Hi Jeff, james On Mi 06 Mai 2009 00:32:16 CEST Jeff Shantz <jeff.shantz@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:22 AM, James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us> wrote:

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when a user decides to use the "add on " feature the YaST module should provide four basic patterns

I'm sorry, but I don't think we need this. I know that James always "figthing" against our existing patterns (sometimes he tells me he's not seeing them at all ;-) but I think we've covered this area already. If we need improvements here, I see the following options: * improve the current patterns (available in our SVN resp. in the Education repository as packages patterns-education-desktop and patterns-education-server) * improve the automatic activation of the patterns if a user adds the Add-On * write a special YaST Module which includes in the initial installation workflow and shows a list of extra applications * create different sets of CDs/DVDs - for example: ** Server-CD: just containing what's needed for a school server (and even here I see different target groups...) ** Desktop-DVD for grade 6 classes ** Desktop-DVD for higher grade classes ^^ all those CDs/DVDs could be Live-DVDs including the YaST-Live-Installer - it's just a question of time until someone in our comunity asks who they can be created...

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4) server - based on the openschoolserver from Extis http://www.openschoolserver.net/ , including choices for an SIS (student information system) Class or openSIS, School administrative software like

This is interesting. I haven't seen openschoolserver or openSIS before, but I see from your profile that were/are involved in openSIS development. Perhaps we could chat more about how it could be integrated into the education module once I've had a chance to explore openSIS a bit. From my limited knowledge of openSIS, I am assuming you just envision that when the user selects "Server" in the education module, it simply initiates the installation of the Base Application edition of openSIS, and then informs the user of the URL to which they can browse in order to continue configuration within openSIS. Does this sound reasonable, or do you envision the module going more deeply into openSIS configuration?

Thanks for your comments.

My original idea behind the YaST-Education module: * first provide a solution for home users * afterwards think about improving the module (if needed) for a complete school Why? Because my personal view shows that many distributions try to get into schools - and not many trying to get on the PCs in the nursery... So from my point of view, here's a list of requirements. Main goal: provide parents with a way to control settings for their children in openSUSE! Includes (this is not final): * activate a "kiosk like" desktop (Sugar?) to simplify the kids desktop * set system restrictions to allow only launching specific applications * limit the access to the PC for a set amount of time per day or week * include "Bedtime" limit (don't use the computer at night...) * restrict internet connection: ** use squidGuard for blocking/filtering URLs (or use whitelists)... ** use Firewall settings for blocking/filtering Email, IRC, Chat, ... ** Use a logfile or a "popup" to show kids and parents that (and why) a webpage is blocked - and "relink" them to a (YaST-) Module to allow that page (temporary). The points on this list are IMO very important for home users. ...and IMO the same rules apply for schools. Think about "Kiosk-Computers" in a school cafeteria or think about computer lessons, where a teacher wants to show/allow only a specific application. Think about schools allowing their students a limited set of pages printed out on the school printer... With kind regards, Lars -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org

Heya On Mi 06 Mai 2009 15:40:38 CEST James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us> wrote:

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If we need improvements here, I see the following options: * improve the current patterns (available in our SVN resp. in the Education repository as packages patterns-education-desktop and patterns-education-server) Only two patterns is educationally USELESS.

Thanks for bringing this up! http://www.opensuse-education.org/mantis/view.php?id=70 Please see my remark #189 and request for help from 2008-08-05! I see no progress from anyone helping to split the current patterns into peaces. Yes, I've done the initial patterns so please call me a an idiot not having your solution in mind at that time. But as I already noted: "I'm not the one to decide finally which package has to go into another pattern file => this should be something for the mailinglist" - So please do so -NOW! /me is waiting for your proposals...

Using the "Build Studio" to build and store subcomponent\specialized "task disks" is a much smarter idea.

What is the "Build Studio"?

Think about shipping physical media to the masses and education for all children. get openSUSE the Distro then get openSUSE-EDU the add-on , This delivers our system on two disks and that means low postage and download costs for the "total solution".

And who pays for the pysical media and shipping costs?

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My original idea behind the YaST-Education module: * first provide a solution for home users The 3 age groups still exist.

Well: kkirill has done a great job adding an age group to each application in our wiki - but what do you mean with "still exist"?

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* afterwards think about improving the module (if needed) for a complete school Giving children access to what they have in school helps build confidence in their computing skills. Think school first (eight hrs per day), home second (6 hrs per day), more importantly think TOTAL SOLUTION! The NASCAR \ INDY crew chief respects the car designer but listens to the driver. What would the teacher want? Parents and Teachers usually share the same goals but teachers are trained to deliver them.

As you are our leader: just give us a direction, give us specifications and we can try to follow with the implementation. As long as nobody stands up and tells me what we *really* wants, I'll drive me direction... If I think "Schools first" - what's the most important thing that's currently missing?

Studies show that leaving a computer in a child's room is detrimental to their performance in school. That all computer usage should be in a family room area. This way questions about their school work can be most easily be answered. This also helps the child to interact with the parents for as long as possible every day. These same studies show that having a TV in a child's room is also detrimental even when the parent can control content and play time. it's emotionally and physically isolating which is bad for anyone.

^^^ so we should create a package which destroys a computer in a child's room and leaves it intact if it's in the family room? Please: I'm technician, I need instructions and no adolescent psychology ;-)

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So from my point of view, here's a list of requirements. Main goal: provide parents with a way to control settings for their children in openSUSE! All that takes is for the kiosk tools to work. I have had a running bug report on Sabayon for two years https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483240 search "Sabayon" in the main bugzilla for more.

Yes - and the history tells us that you better should start a fork of Sabayon (and a successful one, please) to get this fixed. But maybe there are other ways of limiting system usage for normal users (like "chgrp nochilds /usr/bin/*") which work independent of the windowmanager?

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Includes (this is not final): * activate a "kiosk like" desktop (Sugar?) to simplify the kids desktop * set system restrictions to allow only launching specific applications * limit the access to the PC for a set amount of time per day or week * include "Bedtime" limit (don't use the computer at night...) All good in the "Primary" or k-6 pattern.

Do we need restriction/application management for the Sugar desktop? Should the "access time" be part of the YaST-Edu module?

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* restrict internet connection: ** use squidGuard for blocking/filtering URLs (or use whitelists)... ** use Firewall settings for blocking/filtering Email, IRC, Chat, ... ** Use a logfile or a "popup" to show kids and parents that (and why) a webpage is blocked - and "relink" them to a (YaST-) Module to allow that page (temporary). Good as a choice on all patterns , however , should have the ability to be disabled when using an LDAP or other authentication service. This way schools can manage these things from the infrastructure with group or object associations.

Right. Even possible with a special homeuser pattern ;-)

In both Active Directory and Novell e-Directory schools these settings are managed with network tools like Zenworks and Group Policies and can be in Linux networks too with combinations of tools like group memberships and Sabayon or the kde kiosk tool. Forcing network protocol management into the desktop patterns would just mean more to shut off for the team of people (usually teachers) who manage the PC's using network based desktop management tools. If the network manager or parent can go into a tool(sabayon) and add students\children to a new group that gets access to xyz application, isn't that much easier and useful.

ACK. But I'm thinking about a unique tool (YaST-Education?) working independend of the used windowmanager. (Think about teachers having great Sabayone settings - and students using KDE or console... ;) With kind regards, Lars -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org

*The original goal of the module, as described by jdsn (and as documented on the wiki at http://en.opensuse.org/YaST_Education), was to: * Create/edit/delete users and assign them to "edu-groups". "what groups are handled as edu-groups is defined in the edu-users sysconfig file. Only these groups will be displayed, only users of these groups can be created, edited and deleted." As noted in my last post, I believe that one should also be able to create custom edu-groups from within the Education module. ----JT: Works for me! * Assign Sabayon/Kiosk tool templates to these edu-groups. The module does not handle the creation/editing of said templates, but only allows existing templates to be assigned to edu-groups. ----JT: I have tried to get the OS team to keep the Sabayon module working. However, it may be that we need to adopt the module as a EDU component, if we want it do so, even though this is clearly a Gnome component. With this module running we could install all the desktop software and just manage the menus according to age group. Zonker? * Configure a transparent proxy and Internet filter, if desired. As James pointed out, this should not be forced on the user (since they might already be doing site-wide filtering), but should be an option. My plan is to develop another module for configuring Dansguardian/Squidguard that the parent/teacher could then later use to configure filtering. ----JT: I would further point out that this whole "build a proxy server and filter it" thing should be the domain of the OS team (YaST: Network Services > Internet Proxy\Cache and Filtering) not our subproject. But since we need it to help schools protect children..... Zonker? * Configure firewall settings for each group, if desired. I envision this as a list of well-known applications where the user can check/uncheck entire groups (e.g. Chat programs) or specific applications (e.g. Pidgin). The module would then handle blocking the appropriate ports in the SuSE firewall. -----JT: This should be dealt with as an enhancement request to the OS team for the YaST Firewall module. Zonker? * Doug Glenn suggested the ability to import a list of students from a CSV file, for example. The module would then create these students, saving the administrator from the menial task of having to create them one by one. I like this idea, and it's simple to implement. ----JT: This is an extremely nice idea, Thanks Doug * Doug also suggested the ability to allow non-root users to use the module. For instance, if I'm a school administrator, I might want to give a teacher the ability to control the computers in his/her classroom, but I might not necessarily want to give him/her root. This is certainly a nice to have, but gets a little hairy when we have to deal with configuring firewall rules as a non-root user, etc. Nevertheless, there could be a "root" mode to the module, as well as a "teacher" mode. ----JT: Again, Thanks Doug * Lars suggested the ability to assign schedules to various groups, allowing hours of usage to be restricted, and ensure that kids can't use the computer past their bedtime. :) I think this is extremely useful, at least in the home domain. ----JT: This should be dealt with as an enhancement to the YaST user module as a logon restriction. Business's would use this to keep workers from one shift being logged on during another. Zonker? * Lars also mentioned the ability to send a report to the parent/teacher stating the web sites that were blocked. I think this falls under the Dansguardian module that I would be developing, and would certainly add that functionality to that module. -----JT: should be part of the proxy server module , Novell's Bordermanager and Astaro both do this as "rule hitting" logs. I believe Novell is working on a Bordermanager replacement for Linux, maybe they intend to have an open source base module with a closed source enhancement. Someone should ask, no sense duplicating efforts, Zonker? * James has suggested that the module should actually install specific software applications according to pre-defined groups, and should allow the configuration of desktop software vs. server software. My feeling on this is mixed. On the one hand, I see what Lars is saying. By having the module install software, we're infringing on the domain of sw_single and the software patterns that have been created for the Education CD. Furthermore, if sw_single is run in the installation workflow, and the user selects packages and patterns to install, is it not then confusing to have the Education module ask again about software patterns that should be installed? I would be sitting there thinking, "I just selected my patterns a few minutes ago, why are you asking me again about what software should be installed?" *On the other hand, sw_single is not necessarily very user friendly for users with limited openSUSE knowledge and it would be good to have a simple wizard that would allow someone to specify, "I want to install applications appropriate to elementary school students" and those applications would be automatically installed. *My feeling here is that this is important to have as a separate module in the installation workflow, as Lars suggested, but I don't think it fits with the vision of the Education module (perhaps Education module is the wrong name?). I view the module as a "I've installed my system, made my software choices, and now I want to lock it down" type of module -- one that runs late in the installation workflow (e.g. after reboot). I realize this is going to be a point of contention, but let's discuss this further. ----JT: Since the conception of the Education project, I have been trying to further the idea that non-technical people in education, aka Teachers, need our assistance. They are constantly FORCED to build computer labs and support technology without budgets to hire professionals. Overriding sw_single with a module that introduces less choices yet presents choices based on the target location \ user group is indeed the core idea and reason I worked so hard to get this project started. In concept this would go one step further than Edubuntu, which provides almost no installation choices at all. If someone wants a machine based on the choices available in the default OS and they have enough knowledge to make advanced choices from sw_single while in the default OS, then they can set up a proxy server/firewall/Dan's Guardian/etc. and add the software for their curriculum from the internet without our help. * Lastly, James, you indicate your interest in focusing on the school first, and home second. Lars, you feel it should be the other way around. I think we're just arguing semantics here. My feeling is that we can satisfy both domains with the features I have laid out above. These domains are, by no means, mutually exclusive. The same basic needs are there: controlling what applications can be run, what protocols can be used, and what sites we want our kids to be visiting. ----JT: if the schools need to target the 3 teaching groups (Elementary,Middle,High school) are met, we will have already met the parents needs. Parents are another group that don't have a lot of technical expertise, yet, need to help a child. If while presenting the choices for the group the child\target machine belongs to, we also present a choice to "use internet filtering" we succeed in supporting the school and the parent. My overarching goal here is to present an education system on a disk. A soup to nuts approach to technology for educators. We already have the tools "in the wild" to do this, I just wanted to bring it all to one spot and simplify the installation. AKA "Education Technology for Dummies" like the books. After reading this over and over again, I'm beginning to think maybe you should build a new YaST Module to replace Sabayon and the Kiosk tool with some enhancements for group creation. The rest is beginning to sound like reasonable requests of the OS team. Eternally Grateful, James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org

Hi Lars, On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 6:27 AM, Lars Vogdt <lrupp@suse.de> wrote:

Can you give us some weekly news about the progress of your work?

Certainly. I am still in the requirements gathering phase of the project (coding for Summer of Code doesn't officially begin until May 23), so I don't have a lot of progress to report as of right now, but I will be happy to send out a weekly update. Right now, I'm largely focusing, as I mentioned, on gathering ideas from community members about what they envision the YaST Education module should do. I've also been reading a lot of documentation on packages like Dansguardian/Squidguard, and brushing up on my YCP skills in preparation for the start of coding. :)

I hope you're in contact with jdsn (the original author) already?

Yes, Daniel has been most helpful and has provided me with a good deal of information on his original plan for the module. Over the next few days, I will be amalgamating the ideas I have received from various people into a requirements document, and will send it around late this week/early next week to see what people think about the plan for the project. Jeff -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org