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Hi all, my name is James Spedding and I work for a unit called RDIU in Anglia Polytechnic University. One area we are working is to provide solutions to school using linux instead of other proprietory software (you know what I mean!). At the moment we are focussing on providing file-serving and backup on one box, but soon we hope to expand to providing help for other services as people might want them. I am interested in raising the profile of linux in schools (as you all are), sharing information and helping out where I can. We also run training courses for teachers, linux users and sysadmins. I think Linux is the way forward for educational establishments and at the moment it feels like the lack of support and knowledge might be the limiting factor to the take up of open source OS's. So really that's my question - at the risk of repeating previous threads - what do you think is limiting the rollout of what is a better system into all schools? lack of support, lack of appropriate software, poor profile...... James
Hi all, Hi James,
my name is James Spedding and I work for a unit called RDIU in Anglia Polytechnic University. One area we are working is to provide solutions to school using linux instead of other proprietory software ---snip--- threads - what do you think is limiting the rollout of what is a better system into all schools? lack of support, lack of appropriate software, poor profile......
At my last school they had nothing to replace the Capita SIMS package. If there had been, we would have had a good chance of changing the whole school at one time. I'm not sure how the project you have currently will provide anything new? -- Best wishes, Derek
Hi James, On Monday 28 October 2002 1:03 pm, james.spedding@rdiu.anglia.ac.uk wrote:
So really that's my question - at the risk of repeating previous threads - what do you think is limiting the rollout of what is a better system into all schools? lack of support, lack of appropriate software, poor profile......
I am a freelance and have no dealings with schools, so this is just my 0.02gbp With SuSE 8.0 I cannot imagine why anyone would voluntarily use anything else. It installs cleanly, recognises everything and is real computing. What would be the point of using anything else in schools. By time current students have entered teh workforce M$ will be a forgotten nightmare. cheers Tim Pizey
On Mon, 2002-10-28 at 17:09, Tim Pizey wrote:
Hi James,
On Monday 28 October 2002 1:03 pm, james.spedding@rdiu.anglia.ac.uk wrote:
So really that's my question - at the risk of repeating previous threads - what do you think is limiting the rollout of what is a better system into all schools? lack of support, lack of appropriate software, poor profile......
I am a freelance and have no dealings with schools, so this is just my 0.02gbp
With SuSE 8.0 I cannot imagine why anyone would voluntarily use anything else.
It installs cleanly, recognises everything and is real computing. What would be the point of using anything else in schools.
By time current students have entered teh workforce M$ will be a forgotten nightmare.
Just to play devils advocate. First how do I run RMs primary maths software (Don't say Wine as I don't know what ti is or whether it will work for sure ;-) ) Second if it goes wrong and its Windows its just the way technology works. If it goes wrong and its Linux, I should have bought Windows. I have just been giving some INSET at a site where we have over 100 stations using Linux thin clients, KDE desktop. OO.org etc. Some enthusiastic people, some who are totally disinterested and some who are terrified of anything with a keyboard. IT is a con. Until the critical mass of confidence in something else is achieved the Windows con will persist. I believe it will change but its going to take a bit of shifting. Regards, -- IanL
On Monday 28 October 2002 5:49 pm, ian wrote:
On Mon, 2002-10-28 at 17:09, Tim Pizey wrote:
Hi James,
On Monday 28 October 2002 1:03 pm, james.spedding@rdiu.anglia.ac.uk wrote:
So really that's my question - at the risk of repeating previous threads - what do you think is limiting the rollout of what is a better system into all schools? lack of support, lack of appropriate software, poor profile......
I am a freelance and have no dealings with schools, so this is just my 0.02gbp
With SuSE 8.0 I cannot imagine why anyone would voluntarily use anything else.
It installs cleanly, recognises everything and is real computing. What would be the point of using anything else in schools.
By time current students have entered teh workforce M$ will be a forgotten nightmare.
Just to play devils advocate. First how do I run RMs primary maths software (Don't say Wine as I don't know what ti is or whether it will work for sure ;-) ) Wine, sorry, couldn't resist it. I am assured that it works so well that you can even get attacked by MS virii.
Second if it goes wrong and its Windows its just the way technology works. If it goes wrong and its Linux, I should have bought Windows. I have just been giving some INSET at a site where we have over 100 stations using Linux thin clients, KDE desktop. OO.org etc. Some enthusiastic people, some who are totally disinterested and some who are terrified of anything with a keyboard. IT is a con. Until the critical mass of confidence in something else is achieved the Windows con will persist. I believe it will change but its going to take a bit of shifting.
I am always suprised by the speed of change, I have no idea what will trigger it, but when it happens I think MS will be out of business in under 6 months. I certainly haven't looked back since SuSE 7.2, 8.0 is better. By SuSE 10 I feel MS won't be able to compete, but who knows. cheers TimP
ian wrote:
Just to play devils advocate. First how do I run RMs primary maths software (Don't say Wine as I don't know what ti is or whether it will work for sure ;-) ) Second if it goes wrong and its Windows its just the
Why not Wine? It works very well for a lot of tasks. There are also commercial versions available, which extend the core Wine functionality (e.g. Crossover Office). I'm using it at work to run Lotus Notes (under FreeBSD). A major advantage is that you can simply try the software to see if it works. If it doesn't, you haven't lost anything, apart from a bit of time. Most Windows software now seems to work under Wine, unless it does something *really* strange (and then you have the option of using native Windows DLLs, rather than native Wine ones).
way technology works. If it goes wrong and its Linux, I should have bought Windows. I have just been giving some INSET at a site where we
Yes. Unfortunately, that's just a mentality you'd have to get used to. Windows is expected to crash. People are used to it, expect it. With Linux, they hear stories about how really stable it is, they expect miracles from it :-) And, whereas the core of the OS is stable, that doesn't necessarily mean all the applications are. I've had KDE and/or X crash out on me quite a few times. It could be down to the software, or slightly flaky hardware, I'm not sure exactly (possibly even a combination). However, if Windows did that, you'd shrug and restart. It's expected. Linux, because it's billed as being so solid and stable, will immediately get the reaction that there's something wrong with it, and you should have stuck with Windows.
have over 100 stations using Linux thin clients, KDE desktop. OO.org etc. Some enthusiastic people, some who are totally disinterested and some who are terrified of anything with a keyboard. IT is a con. Until the critical mass of confidence in something else is achieved the Windows con will persist. I believe it will change but its going to take a bit of shifting.
Yeah. But it'll really only shift when the educational program makers write Unix versions of their programs. Once they do that, then schools may get enough confidence in Unix/Linux. Dan
Hi all, Hi James,
my name is James Spedding and I work for a unit called RDIU in Anglia Polytechnic University. One area we are working is to provide solutions to school using linux instead of other proprietory software ---snip--- threads - what do you think is limiting the rollout of what is a better system into all schools? lack of support, lack of appropriate software, poor profile......
At my last school they had nothing to replace the Capita SIMS package. If there had been, we would have had a good chance of changing the whole school at one time.
Chris, in Manchester, is working on something. The problem from our POV is that going it alone would cause issues with pupil transfer (My comment that we "don't support Internet Explorer" didn't go down too well with someone LEA side. When I tried to explain that nothing in the PLASC EDI specs from central government actually required it.) and transfer of financial data, which currently uses some strange piece of software someone at country hall wrote. IME the main limitations are political, with LEAs, to a lesser extent central government and broadband consortia. As well as the "chicken and egg" situation with specialist software, though that didn't appear to be an issue moving from Acorns to Windows. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
With SuSE 8.0 I cannot imagine why anyone would voluntarily use anything else.
It installs cleanly, recognises everything and is real computing. What would be the point of using anything else in schools.
IMHO installing and hardware detection isn't really relevent. Since installing should only need to be done once and end users, be they students or teaching staff, shouldn't be messing with the way the OS is set up in the first place. Typically you'd set one machine up and clone others with the same or similar hardware. Something Windows requires third party tools to do. Whereas with Linux you need no such tools. One of the things about Windows I think is bad is expecting the, possibly computer illiterate, end user to perform major maintainance tasks. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Mon, 2002-10-28 at 17:09, Tim Pizey wrote:
Hi James,
On Monday 28 October 2002 1:03 pm, james.spedding@rdiu.anglia.ac.uk wrote:
So really that's my question - at the risk of repeating previous threads - what do you think is limiting the rollout of what is a better system into all schools? lack of support, lack of appropriate software, poor profile......
I am a freelance and have no dealings with schools, so this is just my 0.02gbp
With SuSE 8.0 I cannot imagine why anyone would voluntarily use anything else.
It installs cleanly, recognises everything and is real computing. What would be the point of using anything else in schools.
By time current students have entered teh workforce M$ will be a forgotten nightmare.
Just to play devils advocate. First how do I run RMs primary maths software (Don't say Wine as I don't know what ti is or whether it will
Either you need to persuade RM to port that software, have someone clone it or use something else with similar functionality.
work for sure ;-) ) Second if it goes wrong and its Windows its just the way technology works. If it goes wrong and its Linux, I should have bought Windows. I have just been giving some INSET at a site where we have over 100 stations using Linux thin clients, KDE desktop. OO.org etc. Some enthusiastic people, some who are totally disinterested and some who are terrified of anything with a keyboard. IT is a con. Until
How would this situation be different if you have 100 machine with Windows 95 and MS Office 97 or Windows XP and MS Office XP? Some people might prefer Open Office to MS Office, especially those like my mum who is unimpressed by "that silly little paperclip". -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Mon, 2002-10-28 at 21:01, Dan Kolb wrote:
ian wrote:
Just to play devils advocate. First how do I run RMs primary maths software (Don't say Wine as I don't know what ti is or whether it will work for sure ;-) ) Second if it goes wrong and its Windows its just the
Why not Wine? It works very well for a lot of tasks.
Simply because it takes time to try it out with specific software that no-one else has tried and time is expensive, particularly when new adopters are not confident and might not even know WINE exists.
There are also commercial versions available, which extend the core Wine functionality (e.g. Crossover Office). I'm using it at work to run Lotus Notes (under FreeBSD). A major advantage is that you can simply try the software to see if it works. If it doesn't, you haven't lost anything, apart from a bit of time.
Yes all the bits of time add up though. Just got a client to-day that has a web based product that requires Windows Media Player. Ok use the Crossover at a cost of £800 for 100 user license and down load WMP - except is it legal to run it not on Windows? Perhaps we can use RealPlayer or another player with a compatible Codec? Maybe not insoluble but another problem!
Most Windows software now seems to work under Wine, unless it does something *really* strange (and then you have the option of using native Windows DLLs, rather than native Wine ones).
But it needs setting up and while the application might work, the installer might not etc.
Yeah. But it'll really only shift when the educational program makers write Unix versions of their programs. Once they do that, then schools may get enough confidence in Unix/Linux.
I agree, and the way to get them to do that is to get more desktop Linux sites out there and we are working very hard to achieve that. 3 recent sites with nearly 500 desktops between them, but there are still issues in terms of running software that Wine, Crossover etc are not ideal solutions. Still, I did say playing devils advocate ;-) Its still a struggle worth doing - all I'm really saying is that the shift will not happen without some considerable effort but fortunately many people are making that effort, from SUSE to OO.org and lots of small players like ourselves. Regards, -- Ian
On Tue, 2002-10-29 at 11:02, Mark Evans wrote:
Just to play devils advocate. First how do I run RMs primary maths software (Don't say Wine as I don't know what ti is or whether it will
Either you need to persuade RM to port that software, have someone clone it or use something else with similar functionality.
Tried RM who were keen for us to test it on WINE at first then they suddenly went quiet. My point is that in practical terms many of these things are more of a problem than theory might suggest but as I am banking my companies future on a Linux strategy, I do not believe it is impossible, just difficult or I wouldn't be doing it!
work for sure ;-) ) Second if it goes wrong and its Windows its just the way technology works. If it goes wrong and its Linux, I should have bought Windows. I have just been giving some INSET at a site where we have over 100 stations using Linux thin clients, KDE desktop. OO.org etc. Some enthusiastic people, some who are totally disinterested and some who are terrified of anything with a keyboard. IT is a con. Until
How would this situation be different if you have 100 machine with Windows 95 and MS Office 97 or Windows XP and MS Office XP?
Point I'm making is that its perception. Convincing people with brute common sense doesn't work! Its political more than rational, as you yourself have indicated. So we need able politicians as much as we need able programmers.
Some people might prefer Open Office to MS Office, especially those like my mum who is unimpressed by "that silly little paperclip".
Some is fine but they need to be in positions of influence if mass adoption is to follow. Regards, -- Ian
participants (6)
-
Dan Kolb -
Derek Harding -
ian -
james.spedding＠rdiu.anglia.ac.uk -
Mark Evans -
Tim Pizey