I've been watching this tread with interest and wondering if we (those speaking) are preaching to the converted or are we just shouting in the wind. Which government/interested bodies other than Becta are reading this list? Roger, can you tell us please? Adrian Wells
Very few people are subscribed to this list apart from people in schools who are running Linux. There are a few and they are mostly LUG people who've offered to listen in and answer the odd question. I think the real question is how people can preach to the unconverted through other channels which are available to them (eg their contacts with LEA advisors, their membership of RM and other mailing lists, their contacts with colleagues in other institutions etc) On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, adrian.wells wrote:
I've been watching this tread with interest and wondering if we (those speaking) are preaching to the converted or are we just shouting in the wind. Which government/interested bodies other than Becta are reading this list?
Roger, can you tell us please?
Adrian Wells
-- Roger Whittaker SuSE Linux Ltd The Kinetic Centre Theobald Street Borehamwood Herts WD6 4PJ ---------------------- 020 8387 1482 ---------------------- roger@suse-linux.co.uk ----------------------
Roger Whittaker
Very few people are subscribed to this list apart from people in schools who are running Linux. There are a few and they are mostly LUG people who've offered to listen in and answer the odd question.
I think the real question is how people can preach to the unconverted through other channels which are available to them (eg their contacts with LEA advisors, their membership of RM and other mailing lists, their contacts with colleagues in other institutions etc)
It really isn't about proselytising at all - here am I, a committed Linux user at home, who would love to deploy Linux at school, but who doesn't know how. I have asked for help right, left and centre, but apart from rather vague responses I have nothing concrete. I have posted here, privately, in the uk.comp.os.linux newsgroups, other mailings lists and elsewhere. If I can't move forward, then those who know and care little about Linux will never be brought on board. If SuSE, or some other company, were to set up some sort of support service maybe we could actually do something. I gained all my knowledge of a stand-alone Linux system from tinkering at home. I really couldn't learn about Linux networking by tinkering with the school network! Linux advocates with the necessary skills should put their experience to practical use - it is of no use shouting about it from the rooftops. -- Phillip Deackes Using Storm Linux 2000
If SuSE, or some other company, were to set up some sort of support service maybe we could actually do something. I gained all my knowledge of a stand-alone Linux system from tinkering at home. I really couldn't learn about Linux networking by tinkering with the school network!
The main problem is to ensure an adequate support service without rocketing costs, as people actually able to solve all the problems are very rare - and problems that need a site visit are bound to be expensive anyway. I reckon that one engineer could properly support a dozen Unix schools, so each would need to pay about 4000 pounds a year. Schools would need their own technician to sort out the simple problems, of course. About 80% of the support could be done remotely. The related problem is that all computer systems fail from time to time. If your standard Win system fails you can blame it on Bill, go home, mow the lawn, watch TV, and wait a few days till it's fixed by the school suppliers. If you have argued for a Linux system and installed it yourself in the teeth of opposition from others who say Win is better, then when it fails it's up to you to desert your family and spend the weekend fixing it. Of course, it doesn't fail often, but when it does it's you that are in the soup. It would be well worth it if the savings the school made on the system appeared in your salary! -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-820527 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
hi all (again) the debate taking place here on the suse linux list is interesting and potential far reaching (beyond the scope of the list, can i access the archive, someone send them to the TES Online or Telegraph)...., some further observations 1. Support. The support model for Open Source & Linux is the real 'leap-of-faith' the majority of IT managers/workers in the UK. They do not see it as the easiest option and it scares them. The main benefit of support contracts/ third party organisation running your systems is that you have 'someone else' down the line to pass the blame on to, especially if you've paid lots of money for it. If an Open Source solution fails (which is less likely) you've got to stand up and be counted. The key skills are knowing bash, Linux device drivers etc its knowing how to get hold of great resources on the web (whose using IMP web-based mail by the way ?). Acorns did educational IT harm, as many people (including me) felt that they gone up the wrong tree and most schools want to up the right tree with the corporate world. 2. Advocacy. The K12Linux list in the States is great, and has regular postings which include things like 'how do I persaude my teachers that Word isn;t the only solution'. Good case studies is where Suse, Redhat and the other Linux distributors come in, providing solid evidence to Open Source / Linux working in the School environment. Becta would love to evaluate more Linux servers (we've already done Powys) and Linux/KDE workstations. 3. United Front. I'm a Mandrake user, i like it, got RPM etc etc, but don't get hung up on the different distributions, get hung up on overall politics of free speech and getting what you want from your IT resource, not just what people are willing to sell you. You will also have to buy some closed source software (I agree with Eric Raymond on this one), for niche applications, SIMs is currently one unfortunate example. If anybody wants a company to support their Open Source/Linux solution for their school, we are aware of at least three who will do it for you. And to finish, some maths..... Microsoft are sending / have sent a note reminding school Heads and Governors about their responsibility for correct licensing, to around 18000 primarys and 6000 secondary's in the UK. At educational rates, thats a minimum of around £750,000 of OS licenses alone (i guess). Anybody want to work out the productivity tools, content, admin tools etc etc (oh and by the way, around £35m on ISDN2-based ISP access each year!) regards Malcolm ------------------------------- Dr Malcolm Herbert Head of Technology R&D, Becta 02476 847126 Mob: 07801 612438 ------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Dawkins [mailto:cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk] Sent: 10 July 2000 19:22 To: Phillip Deackes Cc: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] OSE Conference
If SuSE, or some other company, were to set up some sort of support service maybe we could actually do something. I gained all my knowledge of a stand-alone Linux system from tinkering at home. I really couldn't learn about Linux networking by tinkering with the school network!
The main problem is to ensure an adequate support service without rocketing costs, as people actually able to solve all the problems are very rare - and problems that need a site visit are bound to be expensive anyway. I reckon that one engineer could properly support a dozen Unix schools, so each would need to pay about 4000 pounds a year. Schools would need their own technician to sort out the simple problems, of course. About 80% of the support could be done remotely. The related problem is that all computer systems fail from time to time. If your standard Win system fails you can blame it on Bill, go home, mow the lawn, watch TV, and wait a few days till it's fixed by the school suppliers. If you have argued for a Linux system and installed it yourself in the teeth of opposition from others who say Win is better, then when it fails it's up to you to desert your family and spend the weekend fixing it. Of course, it doesn't fail often, but when it does it's you that are in the soup. It would be well worth it if the savings the school made on the system appeared in your salary! -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-820527 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
On 10 Jul, Malcolm
web-based mail by the way ?). Acorns did educational IT harm, as many people (including me) felt that they gone up the wrong tree and most schools want to up the right tree with the corporate world.
Can't let that pass without comment. As an Acorn user I could produce numerous examples of the benefit my pupils have gained by learning to use a variety of platforms and fully appreciate that IT is *not* MS windows alone. In fact it is a positive advantage to be using equipment which is not the same as the games platform they use at home. I think this is wandering off topic so I'll end there. Dave Williams
On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 08:24:43PM +0100, Malcolm wrote:
the debate taking place here on the suse linux list is interesting and potential far reaching (beyond the scope of the list, can i access the archive, someone send them to the TES Online or Telegraph)...., some further observations
1. Support. The support model for Open Source & Linux is the real 'leap-of-faith' the majority of IT managers/workers in the UK. They do not see it as the easiest option and it scares them. The main benefit of support contracts/ third party organisation running your systems is that you have 'someone else' down the line to pass the blame on to, especially if you've paid lots of money for it. If an Open Source solution fails (which is less likely) you've got to stand up and be counted. The key skills are knowing bash, Linux device drivers etc its knowing how to get hold of great resources on the web (whose using IMP web-based mail by the way ?). Acorns did educational IT harm, as many people (including me) felt that they gone up the wrong tree and most schools want to up the right tree with the corporate world.
At present there are not enough companies supporting linux but I hope to do my bit to change that. There is no reason why the support model for open source software should be too much different from proprietry software. The problem is that the companies and individuals who offer support for linux systems are rushed off their feet. There's also a skills shortage of individuals who are familiar with linux, it's only now that there are young people coming out from university who have had hands on experience. Hopefully, things will continue to shift from being quite so Windows-centric. But progress is being made - only a couple of years ago linux wasn't on anybody's agenda apart from a hard-core of developers/users.
2. Advocacy. The K12Linux list in the States is great, and has regular postings which include things like 'how do I persaude my teachers that Word isn;t the only solution'. Good case studies is where Suse, Redhat and the other Linux distributors come in, providing solid evidence to Open Source / Linux working in the School environment. Becta would love to evaluate more Linux servers (we've already done Powys) and Linux/KDE workstations.
How do you mean evaluate more linux servers & workstations? Do you just turn up to see them in action and what they're doing?
3. United Front. I'm a Mandrake user, i like it, got RPM etc etc, but don't get hung up on the different distributions, get hung up on overall politics of free speech and getting what you want from your IT resource, not just what people are willing to sell you. You will also have to buy some closed source software (I agree with Eric Raymond on this one), for niche applications, SIMs is currently one unfortunate example.
I agree. You have to be pragmatic and use what's best for the job.
If anybody wants a company to support their Open Source/Linux solution for their school, we are aware of at least three who will do it for you.
How do I get on the list? I'm going to start committing my business full-time to putting linux/open source into schools in the autumn.
And to finish, some maths.....
Microsoft are sending / have sent a note reminding school Heads and Governors about their responsibility for correct licensing, to around 18000 primarys and 6000 secondary's in the UK. At educational rates, thats a minimum of around 750,000 of OS licenses alone (i guess). Anybody want to work out the productivity tools, content, admin tools etc etc (oh and by the way, around 35m on ISDN2-based ISP access each year!)
This huge waste of money can't be the best possible solution to schools need for software. -- Frank Shute *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance.demon.co.uk/
1. Support. The support model for Open Source & Linux is the real 'leap-of-faith' the majority of IT managers/workers in the UK. They do not see it as the easiest option and it scares them. The main benefit of support contracts/ third party organisation running your systems is that you have 'someone else' down the line to pass the blame on to, especially if you've
N.B. this is what most of the "support" model for Windows appears to be about. The ability to buck pass. When it comes to actually getting support in the sense of actually *fixing* a problem then this model fails badly. (Often expensivly too.) Being able to blame others might work in the commercial world it dosn't help much when kids (and teachers) are screaming for something to be made to work.
paid lots of money for it. If an Open Source solution fails (which is less likely) you've got to stand up and be counted. The key skills are knowing bash, Linux device drivers etc its knowing how to get hold of great resources on the web (whose using IMP web-based mail by the way ?). Acorns
Becuase open souce "support" is about *solutions* rather than *excuses*.
did educational IT harm, as many people (including me) felt that they gone up the wrong tree and most schools want to up the right tree with the corporate world.
Even if this was desirable schools simply cannot afford to play the game of "update everything every two to three years". Many commercial organisations can't either for that matter. What's funny is that an antique (in computer terms) A3000 can still be a better tool for producing a useful piece of work in one lesson than the latest Windows PC.
2. Advocacy. The K12Linux list in the States is great, and has regular postings which include things like 'how do I persaude my teachers that Word isn;t the only solution'. Good case studies is where Suse, Redhat and the other Linux distributors come in, providing solid evidence to Open Source / Linux working in the School environment. Becta would love to evaluate more Linux servers (we've already done Powys) and Linux/KDE workstations.
So when are Becta coming down :)
3. United Front. I'm a Mandrake user, i like it, got RPM etc etc, but don't get hung up on the different distributions, get hung up on overall politics of free speech and getting what you want from your IT resource, not just what people are willing to sell you. You will also have to buy some closed source software (I agree with Eric Raymond on this one), for niche applications, SIMs is currently one unfortunate example.
A very unfortunate example. Capita have taken a DOS based package which worked fairly well. Then replaced bits with Windows programs which can't do half the things the old programs could do and take 3 times as long to do essential tasks.
On Mon 10 Jul, Malcolm wrote:
Acorns did educational IT harm, as many people (including me) felt that they gone up the wrong tree and most schools want to up the right tree with the corporate world.
Rubbish. Everywhere I look, with a very few honourable exceptions,standards of ICT in schools are both dire and falling. Over the last 2 or 3 years there has been a substantial fall in levels of knowledge of principles, which exactly mirrors the rise in Windows and the mesmeric infatuation with Office 97. What has a school to do with teaching which buttons to click on an office productivity (?) suite? Some of the examination boards, such as AQA, are bravely standing against this and calling for standards and principles. Most of their questions are far better answered with a _choice_ of hardware and software including Acorn/RiscOS. Our pupils unquestionably prefer the RiscOS software for the coursework proper but frequently write up at home on Word. Linux is a server OS of the first order. Sadly, all it seems to be used for at the moment to to enable schools to follow the above infatuation at a lesser cost. Do we honstly think that Linux is suitable as a desktop OS in education at the present time? What native software is recommended for educational use? -- Martin Devon Stonar
On Mon 10 Jul, Malcolm wrote: ----snipped
resources on the web (whose using IMP web-based mail by the way ?). Acorns did educational IT harm, as many people (including me) felt that they gone up the wrong tree and most schools want to up the right tree with the corporate world.
I'm sorry I can't let that slip past me.... 1st: Any pupil leaving school today should have had some 'Windows' experience. However, I don't believe that ALL their experience should be MS Windows. To get on my band box 'We are educational institutions, not training institutions' Why don't Colleges and Universtities teach MCSE skills rather than GNVQ and degrees? (Cost of course would be considerably more....due to the cost of MCSE trainers...) Those who know me, will realise that I am not a blind supporter of Acorn, and I have been pretty fierce with my criticism of them going back many years... However, I could teach 'Computing' and quite a lot of 'IT skills' today using ZX81, or BBC B computers. No, there would be some tasks that would be better done with more modern machines - and some that would be impossible - but not many! The basics of programming - modular code, variables, loops, conditions etc are no more easily taught and learnt on an Acorn, PC or Linux. The appearance of Windows311 with different icons in different positions is completely different from W95 interface. Are you saying that schools that used W311 from 1990 to 1995 were up the wrong tree (because the tree hadn't yet been invented)? IT is very poor in many schools (read the inspection reports) and the MS/RM marketing machine made this an Acorn/MS issue. In fact the issue has always been one of the lack of expertise and staff. There are still some schools today (not ours - for what we believe are good reasons) that use entirely Acorn machines - and the IT is simply exemplary in every way - and their results prove it. With the potential break up of MS I suspect we will see a number of different 'desktops' appearing common as LINUX run MS applications using WINE, Acorn using Citrix, Litestep and BeOS etc. MS Office is a great product - but whether or not Star Office couldn't do everything that's required and save a great deal of money is one which BECTA should be actively investigating and promoting. I am particularly concerned about the MS licencing scheme which demands ALL computers in the school to be licenced for every qualifying MS application regardless or not of whether Linux or BEOS or any future OS will run on them - as this 'locks' schools into MS products in a rather different way that schools were 'locked' into Acorn products. -- Alan Davies Head of Computing Birkenhead School
Phillip Deackes wrote...
It really isn't about proselytising at all - here am I, a committed LINUX user at home, who would love to deploy LINUX at school, but who doesn't know how. I have asked for help right, left and centre, but apart from rather vague responses I have nothing concrete. I have posted here, privately, in the UK.comp.os.LINUX newsgroups, other mailings lists and elsewhere. If I can't move forward, then those who know and care little about LINUX will never be brought on board.
I was going to start by saying, "I am using LINUX at home and I'm a convert
but..." The truth is that I was never in the other camp but had always been
looking for a workable cheap alternative. LINUX reminds me of the time,
several years after I built my first home computer (HEX keyboard and 1K of
(static) ram) when the UK ruled the world when it came to home PCs & writing
software, and people would ask, "but what can you do with it", I never gave
them the true answer which was "nothing useful". You could sort of word
process, sort of use spread sheets, sort of switch lights and motors on and
off, sort of draw things, sort of run AI programs, you certainly couldn't
impress anyone - other than other geeks, then a certain BG (allegedly) stole
DOS from someone, and out of the mire came a system that was actually of
some use to business and the real world. LINUX takes me back to those heady
days of home computers, loads of fun, cocking a snoop at everyone, but
actually of little use to the general public or general business - why?
Well, Two reasons 1) it's too techie - today, people expect to shake it out
of the box, plug it in and switch it on - sorry, but that's the way it is.
2) there's not enough suitable (open source/free) software out there yet.
Both of these problems have hit Philip and many many others. Yes of course
you can do all these wonderful things, and people have, to varying degrees,
but at a cost.
No one in management (without technical expertise) is ever going to put his
arse on the line and plump for something that's free (must be a catch)
against something that's over priced (must be great). After all, if NT falls
over and the payroll is late, he is blameless 'cus half the world has also
paid through the nose for the same kit, and they MUST be right, mustn't
they, because they wouldn't waste money?
Philip is right, what we need are case histories, actual examples of how to
do things, but not with Mickey-mouse bits of software (I don't mean that the
software is Mickey-mouse in it's execution (pun intended) but in it's
suitability, 15 different e-mail programs is of no use, I want one that is
smooth, seamless and effortless) - "we give our kids crappywrite for
word-processing and if they don't like it tough" ain't good
enough, sorry but we need appropriate, world-class software and it's a fact
of life that Word is that [never yet seen WordPerfect work properly on a
windows platform (may be great on LINUX)]. Adding users in bulk has to be
seamless. As much as we hate MS, RM etc their stuff works now, maybe not as
we would like it, or at a cost that is acceptable, but it works.
The sad truth is that world-class software, that meets international
standards of exchange and the demands of business comes at a price - and
business WILL pay that price because they believe that they are paying for
reliability and protection. High prices comfort them, they charge high
prices for their goods and expect to pay high prices for other peoples -
Zero prices make then uneasy, it implies that maybe their goods could be
supplied for nothing - LINUX just puts spanners in their works! - now, if we
were living in China...
So how is LINUX going to assure management of it's capability, and convince
business that it will not mean the end of the (capitalist) world?
The truth is that LINUX doesn't care, it's not in competition with any other
OS. It's only motivation is the ego of it's writers and that of it's
acolytes.
(sorry if this is disjointed, I was networking someone's machines over the
phone while writing! - see no time to learn all the fancy bits that LINUX
has to offer!)
PS. I'm installing a LINUX server into one of our prep schools over the
summer! :-)
Kind Regards
Adrian Wells
P.S. Please use
Adrian-Wells@175-NBR.freeserve.co.uk
as the preferred address.
---------------------------------------------------------
Contact me on...
adrian-wells@175-NBR.freeserve.co.uk
adrian.wells@sidcot.org.uk
awells@1way.co.uk
ICQ 10436503
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Deackes"
On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 11:17:31PM +0100, Adrian Wells wrote:
Phillip Deackes wrote...
It really isn't about proselytising at all - here am I, a committed LINUX user at home, who would love to deploy LINUX at school, but who doesn't know how. I have asked for help right, left and centre, but apart from rather vague responses I have nothing concrete. I have posted here, privately, in the UK.comp.os.LINUX newsgroups, other mailings lists and elsewhere. If I can't move forward, then those who know and care little about LINUX will never be brought on board.
<snipped>
LINUX takes me back to those heady days of home computers, loads of fun, cocking a snoop at everyone, but actually of little use to the general public or general business - why? Well, Two reasons 1) it's too techie - today, people expect to shake it out of the box, plug it in and switch it on - sorry, but that's the way it is. 2) there's not enough suitable (open source/free) software out there yet. Both of these problems have hit Philip and many many others. Yes of course you can do all these wonderful things, and people have, to varying degrees, but at a cost.
Responding to your two points in particular: 1) Powerful networking software IS techie. Poor networking software is sold to punters as a simple, straightforward solution to a complex problem. I'm sorry but in the *real* world beyond the advertising hype there is no such thing. 2) Just not true. StarOffice is free, Netscape is free, Samba is free, qmail is free..... You're right there is a cost but exorbitant licensing costs is not one of them nor is expensive hardware, but buying some decent support is.
No one in management (without technical expertise) is ever going to put his arse on the line and plump for something that's free (must be a catch) against something that's over priced (must be great). After all, if NT falls over and the payroll is late, he is blameless 'cus half the world has also paid through the nose for the same kit, and they MUST be right, mustn't they, because they wouldn't waste money?
Management has yet to understand that it has to invest in people; investing in crumby software, expensive hardware and even crumbier employees is a waste of money. Management are beginning to realise it...the problem is that they're like a herd of dinosaurs with their very small brains, slow reflexes and a rather pathetic follow the leader attitude. Now large companies like IBM are getting behind linux they are beginning to sit up and pay attention. Little more than 6 months ago the IT manager of a FTSE 100 company dismissed linux as a fad that had no place in the business environment, he just wouldn't say such a thing today.
Philip is right, what we need are case histories, .....
There won't be any case histories until managers/headmasters realise that there needs to be a paradigm shift from the old `spend lots of money on software/hardware approach'. At the moment, they're unable to contemplate spending a significant portion of their budget on either technical staff who know what they're doing or outsourcing their IT requirements to anybody other than RM.
actual examples of how to do things, but not with Mickey-mouse bits of software (I don't mean that the software is Mickey-mouse in it's execution (pun intended) but in it's suitability, 15 different e-mail programs is of no use,
Just because there are 15 different email clients doesn't mean that you have to use them all nor all the different MTAs for that matter.
I want one that is smooth, seamless and effortless) - "we give our kids crappywrite for word-processing and if they don't like it tough" ain't good enough, sorry but we need appropriate, world-class software and it's a fact of life that Word is that [never yet seen WordPerfect work properly on a windows platform (may be great on LINUX)].
Word is NOT a world class piece of software - TeX is. Wordperfect works fine on Linux and Windows, my mother has used it for years on both...and dos; sounds like you're having problems with the platform.
Adding users in bulk has to be seamless. As much as we hate MS, RM etc their stuff works now, maybe not as we would like it, or at a cost that is acceptable, but it works.
The cost is not acceptable. Millions of pounds of public money is being wasted on 2nd rate software - to my mind that's a scandal of huge proportions. As regards adding users, I can add users in bulk to a system courtesy of a script and an appropriately configured skeleton directory - seamlessly.
The sad truth is that world-class software, that meets international standards of exchange and the demands of business comes at a price -
You obviously haven't been using linux for very long or you would realise that world class software does not necessarily come at a price. What's `international standards of exchange'? Do you mean the ability to exchange and read files? If so Microsoft software meets none of them.
and business WILL pay that price because they believe that they are paying for reliability and protection.
You're right, they *believe* that they're paying for reliability, protection, support etc. But they get nothing of the sort of course.
High prices comfort them, they charge high prices for their goods and expect to pay high prices for other peoples - Zero prices make then uneasy, it implies that maybe their goods could be supplied for nothing - LINUX just puts spanners in their works! - now, if we were living in China...
So how is LINUX going to assure management of it's capability, and convince business that it will not mean the end of the (capitalist) world?
As I mentioned, they're herd animals and they'll follow once they realise that the sky wont fall in on them. We just have to keep up the pressure. I and others are not proposing to end the capitalist world, I just want to make a decent living out of linux.
PS. I'm installing a LINUX server into one of our prep schools over the summer! :-)
Good luck! If you need a hand and you're anywhere near me, let me know. -- Frank Shute *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance.demon.co.uk/
Hi, Frank Shute wrote:
On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 11:17:31PM +0100, Adrian Wells wrote:
Phillip Deackes wrote... No one in management (without technical expertise) is ever going to put his arse on the line and plump for something that's free (must be a catch) against something that's over priced (must be great). After all, if NT falls over and the payroll is late, he is blameless 'cus half the world has also paid through the nose for the same kit, and they MUST be right, mustn't they, because they wouldn't waste money?
Management has yet to understand that it has to invest in people; investing in crumby software, expensive hardware and even crumbier employees is a waste of money. Management are beginning to realise it...the problem is that they're like a herd of dinosaurs with their very small brains, slow reflexes and a rather pathetic follow the leader attitude.
You have to give "Management" some sympathy though, in the same way that "no-one ever got fired for buying IBM" in the same way "no-one ever got fired for buying Microsoft"..... however the point to make is that no-one ever got promoted for buying Microsoft either.
Philip is right, what we need are case histories, .....
There won't be any case histories until managers/headmasters realise that there needs to be a paradigm shift from the old `spend lots of money on software/hardware approach'.
At the moment, they're unable to contemplate spending a significant portion of their budget on either technical staff who know what they're doing or outsourcing their IT requirements to anybody other than RM.
I forget the name of the gentleman in charge but even my goldfish like memory knows about Powys Council, and I don't really follow the news-wires, even the Linux ones. So if "Management" wants to get on the map, there's an incentive.
actual examples of how to do things, but not with Mickey-mouse bits of software (I don't mean that the software is Mickey-mouse in it's execution (pun intended) but in it's suitability, 15 different e-mail programs is of no use,
Just because there are 15 different email clients doesn't mean that you have to use them all nor all the different MTAs for that matter.
Good point, sendmail is a very powerful tool, in the same way that a Chieftain tank is a very powerful vehicle. However, if you want to go to the shops, you tend to drive something smaller - no reason to try and deal with a big scary MTA if something smaller and simpler will do the job you need. That's the beauty of Linux / Unix / etc., there is always more than one way of solving a problem.
I want one that is smooth, seamless and effortless) - "we give our kids crappywrite for word-processing and if they don't like it tough" ain't good enough, sorry but we need appropriate, world-class software and it's a fact of life that Word is that [never yet seen WordPerfect work properly on a windows platform (may be great on LINUX)].
Word is NOT a world class piece of software - TeX is. Wordperfect works fine on Linux and Windows, my mother has used it for years on both...and dos; sounds like you're having problems with the platform.
Haven't used TeX but I'd just like to second the point about Word. As will all Linux mailing lists it's best to avoid turning it into a gripe about "our friends from Redmond", however due to lack of backwards and forwards compatability with Word I wouldn't call it "world class".
The sad truth is that world-class software, that meets international standards of exchange and the demands of business comes at a price -
You obviously haven't been using linux for very long or you would realise that world class software does not necessarily come at a price. What's `international standards of exchange'? Do you mean the ability to exchange and read files? If so Microsoft software meets none of them.
Proof of the universal capability and strength of Linux / Unix can be found from the ISP arena, if anyone needs the elusive "five nines reliability" they do. <snip>
So how is LINUX going to assure management of it's capability, and convince business that it will not mean the end of the (capitalist) world?
As I mentioned, they're herd animals and they'll follow once they realise that the sky wont fall in on them. We just have to keep up the pressure. I and others are not proposing to end the capitalist world, I just want to make a decent living out of linux.
Heh, sorry, but I think a lot of us are hoping to make a decent living out of Linux, hopefully a very decent living. It's just a case that there's a "win win" attitude, I can put some effort in for nothing to help out other people, and in return other people will help me when the opportunity comes. You don't expect to put in a great deal of effort for no return, you just don't charge for everything by the hour.
PS. I'm installing a LINUX server into one of our prep schools over the summer! :-)
Good luck! If you need a hand and you're anywhere near me, let me know.
Actually Phil, you're local to me aren't you? -- High heels are a device invented by a woman who was tired of being kissed on the forehead. http://www.rwalker.com/cgi-bin/fortune.sh
Hi, I think this has mentioned before but not specifically highlighted ( apologies if I'm mistaken ), due the number of schools on the list and their censorship software it is unadviseable for posts to contained "banned or potentially offensive text". I don't know the details but I suspect said words in this thread were: ar5e ki55ed Spelt incorrectly, but you know what I mean. So watch your language people, or learn some obsfucation ( pr0n - pee-ar-zero-en is so commonly used now it's a word itself ;) -- In my house there's this light switch that doesn't do anything. Every so often I would flick it on and off just to check. Yesterday, I got a call from a woman in Madagascar. She said, "Cut it out." -- Steven Wright
Hi,
I think this has mentioned before but not specifically highlighted ( apologies if I'm mistaken ), due the number of schools on the list and their censorship software it is unadviseable for posts to contained
Actually the problem appears to be one specific piece of broken software run by RM. Which given this history of such software (and the cowboys who typically produce it) may well be objecting to any mention of RM which is not "worship". More specifically it is a very bad idea to censor by content anything directed to someone in a system admin role. How then can users complain about being sent abusive email? [snip the rest which explains how to deliberatly attempt to circumvent such software] -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
hi firstly, i would apologise to all Acorn Users, i now know where you all are :-) and also, 'no headteacher got fired for buying RM' Malc ------------------------------- Dr Malcolm Herbert Head of Technology R&D, Becta 02476 847126 Mob: 07801 612438 ------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Nick Drage [mailto:nick-drage@gmx.ch] Sent: 11 July 2000 16:43 To: Schools List Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] OSE Conference Hi, Frank Shute wrote:
On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 11:17:31PM +0100, Adrian Wells wrote:
Phillip Deackes wrote... No one in management (without technical expertise) is ever going to put
his
arse on the line and plump for something that's free (must be a catch) against something that's over priced (must be great). After all, if NT falls over and the payroll is late, he is blameless 'cus half the world has also paid through the nose for the same kit, and they MUST be right, mustn't they, because they wouldn't waste money?
Management has yet to understand that it has to invest in people; investing in crumby software, expensive hardware and even crumbier employees is a waste of money. Management are beginning to realise it...the problem is that they're like a herd of dinosaurs with their very small brains, slow reflexes and a rather pathetic follow the leader attitude.
You have to give "Management" some sympathy though, in the same way that "no-one ever got fired for buying IBM" in the same way "no-one ever got fired for buying Microsoft"..... however the point to make is that no-one ever got promoted for buying Microsoft either.
Philip is right, what we need are case histories, .....
There won't be any case histories until managers/headmasters realise that there needs to be a paradigm shift from the old `spend lots of money on software/hardware approach'.
At the moment, they're unable to contemplate spending a significant portion of their budget on either technical staff who know what they're doing or outsourcing their IT requirements to anybody other than RM.
I forget the name of the gentleman in charge but even my goldfish like memory knows about Powys Council, and I don't really follow the news-wires, even the Linux ones. So if "Management" wants to get on the map, there's an incentive.
actual examples of how to do things, but not with Mickey-mouse bits of software (I don't mean that the software is Mickey-mouse in it's execution (pun intended) but in it's suitability, 15 different e-mail programs is of no use,
Just because there are 15 different email clients doesn't mean that you have to use them all nor all the different MTAs for that matter.
Good point, sendmail is a very powerful tool, in the same way that a Chieftain tank is a very powerful vehicle. However, if you want to go to the shops, you tend to drive something smaller - no reason to try and deal with a big scary MTA if something smaller and simpler will do the job you need. That's the beauty of Linux / Unix / etc., there is always more than one way of solving a problem.
I want one that is smooth, seamless and effortless) - "we give our kids crappywrite for word-processing and if they don't like it tough" ain't good enough, sorry but we need appropriate, world-class software and it's a fact of life that Word is that [never yet seen WordPerfect work properly on a windows platform (may be great on LINUX)].
Word is NOT a world class piece of software - TeX is. Wordperfect works fine on Linux and Windows, my mother has used it for years on both...and dos; sounds like you're having problems with the platform.
Haven't used TeX but I'd just like to second the point about Word. As will all Linux mailing lists it's best to avoid turning it into a gripe about "our friends from Redmond", however due to lack of backwards and forwards compatability with Word I wouldn't call it "world class".
The sad truth is that world-class software, that meets international standards of exchange and the demands of business comes at a price -
You obviously haven't been using linux for very long or you would realise that world class software does not necessarily come at a price. What's `international standards of exchange'? Do you mean the ability to exchange and read files? If so Microsoft software meets none of them.
Proof of the universal capability and strength of Linux / Unix can be found from the ISP arena, if anyone needs the elusive "five nines reliability" they do. <snip>
So how is LINUX going to assure management of it's capability, and convince business that it will not mean the end of the (capitalist) world?
As I mentioned, they're herd animals and they'll follow once they realise that the sky wont fall in on them. We just have to keep up the pressure. I and others are not proposing to end the capitalist world, I just want to make a decent living out of linux.
Heh, sorry, but I think a lot of us are hoping to make a decent living out of Linux, hopefully a very decent living. It's just a case that there's a "win win" attitude, I can put some effort in for nothing to help out other people, and in return other people will help me when the opportunity comes. You don't expect to put in a great deal of effort for no return, you just don't charge for everything by the hour.
PS. I'm installing a LINUX server into one of our prep schools over the summer! :-)
Good luck! If you need a hand and you're anywhere near me, let me know.
Actually Phil, you're local to me aren't you? -- High heels are a device invented by a woman who was tired of being kissed on the forehead. http://www.rwalker.com/cgi-bin/fortune.sh
As I mentioned, they're herd animals and they'll follow once they realise that the sky wont fall in on them. We just have to keep up the pressure. I and others are not proposing to end the capitalist world, I just want to make a decent living out of linux.
Heh, sorry, but I think a lot of us are hoping to make a decent living out of Linux, hopefully a very decent living. It's just a case that there's a "win win" attitude, I can put some effort in for nothing to help out other people, and in return other people will help me when the opportunity comes. You don't expect to put in a great deal of effort for no return, you just don't charge for everything by the hour.
I work in North Wiltshire and will pay ! Any offers ? Bob H
Roger Whittaker did ponder briefly and then scribed, On Mon, 10 Jul 2000:
Very few people are subscribed to this list apart from people in schools who are running Linux. There are a few and they are mostly LUG people who've offered to listen in and answer the odd question.
I think the real question is how people can preach to the unconverted through other channels which are available to them (eg their contacts with LEA advisors, their membership of RM and other mailing lists, their contacts with colleagues in other institutions etc)
Well, there are a few of us posting to uk.education.schools-it, Philip and James being the two most often posters besides myself. We may be making a bit of progress, I've been slapped down by educational users of M$ Office 2K for saying I didn't like it. Suppose M$ must be like toothache, so long as you don't realise its there, it doesn't hurt. :-) I've managed to get 2 other teachers to try. 1 is just about over the worst hump now, he's got his modem and display sorted out. He's using Mandrake 7.0. I'm working on converting him to SuSE ;-) And the other's gone strangely silent - guess he hasn't managed to get his modem working yet. Still, we'll get there. eventually. We just have to keep plugging away. -- paul hornshaw
On Mon 10 Jul, paul wrote:
Roger Whittaker did ponder briefly and then scribed, On Mon, 10 Jul 2000:
Very few people are subscribed to this list apart from people in schools who are running Linux. There are a few and they are mostly LUG people who've offered to listen in and answer the odd question.
I think the real question is how people can preach to the unconverted through other channels which are available to them (eg their contacts with LEA advisors, their membership of RM and other mailing lists, their contacts with colleagues in other institutions etc)
Well, there are a few of us posting to uk.education.schools-it, Philip and James being the two most often posters besides myself.
I just received a set of discs containing the draft handbook for the Independent Schools Inspectorate - badly written and presented as Word files. I have protested strongly, stating that a secret proprietary format is unacceptable and prejudicial to their claim to impartiality. -- Martin Devon Stonar
Adrian (and the others) I am definitely not one of the converted and I read this group. I am a reasonably competent ICT teacher/coordinator (I don't mind fiddling with various 'behind the scenes' elements, I've written the odd bit of software etc) but I am intimidated by Linux. I have it installed on a separate drive that I purchased just for that purpose and it works - I've not done anything with it yet. I am worried that everything will be more difficult to do on Linux than on Windows even if Linux does it better! I'd like to use Linux (Navaho?) for our email/web proxy in September but I don't believe that anyone can actually deliver and support so will probably plump for back office/exchange server on our existing NT server. Can anyone deliver the promise of making it work ? (obviously I'd pay for this) Do SuSe / Navaho offer this service ? Bob
From: adrian.wells [mailto:adrian.wells@sidcot.org.uk] I've been watching this tread with interest and wondering if we (those speaking) are preaching to the converted or are we just shouting in the wind. Which government/interested bodies other than Becta are reading this list?
Roger, can you tell us please?
Adrian Wells
On Mon 10 Jul, Bob Harding wrote:
I'd like to use Linux (Navaho?) for our email/web proxy in September but I don't believe that anyone can actually deliver and support so will probably plump for back office/exchange server on our existing NT server.
Can anyone deliver the promise of making it work ? (obviously I'd pay for this) Do SuSe / Navaho offer this service ?
We use Navaho under Linux. It is highly reliable and support from Navaho is immediate and free, either by phone or email. -- Martin Devon Stonar
Adrian (and the others)
I am definitely not one of the converted and I read this group. I am a reasonably competent ICT teacher/coordinator (I don't mind fiddling with various 'behind the scenes' elements, I've written the odd bit of software etc) but I am intimidated by Linux.
If you written software, you'll love Linux. Its developing environment is excellent. Any language, for free :)
I have it installed on a separate drive that I purchased just for that purpose and it works - I've not done anything with it yet. I am worried that everything will be more difficult to do on Linux than on Windows even if Linux does it better!
I'd like to use Linux (Navaho?) for our email/web proxy in September but I don't believe that anyone can actually deliver and support so will
Whats the harm in trying what you would normally do in windows, in linux. Well at least the less important things, such as dialing up to the net, reading email etc. Just like with windows, your confidence will grow as you get the small things to work. probably
plump for back office/exchange server on our existing NT server.
Web proxy, well follow the install instructions, and squid (www.squid-cache.org) is quite easy to configure. It is very reliable. As for a mail server, qmail is used by thousands is ISPs, and "big" domains.
Can anyone deliver the promise of making it work ? (obviously I'd pay for this) Do SuSe / Navaho offer this service ?
Well at least theres no harm in giving it a try, if you cant get it to work then you can fall back on you windows system. And you'll have learnt enough to give it a better try next time. Theres plenty of help out there, linux software has excellent documentation. And surely thats what this list is all about, asking others for help, who have got the stuff to work.
participants (15)
-
Adrian Wells -
adrian.wells -
Alan Davies -
Bob Harding -
Christopher Dawkins -
Dave Williams -
Frank Shute -
Malcolm -
Mark Evans -
Martin Devon -
Nick Drage -
paul -
Phillip Deackes -
Richard Naylor -
Roger Whittaker