--- Matt Williams wrote: >

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I cannot stress to you just how annoyed I am when even now some of my lecturers at University stipulate categorically that they want our assignments in MS-Word format. It is a farce -- and to think that I am doing a degree in Software Engineering. You'd think that they'd expand your knowledge of computer OS's.

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I find this very surprising indeed. Which University do you go to?

It's not a University per se: "Southampton Institute".

Some of the Open University courses have this approach too depending or not on whether they allow electronic assignment submission

Hmm, that is interesting... -- Thomas Adam ===== Thomas Adam "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- www.linuxgazette.com ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/

I've got next years software on my desk, (we're trialling it in a network environment, and it does indeed feature Star Office. Did thank the guy at Learning & Teaching Solutions :)

I guess the solution is to get all OU students to use Linux since that would create a big push for the University to support it.

Hi Matt,

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Some of the Open University courses have this approach too depending or not on whether they allow electronic assignment submission

Depends on the OU course and it's age - not just an e-assignment issue as far as I'm aware. The basic online applications disc supplied to students is beginning to feature either OOo or Star office (not had the latest yet so can't confirm personally), and there are courses which allow HTML or RTF work to be submitted via the e-assignments route. So becoming less MS specific.

There is even a Linux client version of their favoured groupware product out now, which I think they helped push for.

Some courses are based on use of Netscape rather than IE browsers, etc.

I'm aware of a course at the moment being piloted which is making efforts to be OS friendly via Java, etc. and even the course website etc are open source via Linux, Apache, Tomcat etc.

Older courses do tend to say MS Word Doc format - but a doc version old enough that I understand most open source or Linux friendly wp's will output in.

There is a lot of movement in such things behind the scenes, but the OU can be ponderous at times. As new courses appear, and old ones get updated I think things in this area will improve a lot though I expect that until all apps that a Uni might use are available on all platforms, there will always be difficult choices and restrictions. I'm sure there will be a tendancy to go with the more popular OS based on installs in the student population, and ease of solving distribution and copyright issues with third party (or OU) materials.

Though I have heard suggestions (vague as yet) that (soon to eventually) it might be practical and possible for some courses to go down the Knoppix CD live distribution type route with everything for a course (including OS) on a bootable CD/DVD. That would make studying operating systems easy - just run the live Cd for the OS under study at the time.

Regards

John (fellow OU student)

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:49:43 +0100 Matt Williams wrote:

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I cannot stress to you just how annoyed I am when even now some of my lecturers at University stipulate categorically that they want our assignments in MS-Word format. It is a farce -- and to think that I am doing a degree in Software Engineering. You'd think that

I've tried this route with my Apple, and I know there's loads of them *at* the OU, but they're not interested in porting there, so I think Linux is way off unfortunately.... On 2 Jul 2003 17:36:39 +0100, John Steventon wrote they'd

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expand your knowledge of computer OS's.

I find this very surprising indeed. Which University do you go to?

Some of the Open University courses have this approach too depending or not on whether they allow electronic assignment submission

Matt

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On Wed, 2003-07-02 at 18:07, MJ Ray wrote:

Matt Williams wrote:

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Some of the Open University courses have this approach too depending or not on whether they allow electronic assignment submission

Technically, the OU do not stop students from using other systems, but if you lose marks because you're not using the recommended system, that is your fault. So effectively the same. I have been told informally that this has been set from high in the organisation. AFFS are already working on it, but this doesn't seem to move quickly.

An official letter from the OFT might just speed them up a bit :-) -- ian

Here are some observations based on my experience in secondary schools: The level of skill among school IT staff is usually extremely low. How low? Well, I've come across secondary ICT coordinators in charge of all ICT infrastructure and teaching in large comprehensive schools (1,500 pupils plus) who are working at no better than 'Level 3 to 4' of the National Curriculum ICT attainment targets. In laymens terms this means they are working at the level which the government -- via their DfES (Department for Education and Skills) and QCA (Qualifications and Curriculum Authority) -- specifies is no better than "The expected attainment for the majority of pupils at the end of Key Stage 2" ...at age eleven. Fourteen-year-olds are expected to achieve levels 5 to 6, levels at which these ICT coordinators didn't even come close to meeting! Consequently most ICT coordinators -- who control what gets used in schools -- simply stick with what they know. Many will go still further and dumb-down their Microsoft based ICT facilities still further for example by; Doing away with all SMTP / POP email in favour of an obscure simplistic web based service that restricts pupils to a max of 10 e-mails each (including the ones they wish to save); Blowing away 'Windows Explorer', which means file navigation becomes a nightmare (no problem for the ICT coordinator of course, who retains Windows Explorer on his own PC); No Outlook, WordPad, NotePad, or any other utilities that make Windows usable. Anything at all that's configurable is also locked down; No file sharing (justified on the basis this will protect against viruses) ...they would not be capable of installing and updating an anti-virus programme; In fact their systems tend to be configured so as to reduce support to an absolute minimum ...at the expense of usability. Now if you suggest to them they should be addressing Linux based systems as well, their most likely response will be "What's Linux?"! David Bowles Education Support / TeacherLab

My observations are all based on my own experience plus some input form ICT professionals and teachers working in the school education field. But do exams boards require or even imply that Microsoft software must be specified? Let's look at this in some more detail... Qualification assessments used by exam boards fall into two main categories; 1. exams and 2. course-work. 1. Exams are strictly paper based -- except for students with Special Needs who have been granted a special arrangement by the exam board. In these cases the teacher (or student) are responsible for supplying the equipment, and for printing the student's output onto paper when the exam is over. This hard-copy is then forwarded to the exam board. Electronic answer papers (forwarded automatically to exam boards) are still a very long way off. Far too many schools have few machines that are powerful or reliable enough to use for this purpose! 2. Course-work may be produced using PC based systems. However the end result is always a hard-copy report printed out onto paper, ready for marking by the teacher. Thereafter this is stored safely in case this needs to be audited later by the exam board. Some teachers may allow their students to submit their assignments electronically, but this is rare and is up to the teacher's discretion. Teachers need to be careful their marking is based on the final paper report, in case this varies from the student submitted electronic version. The systems used to produce assessed course-work is supplied by the school, almost all of whom have already opted for a Microsoft based OS and applications software. A few may still be using old Amiga/Acorn machines, OSs and applications, but these are now rare in the secondary sector. The only area where there might be some Microsoft bias shown by exam boards is with 'A' level or 'AS' level ICT or Computing courses, however I personally don't have experience working in this sector. Certainly GCSE and GNVQ ICT courses don't require the use of specific software, although exam markers may have some problems with source listings, macros and configuration settings of systems they are not familiar with. My feeling is that exam boards need to challenged now, so as to ensure they are not tempted to go down the proprietary route at some future date. However what's going to make the biggest difference to Open Source use in education is the availability of high quality closely integrated open-source systems software, applications and courseware that's simple to install, configure and maintain. Possibly the three biggest potential niches are these; 1. Samba / Linux based servers initially used as standby devices or to increase network reliability and availability of school networks -- a big issue in many schools where downtimes of up to a whole month are not uncommon! Once ICT staff see and understand the benefits of Open Source based server solutions they may be more inclined to abandon Microsoft based solutions. 2. Many schools have got lots of slow old hardware kicking around. Furthermore, many schools can easily acquire lots more low- or no- cost hardware thrown out by upgrading commercial organisations. So there is a niche for 'thin client' Linux / Open Source server and client systems software and applications. 3. Maybe the biggest niche is for Open Source office applications and courseware that students can run on their home PCs. Many home PCs also don't have a full office suite installed on them, so there is a need for an 'Open Office' based students distribution that might / might not also include Linux. Furthermore a considerable proportion of students still don't have access to a home PC -- or only severely restricted access. Maybe when schools upgrade they can could supply their PCless students with a Linux / Open Office based PC. Overall, the biggest problem I see for Open Source in schools is the initial 'getting the foot in the door'. What the Open Source movement really needs is some 'must have killer application' that starts teachers and school ICT staff on their journey up the Open Source learning curve. David Bowles Education Support / TeacherLab

But what evidence have you based on your experience that will provide Richard Rothwell with a case to take the OFT? Have you observed or been told by teachers that they must buy M$ Office because the exams require it?

We need to stay focused if we want any of this action to help. Describing the problems is less helpful than solving them - which is why OFSTED's job is a lot easier than the schools.

-- ian

On Fri, 2003-07-04 at 00:41, David Bowles wrote:

Electronic answer papers (forwarded automatically to exam boards) are still a very long way off. Far too many schools have few machines that are powerful or reliable enough to use for this purpose!

Not if they used Linux thin clients - but that's another issue.

My feeling is that exam boards need to challenged now, so as to ensure they are not tempted to go down the proprietary route at some future date.

It was claimed that some exams were biased toward MS products. I don't deal with exams in detail so personally I don't know. The purpose of this thread was to get those who believe this to provide the evidence to Richard. One key test would be for someone to offer several schools say Lotus WordPro or OO.org and have it turned down because they need MS Office for national exams rather than because the software doesn't do functional things they need. The point of taking action is as much to get the issue in the public domain as it is to get M$ or the exam boards fined. We have no money so we need strategies that get publicity at zero or little cost.

However what's going to make the biggest difference to Open Source use in education is the availability of high quality closely integrated open-source systems software,

But that is a different issue and one that is being worked on. We need to attack this problem from many different angles not just one.

Overall, the biggest problem I see for Open Source in schools is the initial 'getting the foot in the door'.

Again some considerable headway is being made and there are a number of strategies involved. Lowering barriers to make a more receptive environment is part of it.

What the Open Source movement really needs is some 'must have killer application' that starts teachers and school ICT staff on their journey up the Open Source learning curve.

Like? The mythical killer app would likely have been found if it existed. Low cost thin client to get ubiquitous access to the Internet and general productivity tools is arguably a killer app and we are working hard to get this into schools. Getting the requirement for schools on M$ schools agreement not to have to pay M$ for such machines is part of the strategy. Anything else that frees up the market and calls attention to anti-competitive practice, the M$ monopoly etc will only help in that process. -- ian

On Thursday 03 Jul 2003 10:06 pm, ian wrote:

On Thu, 2003-07-03 at 21:24, David Bowles wrote:

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Here are some observations based on my experience in secondary schools:

But what evidence have you based on your experience that will provide Richard Rothwell with a case to take the OFT? Have you observed or been told by teachers that they must buy M$ Office because the exams require it?

If you look through the exam specifications (www.edexcel.org.uk, www.aqa.org.uk) there are no really explicit pushes for M$ stuff, though it is mentioned here and there, and the exam boards penalise students for talking about brand names and not applications. However, the key texts for GCSE, GNVQ, and GCE, AVCE are all written exclusively for M$ products (see www.payne-gallway.co.uk). I was at an A Level examiners meeting last year and mentioned that some students would be familiar with other systems and that had to be taken into consideration and I was told that it was insignificant. I think this relates to the comments by David relating to ICT coordinators as many people that are running the exam boards are not really computer savvy. However, I have to say in defense that most people who know anything about computers would not be stuck in teaching. I use Linux for ideological reasons as I am a socialist and the ideals built into the system appeal to me. I am not (no offense to the people on this list) a computer geek and I struggle with it. At times I find Linux infuriatingly complicated and many of my attempts to wean students from M$ have failed because of technical issues that I don't have the man hours to overcome. The other thing, related to what I say above, is that there are no decent books and support material yet to support a move to something else. I am working on a book about using Open Source but I don't know how far it will get and may only be something I use to support my own teaching. At my current school I have a network manager who was trained exclusively on RM and M$. He is unwilling and unable to load and support OO for me or any other open source software unless it is approved and created by RM. I am hoping my new school in September is not the same :) Paul

We need to stay focused if we want any of this action to help. Describing the problems is less helpful than solving them - which is why OFSTED's job is a lot easier than the schools.

-- ian