Re: [Wylug-discuss] Linux in schools letter
On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 08:24:19AM +0100, Phillip Marsden at WYLUG wrote:
I agree with Dave Foster on this, as it echoes the point that I was trying to make several months ago, about the useability of Unix in general by non-technical users.
While Roger Whitaker is correct in that the Linux useability is improving rapidly, it must be remembered that teachers are not given the time to bring themselves up to speed with these new systems. They, like many in commerce, need a system which is easy to use NOW.
I don't think there is any such system. Any kind of computer or network of computers requires time and effort if you're going to do anything that is not trivial. Unfortunately, the government has thrown money at schools but none of it is being used to educate the teachers. Schools also seem loathe to spend money on technicians but will happily blow huge amounts on the very latest hardware.
Frank Shute makes the point that 'quite a few' schools are using Squid etc. It would be interesting to know how many of the 260+ schools in Leeds alone (not counting further education) are using Linux (in any form), never mind the many thousands in the rest of the country. The 'quite a few' probably means 'hardly any'.
According to Becta some 500 out of 27000 secondary schools are using open source in some way. I'd say that is `quite a few'. Remember, a couple of years ago businesses didn't even know what linux was, they certainly do now and a considerable number are making use of it, despite the much hyped `usabilty issues'. As more graduates leave universities, where a lot will have been exposed to it, a lot will get first jobs as network admins and technicians at secondary schools where they will make use of it. The number of schools using it is set to grow.
I assume that we are talking about schools, and not cash-rich colleges and universities? If so, the issue of getting Linux into schools is not just the Linux advocate's old mantra "lets get rid of Microsoft". There are other factors involved, namely cost and time.
What are the costs and time involved in pampering a MS based system to actually work?
Whilst Linux can be free, the machines are not. I assume that we are not going to ask 5 year-olds to use the Linux command line. In order to run a Linux gui at a reasonable speed a fast Pentium is required (my 500 MHz Toshiba is slow running the Linux gui). Fast Pentiums cost a lot of money,
This is nonsense with all due respect. I use a 300MHz Celeron as a workstation and performance is not an issue. I also use a 486 as a mail and news server and for masquerading/firewall. OK it wouldn't hack it on a network of any size but it could still be put to use.
Do not forget that schools cannot afford to use the 17/19/21 screens that some Linux enthusiasts (inside or outside universities) seem to think are normal. Pentiums use a lot of power. Apparently in many cases school computer rooms have had to be rewired because of the greater power consumption by the PC machines (more cost).
I visited a school where most of their machines were idle running screensavers, APM was something that they obviously hadn't even heard about. Their primary concern seemed to be about the kids altering the screensavers to something rude! This Celeron uses less than a quarter of the power with APM; what would their savings on electric have been over a year if they had heard of it?
The number of problems that arise in the WYLUG forum indicate that many problems do exist with the system. Imagine a school full of these things, and think what it would be like for the school technician to manage them. Teachers are not the only staff in schools with a heavy workload.
What about the technicians workload when the kids trash a few critical files on their Windows machines? At this school I visited they spent all their time just keeping the machines running, they didn't have any spare time to sort out services such as email.
I find the Linux gui complicated to use, so what chance a 5 year old? There is already a system in the schools which 5 year olds are perfectly happy with, and pick up with very little tuition. It is fast, but low on electrical power consumption, it does not need upgrading every school term or school year to cope with bloatware. I have a gui wordprocessor which is fully capable of writing a book (Douglas Adams wrote one of his first books with the earliest version) which fits on one floppy disk! It is the much-maligned Acorn (or RiscOS machines as they are now known). It rarely crashes, has the OS in ROM, is far more resistant to viruses than Microsoft, and reboots inside 15 seconds. Linux is available for it (ARM processor), but is unlikely to be used in schools as the native RiscOS is more than adequate.
This evidence that Acorns are still useful machines seems to be in contradiction to your earlier assertion that a feeble machine with a command line is of no practical use. BTW, you might have a wordprocessor on a floppy but I have a working linux system on a floppy - tomsrtnbt :)
I am a member of an Acorn group, and it appears from listening to members from all over the country (many of whom are in education) that the Acorn gui is the one preferred by not only teachers, but by pupils also. It is backed by a community that appears to know about educational requirements. The Linux community, whilst having some very talented people, is not likely to have this background.
Tell that to Roger!
If the Linux community is intent upon getting Linux into schools, perhaps it should look at the possibility of getting Linux installed onto the existing RiscOS machines, which are not costing anything to the schools.
I think most schools have more PCs than RiscOS machines nowadays. BTW, it's worth subscribing to the Suse school's list where there is plenty of informed discussion on this, send empty mail to: suse-linux-uk-schools-subscribe@suse.com -- Frank *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
I agree with Dave Foster on this, as it echoes the point that I was trying to make several months ago, about the useability of Unix in general by non-technical users.
Perfectly usable if it has been configured by a technical user first, but I agree, good technical backup is essential.
They ... need a system which is easy to use NOW. I don't think there is any such system.
Most systems are easy to use till they go wrong or need expansion. At that stage they all become difficult.
According to Becta some 500 out of 27000 secondary schools are using open source in some way.
and some in a big way.
What are the costs and time involved in pampering a MS based system to actually work?
and to keep working in the teeth of usage from male teenagers - that's the rub. Our 51 Acorn NCs average perhaps one visit each per year, so far only to fix mouse, keyboard or screen, or to upgrade RAM from the inadequate 8MB originally fitted. Our seventy discless X stations require a little more attention, partly because they are based on older hardware, maybe 15 minutes each per year. Our forty RISC OS machines need their network numbering reconfigured locally whenever we change the numbering system, which seems to average once a decade. Our thirty Windows machines seem to need an OS reload on average once every six months, plus substantial amounts of other attention.
Whilst Linux can be free, the machines are not.
Yes, you are right, it is a pity we have to pay money for the hardware. We pay about 25 pounds each for the base units, plus 30 for cheap monitors or 150 for good 17" ones. The result is generally between 100 and 250 pounds each for discless workstations capable of Netscape, StarOffice, GIMP & email. Plus expensive server machines of course - about fifty pounds-worth per station. And network infrastructure - again about fifty pounds-worth per station.
I assume that we are not going to ask 5 year-olds to use the Linux command line.
I agree, here it's not till they are 8, when they get a shell account accessible from VT100 terminal windows, and pine for their email. It's not till their teens that they get into things like altering their .cshrc files to customise their prompts (from 8 to 13 they have a menu shell front end, and few know anything of what they can get at behind it).
Linux gui at a reasonable speed a fast Pentium is required (my 500 MHz Toshiba is slow running the Linux gui). Fast Pentiums cost a lot of money
Yes, agreed, we are going to buy a couple of 750MHz servers to replace the two 500MHz Athlons that are currently sharing the load of 70 discless stations. We are also going to upgrade our central p166 server - it is definitely a bit strained handling over 1,000 shell logins, 1,200 emails and 12,000 intranet web requests each day.
I find the Linux gui complicated to use, so what chance a 5 year old?
They seem very confident with the Acorn one, and they graduate from that to KDE remarkably well.
This evidence that Acorns are still useful machines seems to be in contradiction to your earlier assertion that a feeble machine with a command line is of no practical use.
Feeble machines with command lines work very well as our main servers, anyway. The Acorns have an optional command line which most users never see.
If the Linux community is intent upon getting Linux into schools, perhaps it should look at the possibility of getting Linux installed onto the existing RiscOS machines, which are not costing anything to the schools.
I think most schools have more PCs than RiscOS machines nowadays.
which one presumes they chose because of the many fundamental design features that make these machines so appropriate both for schools and for networking. It's presumably never the case that a school has chosen these machines for reasons such as "everyone else has them" or "there's no alternative"? -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-820527 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
Point of information: I think there are about 5300 secondary schools, not 27000. And although it's hard to estimate how many are using open source, I know how many have bought a copy of SuSE Linux under the schools offer ... And then there are the ones which are using other Linux distributions, FreeBSD etc. On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Frank Shute wrote:
According to Becta some 500 out of 27000 secondary schools are using open source in some way.
-- Roger Whittaker SuSE Linux Ltd The Kinetic Centre Theobald Street Borehamwood Herts WD6 4PJ ---------------------- 020 8387 1482 ---------------------- roger@suse-linux.co.uk ----------------------
On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 08:24:19AM +0100, Phillip Marsden at WYLUG wrote:
I agree with Dave Foster on this, as it echoes the point that I was trying to make several months ago, about the useability of Unix in general by non-technical users.
While Roger Whitaker is correct in that the Linux useability is improving rapidly, it must be remembered that teachers are not given the time to bring themselves up to speed with these new systems. They, like many in commerce, need a system which is easy to use NOW.
I don't think there is any such system. Any kind of computer or network of computers requires time and effort if you're going to do anything that is not trivial. Unfortunately, the government has
One of the major myths here being that Windows is easy to set up. Let alone the claim that it is easy to use, something many staff here prove wrong.
thrown money at schools but none of it is being used to educate the teachers. Schools also seem loathe to spend money on technicians but
I'm not sure that this education should start with teachers, maybe it's just as needed with LEAs (and at Whitehall.)
will happily blow huge amounts on the very latest hardware.
This kind of purchasing does not originate from just inside schools.
Frank Shute makes the point that 'quite a few' schools are using Squid etc. It would be interesting to know how many of the 260+ schools in Leeds alone (not counting further education) are using Linux (in any form), never mind the many thousands in the rest of the country. The 'quite a few' probably means 'hardly any'.
According to Becta some 500 out of 27000 secondary schools are using open source in some way.
I'd say that is `quite a few'. Remember, a couple of years ago businesses didn't even know what linux was, they certainly do now
Wonder what the count of businesses using Linux but "don't even know what it is" stands at currently.
I assume that we are talking about schools, and not cash-rich colleges and universities? If so, the issue of getting Linux into schools is not just the Linux advocate's old mantra "lets get rid of Microsoft". There are other factors involved, namely cost and time.
What are the costs and time involved in pampering a MS based system to actually work?
Especially since no current MS platform is actually written to operate as a workstation in a way which is easily usable in a school. i.e. anything specific to a user stays on the server where it belongs. Novell or for that matter Sun were making products more suitable over a decade ago. The closest MS have come is to reinvent the X-terminal. On top of that there is the issue of licencing (and administering licences) which easily adds up to 25-30% of the cost of machines. Whilst software, such as MS Office, isn't really a good choice for education because it's too complex (for the staff.)
Whilst Linux can be free, the machines are not. I assume that we are not going to ask 5 year-olds to use the Linux command line. In order to run a Linux gui at a reasonable speed a fast Pentium is required (my 500 MHz Toshiba is slow running the Linux gui). Fast Pentiums cost a lot of money,
This is nonsense with all due respect. I use a 300MHz Celeron as a workstation and performance is not an issue. I also use a 486 as a
Linux detractor appear to have this obsession with command lines, ignoring that every version of Windows other than ME also has a command line. Indeed the difference between a Windows workstation and a Linux workstation is that the latter is about 150 or so quid cheaper.
mail and news server and for masquerading/firewall. OK it wouldn't hack it on a network of any size but it could still be put to use.
Do not forget that schools cannot afford to use the 17/19/21 screens that some Linux enthusiasts (inside or outside universities) seem to think are normal. Pentiums use a lot of power. Apparently in many cases school computer rooms have had to be rewired because of the greater power consumption by the PC machines (more cost).
I visited a school where most of their machines were idle running screensavers, APM was something that they obviously hadn't even heard about. Their primary concern seemed to be about the kids altering the screensavers to something rude! This Celeron uses less
It's not actually too hard to stop the settings of standard Windows screensavers being altered. Once you actually find out how the settings are stored, which isn't obvious. A bigger problem is from "click and go" websites some of which will subvert just about anything.
than a quarter of the power with APM; what would their savings on electric have been over a year if they had heard of it?
The original poster may have been confused about rewiring to a) add more sockets. b) fitting trips which will not be taken out by switched mode PSUs.
The number of problems that arise in the WYLUG forum indicate that many problems do exist with the system. Imagine a school full of these things, and think what it would be like for the school technician to manage them. Teachers are not the only staff in schools with a heavy workload.
What about the technicians workload when the kids trash a few
A few? Must only happen in a school where there is never any malicious behaviour.
critical files on their Windows machines? At this school I visited they spent all their time just keeping the machines running, they didn't have any spare time to sort out services such as email.
About the only thing I have found usable on for student machines is a web based system. Though few people appear to have heard of sqwebmail.
I find the Linux gui complicated to use, so what chance a 5 year old? There is already a system in the schools which 5 year olds are perfectly happy with, and pick up with very little tuition. It is fast, but low on electrical power consumption, it does not need upgrading every school term or school year to cope with bloatware. I have a gui wordprocessor which is fully capable of writing a book (Douglas Adams wrote one of his first books with the earliest version) which fits on one floppy disk! It is the much-maligned Acorn (or RiscOS machines as they are now known). It rarely crashes, has the OS in ROM, is far more resistant to viruses than Microsoft, and reboots inside 15 seconds. Linux is available for it (ARM processor), but is unlikely to be used in schools as the native RiscOS is more than adequate.
This evidence that Acorns are still useful machines seems to be in contradiction to your earlier assertion that a feeble machine with a command line is of no practical use.
Anyway there has been a RISCos style X Window manager available for over a year. There simply is no such thing as a "Linux GUI". -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
participants (4)
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Christopher Dawkins
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Frank Shute
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Mark Evans
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Roger Whittaker