RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Plans for a Linux distro
Frank, the point I was making in a very deliberately unsubtle way was the one you rose to: your original and extensive reply dissed the opposition so hard in in such personal terms that it lost its effectiveness. Now, my reply was to one specific point regarding interface design, which was why I quoted you. The interface is extremely relevant. Look at http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm Regarding what should be taught in schools, I would certainly not teach C or C++ as a first language, points I made in another posting. Young kids want fast results otherwise they lose interest, so I think that at the age of 13 or so, starlogo http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/Projects/starlogo/ is much more accessible that any professional language. [It's a Java applet!] This begs the question of what you teach older pupils. C and C++ allow you to make lots of mistakes. C++ has never really lived up to the object promise IMO. Up until recently I taught Pascal, as a procedural language with good error checking. Now I'm not so sure. I really don't want to head down the C route, but I do want something with more 'teeth' than Logo. The point being that this is education not training. I don't expect my students to step straight into jobs with software companies. I do want them to have a basic understanding of program structures, interfaces and algorithms which they can build on wherever they go next. Any employer who offers a job solely on programming expertise picked up at school is asking for trouble! [although I can think of a couple of particular cases straight off which counter that argument]
From that perspective VB is no better or worse than many other languages. Not that I actually use it myself. But I have pupils who do....
-----Original Message----- From: 'Frank Shute' [mailto:frank@esperance-linux.co.uk] Sent: 03 February 2002 23:40 To: Grainge, Derek Cc: Schools List Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Plans for a Linux distro
On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:40:42PM -0000, Grainge, Derek wrote:
What the program looks like is a total irrelevance,
Let's reply in the same vein as your mail, Frank. Bollocks!
I gave my reasons for thinking it was bollocks. Now how about you having the courtesy to explain why my arguments are bollocks whilst seemingly to agree with most of them?
You might agree or disagree with what's required at school,
but there's no
need to piss on the argument. Especially when you're wrong.
C++ should be taught at school should it? Wrong am I?
Perhaps you should go and lie down for a while. You're obviously getting a little bit over-excited.
--
Frank
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings. -- William Blake
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On Monday 04 February 2002 11:28 am, Grainge, Derek wrote:
Frank, the point I was making in a very deliberately unsubtle way was the one you rose to: your original and extensive reply dissed the opposition so hard in in such personal terms that it lost its effectiveness.
Now, my reply was to one specific point regarding interface design, which was why I quoted you. The interface is extremely relevant. Look at http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm
A very interesting and informative site, thanks.
Regarding what should be taught in schools, I would certainly not teach C or C++ as a first language, points I made in another posting. Young kids want fast results otherwise they lose interest, so I think that at the age of 13 or so, starlogo http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/Projects/starlogo/ is much more accessible that any professional language. [It's a Java applet!]
Again, usefull thanks.
This begs the question of what you teach older pupils. C and C++ allow you to make lots of mistakes. C++ has never really lived up to the object promise IMO. Up until recently I taught Pascal, as a procedural language with good error checking. Now I'm not so sure. I really don't want to head down the C route, but I do want something with more 'teeth' than Logo.
One language that Frank has mentioned in Perl. I personally think that this would be an excelent first/second language. Also, it is one that would fit both the serious command-line/structured/top-down design ideology, and feed the quick-feedback eye-candy response fetish. In Perl, serious large scale batch-mode programs and systems can be developed using full SSADM if required, but because of it's ease-of-write and flexibility, it can be used, for example, in it's CGI guise to produce/process HTML pages that look nice. I have done both in anger at work here, and I've found it quite easy to start my PFY on Perl and left him to it.
The point being that this is education not training. I don't expect my students to step straight into jobs with software companies. I do want them to have a basic understanding of program structures, interfaces and algorithms which they can build on wherever they go next. Any employer who offers a job solely on programming expertise picked up at school is asking for trouble! [although I can think of a couple of particular cases straight off which counter that argument]
If anything can ben learned from this thread, it's that no one language should be chosen to the exclusion of all other, although one or maybe two should be concentrated on. However, I still say that VB should not be one of them.
From that perspective VB is no better or worse than many other languages. Not that I actually use it myself. But I have pupils who do....
WRONG!!!!!!! VB is worse than many other languages. VB in it's current state is suited only to supplement Office, and is no more than a macro scripting language. I have used it myself for that purpose although thankfully not for a while, and I think using it as a teaching aid is a very bad idea. Gary
-----Original Message----- From: 'Frank Shute' [mailto:frank@esperance-linux.co.uk] Sent: 03 February 2002 23:40 To: Grainge, Derek Cc: Schools List Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Plans for a Linux distro
On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:40:42PM -0000, Grainge, Derek wrote:
What the program looks like is a total irrelevance,
Let's reply in the same vein as your mail, Frank. Bollocks!
I gave my reasons for thinking it was bollocks. Now how about you having the courtesy to explain why my arguments are bollocks whilst seemingly to agree with most of them?
You might agree or disagree with what's required at school,
but there's no
need to piss on the argument. Especially when you're wrong.
C++ should be taught at school should it? Wrong am I?
Perhaps you should go and lie down for a while. You're obviously getting a little bit over-excited.
--
Frank
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings. -- William Blake
-- Gary Stainburn This email does not contain private or confidential material as it may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown and undisclosed purposes - Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000
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WRONG!!!!!!! VB is worse than many other languages. VB in it's current state is suited only to supplement Office, and is no more than a macro scripting language. I have used it myself for that purpose although thankfully not for a while, and I think using it as a teaching aid is a very bad idea.
er... what?!?!?! Are you talking about VBA? (Visual Basic for Applications), which is the macro scripter?? If this is a correct statement, why are there so many sodding programs written in it then? VB was designed for RAD development, and is great for the purpose. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use http://www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBPF6dCq9keFLWw1ijEQKRTgCg5RrNYuO//BGZz/3oHUpTku/qbDgAnR8D KpiE5p2C4GWId5YpVNiFtTT0 =Yopr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Monday 04 February 2002 2:39 pm, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
WRONG!!!!!!! VB is worse than many other languages. VB in it's current state is suited only to supplement Office, and is no more than a macro scripting language. I have used it myself for that purpose although thankfully not for a while, and I think using it as a teaching aid is a very bad idea.
er... what?!?!?! Are you talking about VBA? (Visual Basic for Applications), which is the macro scripter??
If this is a correct statement, why are there so many sodding programs written in it then? VB was designed for RAD development, and is great for the purpose.
Rob, let me make myself plainer, as so far I seam to be as clear as mud. VBA does what it was designed for, act as a glorified macro language - and good on it. VB, as you said, was designed to be a RAD tool, i.e. chuck it together quick and get it out. My personal opinion is that even for this purpose it is lacking. However, neither of these were the points that I was trying to make. VB/VBA is not even remotely the correct tool to use to teach programming - not even at an introductory level. It will instill the wrong philosophies and ideologies, and place the student on a false 1st step. -- Gary Stainburn This email does not contain private or confidential material as it may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown and undisclosed purposes - Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000
On Mon 04 Feb, Gary Stainburn wrote:
On Monday 04 February 2002 2:39 pm, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
WRONG!!!!!!! VB is worse than many other languages. VB in it's current state is suited only to supplement Office, and is no more than a macro scripting language. I have used it myself for that purpose although thankfully not for a while, and I think using it as a teaching aid is a very bad idea.
er... what?!?!?! Are you talking about VBA? (Visual Basic for Applications), which is the macro scripter??
If this is a correct statement, why are there so many sodding programs written in it then? VB was designed for RAD development, and is great for the purpose.
OK - here's my two penneth worth... To be honest - I'm not sure it matters what you use for teaching programming - but matters is how you teach it - and exactly what you teach. Old versions BASIC used to be condemned as it allowed poor programming practices - but of course there was nothing wrong with teaching 'good practices' with it. Indeed - I used to think that because it allowed you to do good and bad it made quite a useful tool for teaching! I would probably agree with everything said about VB - good and bad. I think it moves the emphasis away from technical programming skills to user interface skills - which is perhaps no bad thing - especially for those of lesser capabilities. Of course it is not ideal for the deeper concepts of OO applications - but these really lie outside the scope of most schools. It is certainly true that most of my A Level pupils do not have the same algorithmic programming skills today as my O-level (Remember those days?) pupils had decades ago. However, they now have to cope with a wider range of (yes perhaps shallower - but nevertheless perfectly useful and valid) IT skills. VB serves a purpose in RAD which quickly gives pupils a quick sense of achievement. As ever, the best soon learn how to use a wider range of API calls and algorithmically challenging routines. -- Alan Davies Head of Computing Birkenhead School
On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 02:39:09PM -0000, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
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WRONG!!!!!!! VB is worse than many other languages. VB in it's current state is suited only to supplement Office, and is no more than a macro scripting language. I have used it myself for that purpose although thankfully not for a while, and I think using it as a teaching aid is a very bad idea.
er... what?!?!?! Are you talking about VBA? (Visual Basic for Applications), which is the macro scripter??
If this is a correct statement, why are there so many sodding programs written in it then?
Because people don't know any better and are taught it at schools who should know better.
VB was designed for RAD development, and is great for the purpose.
If the application you're developing is designed to suck so hard it blows then it's spot on. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/ ASCII: The control code for all beginning programmers and those who would become computer literate. Etymologically, the term has come down as a contraction of the often-repeated phrase "ascii and you shall receive." -- Robb Russon
On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:28:17AM -0000, Grainge, Derek wrote:
Frank, the point I was making in a very deliberately unsubtle way was the one you rose to: your original and extensive reply dissed the opposition so hard in in such personal terms that it lost its effectiveness.
OK, it's just the way I always put my argument I guess.
Now, my reply was to one specific point regarding interface design, which was why I quoted you. The interface is extremely relevant. Look at http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm
Yes, I've seen that site before & it's well worth a look.
Regarding what should be taught in schools, I would certainly not teach C or C++ as a first language, points I made in another posting. Young kids want fast results otherwise they lose interest,
Do the kids lose interest or the teachers? They should learn that in programming in general there are no such things as fast results, it's painstaking, methodical and requires a lot of concentration if you're going to produce something worthwhile - pretending otherwise is just leading them up the garden path.
so I think that at the age of 13 or so, starlogo http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/Projects/starlogo/ is much more accessible that any professional language. [It's a Java applet!]
I'll check it out. FWIW, Smalltalk was originally designed for young people to program in and is a very pure OO language.
This begs the question of what you teach older pupils. C and C++ allow you to make lots of mistakes. C++ has never really lived up to the object promise IMO.
Most OO languages have failed to live up to the OO promise of fast development & code re-use but C++ is one of the worst in that it's little more than C with classes and suffers from a lot of what makes C a difficult language to program in.
Up until recently I taught Pascal, as a procedural language with good error checking. Now I'm not so sure. I really don't want to head down the C route, but I do want something with more 'teeth' than Logo.
Like Gary, I'd probably go with perl. It's possible to write really obscure perl code but you can write fairly formal procedural code. It's extensible and the kids can get to grips with things like regular expressions which are important whatever language you use. Perl's also available for Windows aswell as unix so you can develop/run it on either.
The point being that this is education not training. I don't expect my students to step straight into jobs with software companies. I do want them to have a basic understanding of program structures, interfaces and algorithms which they can build on wherever they go next. Any employer who offers a job solely on programming expertise picked up at school is asking for trouble! [although I can think of a couple of particular cases straight off which counter that argument]
I totally agree.
From that perspective VB is no better or worse than many other languages. Not that I actually use it myself. But I have pupils who do....
It's worse than most others. It leads to lack of understanding of the fundamentals, time wasted on making things look nice and poor programming style. It's platform dependent and costs money and gives the kids illusions of programming grandeur. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/ If people see that you mean them no harm, they'll never hurt you, nine times out of ten!
participants (5)
-
'Frank Shute' -
Alan Davies -
Gary Stainburn -
Grainge, Derek -
Robb Bloomfield