Hello, On 2023-06-15 07:05, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 14.06.2023 23:55, Christian Boltz wrote:
That leaves 1% of special cases where "up" makes sense. For example, if someone really wants to update a specific package without upgrading the whole system - which is a very valid approach if you want to check if this package fixes a specific issue. In this case, you really don't want 142 more packages upgraded that might randomly influence the result.
And this particular Tumbleweed snapshot may have rebuilt the whole distribution using new gcc/boost/openssl/whatever so you end up with weird mix of software using old and new binaries "randomly influencing the result".
As far as I understand it this proves that "zypper up" cannot work properly in general in Tumbleweed so only "zypper dup" can and must be used in Tumbleweed. If "zypper up" is used in Tumbleweed the result only works by chance which is usually the case when not "the whole distribution" was rebuilt in between so users report that "zypper up" works for them but actually it only worked for them by luck. This means Tumbleweed cannot be used by users who need to update only a specific package without also upgrading the whole system. Perhaps compartmentalization (e.g. via containers) is the only way out that will work properly in general in practice? Traditional distributions implement an extreme case of "all in one" compartmentalization: All is in one single compartment which is called "Distribution Version N" where an update of a specific (application) package gets built with the (rather) fixed versions of the basic system packages which means users can update only a specific package because the lower level packages are basiclly fixed. As far as I see Tumbleweed implements the same kind of "all in one" compartmentalization but here all packages can freely move forward which means users must also move forward in "all packages together at once" steps. In contrast ALP is meant to implement finer grained compartmentalization via whatever kind of containers so users can update one specific software with all its lower level stuff via one specific container update. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstr. 146 - 90461 Nuernberg - Germany GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg)