RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] NHS Meeting, Blair and Gates
-----Original Message----- They have been found to have broken the law, including abuse of monoploy position more than once. But the most powerful government in the world (which is quite happy to exterminate the governments of nations they don't like) appears utterly powerless in this situation.
OK...firstly...yes they *have* been a monopolising company, and secondly, the actions of the USA in Arghanistan are off topic.
An organisation which can repeatedly put 2 fingers up to a US federal court and get told "we'll tell you to be nice for 5 years and if you don't we'll tell you for 7 years". IMHO isn't too far off ruling the world.
Ruling the world? I think not...
- they have such a monopoly through tough business practices and also
There are "tough business practices" and there is breaking the law. (Also when a business uses the business practices of a gangster shouldn't it be treated the same way as a business set up bg gangsters?)
I dont think they use the practices of a gangster. Unfair competition...yes...mowing down people with guns and torturing your enemies...no.
(believe it or not) through some decent products.
Which products do you think are good, why do you think they are good? Also do you still think they are good for the environment of a school.
I think MS Office is a good suite. It is well designed, works fairly well and gets kids using computers at an early age with a simple interface. IMHO kids need something that is simple to use and works as they expect it, and Office is pretty much this way. Also...most other office suites have pretty much replicated the interface (which is good IMHO). Yes it is expensive and yes it is closed and yes it is proprietary, but I am looking at the interface and the featureset here.
Lots of flaws does not necessarily imply "not viable". It's more a question of can the "flaws" be addressed, IME changing how open source software works is far easier than with closed source.
Lots of flaws for a Linux developer/advocate = viable Lots of flaws for a Linux newbie = not viable Like anything in life, there are varying levels of positive and negative. Microsoft does have its good points, and it does its bad points. Also, it is not like they are the only comptetitor out there for us. Cheers, Jono
(believe it or not) through some decent products.
Which products do you think are good, why do you think they are good? Also do you still think they are good for the environment of a school.
I think MS Office is a good suite. It is well designed, works fairly well and gets kids using computers at an early age with a simple interface. IMHO kids need something that is simple to use and works as they expect it, and Office is pretty much this way. Also...most other office suites have pretty much replicated the interface (which is good IMHO). Yes it is expensive and yes it is closed and yes it is proprietary, but I am looking at the interface and the featureset here.
IME quite a lot of the featureset of Office can case a lot of problems in schools. It's quite possible to change drastically how Word works simply by altering the "Autocorrect" settings. e.g. suddently a word processor becomes a subsitution cypher machine. This is a major flaw IMHO with a lot of Microsoft's software it comes with "features" which are hardly ever used. But can quite easily create havoc, either from the the POV of suddenly changing the way something works or in the case of IE, IIS, OE creating a "back door" through which you could taxi a 747. Whilst looking superficially similar Star Office appears somewhat better at making the key functions easily available. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Tuesday 04 December 2001 1:12 pm, Jonathan Bacon wrote: [snip]
There are "tough business practices" and there is breaking the law. (Also when a business uses the business practices of a gangster shouldn't it be treated the same way as a business set up bg gangsters?)
I dont think they use the practices of a gangster. Unfair competition...yes...mowing down people with guns and torturing your enemies...no.
Hmmm, MS not torturing people eh? You've never worked on a MS oriented help desk have you? (Yes, that was a joke)
(believe it or not) through some decent products.
Which products do you think are good, why do you think they are good? Also do you still think they are good for the environment of a school.
I think MS Office is a good suite. It is well designed, works fairly well and gets kids using computers at an early age with a simple interface. IMHO kids need something that is simple to use and works as they expect it, and Office is pretty much this way. Also...most other office suites have pretty much replicated the interface (which is good IMHO). Yes it is expensive and yes it is closed and yes it is proprietary, but I am looking at the interface and the featureset here.
To some extent, I agree with you. Although my workstation is Linux, I do have ME on my laptop, and I do find the UI on office to be *comfy*. However, I think that there are a number of issues with the UI which people either gloss over or simply ignore because of the doctorine (speling was nefer mi strong poynt) that "Oh, it's a computer - they're supposed to be awkward" as well as the off-hand lack-of-annoyence at having to reboot regularly (which I find ME is really bad at).
Lots of flaws does not necessarily imply "not viable". It's more a question of can the "flaws" be addressed, IME changing how open source software works is far easier than with closed source.
Lots of flaws for a Linux developer/advocate = viable Lots of flaws for a Linux newbie = not viable
Here I agree that flaws in Linux are not good. Linux is Flawed!! Linux Apps are flawed!! (head down asbestos hat on). But never forget, so are - to a lesser or GREATER extent - are MS Apps. Let me re-state a point I made earlier which I think was overlooked. All this anger, frustration and general shouting being made regarding the NHS is not mainly aimed at MS but at our own government who are blindly following what MS say. MS are a business, who's objective is to make money. This is something they do very well. Our government's job is to provide us with an efficient NHS. This is something they obviously cannot do as they are now talking about increasing taxes to pay for it, and pay private hospitals to help it along. The fact that they have not even done enough research into the project before committing themselves to spending £70M that they cannot give reasonable responses to requests for informatiom from members of this and other lists is what I think annoys most people. The fact that this contract was with MS only meant that the medicine (pun intended) tasted just that little bit worse.
Like anything in life, there are varying levels of positive and negative. Microsoft does have its good points, and it does its bad points. Also, it is not like they are the only comptetitor out there for us.
Cheers,
Jono
-- Gary Stainburn This email does not contain private or confidential material as it may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown and undisclosed purposes - Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000
Ruling the world? I think not...
- they have such a monopoly through tough business
practices and also
There are "tough business practices" and there is breaking the law. (Also when a business uses the business practices of a gangster shouldn't it be treated the same way as a business set up bg gangsters?)
I dont think they use the practices of a gangster. Unfair competition...yes...mowing down people with guns and torturing your enemies...no.
Fraud and other economic crimes can do just as much damage. To keep it on thread :-) If money is diverted from the health service people do die. Not everyone gets the treatment they need and at the margins it is life or death, its just more anonymous.
(believe it or not) through some decent products.
Which products do you think are good, why do you think they are good? Also do you still think they are good for the environment of a school.
I think MS Office is a good suite. It is well designed, works fairly well and gets kids using computers at an early age with a simple interface.
Ever use a RISC OS machine 10 years ago :-). MS Office is only really special in that its widespread and has a lot of features, most of which most people don't actually use. Its comprehensive. Most people that think its wonderful have only really used similar products on Windows so they don't really know what it could have been like.
IMHO kids need something that is simple to use and works as they expect it,
Try Textease, its cross platform and at least as easy as MS Office.
and Office is pretty much this way.
But its nothing special, its just as it should be.
Also...most other office suites have pretty much replicated the interface (which is good IMHO).
Its convenient because it is established as a standard way of doing things. Its not particularly ergonomically brilliant so again I would say it was average reather than particularly good.
Yes it is expensive and yes it is closed and yes it is proprietary, but I am looking at the interface and the featureset here.
So we have an average everyday thing that is expensive and closed. Granted the featureset is comprehensive.
Lots of flaws does not necessarily imply "not viable". It's more a question of can the "flaws" be addressed, IME changing how open source software works is far easier than with closed source.
Lots of flaws for a Linux developer/advocate = viable Lots of flaws for a Linux newbie = not viable
We will not get Linux to be as widespread as Windows until people realise that it is not technical capability that really matters, its market perception. MS got a very big leg up because, ironically, industry was scared of proprietary systems and the IBM PC was open architecture. Unfortunately that was hardware but at the time, the OS was a much smaller proportion of the cost so it was conveniently ignored. Technically, much better office suites could be written but now they would have to be like MS office because its simply familiarity and branding. So best thing for Star Office is to be a clone until it gets a majority user base, then change and improve it. ie Star Office will not be established by being better but by being the same - identical even and cheaper.
Like anything in life, there are varying levels of positive and negative. Microsoft does have its good points, and it does its bad points. Also, it is not like they are the only comptetitor out there for us.
They are the most significant one and given that resources are limited focus and priorities are required. -- IanL Open Source - save money - employ more teachers Use Star Office the free replacement for Microsoft Office
participants (4)
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Gary Stainburn -
Ian -
Jonathan Bacon -
Mark Evans