Hi all I agree with Ian. The answer is to persuade the people producing educational software to produce a Linux version as well as Windows, but this is a chicken and egg situation in that as far as the producers are concerned there are not enough schools using Linux to justify the cost of producing a Linux version. What we need is a database of schools using Linux both to persuade people that there is a market out there, and also to be able to find schools who would be willing to trial new (Linux) products. Grahame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Grahame Leon-Smith, Chairman of Trustees Tel +44-1932-874303 Fax +44-1932-874068 FREE COMPUTERS FOR EDUCATION Registered Charity No. 1059116 PLEASE VISIT OUR WEB SITE AT < http://www.free-computers.org> and for further information just send a blank email to: < mailto:free-computers-news-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: Ian Lynch [mailto:ian.lynch2@ntlworld.com] Sent: 30 September 2002 19:32 To: John Ralph; Chris Puttick; suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] WINE is all we need... On Monday 30 September 2002 19:09, John Ralph wrote:

As and active advocate of open source software in schools I have to question the reasoning behind the desire to run WINE at all, surely the ideal in an educational environment is to provide usable, cost effective and reliable software on the desktop.

er yes, but you have to provide what teachers want to use and some of them want things that are not covered by OSS. In principle, running on Wine on Linux is a step up from running on Windows OSSwise and without such stepping stones the ideal of all OSS is pretty much never going to happen.

WINE allows you to run Windows application under Linux/Unix, so what? You still have to pay for licensing for those applications, it's less reliable that running those applications on their native platform and have you tried to get Micro$oft to support there support their software when running it on another O/S, no I didn't think so :-)

So maybe its better to use say Windows 95 locally to run all those specialist things that only run on Windows - let's face it how much education software needs 2000/XP to run? - and run generl productivity software such as office etc as thin client using Linux. That way you use low cost MS stuff and don't have to buy any more but provide a possible way of getting from a to b. ie there are immediate savings but also long term savings without having to sacrifice any significant functionality.

Surely we should be putting our combined efforts into finding/supporting/developing applications which are good solid open source replacements for Microsoft Office et al.

Open Office does that, what is needed is the gaps filled not yet another WP. A simple data base like Pinpoint that originated on the old Acorn machines would be a good idea. I am at the moment trying to get specialist computing schools to put at least some effort into getting their best programmers to contribute to open source projects and a language specialist school to help with document translation. I have two very keen ones so far but this is going to take time. Imagine say 100 secondary schools contributing their 2 brightest A level computer programmers to OS projects. I believe it would make an impact especially if then replicated in other countries.

I agree with you that we should be assisting the developers and providing central support for open source products, but lets ensure that we choose the correct people to support.

Main snag I see is the fragmented nature of the OS world. Chris is in a CLC, John is in a CLC, East HUll CLC has a 120 station thin client Liux network, why not get a CLC group supporting OSS? CLCs are supposed to be innovating cutting edge technology for the benefit of the rest of the system. OSS certainly fits that model. Same is true of EAZ support, I have some of that too, then get specialist schools on board. Let's use the government initiatives. I'll help do some co-ordinating but there is just me and I have two companies to run! I can even get some sponsorship in kind eligible for matched funding in some cases and this has already funded some OSS. I am sure East Hull would host a meeting of CLCs interested in the concept. If I get two or three that are interested, I'll mailshot the rest and arrange it. Regards, -- IanL -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 09/09/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 09/09/2002

Tim Many apologies for the delay in replying. I have been away. Ideally it ought to be in Linux, but if we want to convince the Windows users that there are lots of schools out there actually using Linux then it will probably have to be in a form that they can easily access eg Outlook/Access. It would need to include: Name of School, Type of School, Address, Name of Head, Name of ICT Co-ordinator, Tel No, Fax, Email and Website. Regards, Grahame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Grahame Leon-Smith, Chairman of Trustees Tel +44-1932-874303 Fax +44-1932-874068 FREE COMPUTERS FOR EDUCATION Registered Charity No. 1059116 PLEASE VISIT OUR WEB SITE AT < http://www.free-computers.org> and for further information just send a blank email to: < mailto:free-computers-news-subscribe@yahoogroups.com> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: Tim Pizey [mailto:timp@paneris.org] Sent: 01 October 2002 15:47 To: Grahame Leon-Smith at Free Computers; Ian Lynch; John Ralph; Chris Puttick; suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Linux schools db [was:WINE is all we need...] On Tuesday 01 October 2002 13:31, Grahame Leon-Smith at Free Computers wrote:

What we need is a database of schools using Linux both to persuade people that there is a market out there, and also to be able to find schools who would be willing to trial new (Linux) products.

Grahame

OK, what format should this DB be in? I can set this up quite quickly, what data do you want to hold? cheers Tim Pizey -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 09/09/2002

...

Ideally it ought to be in Linux, but if we want to convince the Windows users that there are lots of schools out there actually using Linux then it will probably have to be in a form that they can easily access eg Outlook/Access.

What a terrible idea. Outlook/Access! That's two things we just don't have here (though I do know some people here use Outlook, they're the ones that get viruses).

The database could be in MySQL/PostgresSQL and run on Linux and Apache and then any machine with a web browser can access it.

Exactly.

...

It would need to include: Name of School, Type of School, Address, Name of Head, Name of ICT Co-ordinator, Tel No, Fax, Email and Website.

Address? Name of Head? Neither seem very useful .... Name of ICT co-ordinator? Yes, but make it name of person responsible, who is not necessarily the ICT co-ordinator. Fax? What's that? Why not just email and website? These are all one needs to find out information and make contact. But it needs "Operating Systems" and "Applications" for a start, and maybe some indication of the percentage of usage of each OS at server & client level (we have six OS's here). But that might be too much form-filling, so a brief description might be better. A system was set up under the osie banner by Michael Brown two years ago. It attracted about five entries, and is now inaccessible. To get a good block of entries, you need to have a few suppliers such as Suse, Fensystems, Red Hat, IRL etc ask their customers to allow them to be listed. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-822698, mobile 07816 821659 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk

On Fri, 2002-10-25 at 18:35, Christopher Dawkins wrote:

To get a good block of entries, you need to have a few suppliers such as Suse, Fensystems, Red Hat, IRL etc ask their customers to allow them to be listed.

I'll do that next week. Regards, -- Ian

On Fri, 2002-10-25 at 03:13, Tim Pizey wrote:

Grahame and all,

Please see http://www.paneris.org/schools/org.melati.admin.Admin/schools/Main

Good work Tim - a couple of suggestions. In the school designation, some users are not schools eg East Hull City Learning Centre so we perhaps need an "other" category. Also a brief description of use eg 120 station wireless thin clients, Proxy server File server etc If it wasn't too much trouble a list to tick such as Proxy server Web server File server Thin client server Separate Linux and Windows networks Integrated Windows and Linux networks Only Linux Number of machines running desktop linux The first list could just be clicks on radio buttons and the number of machines simply enter a number. This would mean a new user could contact a nearby institution with experience in the area they are considering going into. Regards, -- Ian

On Tuesday 01 October 2002 1:31 pm, Grahame Leon-Smith at Free Computers wrote:

Hi all

I agree with Ian. The answer is to persuade the people producing educational software to produce a Linux version as well as Windows, but this is a chicken and egg situation in that as far as the producers are concerned there are not enough schools using Linux to justify the cost of producing a Linux version.

Persuading people who produce educational software to stop doing that and start producing web based tools using open standards which do the same jobs, is perhaps more likely to produce results than getting them to take on a new platform. Most educational software producers in the uk are very small, and many will have just one programmer. The big companies tend to either sell externally sourced software, or buy the small companies and take them in house. Persuading (and even offering to help) developers to produce web based versions of their stuff on the grounds that the web is the future, might be easier than convincing them that Linux is the future. For the last 5 years we (Dial Solutions) have spent lots of time developing web based Java versions of My World, and some of our other products. Although our Windows sales still dwarf the Java stuff, at least we get the feel-good factor of having (probably) the only mainstream primary application which will run on anything. Cheers -- Phil Driscoll

...

What we need is a database of schools using Linux both to persuade people that there is a market out there, and also to be able to find schools who would be willing to trial new (Linux) products.

This is an existing lug.org.uk project, which a student is trying to finish before going back to University.

It was also a Fensystems project, a year or two ago under the osie (Open Systems in Education) banner. The problem lies in getting good info from schools, many of whom are beavering away in isolation. Maybe a further OSS push at BETT is the way forwards - a strong degree of co-ordination betwen the different OSS stands. None have yet made quite the same impression as the RM or Microsoft stands. (Thank goodness!). But if every stand featuring OSS could post the same map featuring all the other relevant stands - well, that might show how small mobile brainy flexible adaptable cooperative mammal-like creatures (Bother! Penguins aren't mammals!) can compete with huge lumbering dinosaurs. Like a radio telescope made from many small dishes spread out over a country. Each on its own is too small to be effective. But together, it is more than the sum of its parts, and visitors might suddenly appreciate the idea that the winds of change are blowing. This needs to be co-ordinated by someone with a stand. Or a lug, to avoid overt bias to any one distro. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-822698, mobile 07816 821659 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk

On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Ian Lynch wrote:

...

None have yet made quite the same impression as the RM or Microsoft stands. (Thank goodness!). But if every stand featuring OSS could post the same map featuring all the other relevant stands - well, that might show how small mobile brainy flexible adaptable cooperative mammal-like creatures (Bother! Penguins aren't mammals!) can compete with huge lumbering dinosaurs. How many OSS stands will be at BETT? I don't think many. We certainly couldn't justify it. But we will be at the TC Trust Conference which has greater focus and more people with purchasing power and influence. In my experience its mainly people with no purchasing power who attend BETT and the statistics of being able to make cold contact with someone significant who then buys enough off you to justify the planning time, the stand and following up a lot of duff leads simply isn't good business.

We will not be exhibiting at BETT this year, for two reasons. Firstly, we already have sufficient work to do and we find that people seek us out; we do not need to actively seek out new customers. Secondly, BETT does not represent good value for money. The vast majority of BETT visitors are "just looking" and many do not have any say in their school's purchasing decisions. Attendance cannot easily be justified on a commercial basis, as we have discovered from the past two years. Floor space alone costs around 300 pounds per square metre. The smallest stands available in the main portion of the hall are around 30 square metres, so that's 9000 pounds just for the floor space. Of the four days of the exhibition, hardly anyone turns up on the Wednesday and on Saturday it's 90% trainee teachers, NQTs, classroom assistants and others who, while they may be interested, simply do not have significant influence.

...

This needs to be co-ordinated by someone with a stand. Or a lug, to avoid overt bias to any one distro.

Individual people visiting the show could have just as significant an influence as a large OSS stand. Visit all the various software stands and ask them if their product works on Linux. Tell them you might consider purchasing it but only if it can be made to work under Linux. Explain to them that there are companies that can help them to get their software to work under Wine, to port their software to Linux or to convert it into a platform-independent web application. Feel free to give them my name as a contact; I'm sure that there are other companies on this list that can provide a similar service. If you have a few hours/days to spare, try convincing BECTa that promoting awareness of the existence of open source software might fall under their strategic objective "To provide and promote a comprehensive national source of practical advice and support to schools, colleges and education authorities"... Michael Brown http://www.fensystems.co.uk

On Monday 30 September 2002 19:09, John Ralph wrote:

...

WINE allows you to run Windows application under Linux/Unix, so what? You still have to pay for licensing for those applications, it's less reliable that running those applications on their native platform and have you tried to get Micro$oft to support there support their software when running it on another O/S, no I didn't think so :-)

So maybe its better to use say Windows 95 locally to run all those specialist things that only run on Windows - let's face it how much education software needs 2000/XP to run? - and run generl productivity software such as office

Assuming the software in question will work with 2K/XP, either at all or without some major fiddling about. Some of it was written for Windows 3.1. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

There are all sorts of educational applications which schools already have. Licences bought and paid for, in some cases the publisher went out of business years ago.

Teaching staff, especially the less IT literate, can be very conservative and may insist on sticking with the application they have used for the last 5 years.

Five years? Up to eighteen years here. We're still making considerable use of BBC Basic, of Impression, Squirrel, Pipedream, !Edit, !Draw and many others. Indeed, one of the schools' central applications, the Noticeboard system, is still running on one of the original BBC machines for which it was written in 1984. It is also available (new code, old data) on the Web, on WAP and on X terminals too. Our timetable this year is still mastered on Pipedream, then imported to an SQL database from which, through PHP, any Web browser can access it. The "less IT literate", indeed. Our wap.felsted.org site carries information generated by two different BBC systems. Dynamic information too. If it works, the only reason to junk it is if there's something better. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-822698, mobile 07816 821659 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk

D Garside wrote:

I have configured sendmail so that we have internal email and we can access the net via our firewall box (smoothwall) and router. We are able to send surf and emails out into the world (route: network (192.168.1.x) -> firewall -> router -> ISP (Demon)).

That's good.

My problem is that the outside world cannot see us. I have assigned the two

What do you mean exactly? The outside world can get back to you, otherwise you wouldn't be able to get anything useful through the firewall, as TCP traffic is two-way communication.

IP addresses given to me by the ISP to the router and outward facing port of my firewall but although I can travel out (therefore the connection is working) nothing can see me. My ISP thinks that the problem is a DNS issue.

Things should be able to see you, as I've just mentioned above. From a remote machine, see if you can ping the IP address of the firewall.

I (foolishly?) used my BECTA registered address myschool.LEA.sch.uk which Demon (ISP) know me by. However they argue that because LEA.sch.uk is not registered with anyone no-one has domain authority to forward stuff to me - there is a gap between sch.uk and myschool.LEA.sch.uk.

Err... Even is LEA.sch.uk itself doesn't exist in DNS records, that doesn't mean that myschool.LEA.sch.uk can't. For example, if I have the domain foo.com, then I can create a DNS entry that resolves baz.bar.foo.com. However, I do not need an entry for bar.foo.com. Does that make any sense? :) Is myschool.LEA.sch.uk pointing to the IP address of your firewall?

Does this sound reasonable? I wonder if I haven't made a complete hash (pun intended) of my sendmail, DNS etc setup, but I am O'Reillyed out and would welcome advice from a fresh angle. (I half suspect I have gaping security holes the size of Micro$ofts ethical defecit!)

Could you explain a bit further what exactly is wrong, please? Could it be that the firewall is blocking ports that you actually want to allow access to? If you want to check for potential security holes, then one of the most useful tools that I've found is nmap. It's a port scanner; install it on a machine, and simply run "nmap <host.to.scan>". Hopefully there's been some slightly useful content in this message :-) Dan

Firstly, are you or Demon going to host the DNS of your global domain? Secondly, go to www.nic.uk stick in your domain ( don't put the www at the start ) in the search it will then tell you who currently holds the TAG. If the TAG holder is not yourself or Demon then you need to fax a letter to Nominet on headed paper asking them to transfer the domain, you need to check what information you need to provide and check with Demon that they can host it. It is not foolish at all to use your BECTA domain, and it must be registered to someone ( usually your ISP when the names were given out ). We use our becta domain, host our own DNS for it and DNS for 2 other domains we own, we host our own web & mail services without any problems. What Demon may mean is that they do not have the authority to transfer your domain to them, and that you need to do it. Robin. St Aidan's County High School Carlisle At 19:44 30/09/02 +0100, you wrote:

Hi,

I've reached the limit of my (v. limited) knowledge and suspect the fault could be down a number of different factors.

I have a functioning file-sharing class C network (192.168.1.x) , using samba, based on a linux server running kernel 2.5 (SuSe 7.3).

I have configured sendmail so that we have internal email and we can access the net via our firewall box (smoothwall) and router. We are able to send surf and emails out into the world (route: network (192.168.1.x) -> firewall -> router -> ISP (Demon)).

My problem is that the outside world cannot see us. I have assigned the two IP addresses given to me by the ISP to the router and outward facing port of my firewall but although I can travel out (therefore the connection is working) nothing can see me. My ISP thinks that the problem is a DNS issue.

I (foolishly?) used my BECTA registered address myschool.LEA.sch.uk which Demon (ISP) know me by. However they argue that because LEA.sch.uk is not registered with anyone no-one has domain authority to forward stuff to me - there is a gap between sch.uk and myschool.LEA.sch.uk.

Does this sound reasonable? I wonder if I haven't made a complete hash (pun intended) of my sendmail, DNS etc setup, but I am O'Reillyed out and would welcome advice from a fresh angle. (I half suspect I have gaping security holes the size of Micro$ofts ethical defecit!)

Darren Garside Freshford Primary School

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