[opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse] Why those packages wish to be installed?

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Andrei Borzenkov

22 Nov 2014 22 Nov '14

06:19

[moving to factory] В Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:13:08 -0500 Greg Freemyer пишет:

...

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
Before everyone puts arrows in you, tumbleweed mandates zypper dup be used.

Yes, it was true in the past because new TW version was based on different repository so you could not expect that it had higher RPM versions. Now, when we expect TW to stick to the same repo forever, this reason no more exists.

But "factory" has been using "zypper dup" for years as far as I know.

Surely the new tumbleweed requires it just as factory has.

Oh, new can of worms ... If this is true and new rolling release model mandates zypper dup as standard way to update, this is even worse problem for most users than closed source drivers. Even I managed to collect dozen of various repositories from which I need just a couple of packages each. If every time I update I must play "random repo of the day" game I will never switch to factory. I was under impression, that rolling release implies "zypper up". Am I wrong? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Show replies by thread

Patrick Shanahan

22 Nov 22 Nov

06:49

* Andrei Borzenkov [11-22-14 00:22]:

...

[moving to factory]

В Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:13:08 -0500 Greg Freemyer пишет: [...]

...
But "factory" has been using "zypper dup" for years as far as I know.

Surely the new tumbleweed requires it just as factory has.

Oh, new can of worms ...

If this is true and new rolling release model mandates zypper dup as standard way to update, this is even worse problem for most users than closed source drivers. Even I managed to collect dozen of various repositories from which I need just a couple of packages each. If every time I update I must play "random repo of the day" game I will never switch to factory.

I was under impression, that rolling release implies "zypper up". Am I wrong?

Yes, wrong. Tumbleweed mandated dup and iiuc also does Factory, at least I have been using dup since changing from Tw. But it doesn't pose a problem. It does require watching repos and using locks if you add not mainstream repos (which I have several). It's not all automagic. It does require diligence. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Borzenkov

07:36

В Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:49:12 -0500 Patrick Shanahan пишет:

...

* Andrei Borzenkov [11-22-14 00:22]:

...
[moving to factory]

В Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:13:08 -0500 Greg Freemyer пишет: [...]

...
But "factory" has been using "zypper dup" for years as far as I know.

Surely the new tumbleweed requires it just as factory has.

Oh, new can of worms ...

If this is true and new rolling release model mandates zypper dup as standard way to update, this is even worse problem for most users than closed source drivers. Even I managed to collect dozen of various repositories from which I need just a couple of packages each. If every time I update I must play "random repo of the day" game I will never switch to factory.

I was under impression, that rolling release implies "zypper up". Am I wrong?

Yes, wrong. Tumbleweed mandated dup and iiuc also does Factory, at least I have been using dup since changing from Tw. But it doesn't pose a problem. It does require watching repos and using locks if you add not mainstream repos (which I have several).

It's not all automagic. It does require diligence.

Packages come and go. It means that every time you do "zypper dup" you must verify that package structure did not change and repo content is still the same as you expect. Sure it can be done. But it far exceeds something most users are willing to do (or even expect to do), which defeats the idea of more wide testing. Freaks were using factory already. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

13:39

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-22 06:19, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

[moving to factory]

...

Oh, new can of worms ...

If this is true and new rolling release model mandates zypper dup as standard way to update, this is even worse problem for most users than closed source drivers. Even I managed to collect dozen of various repositories from which I need just a couple of packages each. If every time I update I must play "random repo of the day" game I will never switch to factory.

I was under impression, that rolling release implies "zypper up". Am I wrong?

Yes, I think so. Well, the devs have to consider this issue and design a new "zypper tup" (tw update) that works right with this release. Ie, able to remove packages and still keep "vendorstickiness", somehow. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRwg/8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V+xACfbmD83eV1oHQ3eO7RrOF/gpdl U/UAnAindJhnfFISJiyiPjvBaeyl+SEF =N5++ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

14:25

* Andrei Borzenkov [11-22-14 01:39]:

...

В Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:49:12 -0500 Patrick Shanahan пишет:

...
* Andrei Borzenkov [11-22-14 00:22]:

...
[moving to factory]

В Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:13:08 -0500 Greg Freemyer пишет: [...]

...
But "factory" has been using "zypper dup" for years as far as I know.

Surely the new tumbleweed requires it just as factory has.

Oh, new can of worms ...

If this is true and new rolling release model mandates zypper dup as standard way to update, this is even worse problem for most users than closed source drivers. Even I managed to collect dozen of various repositories from which I need just a couple of packages each. If every time I update I must play "random repo of the day" game I will never switch to factory.

I was under impression, that rolling release implies "zypper up". Am I wrong?

Yes, wrong. Tumbleweed mandated dup and iiuc also does Factory, at least I have been using dup since changing from Tw. But it doesn't pose a problem. It does require watching repos and using locks if you add not mainstream repos (which I have several).

It's not all automagic. It does require diligence.

Packages come and go. It means that every time you do "zypper dup" you must verify that package structure did not change and repo content is still the same as you expect.

Sure it can be done. But it far exceeds something most users are willing to do (or even expect to do), which defeats the idea of more wide testing. Freaks were using factory already. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

No really good reason for you to send this searately msg to everyone who responds. The reason for the response is one reads the list and therefore sees your posts. Please keep list traffic "on-list" rather than personal mail. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

15:08

Hi Andrei, Am 22.11.2014 um 06:19 schrieb Andrei Borzenkov:

...

[moving to factory]

В Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:13:08 -0500 Greg Freemyer пишет:

...
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
Before everyone puts arrows in you, tumbleweed mandates zypper dup be used.

Yes, it was true in the past because new TW version was based on different repository so you could not expect that it had higher RPM versions. Now, when we expect TW to stick to the same repo forever, this reason no more exists.

But "factory" has been using "zypper dup" for years as far as I know.

Surely the new tumbleweed requires it just as factory has.

Oh, new can of worms ...

If this is true and new rolling release model mandates zypper dup as standard way to update, this is even worse problem for most users than closed source drivers. Even I managed to collect dozen of various repositories from which I need just a couple of packages each. If every time I update I must play "random repo of the day" game I will never switch to factory.

I was under impression, that rolling release implies "zypper up". Am I wrong?

If you know what you are doing (and I have reasons to believe you do...), then "zypper up" will work just fine. I have the following setup since years: seife@susi:~> zypper lr # | Alias | Name | Enabled | Refresh ---+--------------------+--------------------+---------+-------- 1 | KOTD | KOTD | Yes | Yes 2 | cross-avr | cross-avr | Yes | Yes 3 | factory-debug | factory-debug | Yes | No 4 | factory-non-oss | factory-non-oss | Yes | Yes 5 | factory-oss | factory-oss | Yes | Yes 6 | home:seife:testing | home:seife:testing | Yes | Yes 7 | home:seife:vdrdev | home:seife:vdrdev | Yes | Yes 8 | libdvdcss | libdvdcss | Yes | No 9 | packman | packman | Yes | Yes 10 | repo-update | repo-update | No | Yes I played with the repo priorities and have packman with prio 100 and cross-avr with prio 101 I deliberately do not use "dup" for the following reasons: * kernel-default is from factory-oss * kenrel-desktop is from KOTD => if kernel-desktop-KOTD fails, I still have working kernel-default * I only installed selected stuff from packman. zypper dup would either bring too much stuff from packman which it provides for unknown reasons and which also is in factory (if it had the same priority 99 as the others) or nothing at all (prio 100) Now since "zypper up" does not do vendor changes, this all works out nicely. The downside is, that sometimes I have to manually check for "orphaned" packages and sometimes I have to find out why the update is not willing to update anything even though lots of new packages are available (usually because something requiring a downgrade or vendor change is blocking the update). But in general, this works out nicely without problems. Try it and have fun :-) seife -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bruno Friedmann

23 Nov 23 Nov

15:25

On Saturday 22 November 2014 15.08:33 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Hi Andrei,

Am 22.11.2014 um 06:19 schrieb Andrei Borzenkov:

...
[moving to factory]

В Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:13:08 -0500 Greg Freemyer пишет:

...
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
Before everyone puts arrows in you, tumbleweed mandates zypper dup be used.

Yes, it was true in the past because new TW version was based on different repository so you could not expect that it had higher RPM versions. Now, when we expect TW to stick to the same repo forever, this reason no more exists.

But "factory" has been using "zypper dup" for years as far as I know.

Surely the new tumbleweed requires it just as factory has.

Oh, new can of worms ...

If this is true and new rolling release model mandates zypper dup as standard way to update, this is even worse problem for most users than closed source drivers. Even I managed to collect dozen of various repositories from which I need just a couple of packages each. If every time I update I must play "random repo of the day" game I will never switch to factory.

I was under impression, that rolling release implies "zypper up". Am I wrong?

If you know what you are doing (and I have reasons to believe you do...), then "zypper up" will work just fine.

I have the following setup since years:

seife@susi:~> zypper lr # | Alias | Name | Enabled | Refresh ---+--------------------+--------------------+---------+-------- 1 | KOTD | KOTD | Yes | Yes 2 | cross-avr | cross-avr | Yes | Yes 3 | factory-debug | factory-debug | Yes | No 4 | factory-non-oss | factory-non-oss | Yes | Yes 5 | factory-oss | factory-oss | Yes | Yes 6 | home:seife:testing | home:seife:testing | Yes | Yes 7 | home:seife:vdrdev | home:seife:vdrdev | Yes | Yes 8 | libdvdcss | libdvdcss | Yes | No 9 | packman | packman | Yes | Yes 10 | repo-update | repo-update | No | Yes

I played with the repo priorities and have packman with prio 100 and cross-avr with prio 101

I deliberately do not use "dup" for the following reasons:

* kernel-default is from factory-oss * kenrel-desktop is from KOTD => if kernel-desktop-KOTD fails, I still have working kernel-default * I only installed selected stuff from packman. zypper dup would either bring too much stuff from packman which it provides for unknown reasons and which also is in factory (if it had the same priority 99 as the others) or nothing at all (prio 100)

Now since "zypper up" does not do vendor changes, this all works out nicely.

The downside is, that sometimes I have to manually check for "orphaned" packages and sometimes I have to find out why the update is not willing to update anything even though lots of new packages are available (usually because something requiring a downgrade or vendor change is blocking the update).

But in general, this works out nicely without problems.

Try it and have fun :-)

seife

I can confirm, I'm using this strategy since 11.4 and it's working great. Most of the time if an update that should be appear is not there, it mostly due to missing dep etc. A monthly check of orphaned and clean up keep the system clean. -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Joachim Schrod

18:41

On 11/22/14 15:08, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

The downside is, that sometimes I have to manually check for "orphaned" packages and sometimes I have to find out why the update is not willing to update anything even though lots of new packages are available (usually because something requiring a downgrade or vendor change is blocking the update).

I checked manually as well for some time, but forgot it too often. My current solution automated it: "zypper -qn update -D" outputs the packages that doesn't get updated for some reasons, mostly vendor-stickyness. My daily check for updates ends with a check that this list hasn't changed. (Quickly implemented by a short 35-line Perl script. ;-) If it has changed, but only then, my manual interaction starts: I have to check if either some duplicate package appeared in a repo that I use, then the reference list of not-to-be-updated packages is updated. Or if it's a package that I really want and where the update needs a downgrade or such, then I can force its installation by hand. Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

24 Nov 24 Nov

12:32

On 22.11.2014 06:19, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

various repositories from which I need just a couple of packages each. If every time I update I must play "random repo of the day" game I will never switch to factory.

I was under impression, that rolling release implies "zypper up". Am I wrong?

You are. What I do is: 1. duping to Factory: sudo zypper dup --from repo-oss 2. uping the rest sudo zypper up This way everything that is in Factory, will switch to it - everything else is updated from its repos. If I need something from Factory to stay from that other repo, I use zypper al manually. But we need to improve zypper for this use case I'd agree Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

12:51

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-24 12:32, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

On 22.11.2014 06:19, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

You are. What I do is:

1. duping to Factory:

sudo zypper dup --from repo-oss

2. uping the rest

sudo zypper up

Interesting. But, this will replace, say, xine from packman with xine from oss, won't it? They probably will be the same version, compiled with different options.

...

But we need to improve zypper for this use case I'd agree

Yep! :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRzG6oACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VgrgCfd/jujdsQzkCvqNBAdbYoDhDV zIMAn2pJkfS4SIqxmBJ31XiP47MZ/IbH =EWxH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Duncan Mac-Vicar P.

13:19

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

On 11/24/2014 12:51 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-11-24 12:32, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
On 22.11.2014 06:19, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...
You are. What I do is:

...
1. duping to Factory:

...
sudo zypper dup --from repo-oss

...
2. uping the rest

...
sudo zypper up

Interesting.

But, this will replace, say, xine from packman with xine from oss, won't it? They probably will be the same version, compiled with different options.

...
But we need to improve zypper for this use case I'd agree

You can do just zypper dup, but you need to have the repo priorities in the right order. Then you can put packman as preferred over repo-oss. Duncan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

13:29

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-24 13:19, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

...

You can do just zypper dup, but you need to have the repo priorities in the right order. Then you can put packman as preferred over repo-oss.

In that case, if I prefer some other package from oss rather than the packman version, it will be replaced, contrary to my wishes. With 'up' and vendor stickiness, this does not happen. For Tumbleweed to increase usage footprint this needs to be addressed better. It no longer is a developer only platform, plain Joe Users are becoming interested in it, just because the having the last version of things appeals a lot to them. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRzJMQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WLjwCeKLe4frTZnlyMYOkW3rmDeGn9 83sAnj4KCrrYN6+PFtjajxi8yLJZsEIw =Ffkq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

14:33

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

* Carlos E. R. [11-24-14 07:30]:

...

On 2014-11-24 13:19, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

...
You can do just zypper dup, but you need to have the repo priorities in the right order. Then you can put packman as preferred over repo-oss.

In that case, if I prefer some other package from oss rather than the packman version, it will be replaced, contrary to my wishes.

very simple to add locks so that does not happer zypper al -r packman darktable zypper al -r packman -r repo-oss darktable

...

With 'up' and vendor stickiness, this does not happen.

and won't with the example locks locks added shame there isn't a lock for all-except

...

For Tumbleweed to increase usage footprint this needs to be addressed better. It no longer is a developer only platform, plain Joe Users are becoming interested in it, just because the having the last version of things appeals a lot to them.

Using locks and priorities can become somewhat complicated but is do-able. Originally using dup and after using up is also available, zypper -v dup -repo <new-repo> note: this provides a list and asks for confirmation if necessary, deny and add locks and do over after you are satisfied, use "zypper -v up" and you maintain your preferred repos w/o applying priorities. There are *many* ways to skin a cat :^) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

15:27

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-24 14:33, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Carlos E. R. <> [11-24-14 07:30]:

...

...
In that case, if I prefer some other package from oss rather than the packman version, it will be replaced, contrary to my wishes.

very simple to add locks so that does not happer

Not that simple, it is extra work. You have to do it for every single package. With the standard distro, using "up", it is automatically correctly respected.

...

There are *many* ways to skin a cat :^)

Certainly. But Joe Plain User will not like that. You don't see many here in the mail list, but we do on the forum. By the dozens. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRzQF4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UzJQCeKbsedZ4vjMBetS9AKr1WlsMr qk0AnRuMvuZ/dti9wWWe1VkOUhPYeqOt =9nNC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

15:36

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

* Carlos E. R. [11-24-14 09:28]:

...

On 2014-11-24 14:33, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* Carlos E. R. <> [11-24-14 07:30]:

...
...
In that case, if I prefer some other package from oss rather than the packman version, it will be replaced, contrary to my wishes.

very simple to add locks so that does not happer

Not that simple, it is extra work. You have to do it for every single package.

no, only for those few packages you choose that exist in additional repos

...

With the standard distro, using "up", it is automatically correctly respected.

...
There are *many* ways to skin a cat :^)

Certainly. But Joe Plain User will not like that. You don't see many here in the mail list, but we do on the forum. By the dozens.

Well, I may not be "Joe Plain User" but I might be "Joe SixPack", and not far removed. Relentlessness may be the proper definition :^) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

16:21

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

On Monday 2014-11-24 14:33, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Carlos E. R. [11-24-14 07:30]:

...
On 2014-11-24 13:19, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

...
You can do just zypper dup, but you need to have the repo priorities in the right order. Then you can put packman as preferred over repo-oss.

In that case, if I prefer some other package from oss rather than the packman version, it will be replaced, contrary to my wishes.

very simple to add locks so that does not happer

zypper al -r packman darktable

But that also locks _versions_, not just vendors. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

16:41

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

* Jan Engelhardt [11-24-14 10:23]:

...

On Monday 2014-11-24 14:33, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* Carlos E. R. [11-24-14 07:30]:

...
On 2014-11-24 13:19, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

...
You can do just zypper dup, but you need to have the repo priorities in the right order. Then you can put packman as preferred over repo-oss.

In that case, if I prefer some other package from oss rather than the packman version, it will be replaced, contrary to my wishes.

very simple to add locks so that does not happer

zypper al -r packman darktable

But that also locks _versions_, not just vendors.

My Factory and my 13.2 systems still do version updates of darktable from home:toganm:photography, but they update from home:toganm:photography which has later builds rather than packman. Please explain "_versions_" as "zypper al --help" and "man zypper" neither offer that explanation. tks, -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:09

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-24 16:41, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Please explain "_versions_" as "zypper al --help" and "man zypper" neither offer that explanation.

AFAIK, when I lock a package, usually in YaST it simply isn't ever updated automatically. You have to update that package explicitly, and lock it again. It is locked to a particular version. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRzWCkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VyCQCfa+Y9iSY4rw0jTUnf1MV0g/nc zgoAn31d310yT7qI0wCd41QXlylo73rc =vJ1Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Yamaban

17:10

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:21, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Monday 2014-11-24 14:33, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* Carlos E. R. [11-24-14 07:30]:

...
On 2014-11-24 13:19, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

...
You can do just zypper dup, but you need to have the repo priorities in the right order. Then you can put packman as preferred over repo-oss.

In that case, if I prefer some other package from oss rather than the packman version, it will be replaced, contrary to my wishes.

very simple to add locks so that does not happer

zypper al -r packman darktable

But that also locks _versions_, not just vendors.

Well, which sour apple you will eat? Two choices: Either you mess with repo priorities, and use zypper up, or you use the triple : zypper refresh; zypper dup --from repo-tumbleweed; zypper up The magic is in the "--from [repo]" option. RTFM first. I repeat: To use tumbleweed with other repos, please make use of your full brain or let it be. Tumbleweed is NOT for "08/15 John Doe", nor for "clicky colourful" ATM you are arguing against wind-mills. The use of Tumbleweed implies that you are willing to take care of the needed steps for a fully functional system yourself, and solve upcoming conflicts manually. OTOH if you are willing to enhance zypper, please, contact the zypper devs. Otherwise, can we go back to the actual troubles existing in TW? Like why the hell LXDM "auto login" fails ONLY on the first try? Version 0.4.x works, in version 0.5.0 function "auto login" fails on first use only. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

17:20

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

* Carlos E. R. [11-24-14 11:11]:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2014-11-24 16:41, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
Please explain "_versions_" as "zypper al --help" and "man zypper" neither offer that explanation.

AFAIK, when I lock a package, usually in YaST it simply isn't ever updated automatically. You have to update that package explicitly, and lock it again.

It is locked to a particular version.

No, it is locked to a package on a repo. I have not experienced nor can I find documentation or testing results that indicate anything other than a "package on a repo". And "package" is optional: # zypper al --help addlock (al) [options] <packagename> ... Add a package lock. Specify packages to lock by exact name or by a glob pattern using '*' and '?' wildcard characters. Command options: -r, --repo Restrict the lock to the specified repository. -t, --type <type> Type of package (package, patch, pattern, product). Default: package. I have been using this for > two years and "it works". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:21

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-24 17:10, Yamaban wrote:

...

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:21, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

Well, which sour apple you will eat? Two choices:

Either you mess with repo priorities, and use zypper up, or you use the triple :

zypper refresh; zypper dup --from repo-tumbleweed; zypper up

The magic is in the "--from [repo]" option. RTFM first.

I repeat: To use tumbleweed with other repos, please make use of your full brain or let it be.

Please be polite. The problem I stated is that you can play with priorities so that, for instance, you get packman packages updated from packman via dup, but that also the procedure updates from packman some packages that I prefer from a different repo. The problem is vendor stickiness.

...

Tumbleweed is NOT for "08/15 John Doe", nor for "clicky colourful"

It is being actively promoted as such. Do you want more testers, or not? Then be kind to them. Sweeten their pill and be nice.

...

OTOH if you are willing to enhance zypper, please, contact the zypper devs.

which I'm doing, here. I'm asking for comments and improvements for the new situation. How? I don't know. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRzWw4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U4GACgkGWTJw/I/IiRD/2oeg8VnSPn ICMAnjXYsEx7rhoeW4pZoJhkqwWfv3ZG =V1Mx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:23

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-11-24 17:20, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Carlos E. R. <> [11-24-14 11:11]:

...

No, it is locked to a package on a repo. I have not experienced nor can I find documentation or testing results that indicate anything other than a "package on a repo". And "package" is optional:

# zypper al --help addlock (al) [options] <packagename> ...

Add a package lock. Specify packages to lock by exact name or by a glob pattern using '*' and '?' wildcard characters.

Command options: -r, --repo Restrict the lock to the specified repository. -t, --type <type> Type of package (package, patch, pattern, product). Default: package.

I have been using this for > two years and "it works".

I see. It is different in zypper than in YaST, then. That's the confusion. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRzW4kACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V2EwCfRYh2oSIIz44J+1ImMC+pzaqv 61AAnAgXkouohYHky/2acx1bL+ge7dT7 =FMOJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

17:33

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

* Yamaban [11-24-14 11:11]: [...]

...

Well, which sour apple you will eat? Two choices:

They make good pies :^)

...

Either you mess with repo priorities, and use zypper up, or you use the triple :

zypper refresh; zypper dup --from repo-tumbleweed; zypper up

The magic is in the "--from [repo]" option. RTFM first.

No, "zypper dup --from" is an available option but not a requirement to use Tw. Nor is "zypper up".

...

I repeat: To use tumbleweed with other repos, please make use of your full brain or let it be. Tumbleweed is NOT for "08/15 John Doe", nor for "clicky colourful"

Admining your own machine requires more that ....

...

ATM you are arguing against wind-mills. The use of Tumbleweed implies that you are willing to take care of the needed steps for a fully functional system yourself, and solve upcoming conflicts manually.

OTOH if you are willing to enhance zypper, please, contact the zypper devs.

Otherwise, can we go back to the actual troubles existing in TW?

Like why the hell LXDM "auto login" fails ONLY on the first try? Version 0.4.x works, in version 0.5.0 function "auto login" fails on first use only.

Please, not on this thread. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

17:35

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

* Carlos E. R. [11-24-14 11:25]:

...

On 2014-11-24 17:20, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* Carlos E. R. <> [11-24-14 11:11]:

...
No, it is locked to a package on a repo. I have not experienced nor can I find documentation or testing results that indicate anything other than a "package on a repo". And "package" is optional:

# zypper al --help addlock (al) [options] <packagename> ...

Add a package lock. Specify packages to lock by exact name or by a glob pattern using '*' and '?' wildcard characters.

Command options: -r, --repo Restrict the lock to the specified repository. -t, --type <type> Type of package (package, patch, pattern, product). Default: package.

I have been using this for > two years and "it works".

I see. It is different in zypper than in YaST, then. That's the confusion.

Yes, they are much different puppies. I did use YaST but zypper is *so* much more convenient and doesn't require mouse,.... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

20:22

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed?

Carlos E. R. composed on 2014-11-24 15:27 (UTC+0100):

...

...
very simple to add locks so that does not happer

...

Not that simple, it is extra work. You have to do it for every single package.

Besides what Patrick wrote, wildcards are valid lock components. I nearly always al kernel* before doing a dup or up, so that an initrd only needs to be created once when I do let a new kernel install. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Johannes Kastl

20:38

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 24.11.2014 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

And "package" is optional:

# zypper al --help addlock (al) [options] <packagename> ...

If this help / man page is written similar to all other I know of, options is optional. But a packagename is necessary. Regards, Johannes - -- No need to use Windows -- it's easier to go through the door. (unknown) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Using GnuPG with SeaMonkey - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlRziTQACgkQzi3gQ/xETbKD2gCfR1INItbLLE6oXkxieI6KZEIp yaEAmwQuXLEiFsIIcwyDMG0D4aHjNtBh =5L4t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

21:31

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Use zypper dup or up with tumbleweed? [Was: Why those packages wish to be installed?]

* Johannes Kastl [11-24-14 14:40]:

...

On 24.11.2014 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
And "package" is optional:

# zypper al --help addlock (al) [options] <packagename> ...

If this help / man page is written similar to all other I know of, options is optional. But a packagename is necessary.

Yes, options *is* optional, but package != packagename and you have failed to include the context: # zypper al --help addlock (al) [options] <packagename> ... Add a package lock. Specify packages to lock by exact name or by a glob pattern using '*' and '?' wildcard characters. Command options: -r, --repo Restrict the lock to the specified repository. -t, --type <type> Type of package (package, patch, pattern, product). Default: package. Note the difference, and "packagename" is not provided as an "option". characters. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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Andrei Borzenkov
Bruno Friedmann
Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
Duncan Mac-Vicar P.
Felix Miata
Jan Engelhardt
Joachim Schrod
Johannes Kastl
Patrick Shanahan
Stefan Seyfried
Stephan Kulow
Yamaban

[opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse] Why those packages wish to be installed?

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