On Fri, 2 May 2003, Alan Davies wrote:

I'm not sure that 'free' is a good way to go here.

Administration is a mission critical area of school function. As such it can't possibly rely on goodwill of volunteers to find bugs and solve them - or to test new versions rigorously.

There is no reason why Free software need only be supported in the way you describe. In fact the support options for a Free software package are more flexible than those for a proprietary package. The latter can often only be supported by its vendor, because nobody else can get access to the source code. If a software package is Free then you have the right to use, modify, and redistribute the software, and to allow others to do that for you. That means that you can support the software yourself, or get someone else to do it for you. If the operation of a piece of (Free) software is very important to you, there is nothing to stop you paying someone to keep the software working. You are better off when shopping for support for Free software because there can be a real market in those services; multiple providers who have to compete for your custom. Proper support is like an insurance policy: you pay someone to take some of the risk that the software will break. While I'm sure that Free software is the right way to go, perhaps the project that builds that software needs to address the issue of ongoing support - a revenue cost not simply for the right to use the software, but for keeping it working. A cost that competition might keep low. Bob G

Hi All, I think that we need to step back for a moment and look at this with a longer perspective. Here are a few random thoughts.... 1. I don't think anyone is suggesting that many schools need to move to the free admin software immediately; 2. This project is opening doors for people and allowing more choice; 3. There is a good philosophical and moral arguement for paying for support - not for the coding; 4. Openess about coding and file formats has to be a good idea; 5. The users might have some good ideas about what is needed and how it should be implemented; 6. The power of modern systems and the collaborative development processes that have emerged mean it is again possible for this user supported/designed approach to produce excellent software. Don't forget that most of the commercial products out there are developed from small user designed implementations. So let's not try to stop and innovative project like this. My view is that anyone who would like to be involved in the project should do so - in whatever way they want - and other people can watch to see if it becomes something they like! ===== rgds, Richard Rothwell -------------------------------------------------------------------- GNU and Wine are rirds. Rird is recursively defined. __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 09:47:23AM +0100, Robert J Gautier wrote:

On Fri, 2 May 2003, Alan Davies wrote:

...

I'm not sure that 'free' is a good way to go here.

Administration is a mission critical area of school function. As such it can't possibly rely on goodwill of volunteers to find bugs and solve them - or to test new versions rigorously.

There is no reason why Free software need only be supported in the way you describe. In fact the support options for a Free software package are more flexible than those for a proprietary package. The latter can often only be supported by its vendor, because nobody else can get access to the source code.

If the vendor stops supporting it then you can be literally up the creek without a paddle. Even when they do provide support it's a case of "like it or lump it".

If a software package is Free then you have the right to use, modify, and redistribute the software, and to allow others to do that for you. That means that you can support the software yourself, or get someone else to do it for you. If the operation of a piece of (Free) software is very important to you, there is nothing to stop you paying someone to keep the software working.

If you are not in the software distribution business you don't even have to publish any changes you make. Of course if you arn't in the business of selling proprietary software publishing your changes dosn't cost you anything and could easily get you goodwill and/or practical suggestions.

You are better off when shopping for support for Free software because there can be a real market in those services; multiple providers who have to compete for your custom.

The thing is that with just about everything else "shopping around" is the norm. It may even be mandated by school/LEA/etc financial rules that you do this. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

Chris, What database are you planning to use for your project? regards Richard

A project has now been started to produce such a package. It is at the planning stage and has need of volunteers to help define the requirements of the system and assist with the construction of it. I am posting to this list because I am convinced that the most effective way to produce a free software application of this nature is to engage the education community in it's development from the outset.

----------------------- richard@tortoise.demon.co.uk

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 01:16:40PM -0000, MJ Ray wrote:

simon@qec.carms.sch.uk wrote:

...

Personally, when something goes wrong, i know who to point the finger at and who to contact.

You may know who to point the finger at, but proprietary software suppliers often only have to help you if they feel so inclined.

Typically their EULAs will say "you can't sue us even if it's as much use as a chocolate teapot in the middle of the Sahara".

With a free software system, you would be able to shop on the open market for support. If your LEA supported it for you, they would be able to

Interesting how they don't appear to have any issues with "supporting" proprietary software. Even if they have no clue how it actually works.

solve things themselves, or buy second (or third or further back) line support on the open market. In the transition, they can buy training for their support staff on the open market. Even if all the supporters go into a oligopoly(sp?), prices are likely to be lower than your current

Are you sure you don't mean "cartel", "oligopoly" would mean something along the lines of "a minority of many".

system's monopoly and new entrants can come into the market even then.

-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

----- Original Message ----- From: MJ Ray To: Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started

simon@qec.carms.sch.uk wrote:

...

Personally, when something goes wrong, i know who to point the finger at and who to contact.

You may know who to point the finger at, but proprietary software suppliers often only have to help you if they feel so inclined.

Or if you withhold their money! Unfortunately many of these decisions are made ultimately by bursars who like to be able to point the finger at listed companies rather than a group of like minded geeks (no insults intended). It's about accountability (pun intended). When it goes down the tubes for whatever reason, "..but we pay them £1000's for the software" has much more clout than "... yes, but it was free!" or "...every other school in the country uses it" as opposed to "but our computer whiz said that we ought to try it out" We (I) use a Linux/Squid proxy cache here. Any hiccup (lightning taking out fuses) and the whispers start "should have bought from RM". It's nice to have a scapegoat. If your going to recommend purchasing something (there are costs with any system) then it has to be the best or the perceived best. It's not the users that you have to convince; you can teach monkeys to do anything, it's those taking the flack if it goes wrong, bursars and governors. Not the most dynamic of audiences! Having said that, we do appear to be getting more IT literate/happy governors on boards as time goes by.

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 04:50:39PM +0100, Chris Duncan wrote:

Quoting "adrian.wells" :

...

Unfortunately many of these decisions are made ultimately by bursars who like to be able to point the finger at listed companies rather than a group of like minded geeks (no insults intended). It's about accountability (pun intended). When it goes down the tubes for whatever reason, "..but we pay them ?1000's for the software" has much more clout than "... yes, but it was free!" or "...every other school in the country uses it" as opposed to "but our computer whiz said that we ought to try it out"

Hopefully there would be a rigorous evaluation of ANY software that is being considered for adoption by an organisation. The fitness of the software for the purpose intended, support options and cost would all be evaluated according to their relative importance to the organisation. If a product is chosen that isn't up to the job, I would be inclined to take issue with the process. If a product is chosen on the say-so of a 'computer whiz' alone, then the parties responsible for the decision ought to be looking for alternative employment.

But is this intrinsically any worst than software being chosen because "that's what the LEA likes", even when they don't have to "eat their own dogfood"; because it's an "upgrade", this even gets applied in cases where the "upgrade" involves radical change or even because "everyone else is using it"...

I'm not sure why you suggest that because you pay 1000s for software, you would have more clout with the software vendor. Real world experience says that

Reading a few EULAs should enlighten people.

a company in a near monopoly position is not going to be too bothered by complaints if enough units continue to be sold.

...

It's not the users that you have to convince; you can teach monkeys to do anything

If your users find a computer system too difficult to use, they will simply find ways not to use it. I would contend that you DO need to convince the users in order to ensure that you gain measurable benefits from the computer system instead of paying for a system that hampers staff.

If you don't need to spend those thousands on software (and the hardware to run it) then maybe staff will appreciate whatever else can be bought with the money. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

One aspect that's of crucial importance with regard to the potential for success with a replacement for SIMS and many other aspects of IT for schools is the deeply-entrenched culture of teaching and school management. Schools tend to operate on a strictly higherarchical basis, with those whose job involves actually working with management resources (such as SIMS) and curriculum resources usually having little or no say in the choice of which resources are used. Furthermore, the idea of choosing something on the basis of its actual merits is a complete anachronism within many schools, as the basis on which these make decisions about as far from a meritocracy as you can get. Instead politics tends to rule supreme, with the quality of the education provided and the working conditions of staff lower down the school higherarchy rarely a priority consideration. Yes there are opportunities for innovation and the adoption of open source resources within schools, but a 'me too' replacement for the too well established 'SIMS' system is unlikely to be one of them. David Bowles TeacherLab / Education Support

On this idea of 'Me Too': My thoughts are that 'it' would have to integrate pretty seamlessly. http://www.capitaes.co.uk/simsdotco/products/S_net_p.asp The above link is a feature list of the Capita SIMS product and has such niceties as: 'builds on your current investment in SIMS by working on current school data' 'allows data to be imported from other MIS systems' 'is designed to enable schools to comply with the national Information Management Strategy' The whole Capita / SIMS juggernaut is not something that anyone could easily push off the road, I would have thought. Now, http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/alberto20000919.php3 is an article that says Linux and PHP could be used to interface with the current SIMS database of MS SQL (which I believe they use). This way, creating a Web based set-up that could run from any computer, Win or Lin ((Mac or Acorn (?)) could be created. In terms of skilling, human resources, change-over costs and change-over risks, the adoption of third party bolt-ons is a concept that could have a more eager uptake. This would make for manageable small projects that could be achievably produced by groups of keen teachers and also by student project too(!) - Don't know about you lot, but every year my A'level students struggle to find projects and the exam boards seem to love database interfacing as a topic. Migration could take place later, as all the bolt-ons started to form a complete package. Just my humble opinion folks. What do others think? Bruce. -----Original Message----- From: MJ Ray [mailto:markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 04 May 2003 22:39 To: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started David Bowles wrote:

Yes there are opportunities for innovation and the adoption of open source resources within schools, but a 'me too' replacement for the too well established 'SIMS' system is unlikely to be one of them.

Well, the need for a free software IMS system was one of the most oft-repeated themes that I heard from the floor at the recent conference, so I think we have to start trying. If we leave it too long, too many more places will be pressured into overpriced proprietary systems. I'm not involved in any other specific school software projects and student tracking is something that causes me trouble right now. So, my time is not being taken away from working on other education software. If you feel that some other project will benefit more from your time, go to it (and let us know what happens...) MJR -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com

On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:53:18AM +0100, Bruce Miller wrote:

On this idea of 'Me Too':

My thoughts are that 'it' would have to integrate pretty seamlessly.

http://www.capitaes.co.uk/simsdotco/products/S_net_p.asp

The above link is a feature list of the Capita SIMS product and has such niceties as:

'builds on your current investment in SIMS by working on current school data'

'allows data to be imported from other MIS systems'

'is designed to enable schools to comply with the national Information Management Strategy'

This all looks very familiar :)

The whole Capita / SIMS juggernaut is not something that anyone could easily push off the road, I would have thought.

It depends who's doing the pushing. Individual schools probably not, LEAs maybe.

Now,

http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/alberto20000919.php3

is an article that says Linux and PHP could be used to interface with the current SIMS database of MS SQL (which I believe they use).

Still requires a "No Thankyou" SQL server. Especially considering the hacks which appear to be involved in making the data backupable.

This way, creating a Web based set-up that could run from any computer, Win or Lin ((Mac or Acorn (?)) could be created.

In terms of skilling, human resources, change-over costs and change-over risks, the adoption of third party bolt-ons is a concept that could have a more eager uptake.

What's to prevent an LEA or CES themselves saying that a third party "bolt on" results in void "support"?

This would make for manageable small projects that could be achievably produced by groups of keen teachers and also by student project too(!) - Don't know about you lot, but every year my A'level students struggle to find projects and the exam boards seem to love database interfacing as a topic.

You don't intend letting your students at the real data, since there are DPA issues involved. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

<Second replies below> -----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 05 May 2003 19:02 To: Bruce Miller Cc: Suse-Linux-Uk-Schools Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:53:18AM +0100, Bruce Miller wrote:

On this idea of 'Me Too':

The whole Capita / SIMS juggernaut is not something that anyone could easily push off the road, I would have thought.

It depends who's doing the pushing. Individual schools probably not, LEAs maybe. < My experience is that it would be the LEA's who will be the hardest people to change >

Now,

http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/alberto20000919.php3

is an article that says Linux and PHP could be used to interface with the current SIMS database of MS SQL (which I believe they use).

Still requires a "No Thankyou" SQL server. Especially considering the hacks which appear to be involved in making the data backupable. < Don't know about the need to hack into MS SQL unfortunately. My meagre experience is only with PHP and MySQL which seems to work well. Disappointing if this is the case.>

This way, creating a Web based set-up that could run from any computer, Win or Lin ((Mac or Acorn (?)) could be created.

In terms of skilling, human resources, change-over costs and change-over risks, the adoption of third party bolt-ons is a concept that could have a more eager uptake.

What's to prevent an LEA or CES themselves saying that a third party "bolt on" results in void "support"? < This could possibly be a problem.>

This would make for manageable small projects that could be achievably produced by groups of keen teachers and also by student project too(!) - Don't know about you lot, but every year my A'level students struggle to find projects and the exam boards seem to love database interfacing as a topic.

You don't intend letting your students at the real data, since there are DPA issues involved. < I think I had the use of dummy files in mind on this one, and a separate SQL server> Bruce.