Re: [opensuse-edu] which programming languages preferred?
On Sunday 31 December 2006 15:19, garry saddington wrote:
I have a set of goals for these. 1) get them to install with a Q&A routine from an RPM. this will help make them more accessable to to people that don't know any command line.
Why not make an easy to install Windows version just for testing by 'normal' teachers. Then for production recommend SuSE - not difficult to justify (security, stability etc.).
I can't think of a good reason to waste time with a windows anything. except maybe shades ;)
2) get them to share an LDAP directory ,
Not for the amount of data that needs to be held. Use an agreed upon central db like Postgres.
not looking to move the stored data anywhere until stage three , just looking to make a sharable demographics interface, if Centre was the main interface then Moodle and OpenBiblio could be configured to use Centre as their authentication and user repository , Yes? This would also allow each product to remain independent until stage three, Yes?
This is necessary to reduce data redundancy and inaccuracy, it would also bypass the need for a SIF (student information frameworks) agent which is soon to be a requirement in the states,
Doesn't surprise me.
( I think there is a similar requirement growing in the UK, possibly in the EU as well all though I don't follow there EDU regs.)
SIF is pointless stupidity geared at allowing commercial interests to continue to fatten themselves on education's meagre resources (and it costs for SIF as well!), apart from many other more technical pointlessnesses. If this was real business (and not education) I suspect that SIF would be a complete non-starter and even a laughing stock.
No argument here
3) blend them together into one interface. To create a Hybrid that would include the setup from the "Open School Server" , this last goal would set the stage for a commercial version that both Novell and the good folks at Extis.de could support.
It may be better to hang on for a while to see if any of the in development MIS software ever gets to the point that it can compete with the likes of SIMS by Capita (in England of course).
waiting isn't helping. Many schools are right now looking for a replacement for things like WInschool which isn't NCLB compliant and has already been decommissioned by Pearson. At least with a program like Centre we can make it meet the needs and maybe some regulations too. I have seen more than one thread on this idea. google search SIS+Moodle and you will see them, even a company selling the service of using Moodles API to sync data. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
I can't think of a good reason to waste time with a windows anything. except maybe shades ;) One of the main obstacles to anything open source in English schools (and this is the only area I know about) are the teachers themeselves. Recently, two senior employees of BECTA visitited my school to see how they could help us run the new key stage 3 on screen tests because we use Ubuntu exclsively and the idiots (RM)
On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 18:15 -0500, James Tremblay wrote: programming the tests would not support us. Anyway, during the discussion about the take up of Linux in English schools one of these gentlemen (who are extremely aware of what goes on in schools) said: "It does not matter how much anyone in a school wants Linux to succeed in that school, the teachers can always find a way to make sure that it does not" And from their experience this is what has happened! The main reason is that the teachers are used to Windows and very reluctant to change to anything else. This is why I suggest a Windows install initially will have more penetration than if you go Linux from the outset. Remove as many barriers first and then gradually add them back as you win converts.
waiting isn't helping. Many schools are right now looking for a replacement for things like WInschool which isn't NCLB compliant and has already been decommissioned by Pearson. At least with a program like Centre we can make it meet the needs and maybe some regulations too. I have seen more than one thread on this idea. google search SIS+Moodle and you will see them, even a company selling the service of using Moodles API to sync data.
I totally agree with the need for speed but this is probelmatic as most open source developers have day jobs and therefore there is a finite speed at which these things can proceed. How do you envisage the work on yours ideas will be undertaken? Kind Regards Garry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 01 January 2007 07:06, garry saddington wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 18:15 -0500, James Tremblay wrote:
I can't think of a good reason to waste time with a windows anything. except maybe shades ;)
One of the main obstacles to anything open source in English schools (and this is the only area I know about) are the teachers themeselves. Recently, two senior employees of BECTA visitited my school to see how they could help us run the new key stage 3 on screen tests because we use Ubuntu exclsively and the idiots (RM) programming the tests would not support us. Anyway, during the discussion about the take up of Linux in English schools one of these gentlemen (who are extremely aware of what goes on in schools) said: "It does not matter how much anyone in a school wants Linux to succeed in that school, the teachers can always find a way to make sure that it does not" And from their experience this is what has happened! The main reason is that the teachers are used to Windows and very reluctant to change to anything else. This is why I suggest a Windows install initially will have more penetration than if you go Linux from the outset. Remove as many barriers first and then gradually add them back as you win converts.
You and I seem to be on a different thought process about these programs. There are all web based programs and therefore the host makes no difference. The staff and students in my schools are still mostly on M$ machines and until I have a decent Client for Netware, are going to stay that way. What I want to affect is the way schools "run" there records keeping operations, If we can build an OpenSource admin suite, and the parts already exist, then we should try and help set a standard in place. Teachers in general are aware of the need for standards and good records keeping, as exampled here by Judy Jones http://teachersnetwork.org/ntol/howto/implement/standards.htm what they need is an easy to use and commonly available method to help make those records mean something, to them and the teachers those students move on to. Your comments seem to be generated from an experience of trying to move the desktop to quickly, I have not tried to move the desktops at all. I have however, introduced at the elementary level, LTSP on SLED and it is taking off like wildflowers, because with it, I took the student to computer ratio from 7:1 to 4:1 and my district is on average 2.8:1 due to a recurring purchasing plan I laid out 6 years ago. This plan leverages loans\leases to offset the schools buying power by reducing the yearly impact to 33K. By shifting the usage paradigm from locally installed software to web based lessons, we have increased daily computer usage 3 fold. I'm not asking that this be done tommorrow, just asking that people join in and begin to participate, as you have done. Please do continue to keep me on my feet. Thanks James Tremblay -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
You and I seem to be on a different thought process about these programs. I do not think that you fully understand where I am coming from. I am well aware of the nature of all these types of programs, but teachers must 'try before they buy' as it were. If you are going to tell them
that they need to have a full Linux install before they can test (I know you can always have a web based demo but these are usually, in my opinion, much less than optimal at demonstrating the full potential of the software) any programs in-house, then you are going to put many off even testing the product. If they can download, install and test the software on their teacher's laptop you will have a much better chance of persuading them to install a production server.
There are all web based programs and therefore the host makes no difference. The staff and students in my schools are still mostly on M$ machines and until I have a decent Client for Netware, are going to stay that way. What I want to affect is the way schools "run" there records keeping operations, If we can build an OpenSource admin suite, and the parts already exist, If you are in USA? have you tried Open Admin for schools? http://richtech.ca/openadmin/ Or are you looking for more than this? Your comments seem to be generated from an experience of trying to move the desktop to quickly, On the contrary we have been running Linux on the desktop for four years and recently we went totally Linux everywhere and all ICT teaching has been on Linux for three years. When I speak of Linux uptake in schools I am speaking about experiences of other schools not my own. We use Zope and Plone for Intranet/Learning platform and our MIS(SIS) has been developed by myself using Zope, Postgres,Apache and many other smaller pieces of supporting software and is fully English CBDS compliant. I will be releasing it soon, but when I do there will be a Windows version and a Linux version for the reasons I have already espoused. My comments are largely through despair at how intransigent some so called intelligent people can be! Regards Garry Saddington Skegness Grammar School, England
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 01 January 2007 12:12, garry saddington wrote:
You and I seem to be on a different thought process about these programs.
I do not think that you fully understand where I am coming from. I am well aware of the nature of all these types of programs, but teachers must 'try before they buy' as it were. If you are going to tell them that they need to have a full Linux install before they can test (I know you can always have a web based demo but these are usually, in my opinion, much less than optimal at demonstrating the full potential of the software) any programs in-house, then you are going to put many off even testing the product. If they can download, install and test the software on their teacher's laptop you will have a much better chance of persuading them to install a production server.
how are they less impressive? if a program is web based, it's web based.
There are all web based programs and therefore the host makes no difference. The staff and students in my schools are still mostly on M$ machines and until I have a decent Client for Netware, are going to stay that way. What I want to affect is the way schools "run" there records keeping operations, If we can build an OpenSource admin suite, and the parts already exist,
If you are in USA? have you tried Open Admin for schools? http://richtech.ca/openadmin/ Or are you looking for more than this?
I have looked at this and it is nice, I am looking to use a COTS (common off the shelf) approach to building a hybrid suite. To make this suite easier to manage I would like to use a common programming language and common DB Centre is working on a MySQL port that would eliminate the last inconsistency. all will be LAMP products.
Your comments seem to be generated from an experience of trying to move the desktop to quickly,
On the contrary we have been running Linux on the desktop for four years and recently we went totally Linux everywhere and all ICT teaching has been on Linux for three years. When I speak of Linux uptake in schools I am speaking about experiences of other schools not my own. We use Zope and Plone for Intranet/Learning platform and our MIS(SIS) has been developed by myself using Zope, Postgres,Apache and many other smaller pieces of supporting software and is fully English CBDS compliant. I will be releasing it soon, but when I do there will be a Windows version and a Linux version for the reasons I have already espoused.
are you working with SchoolTool? Would you like to distribute it with full support of an OS. We can help you optimize it for OpenSUSE.
My comments are largely through despair at how intransigent some so called intelligent people can be! Regards Garry Saddington Skegness Grammar School, England -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-01-01 at 12:47 -0500, James Tremblay wrote:
how are they less impressive? if a program is web based, it's web based. yes but the server must reside somewhere;)
There are all web based programs and therefore the host makes no difference. The staff and students in my schools are still mostly on M$ machines and until I have a decent Client for Netware, are going to stay that way. What I want to affect is the way schools "run" there records keeping operations, If we can build an OpenSource admin suite, and the parts already exist,
If you are in USA? have you tried Open Admin for schools? http://richtech.ca/openadmin/ Or are you looking for more than this?
are you working with SchoolTool? No, I work in relative isolation. Although Schooltool is a very laudible effort, their choice of using Zope's ZODB to store data rather than a full blown RDBMS will, I expect hold up their efforts. Would you like to distribute it with full support of an OS. We can help you optimize it for OpenSUSE. I'm not sure at this point but we have had ScholarPack running perfectly on OpenSuSE at school.
My project is named ScholarPack, I did have a web demo and a website active until last year but I have had no time to maintain it properly as I have been getting ScholarPack ready for a release - I will not release it until I think it is ready (no 0.0.1 iterations!) I have just started to install a production server to hold a new website and a demo of the features of ScholarPack. I will let this list know when it is finished. Regards Garry Saddington Skegness Grammar School, England -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
James Tremblay wrote:
On Sunday 31 December 2006 15:19, garry saddington wrote:
Why not make an easy to install Windows version just for testing by 'normal' teachers. Then for production recommend SuSE - not difficult to justify (security, stability etc.). I can't think of a good reason to waste time with a windows anything. except maybe shades ;) and You and I seem to be on a different thought process about these programs.
As I read what you say, James, 'Doze is a trivial issue, not worth getting steamed up about: all the basic tools can be OSS and available across platforms. That seems to me to be the fundamental benefit of an exercise like this: to escape from proprietary limitations. The only Windows-specific; Linux-specific; or, I believe, Novell-specific, elements should be the executables for the tools, plus the packaging - relatively trivial issues in themselves. Which brings me back to the original question about what languages and tools to use... I was once almost commissioned to write a system for a local public school, to provide a system for room bookings, both for classes and external letting. My criteria for which tools to choose were: a) that I was already at least somewhat familiar with them; and b) that I could develop the system on my Linux kit, run the trial version on the 'Doze workstation in the office, then migrate it to the school's Novell servers. From those two criteria, I came up with Apache, MySQL and PHP. Aren't those criteria good ones here (there are probably other tools that fit)? Apart from anything else, if the system can run under 'Doze, then it becomes a step on the migration journey; if it won't, then it is not an option for anyone who hasn't, or isn't ready to, migrate: regrettably, quite a lot of potential users. (And server versus client doesn't distinguish anything: the system can, given the right OSS tools, run - either for demo/test purposes, or as the final tool - on whatever an establishment uses, both on the desk top and in the server room.) The main demand for input is into the active code, repackaging as both .zip and .tar.gz (or whatever) is trivial, so why not do it? Just my two-pennorth. Roger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 01 January 2007 20:09, Roger Beaumont wrote:
James Tremblay wrote:
On Sunday 31 December 2006 15:19, garry saddington wrote:
Why not make an easy to install Windows version just for testing by 'normal' teachers. Then for production recommend SuSE - not difficult to justify (security, stability etc.).
I can't think of a good reason to waste time with a windows anything. except maybe shades ;)
and
You and I seem to be on a different thought process about these programs.
As I read what you say, James, 'Doze is a trivial issue, not worth getting steamed up about: all the basic tools can be OSS and available across platforms. That seems to me to be the fundamental benefit of an exercise like this: to escape from proprietary limitations. The only Windows-specific; Linux-specific; or, I believe, Novell-specific, elements should be the executables for the tools, plus the packaging - relatively trivial issues in themselves.
Which brings me back to the original question about what languages and tools to use... I was once almost commissioned to write a system for a local public school, to provide a system for room bookings, both for classes and external letting. My criteria for which tools to choose were: a) that I was already at least somewhat familiar with them; and b) that I could develop the system on my Linux kit, run the trial version on the 'Doze workstation in the office, then migrate it to the school's Novell servers. From those two criteria, I came up with Apache, MySQL and PHP.
I too feel that a AMP approach makes the best sense , which is why I'm looking to optimize the 3 programs chosen for installation and compatibility enhancements.
Aren't those criteria good ones here (there are probably other tools that fit)? Apart from anything else, if the system can run under 'Doze, then it becomes a step on the migration journey; if it won't, then it is not an option for anyone who hasn't, or isn't ready to, migrate: regrettably, quite a lot of potential users. (And server versus client doesn't distinguish anything: the system can, given the right OSS tools, run - either for demo/test purposes, or as the final tool - on whatever an establishment uses, both on the desk top and in the server room.)
I think we are loosing sight of one the goals I have outlined on the website, that is that, this will be an add-on installation media for OpenSUSE . I believe that an effective demo senario would be to download the current version of Opensuse and the EDU-CD add-on media and build it all very quickly and easily, leaving the customer with an installed SIS(Centre), LMS(Moodle), LAS(OpenBiblio). Well established and respected education management suite. The product I'm after isn't new, it's an enhancement to these programs to make them work together. The OpenSUSE\Novell team shouldn't have to fork anything, just donate some "Identity management" programming. just enough to make them more compatible with the IMS ( http://www.imsglobal.org/ ) standard and LDAP like Moodle is already. This will make them more compatible with Novell's e-directory by default. After that it's up to the original programmers to make them load on 'doze -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 01 January 2007 06:30, James Tremblay wrote:
On Monday 01 January 2007 07:06, garry saddington wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 18:15 -0500, James Tremblay wrote:
I can't think of a good reason to waste time with a windows anything. except maybe shades ;)
Heh - good one.
One of the main obstacles to anything open source in English schools (and this is the only area I know about) are the teachers themeselves. Recently, two senior employees of BECTA visitited my school to see how they could help us run the new key stage 3 on screen tests because we use Ubuntu exclsively and the idiots (RM) programming the tests would not support us. Anyway, during the discussion about the take up of Linux in English schools one of these gentlemen (who are extremely aware of what goes on in schools) said: "It does not matter how much anyone in a school wants Linux to succeed in that school, the teachers can always find a way to make sure that it does not" And from their experience this is what has happened! The main reason is that the teachers are used to Windows and very reluctant to change to anything else. This is why I suggest a Windows install initially will have more penetration than if you go Linux from the outset. Remove as many barriers first and then gradually add them back as you win converts.
Out here in California, the situation is not quite that bad. We are very used to a mixed environnment since many schools were supplied by Apple Computer with IIe and Macintosh systems over the years. This still occasionally happens. My son's school has almost 100 MacBooks (or whatever the Macintosh laptop is these days.) mixed with IIgs, Macintosh, and various Wintendo computers.
You and I seem to be on a different thought process about these programs. There are all web based programs and therefore the host makes no difference. The staff and students in my schools are still mostly on M$ machines and until I have a decent Client for Netware, are going to stay that way. What I want to affect is the way schools "run" there records keeping operations, If we can build an OpenSource admin suite, and the parts already exist, then we should try and help set a standard in place.
Being web-based, this will be an easier task to accomplish. With a cost of zero for the software, there is one less argument against such an implementation.
I'm not asking that this be done tommorrow, just asking that people join in and begin to participate, as you have done. Please do continue to keep me on my feet. Thanks James Tremblay
Heh! -- kai - theperfectreign@yahoo.com www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com www.filesite.org || www.donutmonster.com wo ist der ort für den ehrlichsten kuss ich weiss, dass ich ihn für uns finden muss... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
I think we are loosing sight of one the goals I have outlined on the website, that is that, this will be an add-on installation media for OpenSUSE . I believe that an effective demo senario would be to download the current version of Opensuse and the EDU-CD add-on media and build it all very quickly and easily, leaving the customer with an installed SIS(Centre), LMS(Moodle), LAS(OpenBiblio). Well established and respected education management suite. ... Ah, I see. I misunderstood. I was thinking of something that would, of course, run under SUSE (and no reason why it shouldn't be packaged
James Tremblay wrote: ... therewith), but was primarily aimed at everyone in need of escaping from all proprietory strangleholds. With all due respect - and no hint of criticism of SUSE - but something SUSE-specific (and the devil take the rest) seems to me little better than something M$-specific (and ditto). IMHO what the education sector needs is an OSS product that is platform independent - so I'm talking about my aspirations, not yours. Good luck anyway; SUSE-specific sounds a lot closer to my aspirations than any of the other alternatives I've heard about. Good networking, Roger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 22:03 +0000, Roger wrote:
With all due respect - and no hint of criticism of SUSE - but something SUSE-specific (and the devil take the rest) seems to me little better than something M$-specific (and ditto). IMHO what the education sector needs is an OSS product that is platform independent - so I'm talking about my aspirations, not yours.
Good luck anyway; SUSE-specific sounds a lot closer to my aspirations than any of the other alternatives I've heard about.
The OSS programs I am talking about already have installation instructions for M$, so the Devil has his playground too. :) James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-edu+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-edu+help@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
garry saddington -
James Tremblay -
Kai Ponte -
Roger -
Roger Beaumont