-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Jaeger schrieb:
Felix-Nicolai Müller <fnmueller@opensuse.org> writes:
Andreas Jaeger schrieb:
Felix-Nicolai Müller <fnmueller@opensuse.org> writes:
Andreas Jaeger schrieb: [...] You never will be able to reach everybody, even if you go to the forums. Should we really vote for every decisions? Or just for critical ones and who defines critical? Just critical ones. Critical is everything that is a core component. No, I will never be able to reach everybody. As this is the case for any questionaire, I guess we should stop asking at all? Because this would be a logical consequence.
;)
We have to discuss stuff and that means those doing work have to ask. But if we great such a high bar for them they might not ask anymore - that's my problem. How to do it in a convenient way on the one hand - and how to reach a critical and representative group of people?
I do want same recipes on what to do - you know developers want algorithms ;-)
So, what about the following for openSUSE 11.2: * we ask for ideas to implement and collect them in some tool * we will after some time close the tool for new ideas and give everybody the chance to review the list * Michael and Coolo will go through it and comment: + This is something we like to get in openSUSE, who will stepup doing it? - this is something we first want to see upstream, how to get it done there? - this is something we consider a bad idea * We discuss these during a public IRC meeting and on a mailing list * We prioritize the things and community or Novell engineers can commit to do one of the selected features (also in colloboration, with coaching...). * Each step is announced on news.o.o
Would that work? If not, the only critique that I accept is constructive: Write down a better algorithm ;) And if I misunderstood the problem the write one to solve your problem.
A good tool imo would be something like http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ . This way users could express what they feel to be important. As of today we totally seem to be lacking a tool to get user opinions easily. Therefore, devs might develop in the wrong direction. Those user ideas could be picked up and talked about by the devs / deciders in publicly reviewable meetings.
[...]
True reasons? There's nothing to hide: Check how many bugs the kde-maintainers@suse.de list has assigned, see the work for KDE3 and KDE4, assume a fixed number of Novell engineers working on KDE - and then it's an evaluation what to do: Support both KDE 3 and KDE 4? Or spend all energy on KDE 4? Or be the only current distribution that works only on KDE3? I could _know_ if... well, you know the drill. This is running in circles. So it is a Novell thing, a KDE group thing, a combination of both. Those numbers don't show the actual position of the people. Well, as it was pointed out thiese things work for gnome, I don't really understand what the fear is to do it similar with KDE. I believe as of today at least to me it does not matter anymore.
You lost me completely - what do you reference GNOME here?
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2008-09/msg00242.html I perceive the way KDE4 decision was handled this time still not transparent. At least I could not find a transcript of the actual happening when the KDE4 decisions were made. The KDE Team is big. I would like to be able to understand who exactly decided this. If it was done in an IRC meeting it would be great to get the transscript of the IRC meeting. Who said what and when, if there was a vote (something I am at least not aware of) I would like to know how the people involved voted. It to me is unclear how the decision was made. Sure, people were asked on ML etc, but the event of making the decision seems to be undocumented. If I am mistaken I am sorry and would appreciate to be pointed into the right direction. This is why I reference gnome - they put up transscripts of those things.
[...]
How much BS, traps and effort do I have to go through in order to be _able_ to contribute? And how can it be expected from me to contribute There shouldn't be any BS and traps and little effort - but unfortunately in some areas it's still too much effort. So I guess it will stay that way?
With "it's still too much effort" I intented to say: Yes, this is today too much effort IMO - but that has to change.
in all areas (maintain KDE3, talk to the community and cope with usabillity)? How much can and do you want to ask for? It's not like this is my entire life or if I'd get money out of this to live from. Anybody can only contribute as much time as they have - you can do a lot with an odd hour here and there IMO. Not for openSUSE, sorry.
Why not?
I already explained that my field of expertise is HCI (and HBI, but that is not of interest here). I do not get access to the data necessary to do something senseful. I could have invested 4-5 month doing research on openSUSE components. I had to kill this project because I did not get access to the data necessary. My research group decided to work on spatial attention problems instead for the current research period. I also have a responsibility to the four other members of this research group and I clearly cannot risk working together with a partner who is holding back information to work with (for whatever reason, missing time, fear of competition, review, simple communication problems). It might well not be intentional, but it makes it impossible to even consider starting such a project.
I hope this answers you questions. I hope you can answer mine. Not fair, you wrote much more than I did ;) sorry again You ask many questions - some of them seem to me rhetoric. If you like to have an answer to ones that I missed, please ask clearly again, rehtoric? OK, I really hope not.
If there were not rhetoric questions at all in your lengthy email, then I misunderstood you and we do not communicate at all ;-(
It is lengthy because I try to make the point crystal clear. I kinda seem to be lacking in this area.
Andreas
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