RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] can we stay?
Speaking for myself, of course you can stay! There are a number of schools and other educational making use of Linux on both servers and desktops, often by thin client technology. To see some case studies, have a look at SchoolForge-UK (http://schoolforge.org.uk - the Wiki HomePage via the link on the left). Hopefully you'll find some of the other resources there useful too. Please submit a case study about your own school and any resources you may have - there's currently a particular interest in how to use OpenOffice.org for curriculum delivery, so if you and your colleagues have some experience in this, do get it down on the Wiki (probably under the Open Curriculum project). Chris Puttick -----Original Message----- From: fsanta To: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Cc: duncan@ctv.es Sent: 10/8/03 10:59 PM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] can we stay? Hi everyone. We are a small international school in Spain running courses for KS1-3, gcse and A-level. We use 8.2 on a 100% teaching lan basis. If we are allowed to stay on the list, could we ask if anyone else is using Linux over there? Not just as a server. Thanks, Steve. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
On a totally different subject.....are there Linux resources registered with curriculum online and eligible for ELCs...if not why not??? -----Original Message----- From: Chris Puttick [mailto:chris@centralmanclc.com] Sent: 09 October 2003 08:32 To: 'fsanta '; 'suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com ' Cc: 'duncan@ctv.es ' Subject: RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] can we stay? Speaking for myself, of course you can stay! There are a number of schools and other educational making use of Linux on both servers and desktops, often by thin client technology. To see some case studies, have a look at SchoolForge-UK (http://schoolforge.org.uk - the Wiki HomePage via the link on the left). Hopefully you'll find some of the other resources there useful too. Please submit a case study about your own school and any resources you may have - there's currently a particular interest in how to use OpenOffice.org for curriculum delivery, so if you and your colleagues have some experience in this, do get it down on the Wiki (probably under the Open Curriculum project). Chris Puttick -----Original Message----- From: fsanta To: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Cc: duncan@ctv.es Sent: 10/8/03 10:59 PM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] can we stay? Hi everyone. We are a small international school in Spain running courses for KS1-3, gcse and A-level. We use 8.2 on a 100% teaching lan basis. If we are allowed to stay on the list, could we ask if anyone else is using Linux over there? Not just as a server. Thanks, Steve. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 09:36, chris_thing-e wrote:
On a totally different subject.....are there Linux resources registered with curriculum online and eligible for ELCs...if not why not???
ELCs are only eligible for edu content. ie OpenOffice.org or Suse Linux
distro would not count. Freeduc might but you have to state which nit of
the NC it supports and go through the registration procedures with COL.
Also, why bother doing all that if it can be got free? ie will anyone
spend ELCs on a free product? Seems to me to rather defeat the object.
You can't use ELCs on support, so the government are effectively
providing a subsidy for one particular software model, ie the licensed
one at the expense of another. ie if you are in the business of
licensing software you get a massive injection of taxpayers money to
further your development. If you are an open source developer you get
zilch!
Write to your MP! Or E-mail the opposition to get a question asked in
the house. I have already put some stuff out to politicians on this but
the more the merrier.
Keep it straight and simple.
The government are subsidising big foreign corporates who own much of
the licensed software being sold through the E-learning Credits Scheme.
They are providing no help at all to fledgling British Businesses
working in the free software market locally and selling support in order
to put investment back into open source development.
--
ian
My focus was on 'an opportunity' and how to use the govt funding to further enable/support Linux roll out rather than on another point of complaint.....the issue of free and open source is of course a problem in this context......but any money a school could save from it's own budget by using elcs would be spare money for other things...like linux support! If it's too hard then so be it! Rgds Chris -----Original Message----- From: ian [mailto:ian.lynch2@ntlworld.com] Sent: 09 October 2003 10:13 To: chris_thing-e Cc: 'Chris Puttick'; 'fsanta '; suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com; duncan@ctv.es Subject: RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] can we stay? On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 09:36, chris_thing-e wrote:
On a totally different subject.....are there Linux resources registered with curriculum online and eligible for ELCs...if not why not???
ELCs are only eligible for edu content. ie OpenOffice.org or Suse Linux
distro would not count. Freeduc might but you have to state which nit of
the NC it supports and go through the registration procedures with COL.
Also, why bother doing all that if it can be got free? ie will anyone
spend ELCs on a free product? Seems to me to rather defeat the object.
You can't use ELCs on support, so the government are effectively
providing a subsidy for one particular software model, ie the licensed
one at the expense of another. ie if you are in the business of
licensing software you get a massive injection of taxpayers money to
further your development. If you are an open source developer you get
zilch!
Write to your MP! Or E-mail the opposition to get a question asked in
the house. I have already put some stuff out to politicians on this but
the more the merrier.
Keep it straight and simple.
The government are subsidising big foreign corporates who own much of
the licensed software being sold through the E-learning Credits Scheme.
They are providing no help at all to fledgling British Businesses
working in the free software market locally and selling support in order
to put investment back into open source development.
--
ian
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 12:39, chris_thing-e wrote:
My focus was on 'an opportunity' and how to use the govt funding to further enable/support Linux roll out rather than on another point of complaint.....the issue of free and open source is of course a problem in this context......but any money a school could save from it's own budget by using elcs would be spare money for other things...like linux support!
If it's too hard then so be it!
I run a small business based on open source so I tend to be a bit less
willing to say so be it when the government funds my (Often foreign)
competitors to the tune of £100m using my taxes!
At the moment I don't see much scope for ELCs to help free software. If
there is an opportunity, believe me I'd be the first to exploit it. The
fact is that quite the reverse is true. Rumour has it that ELCs will be
opened up to buy *any* software. This simply means to the school MS
Office etc is free so there is not much incentive to try anything
different. Ok, we could register OO.o discs at say £500 each for ELCs
but who would bother when they can just download and cut a disc? If they
allowed support to be included it might be a different ball game. If not
the £100m that could have been spent on some Linux development or OO.o
content is entirely tied to licensed non-free software.
Not so much a point of complaint as the fact that people need to realise
that ELCs are a political sop to licensed software vendors who lobbied
massively because of the BBC initiative to spend £160m on on-line
resources. The government is taking school money and only giving it back
to them conditional on them spending it on something the government has
decided in its vast wisdom about ICT that schools need, and then only
from a certain category of supplier. So much for free markets and local
management.
Ok, you were looking for an angle to promote free software but its a bit
naive to think of schools "saving" from their own budgets by using ELCs.
Who does this money belong to? Its money that could be delegated direct
to schools so they could spend it on what they judged to be the highest
priority. The best way to support Linux roll outs is to let the end-user
see the true costs to them personally and the opportunity cost of having
to pay for the alternatives. The more that is hidden, the less likely
anyone will change.
--
ian
Electronic learning credits...the name for the funds provided to schools to buy digital curriculum materials for use in the classroom..... -----Original Message----- From: fsanta [mailto:fsanta@arrakis.es] Sent: 09 October 2003 13:39 To: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] can we stay?
At the moment I don't see much scope for ELCs to help free software.
What is ELCs please? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 01:17:01PM +0100, ian wrote:
I run a small business based on open source so I tend to be a bit less willing to say so be it when the government funds my (Often foreign) competitors to the tune of £100m using my taxes!
Government, both central and local appears to be quite happy to throw money at various proprietary software companies. At the same time activly ignoring open source alternatives.
At the moment I don't see much scope for ELCs to help free software. If there is an opportunity, believe me I'd be the first to exploit it. The fact is that quite the reverse is true. Rumour has it that ELCs will be opened up to buy *any* software. This simply means to the school MS Office etc is free so there is not much incentive to try anything
It is already confusing teachers to think that proprietary software is "free software".
different. Ok, we could register OO.o discs at say £500 each for ELCs but who would bother when they can just download and cut a disc? If they allowed support to be included it might be a different ball game. If not the £100m that could have been spent on some Linux development or OO.o content is entirely tied to licensed non-free software.
The daftest so far is Accelerated Learning, who's "Champs" product consists of the Windows version Apache hidden inside a zip file. But they "don't support" using any other software for the content also stuck in the zip file. When all of the web servers they run, including the Internet version of the same product are running on Linux...
Not so much a point of complaint as the fact that people need to realise that ELCs are a political sop to licensed software vendors who lobbied massively because of the BBC initiative to spend £160m on on-line resources. The government is taking school money and only giving it back to them conditional on them spending it on something the government has decided in its vast wisdom about ICT that schools need, and then only
Effectivly "E-Learning Credits" equate to "Ring Fenced Corporate Welfare for Proprietary Software Companies". So maybe they should be called "RFCWPSCs"
from a certain category of supplier. So much for free markets and local management.
"E-Government" and PFIs are two ways in which local management of schools has been weakened. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
As a col afterthought the programme also provides..... A wide range of multi-media content for teachers to use in the classroom, some of which is free...and more coming via the cultural sector...... -----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 09 October 2003 13:56 To: ian Cc: chris_thing-e; suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] can we stay? On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 01:17:01PM +0100, ian wrote:
I run a small business based on open source so I tend to be a bit less
willing to say so be it when the government funds my (Often foreign) competitors to the tune of £100m using my taxes!
Government, both central and local appears to be quite happy to throw money at various proprietary software companies. At the same time activly ignoring open source alternatives.
At the moment I don't see much scope for ELCs to help free software. If there is an opportunity, believe me I'd be the first to exploit it.
The fact is that quite the reverse is true. Rumour has it that ELCs will be opened up to buy *any* software. This simply means to the school MS Office etc is free so there is not much incentive to try anything
It is already confusing teachers to think that proprietary software is "free software".
different. Ok, we could register OO.o discs at say £500 each for ELCs but who would bother when they can just download and cut a disc? If they allowed support to be included it might be a different ball game.
If not the £100m that could have been spent on some Linux development or OO.o content is entirely tied to licensed non-free software.
The daftest so far is Accelerated Learning, who's "Champs" product consists of the Windows version Apache hidden inside a zip file. But they "don't support" using any other software for the content also stuck in the zip file. When all of the web servers they run, including the Internet version of the same product are running on Linux...
Not so much a point of complaint as the fact that people need to realise that ELCs are a political sop to licensed software vendors who
lobbied massively because of the BBC initiative to spend £160m on on-line resources. The government is taking school money and only giving it back to them conditional on them spending it on something the government has decided in its vast wisdom about ICT that schools need, and then only
Effectivly "E-Learning Credits" equate to "Ring Fenced Corporate Welfare for Proprietary Software Companies". So maybe they should be called "RFCWPSCs"
from a certain category of supplier. So much for free markets and local management.
"E-Government" and PFIs are two ways in which local management of schools has been weakened. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
Being a supporter of viable alternatives to 'the single supplier path' the industry has got stuck in, and having been an active supporter linux based solutions for many years, I promise I wasn't looking for a political debate, and I'm not sure that I am glad I started this debate....but there are some interesting perspectives here in the emails!!!! I would argue that there are more viewpoints than one however....and whilst some of the collective points put forwards in these exchanges may be true, some are not...and stringing them all together into a story doesnt necessarily make the story true either! There is a bigger picture than both open source/free software, and schools, and whilst many things are positive in the programme,ther are of course some that are less so! - overall for UK Plc I see the programme objectives as positive, and the impact it is making on schools positive too!.... This I believe is the most important point however, there is £100m available now, and if there is an oportunity to use some of that for the benefit of Linux roll out in schools/education and to the benefit of schools using Linux then I would not like to see that opportunity missed. Better I feel to spend the energies on trying to find a positive way to use the monies than on the negative debating on why it shouldn't have been done in the first place, or done in a different way....we are where we are!!! My understanding is that it is not intended to open out applicability for col registration to all software as you suggest......however some opening out may still be beneficial to Linux solutions.....so a question "is all Linux applicable software, content and applications free?" Rgds Chris -----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 09 October 2003 13:56 To: ian Cc: chris_thing-e; suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] can we stay? On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 01:17:01PM +0100, ian wrote:
I run a small business based on open source so I tend to be a bit less
willing to say so be it when the government funds my (Often foreign) competitors to the tune of £100m using my taxes!
Government, both central and local appears to be quite happy to throw money at various proprietary software companies. At the same time activly ignoring open source alternatives.
At the moment I don't see much scope for ELCs to help free software. If there is an opportunity, believe me I'd be the first to exploit it.
The fact is that quite the reverse is true. Rumour has it that ELCs will be opened up to buy *any* software. This simply means to the school MS Office etc is free so there is not much incentive to try anything
It is already confusing teachers to think that proprietary software is "free software".
different. Ok, we could register OO.o discs at say £500 each for ELCs but who would bother when they can just download and cut a disc? If they allowed support to be included it might be a different ball game.
If not the £100m that could have been spent on some Linux development or OO.o content is entirely tied to licensed non-free software.
The daftest so far is Accelerated Learning, who's "Champs" product consists of the Windows version Apache hidden inside a zip file. But they "don't support" using any other software for the content also stuck in the zip file. When all of the web servers they run, including the Internet version of the same product are running on Linux...
Not so much a point of complaint as the fact that people need to realise that ELCs are a political sop to licensed software vendors who
lobbied massively because of the BBC initiative to spend £160m on on-line resources. The government is taking school money and only giving it back to them conditional on them spending it on something the government has decided in its vast wisdom about ICT that schools need, and then only
Effectivly "E-Learning Credits" equate to "Ring Fenced Corporate Welfare for Proprietary Software Companies". So maybe they should be called "RFCWPSCs"
from a certain category of supplier. So much for free markets and local management.
"E-Government" and PFIs are two ways in which local management of schools has been weakened. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 14:29, chris_thing-e wrote:
Being a supporter of viable alternatives to 'the single supplier path' the industry has got stuck in, and having been an active supporter linux based solutions for many years, I promise I wasn't looking for a political debate, and I'm not sure that I am glad I started this debate....but there are some interesting perspectives here in the emails!!!!
I would argue that there are more viewpoints than one however....and whilst some of the collective points put forwards in these exchanges may be true, some are not...and stringing them all together into a story doesnt necessarily make the story true either!
There is a bigger picture than both open source/free software, and schools, and whilst many things are positive in the programme,ther are of course some that are less so! - overall for UK Plc I see the programme objectives as positive, and the impact it is making on schools positive too!....
Ah well, that is the point of discussion. To get at the truth and to make things better. The bigger picture indeed :-)Overall for UK PLC investing £100m a year in open software development would almost certainly save more than £100m in licensing costs therefore if looking at the bigger picture one would then be able to free up even more resources and make schools much better off. If you read the consultation strategy paper put out by the DfES on E-learning, you will soon realise its more a wish than a strategy. Strategies require sustainability and costings. The strategy paper makes no attempt to cost anything. If I ran my business like that it wouldn't last very long. The bigger picture is about getting best value for the investment resource, not looking at a myriad of "initiatives" that are mainly not about rational improvement.
This I believe is the most important point however, there is £100m available now, and if there is an oportunity to use some of that for the benefit of Linux roll out in schools/education and to the benefit of schools using Linux then I would not like to see that opportunity missed.
*IF* - I'm saying there isn't an opportunity but we shouldn't let that just pass by. If its important to consider a minor impact on things through a possible opportunity, surely the bigger picture would dictate that its even more important to consider the lost opportunity of the whole deal.
Better I feel to spend the energies on trying to find a positive way to use the monies than on the negative debating on why it shouldn't have been done in the first place, or done in a different way....we are where we are!!!
I'm a very positive person. Getting desktop Linux into schools requires that as a pre-requisite ;-). However we also have to be prepared to call to account people who hold public office and waste tax payers money. That is not being negative, its being extremely positive.
My understanding is that it is not intended to open out applicability for col registration to all software as you suggest...
I'm actually a registered provider for COL and I was told by the DfES that this was a possibility because they have had so much flack from schools who do not like being told how to spend their money. Look at the shortfall on spending in the first year. The fact is schools end up spending on things they don't really want and in some cases never get round to using.
..however some opening out may still be beneficial to Linux solutions.....so a question "is all Linux applicable software, content and applications free?"
Linux is the kernel. GNU/Linux stuff is generally free. There are
proprietary products built around Linux that are not and these might
benefit to an extent. Since the licensed software community successfully
persuaded the DfES to budget £100m a year on their wares, seems to me
that if the FLOSS community community campaigned in the right way it
might too get some development money. Again looking at the bigger
picture, putting effort into this seems to me more likely to have an
impact than going through COL registration for FLOSS products on the
current model.
--
ian
participants (5)
-
Chris Puttick
-
chris_thing-e
-
fsanta
-
ian
-
Mark Evans