On Do, Jun 15 2023 at 07:50:40 -0000, Mark Rubin via openSUSE Factory <factory@lists.opensuse.org> wrote:
Because every time it comes up -- which has been hundreds of times, on dozens of forums, with thousands of posts -- a large number of seemingly authoritative experts reply with conflicting answers:
"Always use `dup`" ... "No, sometimes `up`" ... "Add `--no-allow-vendor-change" ...
--no-allow-vendor-change was made the default on Tumbleweed a while back, so there's no longer a need to use it with dup. It was left from how dup is done on Leap.
Possibly, documenting TW is considering impossible, it moves too fast. But how to update it has been unchanged for a decade at least, so it should be documented.
Or if the architecture behind this important task is so fundamentally flawed that there is no "right" answer -- or there are multiple answers that are so complex that they can't be adequately documented -- maybe it should be redesigned. Or abandoned. (Or I should go back to Leap or another distro.)
Hey, I think I saw somebody work on something called MicroOS and Aeon and Kalpa, since addressing architectural problems in TW is impossible due to excessive bickering on this very mailing list, it turns out creating a new and better distro based on the same repo is a faster idea to get it done!
Is there some fundamental reason why it can't? Aren't `zypper` and YaST2 "Software Update" (and "Repositories") both just front end applications for `libzypp`? If `zypper dup` can call one or more entry points in the library, why can't YaST2 do the same?
Somebody has to make YaST be able to do that, it's really as simple as that. I have done it with PackageKit before, but with how YaST software manager is structured, that task is more difficult to do there. And beyond that, somebody needs to also test if it works correctly. PackageKit distro updates are not tested to this day, so they are not a recommended way to upgrade. We do, as it turns out, have a standard of quality for things we do end up recommending.
Or is it just some residual bit of old-school Linux snobbery? "If you're too stupid or lazy to learn how to use `zypper` on the commandline then you don't deserve to use our advanced Tumbleweed distro."
Tumbleweed is not meant to be difficult to use, it's just very rough around the edges because we tend to argue about things on the mailing lists instead of fixing things. The amount of messages written in this thread by people who complained about this for years and have done nothing about it clearly show you have enough dedication to do something relentlessly, put that into learning how to fix things and fix them. I don't use YaST, and I did fix the PackageKit backend in order to help people with doing updates the wrong way. From my perspective a better way to deal with YaST software manager not doing the right thing is not fixing YaST, but not shipping it instead. If you feel strongly about having YaST software manager on the system, fix it, or submit a pull request to remove it from default Tumbleweed installs. Simple as. LCP [Jake] https://lcp.world/