RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

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Grainge, Derek

4 Oct 2003 4 Oct '03

13:19

On Sat, Oct 04, 2003 at 11:20:33AM +0100, ian wrote:

...

Even nicer if it can read MS Access files, which makes migration a lot easier.

Access is a proprietary format. I doubt forms/queries/reports will ever be transferable because of the different document models each application uses. But It's easy to exchange data and structures using ODBC/SQL. All decent databases support it. And if you look at database backends like mySQL or PostgreSQL, they too use their own proprietary formats. There has been talk of XML as a 'standard' format. What we're crying out for is a nice front end for querying editing and displaying data - assuming of course it also contains tools which simplify the creation of the database itself. And as soon as you create a fancy front end, you have to store it - in a proprietary way of course :-) -- Derek Grainge Microtechnology Wellington College -- ******************************************************************************** All mail sent and received may be examined to prevent transmission of unacceptable material. Wellington College does not accept responsibility for email contents. Problems to postmaster@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk. Website: http://www.wellington-college.berks.sch.uk ********************************************************************************

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MJ Ray

4 Oct 4 Oct

14:47

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On 2003-10-04 14:22:03 +0100 "Grainge, Derek" wrote:

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What we're crying out for is a nice front end for querying editing and displaying data - assuming of course it also contains tools which simplify the creation of the database itself. And as soon as you create a fancy front end, you have to store it - in a proprietary way of course :-)

Indeed. I was quite impressed with the quick demonstration of knoda(?) that Garry gave me when I visited him earlier this year, but I've not had time to investigate it further since. I'd love to hear comments from people who have evaluated it for teaching use. I've used pg_access in the past, but that is rather limited and would need quite some work to bring it up to scratch. It does have the benefit of being in TCL, which makes it a bit more cross-platform than knoda, though. Beyond that, you seem to get into full-blown visual programming environments at the moment, which is further than most schools need to go. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/

garry saddington

15:23

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On Saturday 04 October 2003 15:48, MJ Ray wrote:

...

On 2003-10-04 14:22:03 +0100 "Grainge, Derek"

wrote:

...
What we're crying out for is a nice front end for querying editing and displaying data - assuming of course it also contains tools which simplify the creation of the database itself. And as soon as you create a fancy front end, you have to store it - in a proprietary way of course :-)

Indeed. I was quite impressed with the quick demonstration of knoda(?) that Garry gave me when I visited him earlier this year, but I've not had time to investigate it further since. I'd love to hear comments from people who have evaluated it for teaching use.

I've used pg_access in the past, but that is rather limited and would need quite some work to bring it up to scratch. It does have the benefit of being in TCL, which makes it a bit more cross-platform than knoda, though. Beyond that, you seem to get into full-blown visual programming environments at the moment, which is further than most schools need to go.

I have used Knoda for AS and A-level project work and it seems to do all that is required. The only problem is that I am not sure that the examiners know what to make of it judging from some of the comments from moderators, but I am in the process of getting this sorted. They have really only ever seen Access and so are not used to the different design views in Knoda. Knoda differs from Access in that students have to write their own queries in SQL and this gives them a deeper understanding of the underlying table structures and also gives them some concrete skills from a qualification (ICT) that does not give them any experience of any programming or scripting, and seems to have evolved its practical aspects from parallel evolution with MS office. regards garry

...

-- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/

ian

19:25

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 17:16, garry saddington wrote:

...

I have used Knoda for AS and A-level project work and it seems to do all that is required. The only problem is that I am not sure that the examiners know what to make of it judging from some of the comments from moderators, but I am in the process of getting this sorted. They have really only ever seen Access and so are not used to the different design views in Knoda. Knoda differs from Access in that students have to write their own queries in SQL and this gives them a deeper understanding of the underlying table structures and also gives them some concrete skills from a qualification (ICT) that does not give them any experience of any programming or scripting, and seems to have evolved its practical aspects from parallel evolution with MS office. regards

Thing is we need something that is suitable for teachers who are not that expert for KS3 and KS4. If anything they will know Access so even if a bit distasteful it needs consideration. The OO.o project is committed to getting such a database solution. I have already commissioned an initial feasibility with Birmingham Uni. computer science department and we have an established dialogue with Sun engineers working on the OO.o project. However, this isn't going to happen overnight and its likely that some significant funding will need to be found. I have to let my head rule my heart to an extent on this. I can't afford to simply spend time doing these things because I have to earn a living too. Every day I spend out doing something like meeting the people at Birmingham Uni. costs the company £400. Although I got a grant for £3000 to commission the study it takes time to get these grants and to organise what is to be done with the money. As for the conference, February half term would be a good time I think as long as its not the week of the 23rd. A venue in London is likely to be best attended. I run many education courses and you can pretty well guarantee London courses will run. Very much less certain in other locations. Who do we want to get there? Just us old hands who don't need convincing or some new blood? If we are looking for new blood I think we have to make a good impression. First impressions matter. -- ian

garry saddington

21:02

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On Saturday 04 October 2003 20:28, ian wrote:

...

On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 17:16, garry saddington wrote:

...
I have used Knoda for AS and A-level project work and it seems to do all that is required. The only problem is that I am not sure that the examiners know what to make of it judging from some of the comments from moderators, but I am in the process of getting this sorted. They have really only ever seen Access and so are not used to the different design views in Knoda. Knoda differs from Access in that students have to write their own queries in SQL and this gives them a deeper understanding of the underlying table structures and also gives them some concrete skills from a qualification (ICT) that does not give them any experience of any programming or scripting, and seems to have evolved its practical aspects from parallel evolution with MS office. regards

Thing is we need something that is suitable for teachers who are not that expert for KS3 and KS4. If anything they will know Access so even if a bit distasteful it needs consideration. The OO.o project is committed to getting such a database solution. I have already commissioned an initial feasibility with Birmingham Uni. computer science department and we have an established dialogue with Sun engineers working on the OO.o project. However, this isn't going to happen overnight and its likely that some significant funding will need to be found. I have to let my head rule my heart to an extent on this. I can't afford to simply spend time doing these things because I have to earn a living too. Every day I spend out doing something like meeting the people at Birmingham Uni. costs the company £400. Although I got a grant for £3000 to commission the study it takes time to get these grants and to organise what is to be done with the money.

I know OO has database access that is fairly mature and I do believe that it has a role to play in certain aspects (mail merge and basic database access at table level) but it does not provide the Access-like metaphor with easily designed forms and reports that Knoda does at present, which will, with the upcoming Python scripting support provide a very useable Access replacement. I have KS3 and KS4 teachers using Knoda without a problem. Using native SQL is more logical and understandable than the drag and drop methods used by OO and Access. Why don't you give Horst Knorr some reward for his work instead of spending money on feasability studies when worthwhile solutions already exist? Kind regards garry

ian

22:05

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 22:56, garry saddington wrote:

...

On Saturday 04 October 2003 20:28, ian wrote:

...
On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 17:16, garry saddington wrote:

...
I have used Knoda for AS and A-level project work and it seems to do all that is required. The only problem is that I am not sure that the examiners know what to make of it judging from some of the comments from moderators, but I am in the process of getting this sorted. They have really only ever seen Access and so are not used to the different design views in Knoda. Knoda differs from Access in that students have to write their own queries in SQL and this gives them a deeper understanding of the underlying table structures and also gives them some concrete skills from a qualification (ICT) that does not give them any experience of any programming or scripting, and seems to have evolved its practical aspects from parallel evolution with MS office. regards

Thing is we need something that is suitable for teachers who are not that expert for KS3 and KS4. If anything they will know Access so even if a bit distasteful it needs consideration. The OO.o project is committed to getting such a database solution. I have already commissioned an initial feasibility with Birmingham Uni. computer science department and we have an established dialogue with Sun engineers working on the OO.o project. However, this isn't going to happen overnight and its likely that some significant funding will need to be found. I have to let my head rule my heart to an extent on this. I can't afford to simply spend time doing these things because I have to earn a living too. Every day I spend out doing something like meeting the people at Birmingham Uni. costs the company £400. Although I got a grant for £3000 to commission the study it takes time to get these grants and to organise what is to be done with the money.

I know OO has database access that is fairly mature and I do believe that it has a role to play in certain aspects (mail merge and basic database access at table level) but it does not provide the Access-like metaphor with easily designed forms and reports that Knoda does at present,

No, that is why we are looking at developing it. It has to be cross platform though because we are not going to move everyone off Windows immediately. That is the real strength of OO.o, it provides a bridge to Linux making migration easier.

...

which will, with the upcoming Python scripting support provide a very useable Access replacement. I have KS3 and KS4 teachers using Knoda without a problem. Using native SQL is more logical and understandable than the drag and drop methods used by OO and Access.

To you perhaps, but not to the many teachers who think you need to be a programmer to do HTML and produce websites using Publisher. The reality is that most teachers want an Office suite and one that seems to them similar to MS Office.

...

Why don't you give Horst Knorr some reward for his work instead of spending money on feasability studies when worthwhile solutions already exist?

Because a) I don't know who Horst Knorr is, b) I'm the education lead for the OO.o project so I have some loyalty to it, c) The grant was for the purpose of a feasibility study not for general development, d) I know its going to be easier to get most schools I deal with to use OO.o with a simple and easy database on Windows than it is to get them to use the KDE desktop. e) I do have quite a few using the KDE desktop so I can use one solution to satisfy both sets of needs. If there is a Knoda port to Windows it might be worth looking at but I think that the best chance of getting people off Microsoft products and hence over to FLOSS is to do it via OO.o so to me that's where my priorities and my money and resources will go first. Regards, -- ian

garry saddington

5 Oct 5 Oct

08:21

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On Saturday 04 October 2003 23:08, ian wrote:

...

On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 22:56, garry saddington wrote:

...
On Saturday 04 October 2003 20:28, ian wrote:

...
On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 17:16, garry saddington wrote:

...
I have used Knoda for AS and A-level project work and it seems to do all that is required. The only problem is that I am not sure that the examiners know what to make of it judging from some of the comments from moderators, but I am in the process of getting this sorted. They have really only ever seen Access and so are not used to the different design views in Knoda. Knoda differs from Access in that students have to write their own queries in SQL and this gives them a deeper understanding of the underlying table structures and also gives them some concrete skills from a qualification (ICT) that does not give them any experience of any programming or scripting, and seems to have evolved its practical aspects from parallel evolution with MS office. regards

Thing is we need something that is suitable for teachers who are not that expert for KS3 and KS4. If anything they will know Access so even if a bit distasteful it needs consideration. The OO.o project is committed to getting such a database solution. I have already commissioned an initial feasibility with Birmingham Uni. computer science department and we have an established dialogue with Sun engineers working on the OO.o project. However, this isn't going to happen overnight and its likely that some significant funding will need to be found. I have to let my head rule my heart to an extent on this. I can't afford to simply spend time doing these things because I have to earn a living too. Every day I spend out doing something like meeting the people at Birmingham Uni. costs the company £400. Although I got a grant for £3000 to commission the study it takes time to get these grants and to organise what is to be done with the money.

I know OO has database access that is fairly mature and I do believe that it has a role to play in certain aspects (mail merge and basic database access at table level) but it does not provide the Access-like metaphor with easily designed forms and reports that Knoda does at present,

No, that is why we are looking at developing it. It has to be cross platform though because we are not going to move everyone off Windows immediately. That is the real strength of OO.o, it provides a bridge to Linux making migration easier.

...
which will, with the upcoming Python scripting support provide a very useable Access replacement. I have KS3 and KS4 teachers using Knoda without a problem. Using native SQL is more logical and understandable than the drag and drop methods used by OO and Access.

To you perhaps, but not to the many teachers who think you need to be a programmer to do HTML and produce websites using Publisher. The reality is that most teachers want an Office suite and one that seems to them similar to MS Office.

...
Why don't you give Horst Knorr some reward for his work instead of spending money on feasability studies when worthwhile solutions already exist?

Because a) I don't know who Horst Knorr is, b) I'm the education lead for the OO.o project so I have some loyalty to it, c) The grant was for the purpose of a feasibility study not for general development, d) I know its going to be easier to get most schools I deal with to use OO.o with a simple and easy database on Windows than it is to get them to use the KDE desktop. e) I do have quite a few using the KDE desktop so I can use one solution to satisfy both sets of needs.

If there is a Knoda port to Windows it might be worth looking at but I think that the best chance of getting people off Microsoft products and hence over to FLOSS is to do it via OO.o so to me that's where my priorities and my money and resources will go first.

Thanks for your replies Ian, it has been an interesting exchange and I agree with your arguments regarding OO.I am not trying to detract from the project. Indeed, we use it throughout the school for our main office suite both in our Windows room and our two Linux rooms for exactly the reasons you state, and with the improvements in 1.1 we may use it for all our KS3 and KS4 database work. What I was trying to point out is that there is already a useable database solution, albeit running only on Linux at the moment. Perhaps I am being a little too simplistic when Open source to me means open source all the way, including the OS? By the way we do not use KDE but Icewm and students take to it very quickly and intuitively. My only concern is why are the teachers you mention teaching ICT, although I have come across this attitude with some younger pupils, one asked me "Why do we have to learn to use a word processor, can't I just use Publisher instead?" If I can be of any help to you, please do not hesitate to let me know. kind regards garry

ian

10:38

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 10:16, garry saddington wrote:

...

Thanks for your replies Ian, it has been an interesting exchange and I agree with your arguments regarding OO.I am not trying to detract from the project. Indeed, we use it throughout the school for our main office suite both in our Windows room and our two Linux rooms for exactly the reasons you state, and with the improvements in 1.1 we may use it for all our KS3 and KS4 database work.

Great, would yu be willing to be interviewed by someone as a case study? Sun are looking for examples of OO.o deployment for case studies at the moment. If you are willing, E-mail Ryan.Singer@Sun.com as he is compiling the studies.

...

What I was trying to point out is that there is already a useable database solution, albeit running only on Linux at the moment.

That is useful because we do have a need for this in some other schools. I'll get it publicised.

...

Perhaps I am being a little too simplistic when Open source to me means open source all the way, including the OS?

That is what we are aiming for but we need to get there and we need a variety of paths to suit different people. There are many roads to Nirvana. If we crack general productivity tools ie office, there is very little reason for big corporates/governments to stay with Windows. Once that happens, the valuable applications for education will get ported. Most won't be FLOSS to start with so I see a general order of Office - Operating system - all the other specialist apps. That's why I think the first priority is to put the limited resources into the Office bit rather than worrying about Interactive Whiteboards etc. Ok, if someone has a specific interest but I have limited time so I have picked to back the thing likely to have the biggest effect.

...

By the way we do not use KDE but Icewm and students take to it very quickly and intuitively.

Choice is good. Sounds a bit paradoxical to then back OO.o but Once OO.o establishes an open file format it opens things up for every other project.

...

My only concern is why are the teachers you mention teaching ICT, although I have come across this attitude with some younger pupils, one asked me "Why do we have to learn to use a word processor, can't I just use Publisher instead?"

There are a lot of teachers teaching ICT who really know very little about it or are very set in their ways. That's just the way it is and we have to take this into account when marketing FLOSS.

...

If I can be of any help to you, please do not hesitate to let me know.

Join the OO.o Educ project and start some kids on theINGOTs.org certification scheme. We have an aim to get as many OO.o CDs to students around the world as possible starting with a launch for OO.o day on the 13th October, the third anniversary of the project. Anyone is welcome to join in, simply download the ISO burn some discs. (There are proper labels for download on the OO.o website) and give them to kids, or send them to local schools. Get the kids involved. I have made it a requirement for the Silver INGOT qualification that kids can burn a CD and send it to someone in need (citizenship) so this fits that model. If you want to send me discs you can and I'll get them to a contact I have in Malaysia who can use them in schools where there is no access to broadband. If you take part in theINGOTs ICT certification scheme you can help generate income for free software projects. Info on the web site www.theINGOTs.org. We already have two EAZs and probably 40 schools committed to INGOTs and growing all the time. Most are schools applying for specialist schools status and they are building certification targets into their development plans. To subscribe to the OO.o Education list educ-subscribe@marketing.openoffice.org The new ISO for OO.o 1.1 is at ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/openoffice/contrib/iso/1.1.0/ or ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/incoming/ (Seems Eberhardt had to go somewhere, and may not have had time to put it in the correct place. You could also try PlanetMirror ftp://ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/openoffice/contrib/iso/ Hope this helps. -- ian

MJ Ray

11:55

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On 2003-10-04 23:08:33 +0100 ian wrote:

...

Because a) I don't know who Horst Knorr is, b) I'm the education lead for the OO.o project so I have some loyalty to it, c) The grant was for the purpose of a feasibility study not for general development, d) I know its going to be easier to get most schools I deal with to use OO.o with a simple and easy database on Windows than it is to get them to use the KDE desktop. e) I do have quite a few using the KDE desktop so I can use one solution to satisfy both sets of needs.

Please can you try to make sure that the OO.o developers are aware of knoda and consider porting/integration with OO.o? Does anyone know if that has been suggested? It may not be viable, but if it can be used, that would probably be a very good thing. As you say, resources are quite limited at the moment, so shouldn't be wasted because of ignorance or an attack of Not Invented Here. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/

Mark Evans

19:54

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open Source in Education Conference cancelled

On Sat, Oct 04, 2003 at 02:22:03PM +0100, Grainge, Derek wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 04, 2003 at 11:20:33AM +0100, ian wrote:

...
Even nicer if it can read MS Access files, which makes migration a lot easier.

Access is a proprietary format. I doubt forms/queries/reports will ever be transferable because of the different document models each application uses. But It's easy to exchange data and structures using ODBC/SQL. All decent databases support it.

As does Word, Excel & PowerPoint. Being able to import "legarcy data" in an easy way is important. Especially when dealing with teachers and teenagers. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

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garry saddington
Grainge, Derek
ian
Mark Evans
MJ Ray