On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 10:49:46AM +0100, Phillip Marsden at WYLUG wrote:

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According to Becta some 500 out of 27000 secondary schools are using open source in some way.

This is 1.85% which, in my book, this means not very much. The point made by the Becta man was that 150 of these are in Powys. This sounds like a 'political' decision. The other 350 are presumably testing it in some way. That means there are 26500 NOT using open source computing.

So let's knock off the 150 schools that have employed it as a `political' decision. How many of the Windows schools do we knock off who have also employed it as a `political' decision? You've failed to address my contention that business use of linux was low because of the supposed difficulties with installation and the lack of linux expertise. It isn't now but the same straw men are trotted out when it comes to schools. Those difficulties are being overcome by businesses and I don't see why they shouldn't be overcome when it comes to schools.

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This is nonsense with all due respect. I use a 300MHz Celeron as a workstation and performance is not an issue. I also use a 486 as a mail and news server and for masquerading/firewall. OK it wouldn't hack it on a network of any size but it could still be put to use.

I am talking about gui use (the point that Dave Fisher was making). In this context the command line, or server use, or any other non-gui use is irrelevant. Even my old 286 Elonex runs fast when running Xenix without a gui.

I'm talking about a 300MHz machine being used for workstation with GUI and a 486 without GUI as a server, both perform satisfactorily. Now tell me of another server OS that can be usefully used on a 486? You just don't need 500MHz pentiums for GUIfied workstations, your original assertion, my direct experience contradicts that; and as other's have pointed out what about thin clients? School children don't need a lightning fast machine, after all it takes them an age to punch in a sentence.

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Linux detractor appear to have this obsession with command lines, ignoring that every version of Windows other than ME also has a command line.

I am not a Linux detractor. I have used Unix for 15 years mostly on the command line, and love it. It has provided me with a good living, and is not a hobby or evangelical crusade to me. I will use anything that a client wishes to pay me to develop in - I live in the real world, and as far as computers and software goes I have few 'hates', such as are apparent amongst the Linux fraternity.

If I used what clients asked me to use I'd be using Windows all the time. But I refuse, when their Windows machines perform less than adequately I get the blame irrespective of the inadequacies of Windows for most purposes. That's bad business for me. It's not an evangelical crusade for me either, it's just better than the alternatives in most cases and I wan't to make money. In the long run I see the proprietary stuff as largely doomed.

It is not a case of ignoring that Windows has a command line, but that Dave Fisher made the point that his investigations showed that: 'In short, any offering must be completely and simply packaged (Mac-like) and fully supported.' If there is anybody who thinks that Linux is yet at this Mac-like stage, then they must be living on another planet to me.

If ease of use is the primary consideration then use a Mac. I can't see any sense in trying to bash linux into shape as a Mac-a-like.

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This evidence that Acorns are still useful machines seems to be in contradiction to your earlier assertion that a feeble machine with a command line is of no practical use.

The Acorn RiscPC is not a feeble command line machine. It is a fast gui machine which can hold its own with many Pentium machines. It uses the StrongArm processor which Intel are happy to get development & production licences for.

What sort of development culture does it have behind it? I'm afraid I know little about them.

BTW, I made no such assertion. DTMW :-) --------

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One of the major myths here being that Windows is easy to set up. Let alone the claim that it is easy to use, something many staff here prove wrong.

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What are the costs and time involved in pampering a MS based system to actually work?

I never said that MS based systems were great, I was simply pointing out that there is an alternative - RISCOS machines, which can also have Linux installed on another partition, just like Intel machines.

If so perhaps you should be devoting your energies to that particular platform. I think it will have problems muscling in on the PC presence though.

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On top of that there is the issue of licencing (and administering licences) which easily adds up to 25-30% of the cost of machines. Whilst software, such as MS Office, isn't really a good choice for education because it's too complex (for the staff.)

This is where RISCOS and its software really scores. The software is designed for ease of use, for 5 year olds and upwards.

What's the cost of the software and hardware for these machines? What's the availabilty of people who are familiar with them?

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The original poster may have been confused about rewiring to a) add more sockets. b) fitting trips which will not be taken out by switched mode PSUs.

The full-time professional electrician who told me of this was in no doubt that it was the constant power drain which was overloading the circuit. The rooms had originally been wired for the much lower power consumption Acorn RiscOS machines. He was not alone in this meeting of educationalist Acorn users to emphasize this point.

Sounds like a bonus.

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Anyway there has been a RISCos style X Window manager available for over a year. There simply is no such thing as a "Linux GUI".

This is splitting hairs. This is like saying that there is no such thing as a Ford car, just a Ford Escort, a Ford Fiesta.... ------

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Point of information: I think there are about 5300 secondary schools, not 27000. And although it's hard to estimate how many are using open source, I know how many have bought a copy of SuSE Linux under the schools offer

Is this discussion aimed only at Linux in Secondary Schools, or all schools?

I probably misled people. I think the 27000 figure referred to all schools both primary and secondary.

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I am a member of an Acorn group, and it appears from listening to members from all over the country (many of whom are in education) that the Acorn gui is the one preferred by not only teachers, but by pupils also. It is backed by a community that appears to know about educational requirements. The Linux community, whilst having some very talented people, is not likely to have this background.

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Tell that to Roger!

The point being made is that there is plenty of software available on Acorn/RiscOS to teach the pupils subjects other than straight computing. (This software is also being ported to Windows machines as the Acorn/RiscOS suppliers are having to move to make ends meet). This is done in a way which involves learning about how to USE computers. I may be wrong, but I have not seen such software advertised in the Linux arena.

If it gets ported to Windows then Acorn/RiscOS is likely to be left out in the cold whatever it's advantages. `Embrace & extend' and all that.

----- Before this discussion thread goes any further, perhaps it would be better for Roger to clarify exactly what his company are aiming for (other than making a profit from Linux)? We can then discuss the pros and cons based on that.

I suggest that we need to know:

Is it to get Linux machines into secondary schools only or the full age range of 5 to 23? As servers or as educational tools for non-computing subjects? As test beds for teaching operating system principles? Any other aims?

The advantages of linux is that it has got the potential to be used for all those areas and more, given time I'm sure it will be. Primarily at the moment as you know it's being used for the top end of that age group but it will gradually work it's way down IMO. I don't know if there should be any `aim' or `goal' as such. Things such as sqwebmail look like they could be useful for schools and it would be handy for schools if they came on a schools specific distro maybe. -- Frank *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/