By "this country" I meant the UK as a whole :-) alan Mark Evans wrote:

...

Hi all,

Two questions :-

1. Has anybody experience of running Lotus applications under WINE?

Sorry never even tried to run them at all.

...

2. Has anybody any ideas if Lotus & WINE operate / run under LTSP?

If WINE will run the program then I don't see any reason why LTSP should matter (Unless WINE has been somehow built to only use the "shared memory" X extension, which requires both client and server to be on the same machine.)

Win4Lin works fine with LTSP and will run just about any Windows program which dosn't want to either open a listening socket or use Direct X. (Indeed it runs somethings considerably better than under regular Windows.)

...

We have been allocated approx £61K for ICT developments leading to a community school .. I have proposed an LTSP based solution BUT, can only go ahead if present software will operate under WINE. I hope somebody can help here as the future otherwise becomes to horrible to contemplate (If it does not then the horrible solution that will be imposed on me involves M$ office) and I'll have to resign and go find a job in IT on the Indian Sub-Continent!

I'm not sure MS Office runs especially well under WINE anyway.

...

Sometimes I think (well in fact I'm convinced) that ICT education and the future of this country are on a fast and very slippery downhill road to oblivion!

Is "this country" Wales or the whole of the UK?

-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

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-- ----------------------------------------------------- Alan Harris Network Manager Bryngwyn School Tel : 01554 750661 Fax : 01554 758255 E-mail: alanh@bryngwyn.carmarthen.sch ----------------------------------------------------- Notes: 1. The contents of this email may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown purposes! Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000. 2. The opinions expressed in this email are personal and may not be shared by Bryngwyn School. -----------------------------------------------------

Hi Ian et al, The issue is this: we have £61k to implement a public facing ict system which must also have a curriculum and community benefit. I am having a major debate on this with my immediate line manager which goes along these lines:- Me: We should use LTSP with Thin Clients because:- [1]. It's physically secure - it's not worth nicking a NIC and if they did it would'nt work! [2]. If it's facing the public then floppy disks are a bad idea - let's start a virus collection shall we? [3]. There are no desk tops that can be 'messed up', no hdd's to reformat, no cd drives to pick 'things' out of [4]. The biggest requirement fron joe public will be for Internet Access [5]. The area we are based in indicates that joe public will not be likely to have a home pc, they will traverse between schools / libraries / cybercafes / pubs in the area that have internet access. therefore let them sign up to something like Thinkfree office and use an asp model where they can obtain thier documents from anywhere - a true 'community' solution!, rather than carry lots of floppies around building up a massive virus challenge for any ict system. [6]. We can offer office functions via StarOffice [7]. We can offer lots of other applications (and therefore courses) for little cost eg: SQL/HTML/Pascal/C++/PERL/Python/Graphics Manipulation (GIMP) [8]. It will be a 'cheap', low tco solution [9]. Pupils will be able to 'log on' to the LTSP and obtain access to thier NT4 work areas via SAMBA, joe public won't be allowed to get that far. [10. We should be providing access to different systems running different os's and applications so that pupils can actually learn some 'real' ict skills which will bring benefit both to them and, at a later date, the country. [11]. We have StarOffice 5.1/5.2 installed on everything except out apple ibooks. Him: No, joe public uses M$ office or works, therefore we must provide it, School uses Lotus smartsuite, therefore we must provide it. In order to do this we must provide floppy disc access on windows systems to all pupils, staff and joe public. Joe public will not be able to use StarOffice and we cannot expect teachers to run two applications and transfer files between them. The benefits arising from free packages and languages under linux are irrelevant because we don't teach them and joe public does'nt use them or does'nt now how to operate a linux system (same argument used against apples). We need to buy laptops with office on or ibooks with office on (oops - no fdd's - scrub that idea) and use fdd's to transfer data. If Lotus Wordpro and 123 will run on LTSP then I'll consider it! Me: well, Corel Office runs under WINE on Linux and LTSP.... Him: No, joe public does not use it in this area and anyway, teachers will have to learn a different package so that's not an option. Me: If my six year old can deal with this concept, and the 10 year old routinely switches between os's, then I cannot see the problem, Him: yes, but your children are different Me: Leaves room in frustration, finds empty soundproof room equipped with large, well built wall, proceeds to scream loudly , bang head against wall and prepare to do battle with the unholy demons of M$, viruses, messed up and seriously damaged PC's....... Need I say more? Alan Ian Lynch wrote:

From: Alan Harris <alanh@bryngwyn.carmarthen.sch.uk> To: Schools List <suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com>; <southwales@lists.lug.org.uk> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Lotus 1123 & Wordpro Under WINE on LTSP?

...

We have been allocated approx £61K for ICT developments leading to a community school . I have proposed an LTSP based solution BUT, can only go ahead if present software will operate under WINE. I hope somebody can help here as the future otherwise becomes to horrible to contemplate (If it does not then the horrible solution that will be imposed on me involves M$ office) and I'll have to resign and go find a job in IT on the Indian Sub-Continent!

Hang on a sec. Are you saying that if Lotus doesn't work they want to switch to M$ Office? If so, why not just use Star Office as its far closer to M$ Office than Lotus is so less of a learning curve, its free and it will run on Windows and Linux. So you could set up Linux thin clients to run StarOffice and say all your Internet stuff from a server and still use existing Windows based machines with their programs on the existing workstations that people are used to. In fact you could either set those machines to dual boot or use a Linux thin client access application on the Windows machines to access the Linux server. If you use Samba on your fileserver it can also then handle all your Windows file serving too. If you want to do thin client and some of these other things you might be better with 2 servers but building 2 machines even with 2 gig of RAM and dual processors is not much over £1000 each on current component prices. When people realise the cost-benefit and the number of free applications increase you can gradually build more on the Linux side and let the Windows stuff wither on the vine.

...

Sometimes I think (well in fact I'm convinced) that ICT education and the future of this country are on a fast and very slippery downhill road to oblivion!

Nah, I have plans that will change everything, give us a year :-)

-- IanL

-- ----------------------------------------------------- Alan Harris Network Manager Bryngwyn School Tel : 01554 750661 Fax : 01554 758255 E-mail: alanh@bryngwyn.carmarthen.sch ----------------------------------------------------- Notes: 1. The contents of this email may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown purposes! Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000. 2. The opinions expressed in this email are personal and may not be shared by Bryngwyn School. -----------------------------------------------------

Hi Ian et al,

The issue is this: we have £61k to implement a public facing ict system which must also have a curriculum and community benefit.

I am having a major debate on this with my immediate line manager which goes along these lines:-

Me: We should use LTSP with Thin Clients because:- [1]. It's physically secure - it's not worth nicking a NIC and if they did it would'nt work! [2]. If it's facing the public then floppy disks are a bad idea - let's start a virus collection shall we?

Also floppies are fairly easy to break with someone who dosn't know what they are doing also being capable of destroying the drive too.

[3]. There are no desk tops that can be 'messed up', no hdd's to reformat, no cd drives to pick 'things' out of

This agrees with my experience that adult students can be just as destructive as the children. (Only difference it that they appear less likely to hunt for games and porn on the internet.)

[4]. The biggest requirement fron joe public will be for Internet Access [5]. The area we are based in indicates that joe public will not be likely to have a home pc, they will traverse between schools / libraries / cybercafes / pubs in the area that have internet access. therefore let them sign up to something like Thinkfree office and use an asp model where they can obtain thier documents from anywhere - a true 'community' solution!, rather than carry lots of floppies around building up a massive virus challenge for any ict system.

Or some other method of network storage. Be that global or actually physically present in South Wales.

[6]. We can offer office functions via StarOffice [7]. We can offer lots of other applications (and therefore courses) for little cost eg: SQL/HTML/Pascal/C++/PERL/Python/Graphics Manipulation (GIMP) [8]. It will be a 'cheap', low tco solution [9]. Pupils will be able to 'log on' to the LTSP and obtain access to thier NT4 work areas via SAMBA, joe public won't be allowed to get that far. [10. We should be providing access to different systems running different os's and applications so that pupils can actually learn some

This applies just as much to the adults as the children.

'real' ict skills which will bring benefit both to them and, at a later date, the country.

You can also use Win4Lin/VMware/etc, to provide multiple environments. IMHO Windows is far better running in it's own virtual machine than let loose on the real hardware. (Especially if it's run as a copy which can simply be thrown away when the session is finished, so if someone messes with it it dosn't matter at all. Next time it's started up there is a fresh copy anyway.)

[11]. We have StarOffice 5.1/5.2 installed on everything except out apple ibooks.

Him: No, joe public uses M$ office or works, therefore we must provide

Which version of these though? If you have to provide every version of office and works known to man then even at educational prices the licences will eclipse the hardware costs.

it, School uses Lotus smartsuite, therefore we must provide it. In order to do this we must provide floppy disc access on windows systems to all

People carting floppy disks around is going backwards, IMHO.#

pupils, staff and joe public. Joe public will not be able to use

The pupils and staff already have a prefectly good network area. It's prefectly possible to provide the same for "Joe Public". The major issue is providing a high enough bandwidth connection to the filestore.

StarOffice and we cannot expect teachers to run two applications and transfer files between them. The benefits arising from free packages and languages under linux are irrelevant because we don't teach them and joe public does'nt use them or does'nt now how to operate a linux system

There really is very little really difference from the user POV in the first place.

(same argument used against apples). We need to buy laptops with office on or ibooks with office on (oops - no fdd's - scrub that idea) and use fdd's to transfer data. If Lotus Wordpro and 123 will run on LTSP then

Maybe you can get something which uses punched cards :)

I'll consider it!

Me: well, Corel Office runs under WINE on Linux and LTSP....

Him: No, joe public does not use it in this area and anyway, teachers

They found this out exactly how?. Did the Welsh version of the census ask these kind of questions (the English version certainly didn't) (Even if they did it's a bit quick to be getting any data out.)

will have to learn a different package so that's not an option.

Me: If my six year old can deal with this concept, and the 10 year old routinely switches between os's, then I cannot see the problem,

I can't think of any other area where this is even an issue. It's almost as though it is a matter of misplaced pride for people to only be able to use a very specific piece of software. Maybe he should pop down the road and try and convince the DVLA to use the same kind of criteria for issuing driving licences.

Him: yes, but your children are different

Your children are smarter than the average adult??? Or maybe havn't yet learned to be stupidly bone headed about... -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

From: Alan Harris <alanh@bryngwyn.carmarthen.sch.uk> To: Schools List <suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com>; <southwales@lists.lug.org.uk> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Lotus 1123 & Wordpro Under WINE on LTSP?

...

We have been allocated approx £61K for ICT developments leading to a community school . I have proposed an LTSP based solution BUT, can only go ahead if present software will operate under WINE. I hope somebody can help here as the future otherwise becomes to horrible to contemplate (If it does not then the horrible solution that will be imposed on me involves M$ office) and I'll have to resign and go find a job in IT on the Indian Sub-Continent!

Hang on a sec. Are you saying that if Lotus doesn't work they want to switch to M$ Office? If so, why not just use Star Office as its far closer to M$

By the sound of things Alan is saying that the money has strings attached.. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763