on that, if it should still go to 15, that would be the only way. But then it has something of a 'hot fix', and those have the tendency to never get re-done 'properly'. And I think for good user experience an early choice is important, too. Are really enterprise desktops supposed to use NM? Or changed manually after install?

SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop uses NetworkManager by default, in all installations, regardless of laptop or otherwise. So, yes, they're supposed to use NM

(*) My other point mentioned in another reply, the availability of net connection without someone being logged in, *is* such a showstopper though.

The default network manager interfaces connect just fine without a user being logged in. In all my tests, NetworkManager already does this just fine, and already has for quite some time (at least every Leap release to date). Obviously if this doesn't work it would be a bug that needs to be addressed, but I don't think we should assess the feasibility of features we could have today on the possibility of bugs which do not seem to have today. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2018-04-10 at 19:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Tuesday, 2018-04-10 at 15:45 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:

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On 10 April 2018 at 15:39, Peter Suetterlin <> wrote:

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...

(*) My other point mentioned in another reply, the availability of net connection without someone being logged in, *is* such a showstopper though.

The default network manager interfaces connect just fine without a user being logged in. In all my tests, NetworkManager already does this just fine, and already has for quite some time (at least every Leap release to date). Obviously if this doesn't work it would be a bug that needs to be addressed, but I don't think we should assess the feasibility of features we could have today on the possibility of bugs which do not seem to have today.

Sorry, not true.

I just went to my laptop to do the test in 15.0: I logged out of my session in XFCE, went to the console, used "if addr" and the wlan had lost the IP. I can not post the command output, no network there now.

I know how to make it work (perhaps), but then, that is not the default config.

Later I thought to test the cable, so I connected it without login, and it worked. Why this connection works by default and not the other, I don't know; maybe it is related to needing a password. Then there is the setting "use this connection by other users" or similar wording, which is a manual action that I haven't done in that setup. It then requires the root password to configure. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlrN0mAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V/zgCeP+8vJfGMRzGQnCG0/i1S+kzn nrIAn3nvUHsiVWLFFKAsjcsNR0MXYeJh =uqYe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. [11.04.2018 11:16]:

On Tuesday, 2018-04-10 at 19:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Tuesday, 2018-04-10 at 15:45 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:

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On 10 April 2018 at 15:39, Peter Suetterlin <> wrote:

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...

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(*) My other point mentioned in another reply, the availability of net connection without someone being logged in, *is* such a showstopper though.

The default network manager interfaces connect just fine without a user being logged in. In all my tests, NetworkManager already does this just fine, and already has for quite some time (at least every Leap release to date). Obviously if this doesn't work it would be a bug that needs to be addressed, but I don't think we should assess the feasibility of features we could have today on the possibility of bugs which do not seem to have today.

...

Sorry, not true.

...

I just went to my laptop to do the test in 15.0: I logged out of my session in XFCE, went to the console, used "if addr" and the wlan had lost the IP. I can not post the command output, no network there now.

...

I know how to make it work (perhaps), but then, that is not the default config.

Later I thought to test the cable, so I connected it without login, and it worked. Why this connection works by default and not the other, I don't know; maybe it is related to needing a password.

Then there is the setting "use this connection by other users" or similar wording, which is a manual action that I haven't done in that setup. It then requires the root password to configure.

Hm. What if I have a disfunctional desktop on the host and can login via console only? Last time I had to do this (as root), I had no network connection. And there was no "cable connect" available at this location, only WLAN. This was nearly a year ago, and I could not figure out how to activate WLAN from command line with NM. Did the software change in that respect? Of course, without a network connection it is hard to use a search engine in WWW ;) Werner --

Ancor Gonzalez Sosa [11.04.2018 13:25]:

On 04/11/2018 01:19 PM, Werner Flamme wrote:

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Hm. What if I have a disfunctional desktop on the host and can login via console only? Last time I had to do this (as root), I had no network connection. And there was no "cable connect" available at this location, only WLAN.

This was nearly a year ago, and I could not figure out how to activate WLAN from command line with NM. Did the software change in that respect?

nmtui is my main NM client. It's more agile and responsive that any applet included in the desktops... and it works in good old console. Of course, it doesn't help if nmtui is not installed and you have to configure the network to install it. ;-)

That's what I found out when googling with my cellphone: a cli exists (I guess I found nmcli), but was not installed on my host. And no second host available and of course no USB stick (or adaptor from mini to standard SD)... One gets frustrated here ;) Werner --

Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018, 23:00:43 schrieb Simon Lees:

Well making sure nmtui is installed when network manager is isn't exactly a big hard change and also makes sense to me.

From my Leap 42.3 system: $ rpm -qf /usr/bin/nmtui NetworkManager-1.0.12-6.5.x86_64

So it should actually be installed by default (unless that changed in Tumbleweed, which I don't think) ;-) Back on topic: Both wicked and NetworkManager work fine here, and both do establish the connections on boot. NetworkManager does default to "user connection" for WiFi (which also means that it will only connect when the user logs in), true, but IIRC that's because of complaints having to supply the root password for setting up the connection. (not different to having to setup the connection via YaST) Configuring the connection to "Allow all users to connect" and storing the connection key system-wide "fixes" that though, as already mentioned. I do sense that some users get confused about not having a network management icon by default at all (as is the case in Plasma) or the an error by that icon (as seems to be the case in GNOME e.g.). So probably +0.5 to the proposal from my side. Kind Regards, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/04/18 20:57, Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le mercredi 11 avril 2018 à 11:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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On Tuesday, 2018-04-10 at 19:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Tuesday, 2018-04-10 at 15:45 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 10 April 2018 at 15:39, Peter Suetterlin <> wrote:

...

...

(*) My other point mentioned in another reply, the availability of net connection without someone being logged in, *is* such a showstopper though.

The default network manager interfaces connect just fine without a user being logged in. In all my tests, NetworkManager already does this just fine, and already has for quite some time (at least every Leap release to date). Obviously if this doesn't work it would be a bug that needs to be addressed, but I don't think we should assess the feasibility of features we could have today on the possibility of bugs which do not seem to have today.

Sorry, not true.

I just went to my laptop to do the test in 15.0: I logged out of my session in XFCE, went to the console, used "if addr" and the wlan had lost the IP. I can not post the command output, no network there now.

I know how to make it work (perhaps), but then, that is not the default config.

Later I thought to test the cable, so I connected it without login, and it worked. Why this connection works by default and not the other, I don't know; maybe it is related to needing a password.

Then there is the setting "use this connection by other users" or similar wording, which is a manual action that I haven't done in that setup. It then requires the root password to configure.

And it is expected. Wifi credentials are "personal" by default (they might contain data you don't want to be visible by everybody on the system) and not shared unencryted in /etc/NetworkManager.

If you want to get the wifi credentials available system-wide, you have to do a conscious decision.

I have a polkit file that allows any user in the "network" group to modify the system network settings, which is my way around this issue if others find it useful I don't see why it couldn't go into its own small package. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op woensdag 11 april 2018 15:33:25 CEST schreef Simon Lees:

I have a polkit file that allows any user in the "network" group to modify the system network settings, which is my way around this issue if others find it useful I don't see why it couldn't go into its own small package.

+1 -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/04/18 00:17, Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le mercredi 11 avril 2018 à 23:03 +0930, Simon Lees a écrit :

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On 11/04/18 20:57, Frederic Crozat wrote:

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Le mercredi 11 avril 2018 à 11:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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On Tuesday, 2018-04-10 at 19:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Tuesday, 2018-04-10 at 15:45 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:

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On 10 April 2018 at 15:39, Peter Suetterlin <> wrote:

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> (*) My other point mentioned in another reply, the > availability of net > connection without someone being logged in, *is* such > a > showstopper > though.

The default network manager interfaces connect just fine without a user being logged in. In all my tests, NetworkManager already does this just fine, and already has for quite some time (at least every Leap release to date). Obviously if this doesn't work it would be a bug that needs to be addressed, but I don't think we should assess the feasibility of features we could have today on the possibility of bugs which do not seem to have today.

Sorry, not true.

I just went to my laptop to do the test in 15.0: I logged out of my session in XFCE, went to the console, used "if addr" and the wlan had lost the IP. I can not post the command output, no network there now.

I know how to make it work (perhaps), but then, that is not the default config.

Later I thought to test the cable, so I connected it without login, and it worked. Why this connection works by default and not the other, I don't know; maybe it is related to needing a password.

Then there is the setting "use this connection by other users" or similar wording, which is a manual action that I haven't done in that setup. It then requires the root password to configure.

And it is expected. Wifi credentials are "personal" by default (they might contain data you don't want to be visible by everybody on the system) and not shared unencryted in /etc/NetworkManager.

If you want to get the wifi credentials available system-wide, you have to do a conscious decision.

I have a polkit file that allows any user in the "network" group to modify the system network settings, which is my way around this issue if others find it useful I don't see why it couldn't go into its own small package.

There is no such thing as a "network" group in default install and then, the next question to ask is how to populate it.

The package could create the group so that isn't hard, by default the group would have no users and we would update our documentation to say something along the lines of "If you would like your user to be able to set the system network settings which will also allow your network connection to start at boot up add your user to the 'network' group" Someone could make a reasonable argument that on tumbleweed atleast adding all users (or atleast the one created in the installer) to the network group would make sense. But i'm not going to argue either way on that adding my user to that group doesn't take long and its something I do shortly after a fresh install anyway. If anyone is interested here is the rule file below. tek-top:~ # cat /etc/polkit-1/rules.d/50-org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.rules polkit.addRule(function(action, subject) { if (action.id.indexOf("org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.") == 0 && subject.isInGroup("network")) { return polkit.Result.YES; } }); -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 10:38:57 CEST Stefan Seyfried wrote:

On 12.04.2018 01:08, Simon Lees wrote:

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group would have no users and we would update our documentation to say something along the lines of "If you would like your user to be able to set the system network settings which will also allow your network connection to start at boot up

..."WARNING: this will store your network credentials, e.g. your wireless passwords, unencrypted on the disk."

...

add your user to the 'network' group

Which is not true ... When you create a connection as a system-connection, address settings, DNS, BSSID, SSID and so on will be stored below /etc/NetworkManager/, but this does *not* include the credentials in general. For ethernet, you typically don't have credentials (you can use 802.1X on wired, but ...) For wireless, at least the KDE/Plasma NM applet offers three selections: - unencrypted (user session) - encrypted (stored in user KWallet) - unencrypted (system wide) Each of these settings do state clearly if the password is stored unencrypted. (Sorry, do not have the exact wording at hand.) You can significantly shorten the time between login and network connection if you use e.g. pam_kwallet5 to open the wallet. Kind regards, Stefan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 17:36:41 CEST Andreas Schwab wrote:

On Apr 12 2018, "Brüns, Stefan" wrote:

...

For wireless, at least the KDE/Plasma NM applet offers three selections: - unencrypted (user session) - encrypted (stored in user KWallet) - unencrypted (system wide)

For system connections only the last option is available, for obvious reasons.

No, its the other way round - for user connections, you can obviously not store it system wide, but for system connections you can choose on which level to store the credential. I have just verified it ... This is e.g. useful when you deploy a laptop, but provide the credentials independently. You could also store the credentials e.g. on a smartcard (although this is not implemented AFAIK). Regards, Stefan -- Stefan Brüns / Bergstraße 21 / 52062 Aachen home: +49 241 53809034 mobile: +49 151 50412019

On Tuesday 2018-04-10 14:51, Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 04/10/2018 02:33 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

I perfer a choice on install.

my experience with nm has been less than desirable, sometimes works, usually does not. wicked just works.

You're free to block NM and pick wicked, but what what other 'choice' you envision? We're talking defaults here.

systemd-networkd :-p -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2018-04-10 18:33, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 10.04.2018 um 15:25 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

systemd-networkd :-p

Is it usable in real-world scenarios nowadays?

Sure, works for me. Just keep in mind its usecase is that of ifcfg/wicked, not NetworkManager-esque choose-WiFi-at-will cases.

It would be really great if we could get rid of that abomination that wicked is and use something that's not SUSE-only...

If only all that work that went into the wicked dead-end would have gone into the development of systemd-networkd... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 9:01 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

On 10.04.2018 19:01, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Tuesday 2018-04-10 18:33, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 10.04.2018 um 15:25 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

systemd-networkd :-p

Is it usable in real-world scenarios nowadays?

Sure, works for me. Just keep in mind its usecase is that of ifcfg/wicked, not NetworkManager-esque choose-WiFi-at-will cases.

Ok, then we should immediately drop wicked.

Last I heard, systemd-networkd could not handle all kinds of "exotic" interfaces (means: bonding and such) IIRC. If it can do that today, let's get rid of wicked.

And... why exactly? So far the only argument you presented (except for strong words like "abomination") was "it's SUSE-only". Should we drop YaST, based on the same logic? Or zypper? You don't even know if systemd-networkd can actually do everything we use wicked for but you are absolutely sure switching to it would be an improvement? Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

+1 to default NetworkManager. current state of NM is totally different from Hard Begins and becoming de facto standard in Linux desktops. Plus WiFi connections are more common also in normal Desktops :D Kind Regards, Ondrej On 11 April 2018 at 09:57, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Wednesday 2018-04-11 09:29, Michal Kubecek wrote:

...

You don't even know if systemd-networkd can actually do everything we use wicked for but you are absolutely sure switching to it would be an improvement?

It is of course dependent on the particular administrator which extended features of wicked - or networkd - are considered important and which into their calculation of what consitutes an "overall improvement".

If wicked can make a sandwich, that would be of no value to me, but on the other hand, networkd not requiring three processes running in the background for static address setups (like wicked does) is, which means it sticks out. For me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 12:56 Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello,

only side notes FYI:

On Apr 11 10:48 Ond?ej Súkup wrote (excerpt):

...

WiFi connections are more common also in normal Desktops

Since we got smartphone usage inside our private house (did you ever see your children looking sad ? ;-) we have WiFi enabled and since we have WiFi enabled I won't drill more holes through my private house for more and more traditional ethernet cables (unfortunately we don't have a latest greatest house with tons of empty tubes or ethernet cables everywhere just built-in ;-)

FWIW: Our "normal Desktop" computers are actually laptops (those big and fat laptops with a big screen).

Which in fact means that "your normal desktop" (1) is actually a laptop, so that it ends up with NetworkManager with current installer rules (2) is a desktop, so that it would end up with NetworkManager according to Richard's proposal (3) has wi-fi, so that it would end up with NetworkManager according to my proposal In other words, with either proposal, nothing changes for "your normal desktop". So what exactly is your point? Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello,

On Apr 11 13:07 Michal Kubecek wrote (excerpt):

...

On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 12:56 Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

On Apr 11 10:48 Ond?ej Súkup wrote (excerpt):

...

WiFi connections are more common also in normal Desktops ... Our "normal Desktop" computers are actually laptops (those big and fat laptops with a big screen). ... what exactly is your point?

I think for the default behaviour for nowadays normal home users WiFi matters most so that there is no need to care about non-WiFi stuff too much.

I think the openSUSE defaults ought to be suitable for SOHO users too. Besides, with fixed network, you get gigabit speed. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

...

...

what exactly is your point? I think for the default behaviour for nowadays normal home users WiFi matters most so that there is no need to care about non-WiFi stuff too much. I think the openSUSE defaults ought to be suitable for SOHO users too. Besides, with fixed network, you get gigabit speed. Both used to work out of the box for years now, provided you use a desktop. NetworkManager covers the cable&wifi use case well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 13.04.2018 um 11:41 schrieb Per Jessen:

Ralf Lang wrote:

...

...

...

...

what exactly is your point? I think for the default behaviour for nowadays normal home users WiFi matters most so that there is no need to care about non-WiFi stuff too much. I think the openSUSE defaults ought to be suitable for SOHO users too. Besides, with fixed network, you get gigabit speed. Both used to work out of the box for years now, provided you use a desktop. NetworkManager covers the cable&wifi use case well. Does NM work for wifi networks that need to be up regardless of whether a user is logged in? (for remote management for instance). Yes, but you need to make it a "system connection", meaning the wpa credentials are saved somewhere under /etc/* instead of /home/uid1000/* and are not encrypted. If that is no issue, it will work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michael Ströder [13.04.2018 12:55]:

Ralf Lang wrote:

...

NetworkManager covers the cable&wifi use case well.

Not really for the cable case: No link detected after suspend/hibernate). I have to restart the whole network stuff (including libvirt stuff) to make ethernet interface work again.

Ciao, Michael.

This behaviour has been reported for WLAN also ;) Werner --

On 11.04.2018 09:29, Michal Kubecek wrote:

And... why exactly? So far the only argument you presented (except for strong words like "abomination") was "it's SUSE-only". Should we drop YaST, based on the same logic? Or zypper?

YaST, I would not care too much. Zypper? Probably not. But if all (maybe just all RPM based) distribution would agree on one package management tool, then that would certainly be an improvement. But for wicked. Well, I was at the openSUSE conference in Prague when it was presented, and it was a typical "we invent something before looking left and right what's already there" thing. Actually I still can remember Olaf's puzzled face when the RedHat developers (there was not only openSUSE conf but some other conferences at the same time at the same venue, and so other distro developers were present) asked "why didn't you work with us to get this into the upcoming systemd-networkd?" and he had to admit that he never looked if there are other projects that do the same. Reminded me of the Old (Y2K) SUSE style of bad NIH syndrome. The best thing systemd has brought us IMVHO is, that now all distributions are handled more or less the same from a systems administrator point of view. If distributions mess things up, you can fix them easily with systemd unit dropins most of the time. At work, it does not really matter anymore if people want RHEL7 or SLES12 from me, it's just handled the same way. That's a big plus. Everyone working on sytemd-networkd instead of its own niche implementation would be almost certainly an improvement for everyone. Alternatively, getting everyone else to adopt and work on wicked would also be an option. But given the history of wicked and the design decisions (XML config files...), I doubt that will ever happen.

You don't even know if systemd-networkd can actually do everything we use wicked for but you are absolutely sure switching to it would be an improvement?

I'm fighting wicked every day. I'm quite sure almost everything would be an improvement ;-) At home I even use NetworkManager on servers, because it works better for me (with fixed ifcfg-file configuration) than wicked. Even SUSE Enterprise Products (SOC for example) avoid wicked whenever they can, it seems. But it's getting offtopic here. Executive summary: I support the default of NetworkManager by default for openSUSE. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12.04.2018 10:40, Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le jeudi 12 avril 2018 à 10:27 +0200, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :

...

Even SUSE Enterprise Products (SOC for example) avoid wicked whenever they can, it seems.

This is absolutely false. SOC uses wicked and all issues found by SOC team on wicked were reported and fixed by wicked developers.

Then I'm wondering why I have to fight Chef bugs regarding MTU config, because it does *not* just configure wicked and then use wicked to configure the interface... ;-) But that's offtopic here and will be discussed in an SR. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Mathias Homann [04-12-18 04:46]:

Am Donnerstag, 12. April 2018, 10:27:22 CEST schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

...

Executive summary: I support the default of NetworkManager by default for openSUSE.

#metoo

Cheers MH

I definitely do not. -1 -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op donderdag 12 april 2018 15:11:36 CEST schreef Richard Brown:

I've done my best to collate all of your feedback and asses the feedback thusly

For: 17.5 people Against: 3 people (4 if I count Fabian's in person feedback) Unclear (on the fence/both equally bad/talking about adding features not on the table): 9 people

This obviously means there is a majority that support this change.

Due to the high number of unclear feedback though, I wanted to weight people's responses to make sure I looked at this thread from more than one point of view. As this would be a wide-ranging change, I felt a lot of peoples responses weren't very helpful when they were only talking about their own personal usecase and not considering the wider users project. Therefore went through everyone's responses and applied an additional weight of +0.5 for all responders who demonstrated they had considered an opinion beyond their own personal use cases.

In this case, the numbers become: For: 20.5 Against: 4 (or 5 incl. Fabian) Unclear: 11.5

Still showing a clear body of support for this change beyond those who disagree or have a more nuanced view on the topic.

With these numbers in hand, I've just discussed this with Leap & Tumbleweed's release managers and based on their feedback the current plan is

- It'a almost certain that there will be no change on the current behaviour for Leap 15.0; Although we could do it, any late change bring risks. Many of the negative and unclear comments on this thread helped identify the nature of those risks. Even if I am reasonably confident that many of those risks will not apply, I concur that the benefits of this change probably don't justify risking Leap 15 being a smooth and happy release. We've lived for years without this behaviour without major concerns.

- Tumbleweed will likely adopt this change in the coming weeks. I won't be rushing my submission to the changes (I already have changes the transactional server system role on the way and wait to wait for them to land before proposing more). openQA should be enough to ensure that nothing outright breaks, and our ability to tweak, tune, or revert things quickly based on user feedback will mean we can address peoples concerns as/when/if they bear fruit.

- Assuming things go well in Tumbleweed, users can probably expect this behaviour of NM by default for Desktop roles in Leap 15.1

Thanks all for your feedback

Thank you for bringing this up and your efforts so far. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/12/2018 07:35 AM, Josef Reidinger wrote:

Hi Richard, it makes sense for me to try it first at TW. Especially even if it looks like installer already support changing network manager proposal in roles, we don't try it yet, so you can find bugs. Same can be if there is higher demand for simple network proposal in overview page where people can one-click change from NM to wicked and vice versa. So YaST team will have time to do it before 15.1 if there is high enough interest.

Josef

It seems to me that this is the best approach. I agree with Josef. -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/12/2018 06:11 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

I've done my best to collate all of your feedback and asses the feedback thusly

For: 17.5 people Against: 3 people (4 if I count Fabian's in person feedback) Unclear (on the fence/both equally bad/talking about adding features not on the table): 9 people

This obviously means there is a majority that support this change.

Due to the high number of unclear feedback though, I wanted to weight people's responses to make sure I looked at this thread from more than one point of view. As this would be a wide-ranging change, I felt a lot of peoples responses weren't very helpful when they were only talking about their own personal usecase and not considering the wider users project.

I think that, as someone else mentioned here, an overwhelming majority of Users, especially New Users, will have their homes set up with wireless rather than a network of Cat5 or Cat6. This would also include many of the Small Home Businesses. I think the Network Manager default would serve openSUSE best. Those who want it otherwise would already have the knowledge required to switch to Wicked or whatever else they prefer. ... and we would probably see a lot fewer "can't get internet" threads on the Forums. -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 12. April 2018, 21:49:49 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 12:42:11PM -0700, Fraser_Bell wrote:

...

I think that, as someone else mentioned here, an overwhelming majority of Users, especially New Users, will have their homes set up with wireless rather than a network of Cat5 or Cat6.

This would also include many of the Small Home Businesses.

I think the Network Manager default would serve openSUSE best.

Once again, I have to remind that these users would get NetworkManager as default with my proposal as well. But apparently nobody is listening so they keep repeating the mantra that most users have wi-fi so that we have to give NetworkManager as default to everyone, including (and that is the difference between Richard's proposal and mine) those with *no* wi-fi device.

I even prefer NetworkManager for my wired desktop machines, because of better VPNsupport and easy to setup WakeOnLan... Herbert

On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:49:49 +0200 Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 12:42:11PM -0700, Fraser_Bell wrote:

...

I think that, as someone else mentioned here, an overwhelming majority of Users, especially New Users, will have their homes set up with wireless rather than a network of Cat5 or Cat6.

This would also include many of the Small Home Businesses.

I think the Network Manager default would serve openSUSE best.

Once again, I have to remind that these users would get NetworkManager as default with my proposal as well. But apparently nobody is listening so they keep repeating the mantra that most users have wi-fi so that we have to give NetworkManager as default to everyone, including (and that is the difference between Richard's proposal and mine) those with *no* wi-fi device.

And it has been pointed out that it would be quite surprising if the installation behaves differently depending on having your WiFi dongle plugged in at installation time or even on the installation environment having the correct firmware for your WiFi dongle. If there is a need to choose a default it better be as universal as possible. Then support needs to ask fewer questions to get your problem solved as well. Thanks Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote: [snip]

- It'a almost certain that there will be no change on the current behaviour for Leap 15.0; Although we could do it, any late change bring risks. Many of the negative and unclear comments on this thread helped identify the nature of those risks. Even if I am reasonably confident that many of those risks will not apply, I concur that the benefits of this change probably don't justify risking Leap 15 being a smooth and happy release. We've lived for years without this behaviour without major concerns.

Richard, thanks for the summing up. I would like to emphasize your last sentence. Evolving the openSUSE defaults to match the typical user case is a good idea, but not critical.

- Assuming things go well in Tumbleweed, users can probably expect this behaviour of NM by default for Desktop roles in Leap 15.1

It would be nice to have the option to choose wicked/NM during installation, and/or with autoyast. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2018-04-13 at 12:04 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Richard Brown wrote:

...

- Assuming things go well in Tumbleweed, users can probably expect this behaviour of NM by default for Desktop roles in Leap 15.1

It would be nice to have the option to choose wicked/NM during installation, and/or with autoyast.

+1 - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlrQsj0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XcAQCePxCLd/WihxYrWaoQX8SBJXg0 ZVUAmwa0ZHsbBNiUYDBULlA5xOB0z6AO =U8/u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 13.04.2018 um 07:37 schrieb Michal Kubecek:

On Thursday, 12 April 2018 10:27 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On 11.04.2018 09:29, Michal Kubecek wrote:

...

And... why exactly? So far the only argument you presented (except for strong words like "abomination") was "it's SUSE-only". Should we drop YaST, based on the same logic? Or zypper? YaST, I would not care too much. Zypper? Probably not.

But if all (maybe just all RPM based) distribution would agree on one package management tool, then that would certainly be an improvement. If distributions gave up on giving their users something extra (like zypper, YaST, SaX, ...), what would be the point of having different distributions at all? How is rpm vs deb "something extra"? Both fulfill roughly the same needs offering similar capabilities. Both are really only user friendly with additional higher level tooling (apt-get/aptitude/apt, yum/zypper/yast, desktop UIs). In fact, obs is capable of using both for packaging software and using these packages in image builds. Moreover, an average frontend user does not need to know either format or the underlying architecture. They have a software management frontend (today people call it an app store) and search/click what they want and get it. That's real convenient and tui yast offers similar capability.

People use openSUSE or SLE because it's easy to use and it gets their workload done - be it running a browser fullscreen and forgetting an OS even exists, be it programming, playing virtual switch/router, providing a docker host or a distributed web application platform (db, app server, frontend/loadbalancer, ssl endpoint...) Being different for the sake of it does not add to that. It's great if you can handle Wifi, VPN, complicated network setups, bonding, teaming, bridges etc. Redhat does that using NetworkManager (though teaming support feels hacky, adding json snippets into config strings or GUI fields). Ubuntu does that using NetworkManager. OpenSUSE does that, in some cases, using NetworkManager. It's great an alternative exists, but it does not have a friendly frontend yet. Same for future options like networkd. For the time being, NetworkManager works least worst ;-) of these options, for GUI users. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/12/2018 10:37 PM, Michal Kubecek wrote:

The reason I'm using openSUSE even if I wholeheartedly hate many decisions of the project in last ~5 years, even if I have my concerns about how the project is governed,

... which, of course, is why you put up your name and you are running in the current openSUSE Board Elections, right? ;-) -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/04/18 03:01 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

On 10.04.2018 19:01, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Tuesday 2018-04-10 18:33, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 10.04.2018 um 15:25 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

systemd-networkd :-p

Is it usable in real-world scenarios nowadays?

Sure, works for me. Just keep in mind its usecase is that of ifcfg/wicked, not NetworkManager-esque choose-WiFi-at-will cases.

Ok, then we should immediately drop wicked.

Last I heard, systemd-networkd could not handle all kinds of "exotic" interfaces (means: bonding and such) IIRC. If it can do that today, let's get rid of wicked.

The NetworkManager should be up and running before we log on to our laptops/desktops. For me it might take several seconds for my wifi to acquire its address when logged in to my desktop. Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/04/18 11:00 AM, Brüns, Stefan wrote:

On Mittwoch, 11. April 2018 16:50:21 CEST Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 11/04/18 03:01 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On 10.04.2018 19:01, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Tuesday 2018-04-10 18:33, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 10.04.2018 um 15:25 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

systemd-networkd :-p

Is it usable in real-world scenarios nowadays?

Sure, works for me. Just keep in mind its usecase is that of ifcfg/wicked, not NetworkManager-esque choose-WiFi-at-will cases.> Ok, then we should immediately drop wicked.

Last I heard, systemd-networkd could not handle all kinds of "exotic" interfaces (means: bonding and such) IIRC. If it can do that today, let's get rid of wicked.

The NetworkManager should be up and running before we log on to our laptops/desktops. For me it might take several seconds for my wifi to acquire its address when logged in to my desktop.

Connection to Wifi network (typically) requires credentials, which are only available *after* you login, as the credentials are protected with your account password.

If you are fine with storing your credentials in clear text, you can select to make the connection available for all users. The connection is brought up even when no user is logged in.

Regards,

Stefan-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I  used Yast to enter my password settings using wpa2-psk. So after a reboot shouldn't that information be ready and NetworkManager be up and running? -- Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 12.04.2018 um 17:42 schrieb Wolfgang Bauer:

Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018, 17:12:13 CEST schrieb Roman Bysh:

...

I used Yast to enter my password settings using wpa2-psk. So after a reboot shouldn't that information be ready and NetworkManager be up and running? YaST only can configure wicked, but not NetworkManager. You need to use the desktop's NM applet to configure NetworkManager. Or nmtui / nmcli - both work well without any x/wayland on the system.

-- Ralf Lang Linux Consultant / Developer Tel.: +49-170-6381563 Mail: lang@b1-systems.de B1 Systems GmbH Osterfeldstraße 7 / 85088 Vohburg / http://www.b1-systems.de GF: Ralph Dehner / Unternehmenssitz: Vohburg / AG: Ingolstadt,HRB 3537 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 12. April 2018, 20:08:46 CEST schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

You can also use nmtui, works even better than some of the desktop applets.

Sure, I probably should have written "a NetworkManager frontend", which YaST isn't. But I think that might have been more confusing.

Additionally, at least for simple wired interface configurations, NM was able to read the YaST configured ifcfg-ethX files just fine last time I looked.

No idea. But I'm sure it won't read the keyphrase set with YaST if the connection was setup with NM and configured to store for the user only (as is the default). ;-)

...

For the connection to be established during boot already, you need to tick

"Allow all users to connect", and the password needs to be stored system-wide ("Store password for all users (not encrypted)" on the "Wi-Fi Security" tab). You just told me in the other mail that this is not true ;-) (it is, of course)

I definitely did not. Kind Regards, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Stefan Seyfried [04-11-18 18:34]:

On 10.04.2018 19:01, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Tuesday 2018-04-10 18:33, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 10.04.2018 um 15:25 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

systemd-networkd :-p

Is it usable in real-world scenarios nowadays?

Sure, works for me. Just keep in mind its usecase is that of ifcfg/wicked, not NetworkManager-esque choose-WiFi-at-will cases.

Ok, then we should immediately drop wicked.

Last I heard, systemd-networkd could not handle all kinds of "exotic" interfaces (means: bonding and such) IIRC. If it can do that today, let's get rid of wicked.

and how do I search for a wifi signal with sysemd-networkd for wicked I use 'yast lan' and nm fails frequently on all my boxes where wicked "just works". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Citeren Neil Rickert :

On 04/10/2018 05:16 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

"IF laptop AND NetworkManager is being installed THEN use NetworkManager, ELSE wicked"

Looking through the other replies, I see that one "benefit" of NetworkManager has not been mentioned.

If I have, say, Leap 42.3, Leap 15.0 Beta and Tumbleweed all installed on different partitions (and I do), and they all use "NetworkManager", then my computer will have three different IPv6 addresses, depending on which OS is currently running. And the dns_masq service running on the LAN router will know all three of those. So if I want to SSH into that box from another system on LAN, I can sit back and relax while it times out on two of those IPv6 addresses, before it eventually finds the one that works.

If all three were to use "wicked", life would be boring for they would all have the same IPv6 address (derived partly from MAC address).

Wicked apparently defaults to using a MAC based IPv6 address and NetworkManager a privacy address (that isn't based on a MAC address). If having a consistent address is important to you, switch privacy off in NetworkManager and you'll get a MAC based IPv6 address too or use DHCPv6 for IPv6 address configuration (supported by both wicked and NetworkManager).

...

GNOME expects NetworkManager by default and shows a rather unpleasant error when loading up the settings screen without it.[1]

Clearly, this is a Gnome bug. It is not up to Gnome to decide how the network is managed.

Okay, I'm just giving my two cents. I can live with whatever is adopted. Right now, using "wicked", I am having to statically define the IPv4 address for both Leap 15.0 and Tumbleweed (but not for 42.3). That's reported as bug 1080832, which has not received any loving attention.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Neil Rickert wrote:

As for using DHCPv6: If I turn on address allocation in my router, then the result is that with NetworkManager, I get two IPv6 addresses. I get the one that NetworkManager would use without DHCPv6, and I also get the additional address assigned by the router/DHCPv6-server.

The latter (scope global dynamic) should take priority. The MAC based and the privacy address should both be ignored. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/10/2018 12:49 PM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

Clearly, this is a Gnome bug. It is not up to Gnome to decide how the network is managed.

Sorry? GNOME supports NM; when NM is not active, GNOME cannot do anything and tells user to use YaST instead.

Yes, but that is surely an openSUSE modification, rather than what is provided by upstream Gnome. When this behavior of "Settings" first started (I think it was with Gnome 3.26), it gave what was clearly an error message about NetworkManager not running. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/10/2018 10:49 PM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

So GNOME bug is that it gives error message about NM not running when NM is not running? Again - what exactly it is supposed to do in this case?--

Sigh! I want to turn off the automatic screen lock. So I go into Settings. And it gives me a large in-your-face message about NetworkManager that makes it look as if something is broken on my system. What it should do is just present me with the list of settings that I can change, and not mention NetworkManager unless I click on the Network settings options. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On mercredi, 11 avril 2018 18.13:00 h CEST Per Jessen wrote:

Richard Brown wrote:

...

What do we all think? If there is strong support for this idea I think Ludwig is prepared to let me try and slip it in as a late feature for Leap 15, so please let your opinions be heard loudly and quickly either way.

I would vote no. We use NFS on all desktops, including some booting over NFS. My experiments with NetworkManager and NFS have been, well, tiring.

Hi Per, did you try with autofs, I'm using it from TW and with ipv4/ipv6 nfs3 & 4 never get a trouble on mount on access ? I don't know how it would extend for mounted at boot but perhaps there's a better deps management ? -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch Bareos Partner, openSUSE Member, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Bruno Friedmann wrote:

[snip]

...

Hi Per, did you try with autofs,

Hi Bruno

no, I haven't tried it - we don't have that many users, having static nfs mounts is fine.

Bruno, thanks for the tip - that seems to be working just fine. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Content-ID:

On Friday, 2018-04-13 at 10:57 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

El 2018-04-13 a las 10:57 +0200, Per Jessen escribió:

...

Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 10:57:55 +0200 From: Per Jessen Reply-To: OS-fctry To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: NFS mounts

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Bruno Friedmann wrote:

[snip]

...

...

Hi Per, did you try with autofs,

Hi Bruno

no, I haven't tried it - we don't have that many users, having static nfs mounts is fine.

Bruno, thanks for the tip - that seems to be working just fine.

Which one are you using? I use systemd autofs for an nfs mount on a machine, works just fine.

Same here. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:20:39 +0200 Richard Brown wrote:

On 10 April 2018 at 12:16, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Hi All,

In both Leap & Tumbleweed we currently have the following logic for choosing which tool manages your network after installation

"IF laptop AND NetworkManager is being installed THEN use NetworkManager, ELSE wicked"

I've noticed an increasing trend that this can lead to confusion.

Many users from other distributions expect NetworkManager on their desktops regardless of whether they are using a laptop or a desktop.

GNOME expects NetworkManager by default and shows a rather unpleasant error when loading up the settings screen without it.[1]

There are certainly classes of hardware where NetworkManager might be wanted that will never match "IF laptop" - eg. my personal Inter Compute Stick.

And "IF laptop" is dependant on YaST correctly detecting you're using a laptop, which isn't 100% accurate, so occasionally even laptops might end up with wicked unexpectedly.

I would like to propose a possible solution.

It looks like we should be able to pin the choice of network tool to specific system role.

I would like to propose that the installation options KDE and GNOME therefore always have NetworkManager by default

Server & Transactional will always have wicked by default

Custom will keep the current "autodetect" behaviour, because we cant be sure that the environment that the user is installing has support for NetworkManager in this case.

Whatever is setup "by default" during installation will be able to be changed in YAST after the installation, just like it is today.

What do we all think? If there is strong support for this idea I think Ludwig is prepared to let me try and slip it in as a late feature for Leap 15, so please let your opinions be heard loudly and quickly either way.

Regards,

Richard

[1] http://paste.opensuse.org/33301696

Reviving this old thread just to say that after all the feedback on this thread, it's now my intention to implement this soon (probably after Hackweek)

This will mean I hope for it to be available in Tumbleweed & Leap 15 SP1

This change will likely come alongside some cleanup with the installation workflow. The intention is to stop using the openSUSE specific 'Desktop Selection' module in YaST, and instead use the SLE15/Kubic style 'System Role' screen

Practically speaking, users should notice no real functional change. The same 5 options (KDE Desktop, GNOME Desktop, Server & Transactional Server, and Custom) should be offered

But will instead be presented with a menu that will include more help text for each option, describing what each system role does for example. You can see how this works in openSUSE Kubic, which has already moved to this module in it's installation workflow.

Behind the scenes this will give me an excuse to do a major tidy up to the spiders-web which is 'skelcd-control-openSUSE' and remove lots of now obsolete options and references, that no one dares remove because we're all scared of breaking the old installation workflow.

It will also allow the YaST team to stop maintaining all of that unshared openSUSE specific code, and give openSUSE the opportunity to investigate options currently available in SLE, such as having system-roles offered by rpm packages. This is used by SLE to allow SLE modules to add new system role options on the installer. In theory openSUSE could use it so additional repositories could do the same thing. AFAIK there's no plans for anyone to actually make use of this, but I think it's kinda cool so I wanted to mention it here.

Obviously, everything done here will be fully tested and will only be seen by users once it's passed several layers of testing. But if anyone strongly objects, here's your opportunity to persuade me otherwise before I inconveniencing some btrfs datablocks with my xml.

Regards,

Richard

+1 This seems completely sensible to me. For those who have not been expsoed to SLE15, I like the new installer method with "roles". Tnanks, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org