On 2023-06-15 09:50, Mark Rubin via openSUSE Factory wrote:
I am a longtime openSUSE user (since SUSE 5.3 in 1999) who is now experimenting with Tumbleweed after shying away from it for years, in large part due to the issue being discussed in this thread. And I may be going back to Leap (or another distro entirely) for the same reason.
All the opinions I'm going to state are my own. Everyone should free to consider or ignore them, as they see fit.
On 10 Jun 2023 at 20:24, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-06-10 15:53, vani jindam via openSUSE Factory wrote:
You should only use "zypper dup" on Tumbleweed, and never "zypper up". I don't understand why is it that some Tumbleweed users still don't know this :-(
Because every time it comes up -- which has been hundreds of times, on dozens of forums, with thousands of posts -- a large number of seemingly authoritative experts reply with conflicting answers:
"Always use `dup`" ... "No, sometimes `up`" ... "Add `--no-allow-vendor-change" ...
True. ...
But the most important question in this whole `dup` vs `up` discussion (oops, I mean `dist-upgrade` vs `update`) is:
Why can't YaST2 Software Management (at least on Tumbleweed) do both? Or either, or the "right" one, or ...
Or can it? Most of these threads (not this one) start off with "Never use YaST 'Online Update' on Tumbleweed. Only `zypper dup`". (Or one of the hotly-debated counter-arguments for `up`/`update`.)
Good question.
Is there some fundamental reason why it can't? Aren't `zypper` and YaST2 "Software Update" (and "Repositories") both just front end applications for `libzypp`? If `zypper dup` can call one or more entry points in the library, why can't YaST2 do the same?
Or is it just some residual bit of old-school Linux snobbery? "If you're too stupid or lazy to learn how to use `zypper` on the commandline then you don't deserve to use our advanced Tumbleweed distro."
Maybe because, at least initially, it was recommended to use "zypper dup" in textmode (init 3). Yast (in GUI) was considered risky, the procedure could crash.
Sorry, but YaST2 is the crown jewel of SUSE/openSUSE. I know how to edit `/etc/passwd` and `/etc/fstab`, and can configure networking using the `ip` commands (and `ifconfig` et. al. before them). But I do such tasks so infrequently that it's easier and safer to use YaST. (Believe me, `ls -AlRF`, `df -hT`, and `egrep -i 'pattern|pattern2'` are hardwired into my fingers, along with dozens of others I use all the time. Not to mention my `.zshrc` file full of `alias` commands.)
The best thing about YaST is that it works with the true, original/underlying UNIX configuration files rather than a new, duplicate/superfluous/conflicting database system of its own. (I'm looking at you, `dbus`, `systemd`, `cmake`, and all the rest.) So one can use either the commandline and text files, or the GUIs. YaST and zypper access and modify the same configuration data (right?). Why shouldn't users be able to choose between them, preferably with inline help in YaST to aid their decisions on when to use its `dup` vs `up` analogues.
It is my feeling that yast is slowly losing functionality instead of gaining.
Then maybe there wouldn't need to be another hundred repeats of this thread as time continues onward.
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)