On the small (32Mb/200Mhz) machines I am setting up, I would like to be in a position to run KOffice programs. Certainly KWord is becoming a well featured application, and it runs fine in the small memory environment. As you may remember, I am using IceWM in order to reduce the memory overhead of the window manager. Just starting KDE puts me into 12Mb of swap, wheras IceWM leaves me several Mb free/cache. Now to the problem. Although KWord runs ok it takes ages to get going (40 seconds) under IceWM, although if I run it under KDE on the same machine, in spite of the crazy amount of disk sqapping going on, it actually starts up in under 10 seconds. Non-KDE applications, such as AbiWord and Gimp, start up in a couple of seconds regardless of WM. Does anyone know what magic tricks I can perform to effect the speedup under IceWM? Cheers -- Phil Driscoll
On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Phil Driscoll wrote:
On the small (32Mb/200Mhz) machines I am setting up, I would like to be in a position to run KOffice programs. Certainly KWord is becoming a well featured application, and it runs fine in the small memory environment. As you may remember, I am using IceWM in order to reduce the memory overhead of the window manager. Just starting KDE puts me into 12Mb of swap, wheras IceWM leaves me several Mb free/cache. Now to the problem. Although KWord runs ok it takes ages to get going (40 seconds) under IceWM, although if I run it under KDE on the same machine, in spite of the crazy amount of disk sqapping going on, it actually starts up in under 10 seconds. Non-KDE applications, such as AbiWord and Gimp, start up in a couple of seconds regardless of WM. Does anyone know what magic tricks I can perform to effect the speedup under IceWM?
KDE applications now start up via kdeinit. KDE utilises a support environment which includes the DCOP inter-application communications program and the ksycoca configuration cache. These are normally started up when KDE itself starts, so KDE applications will launch quickly when started from KDE. When you start a KDE application from outside KDE, it has to start up the support environment first, which is what is causing the added delay under IceWM. As far as magic tricks go, my best recommendation is to use the old, small-memory machines as thin-client terminals. This will enable you to run virtually whatever applications you want, without worrying about the memory footprint. Of course, you will need a thin-client server, but for the amount of time you seem to be investing in trimming the memory footprint you could buy a thin-client server and pay to have it supported. Just for reference, on the system that IRL/Fen Systems just put in to Woodlands Junior School in Kent, StarOffice starts in around three seconds flat. Bearing in mind the bloat of StarOffice, that should give you some idea of the sort of speed you can get from a thin-client system using old hardware for the client terminals. Michael
On Monday 13 August 2001 19:56, Michael Brown wrote:
KDE applications now start up via kdeinit. KDE utilises a support environment which includes the DCOP inter-application communications program and the ksycoca configuration cache. These are normally started up when KDE itself starts, so KDE applications will launch quickly when started from KDE. When you start a KDE application from outside KDE, it has to start up the support environment first, which is what is causing the added delay under IceWM.
The trick I'm looking for is probably getting the kde support environment up and running as the desktop boots so that the KDE apps can take advantage of Sycoca etc. Anyone know how?
As far as magic tricks go, my best recommendation is to use the old, small-memory machines as thin-client terminals. This will enable you to run virtually whatever applications you want, without worrying about the memory footprint. Of course, you will need a thin-client server, but for the amount of time you seem to be investing in trimming the memory footprint you could buy a thin-client server and pay to have it supported.
If I can work out how to do this and make the information on how to do it freely available, I hope that the results of my work will benefit any interested school. Therefore, I am happy to ignore the fact that we could have bought a rack full of servers if I'd been charging for my time!
Just for reference, on the system that IRL/Fen Systems just put in to Woodlands Junior School in Kent, StarOffice starts in around three seconds flat. That's 3 times quicker than my 1200MHz AMD machine does it!
Cheers -- Phil Driscoll
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Phil Driscoll wrote:
KDE applications now start up via kdeinit. KDE utilises a support environment which includes the DCOP inter-application communications program and the ksycoca configuration cache. These are normally started up when KDE itself starts, so KDE applications will launch quickly when started from KDE. When you start a KDE application from outside KDE, it has to start up the support environment first, which is what is causing the added delay under IceWM. The trick I'm looking for is probably getting the kde support environment up and running as the desktop boots so that the KDE apps can take advantage of Sycoca etc. Anyone know how?
Haven't tried it, but it should work: Start up one of your X programs (e.g. the window manager) via kdeinit. This will bring up the KDE support environment and then execute your window manager.
Just for reference, on the system that IRL/Fen Systems just put in to Woodlands Junior School in Kent, StarOffice starts in around three seconds flat. That's 3 times quicker than my 1200MHz AMD machine does it!
Interesting: the server in question was a single-processor 1GHz Intel PIII machine. (There is also a dual-1GHz PIII server, but it wasn't switched on at the time of the informal test). I think this corroborates what I have been saying for years: the best way to get high performance out of Linux boxes is to shove plenty of RAM in there. The server had (AFAICR) 1GB of RAM, so most applications can start up from cache rather than from disk. This is, although I know you might not want to hear this, another argument in favour of terminal servers a la LTSP / Fen Systems / etc. Shared memory between applications on the server means that you get even more bang for your buck* out of the extra memory you add in to increase performance. * OK, so it's a little bit academic now that you can now pick up 2GB RAM for £166 (or £360 if you want branded and ECC), but 2GB RAM for one server is still cheaper than 256MB RAM for each of 25 clients. Michael
On Tuesday 14 August 2001 10:10, Michael Brown wrote:
Haven't tried it, but it should work:
Start up one of your X programs (e.g. the window manager) via kdeinit. This will bring up the KDE support environment and then execute your window manager.
Nearly, but not quite. I change the line which starts IceWM to read kdeinit icewm The desktop gets as far as redrawing itself on screen but then after about 0.25 seconds it dies and the machine reverts to the xdm login screen. Error output reads: DCOPServer up and running. icewm: Warning: Obsolete option: TitleBarCentered X connection to :0.0 broken (explicit kill or server shutdown). kdeinit: Fatal IO error: client killed KLauncher: Exiting on signal 1 Running kdeinit after the window manager has run has no effect on kword startup times. Cheers -- Phil Driscoll
I'd not bother trying to run the big apps on the little machines. Just use a machine elsewhere, with sufficient CPU and memory -- you're running a full X server on the little machines, so why not take advantage of it and allow the apps to run elsewhere? For example, a colleague just put together a box with a 900MHz Athlon and 256Mb of memory for less than 300 pounds inc VAT... If you run lots of versions of KOffice on *that* sort of box, they'll share memory, so not take as much as running them on separate boxes... Remember that your CPU server needn't have much disk of its own, nor a fancy monitor... I assume all the little boxes would be using a remote file server? You would let the 'CPU server' do the same, but could also give it a local software installation, so that it won't have to go to the network to load apps. By the way, there's no reason why you can't run the window manager outside the little boxes too -- just leave them running the X server. Bob G Phil Driscoll wrote:
On the small (32Mb/200Mhz) machines I am setting up, I would like to be in a position to run KOffice programs. Certainly KWord is becoming a well featured application, and it runs fine in the small memory environment.
As you may remember, I am using IceWM in order to reduce the memory overhead of the window manager. Just starting KDE puts me into 12Mb of swap, wheras IceWM leaves me several Mb free/cache.
Now to the problem. Although KWord runs ok it takes ages to get going (40 seconds) under IceWM, although if I run it under KDE on the same machine, in spite of the crazy amount of disk sqapping going on, it actually starts up in under 10 seconds. Non-KDE applications, such as AbiWord and Gimp, start up in a couple of seconds regardless of WM.
Does anyone know what magic tricks I can perform to effect the speedup under IceWM?
Cheers -- Phil Driscoll
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
On Monday 13 August 2001 20:10, Robert J Gautier wrote:
I'd not bother trying to run the big apps on the little machines. Just use a machine elsewhere, with sufficient CPU and memory -- you're running a full X server on the little machines, so why not take advantage of it and allow the apps to run elsewhere?
I've already had this debate. The local school was *lucky* enough to be given 123 machines - 3Gb hard disc, 32Mb RAM, 200MHz processor, keyboard, monito, mouse, onboard ethernet, no OS. They have absolutely zero budget to commission the machines - nada! I know that runing terminal servers into a number of big machines would solve a lot of my problems, but apart from the lack of cash, many of these machines have to be used away from the network. The fact is that with IceWM the machines run quite nicely, and the non kde applications run as sweet as a nut. I just need to put together a good enough suite of productivity software, and the job is done. Star Office is way too big to run on the machines. AbiWord runs well but is a big step backwards in functionality from what the kids are used to using (Impression on Risc OS), whereas KWord as a frame based Word Processor works in a very similar way. If the school are to be persuaded to make more use of Linux, I have to make the transition smooth for them (no big surprises when moving between Risc OS, Windows and Linux) and the machines will have to work well. I'm very nearly there if I can get the kde apps to start quickly. Cheers -- Phil Driscoll
participants (3)
-
Michael Brown -
Phil Driscoll -
Robert J Gautier